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GenesisCorrupted
Taoist, Writer, Student, Artist




Registered: 08/01/23
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The end of war?
#28584785 - 12/16/23 02:12 AM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Edited by GenesisCorrupted (12/22/23 02:27 PM)
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GenesisCorrupted
Taoist, Writer, Student, Artist




Registered: 08/01/23
Posts: 7,183
Loc: PNW
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Quote:
CookieCrumbs said: The blade missed my heart But it was pierced anyway Bearing the weight of the world As I am steadily crushed
Men deserve more than they have Knowing that somehow They were meant for more Than this shallow existence More than flaws of system
So steal from your fellow man And make yours what was meant Violence begets violence As hate makes hate And greed feeds greed Is there no one to stop this?
I want to gouge my eyes out So I will see no more This devastation of my people I want to blow my ears out So I will hear no more The cries of criminals and victims
The Empires of man Were built with blood, sweat, and tears But not of the kings and politicians Who reign for a god they don’t know Each only demanding more of the downtrodden And it will never be enough
I cut my chest open So I feel no more This god forsaken continuum With a blade jammed in my breast
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Pinkerton wants to end war. I just wrote to a Ferdinando that the wars were bringing me down.
I think education is the way, and not by banning books, we need to conserve memory, the memory of soldiers, of victims, and the thoughts of those standing by worried and living in neutral lands.
the stories must be told, and they must be listened to, i.e. scheduled into the gardening of the little peyote pups at school. like diatamaceoous earth, speaking the bones of the dead can make living more peaceful and resilient against the warring ideas of pests.
How peacetime activity in one place relates to war in another place is very important, and it makes each of us a significant actor at least mentally.
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,127
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Pinkerton wants to end war.

And so do you.
We shall succeed.  
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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I’d love for war to end permanently but I do not think it is possible… save for the extinction of humanity.
It just seems like all things that cause war are inherent in all people to some degree, and on the scale of 8 billion people there’s bound to be break outs.
Get ten people together for Christmas and you’re bound to have some conflict… and that’s family who love each other almost unconditionally. Expand that tendency for conflict out to 8 billion people who have like 7,000 different languages, probably at least 7,000 different cultures and a seemingly infinite way of interpreting things…
I’d like to be able to, but I cannot imagine a world that is purely peaceful.
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redgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy] 1
#28585011 - 12/16/23 07:59 AM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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But all things for Peace are also natural in people.
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,127
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Quote:
Pinkerton said: Pinkerton wants to end war.

And so do you.
We shall succeed.   
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,127
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Quote:
Pinkerton said: Pinkerton wants to end war.

And so do you.
We shall succeed.   
No?
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Bardy


