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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28585686 - 12/16/23 05:07 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Agreed to the first line but in the second you remove purely. That there is an underlying basis which is not rational doesn't mean there are no logical arguments that support (are based on the concept of) freedom.

I agree not to infringe on your liberty and hopefully you will agree to not infringe on mine. What we hold fair for ourselves in that regard we should hold fair for others. Another may not agree but it's no surprise when an infringement of liberty results in another infringement of liberty of some kind, official or otherwise. The basis for rights and support of rights. It's all in the mind but that doesn't mean it's not important or relevant to what's happening and what will happen.


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28585739 - 12/16/23 05:57 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

I think people justify their desires with reason, and then imagine they are motivated by the reason.

But I'm hungry. I can rationalize it, I can describe all the trillions of things happening in all the cells and say its logical, but hunger doesn't care if I agree with it or not. It isn't logical, even if my logic agrees with it. Its like if you have a million billion monkees typing away randomly, nothing they are righting comes from logic, however by chance one may right something i can agree with logically.

Where logic seems to come in is finding strategies to fulfill our desires. Like I'm hungary. Reason really helps to get food, or grow food, or store food, or even cook food or transport it etc.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28585834 - 12/16/23 06:34 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

like do your own thing, and don't mess with me doing my own thing.
The old Hippie motto!

And then there are some shared things that have their own rules.
like the road
and the right to assemble, and publicly protest about something shared, in a space that is shared.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28586026 - 12/16/23 08:14 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
I think people justify their desires with reason, and then imagine they are motivated by the reason.

But I'm hungry. I can rationalize it, I can describe all the trillions of things happening in all the cells and say its logical, but hunger doesn't care if I agree with it or not. It isn't logical, even if my logic agrees with it. Its like if you have a million billion monkees typing away randomly, nothing they are righting comes from logic, however by chance one may right something i can agree with logically.

Where logic seems to come in is finding strategies to fulfill our desires. Like I'm hungary. Reason really helps to get food, or grow food, or store food, or even cook food or transport it etc.




Fundamental questions about hunger lead to questions about the nature of reality. Outside curiosity perhaps there's no point or reason in trying to justify being hungry, but clearly there's logic in eating something to sustain one's life if that is what someone wants to do. On this I think we agree.

Pretty much everyone wants to eat and there is purpose/reason in doing so regardless of whether there is rationality in being hungry to begin with.

Yes, logic finds strategies to fill desires but it can also inform of when there might be undesirable outcomes. Who will seriously question whether it's okay for people to eat food? Contrast this with the agreeability of running people down with vehicles.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28586033 - 12/16/23 08:23 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

I think if you look at the person driving the vehicle, there will be a 'drive' similar to hunger motivating their actions, their actions being a (most likely extremely unskillful) strategy to satisfy the drive

whether or not the strategy helps them meet their needs depends on the situation.

luckily most people aren't sociopaths, so they have drives and needs that prevent extreme forms of manipulation and harm towards others


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28586102 - 12/16/23 09:29 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
luckily most people aren't sociopaths, so they have drives and needs that prevent extreme forms of manipulation and harm towards others




But there are forms of manipulation and harm toward others, which leads back to reason for enumerating rights so I'm not sure what you're point is. Rights don't exist, as if to suggest the principles/logic behind the idea of them hold no value?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28586352 - 12/17/23 05:45 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

how did rights stop existing and any social structure remain?


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28586366 - 12/17/23 05:56 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

As we've been discussing rights are mental postulations. They ebb and flow. Social structure can exist in absence of rights. Slavery comes to mind. There are still rights but only for the few.

And while it's debatable, investment firms buying up all the houses at inflated prices with the intention of renting them out in perpetuity leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28586385 - 12/17/23 06:23 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
As we've been discussing rights are mental postulations. They ebb and flow. Social structure can exist in absence of rights. Slavery comes to mind. There are still rights but only for the few.

And while it's debatable, investment firms buying up all the houses at inflated prices with the intention of renting them out in perpetuity leaves a bad taste in my mouth.



so you agree that
the erosion of rights leads to slavery
and
investment companies have no imagination (of what to do with the money) and think that they have a right to make everyone miserable by grabbing up other people's property rights.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28586400 - 12/17/23 06:38 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:

Is blocking traffic a legitimate/effective way to protest?

Does it deny a basic right to travel?




I've seen people passionately argue that blocking someone's car, so they are not able to drive, falls within the definition of kidnapping.

I'm unsure what to think about that


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28586406 - 12/17/23 06:44 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
As we've been discussing rights are mental postulations. They ebb and flow. Social structure can exist in absence of rights. Slavery comes to mind. There are still rights but only for the few.

And while it's debatable, investment firms buying up all the houses at inflated prices with the intention of renting them out in perpetuity leaves a bad taste in my mouth.



so you agree that
the erosion of rights leads to slavery
and
investment companies have no imagination (of what to do with the money) and think that they have a right to make everyone miserable by grabbing up other people's property rights.




Mostly, though I think investment companies have imagination... just not the imagination we might like them to have.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28586409 - 12/17/23 06:46 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

Rahz said:

Is blocking traffic a legitimate/effective way to protest?

Does it deny a basic right to travel?




I've seen people passionately argue that blocking someone's car, so they are not able to drive, falls within the definition of kidnapping.

I'm unsure what to think about that




I don't agree but they both fall under the definition of limiting liberty.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28586536 - 12/17/23 08:50 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
luckily most people aren't sociopaths, so they have drives and needs that prevent extreme forms of manipulation and harm towards others




But there are forms of manipulation and harm toward others, which leads back to reason for enumerating rights so I'm not sure what you're point is. Rights don't exist, as if to suggest the principles/logic behind the idea of them hold no value?





I think laws can be based on principles and logic.

A right is a fundamental entitlement for being human. I don't think I'm entitled or have the right to life, or the right to liberty, or food or medicine or anything. My life depends on everyone else through exchange. we can make agreements about exchange, but to elevate those agreements to something like a right and to imagine that this creation called a right has some kind of reality seems way off to me.

why not just use laws or agreements?


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28586567 - 12/17/23 09:15 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Some people consider some rights to be fundamental. I have not made that claim. I don't believe in God, therefore don't believe in God given rights, though I think the logic in such opinions is in line with the principles/logic of natural law.

It seems you've applied a definition that you can refute. Certainly imo, rights are things which have to be agreed upon by some critical mass of individuals, otherwise we don't have them. This is why I mentioned that your opinion on the questions I was asking would be a valid response.

That being said, I hope this clears up the semantics I used in the OP.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28586587 - 12/17/23 09:50 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

I didn't pick a defiition just to refute it. its my understanding of how the word is used. Here's an example from chatGTP:

Quote:

what is the differnce between rights and laws
ChatGPT
Rights and laws are related concepts, but they refer to different aspects of the legal and societal framework. Here's a brief explanation of the differences between rights and laws:

Nature:

Rights: Rights are inherent, fundamental entitlements or freedoms that individuals possess by virtue of being human. These rights are often considered universal and inalienable, meaning they cannot be taken away or surrendered. Examples include the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Laws: Laws, on the other hand, are rules and regulations established by a governing authority (such as a government) to regulate behavior within a society. Laws are created to maintain order, protect rights, and ensure justice.
Source:

Rights: Rights are often considered natural or human rights, derived from philosophical and ethical principles. Many countries recognize these rights in their constitutions or legal frameworks.
Laws: Laws are created by governments or legislative bodies. They are formal rules that are enforced by the government, and they can vary from one jurisdiction to another.
Enforcement:

Rights: While rights are inherent, their protection and enforcement may depend on legal systems and mechanisms. Legal systems, such as courts, may be involved in upholding and protecting individual rights.
Laws: Laws are enforced by government authorities. Violations of laws can result in legal consequences, such as fines, imprisonment, or other penalties.
Scope:

Rights: Rights are broad principles that are not always specific to particular situations or actions. They provide a general framework for human dignity and freedom.
Laws: Laws are specific rules that address particular behaviors or actions within a society. They can cover a wide range of issues, from criminal activities to contract disputes.
Change:

Rights: Rights are often seen as enduring and resistant to change. Changes to the recognition and protection of rights may involve amendments to constitutions or international agreements.
Laws: Laws can be changed through the legislative process. Legislators have the authority to create, amend, or repeal laws based on the evolving needs and values of society.
In summary, rights are inherent entitlements that individuals possess, often considered universal and inalienable, while laws are rules created by governing authorities to regulate behavior within a society. Rights provide a foundational framework, and laws serve as the specific rules and regulations that govern a community.




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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28586600 - 12/17/23 10:05 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

here's an older example of the use of the word :smile:

Quote:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men




my view is not that people have rights, but people have needs. and instead of making universal decalrations about everybody, my preference is just for people to make agreements with each other about their needs. These agreements can be anything from a head nod to a law. (old maried couples seem to be able to communicate a lot with a head nod :smile:


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28586621 - 12/17/23 10:26 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
I didn't pick a defiition just to refute it. its my understanding of how the word is used. Here's an example from chatGTP:





Perhaps not intentionally, but still selective. Let's not pretend the only potential rights are inherent God given rights or with other mystical interjection.

From Cornell "A right is a power or privilege held by the general public or someone as the result of a law, such as a constitution, statute, regulation, or judicial precedent."

From Dictionary.com "Rights are the legal or moral entitlements of people or groups to act or be treated in a certain way."

From Britannica.com "Civil rights, guarantees of equal social opportunities and equal protection under the law regardless of race, religion, or other personal characteristics."

Human rights are considered fundamental, perhaps to some because of a belief in God or other supposition, or perhaps simply because humans tend to agree they apply to everyone.

I understand ChatGPT is not the be all end all of knowledge and definition of words. Maybe don't lean on it too heavily. I hear Grok is pretty good but I would still hesitate to take it's word on anything.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28586644 - 12/17/23 10:50 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

I never claimed that my understanding of a word is the only or most correct understanding, my claim is that its sincere.





when I look at this definition of "right",

Quote:

a power or privilege held by the general public or someone as the result of a law




then a right appears to be the positive side of a restictive law. For example its against the law to murder someone, so we could possibly infer that there is a right to life. Laws against theft imply a right to ownership.


So the laws prohibiting blocking traffic may imply a right to travel without being blocked in the specific ways the law says you can't block traffic.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28586702 - 12/17/23 11:26 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Laws prohibiting murder and theft simply notify us of a potential punishment if we get caught.  It's like the road signs that say, "Speed limit enforced by radar".  That is simply untrue.  No drivers speed is enforced by radar.  I appreciate idealism, but I confess that any belief in a "guarantee" of anything when it comes to human behaviors makes me laugh.  But I appreciate the ideal and the goal.  Just like I embrace the Golden Rule.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Street protest [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28586727 - 12/17/23 11:46 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

its true, a law doesn't actually give power or privilage


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