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Last seen: 35 minutes, 30 seconds
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: But all things for Peace are also natural in people.
Yeah… so we have peace time and war time.
It’s hard to imagine a society in which people didn’t form groups, that seems natural.
It’s difficult to imagine that those groups wouldn’t have disagreements.
It’s easy to imagine a scenario in which a young person with something to prove rises to power in one of those groups with sinister intentions and forces the other groups to either join theirs or die.
——
Has anyone here considered the yin Yang aspect of war and peace? Is it not necessary to have war in order to have peace? How can one come without the other? Are they not both opposite sides of the same coin?
Makes me sad to think that this might be true.
In order to stop these kinds of dangerous groups forming we need stronger, larger groups more capable of violence (governments, armed forces)… and these larger groups are also capable of warring on massive scales…
Maybe we need an enemy that unites the entire species?
But even then, depending on the nature of the enemy, I could see an enemy being able to divide Homo sapiens into groups which decide to war with each other… it really seems inescapable to me at this point in time.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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the first step towards war is harmony. we call it 'us' (no not perfect harmony)
the next step happens very quickly, we call it 'them'
each 'us' has been shapped by our local situation. people in deserts form a culture adapting them to deserts. For them, its good, and true and right. They live in realitive harmony. the desert keeps the culture from straying to far.
then you get arctic people, jungle people, sea city people, land city people, farming people, etc etc.
the diversity of each us creates potential for conflict. the belief in your us as true, or better, or right makes the them false, worse or wrong.
we call this dehumanization sometimes. historically we could enslave the them. the azetcs sacrifcidd them to the sun god.
If we can use culture instead of being used by culture, that is, if we can see it as a tool rather than a truth, then maybe we can be flexible enough to work together, flexible enough to see we are them.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom] 1
#28585950 - 12/16/23 07:19 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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also i really like glasl's model of conflict escalation.
Quote:
1st Level (Win–Win) Stage 1 – Tension Conflicts start with tensions, e.g. the occasional clash of opinions. This is a common occurrence and is not perceived as the start of a conflict. However, if a conflict should result the positions become more fundamental. The conflict could have deeper causes.
Stage 2 – Debate From now on the conflict parties consider strategies to convince the counterparty of their arguments. Differences of opinion lead to a dispute. The parties try to put each other under pressure and think in terms of black and white.
Stage 3 – Actions instead of words The conflict parties increase the pressure on each other in order to assert their own opinion. Discussions are broken off. No more verbal communication takes place and the conflict is increasingly exacerbated. Sympathy for "them" disappears.
2nd Level (Win–Lose) Stage 4 – Coalitions The conflict is exacerbated by the search for sympathisers for one's cause. Believing one has right on one's side, one can denounce the opponent. The issue is no longer important: one has to win the conflict so that the opponent loses.
Stage 5 – Loss of face The opponent is to be denigrated by innuendo and the like. The loss of trust is complete. Loss of face means in this sense the loss of moral credibility.
Stage 6 – Threat strategies The conflict parties try to gain absolute control by issuing threats which demonstrate their own power. One threatens, for example, with a demand (10 million euros) which is enforced by a sanction ("otherwise I′ll blow up your main building") and underlined by the potential for sanction (showing the explosive). The proportions decide the credibility of the threat.
3rd Level (Lose–Lose)
Stage 7 – Limited destruction One tries to severely damage the opponent with all the tricks at one's disposal. The opponent is no longer regarded as human. From now on, limited personal loss is seen as a gain if the damage to the opponent is greater.
Stage 8 – Total annihilation The opponent is to be annihilated by all means.
Stage 9 – Together into the abyss From this point personal annihilation is accepted in order to defeat the opponent.
glasl's path to de-escalation:
Quote:
Stage 1–3: mediation Stage 3–5: process guidance Stage 4–6: sociotherapeutic process guidance Stage 5–7: intercession, intermediation Stage 6–8: arbitration, court action Stage 7–9: forcible intervention
there's a lot more to it, thats just the outline
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28586257 - 12/17/23 01:58 AM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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meditation and drawing could reduce war like with your influence
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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I love you redgreenvines and all you others
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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I have to admit, I didn’t understand you when I first came here Ferdinando, but you’ve really grown on me. Keep on keeping on
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy] 1
#28586360 - 12/17/23 05:50 AM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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A common enemy exists. totalitarianism. the end of the rule of law must be opposed by all. representatives of this enemy are Putin, Bibi, and Trump.
our defense is enthusiastic support of democracy and law. not enforcement.
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RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
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Many Americans believe 2016-2020 was akin to Adolf Hitler's Third Reich.
United States high school and college history teachers need to do better.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: Many Americans believe 2016-2020 was akin to Adolf Hitler's Third Reich.
United States high school and college history teachers need to do better.
I think that kind of thing happens at stage 5.
Quote:
Stage 5 – Loss of face The opponent is to be denigrated by innuendo and the like. The loss of trust is complete. Loss of face means in this sense the loss of moral credibility.
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Bardy


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Quote:
redgreenvines said: A common enemy exists. totalitarianism. the end of the rule of law must be opposed by all. representatives of this enemy are Putin, Bibi, and Trump.
our defense is enthusiastic support of democracy and law. not enforcement.
Yeah, and that enemy splits the population. It has divided your nation and almost every other western nation. The common enemy isn’t seen as an enemy to nearly half the voting population in the USA. This is what I’m talking about.
Covid 19 should have also been a common enemy that united the population, but we split into groups even for that. This is my point. As a species, we do very well at splitting into groups based on nonsense and then having conflicts.
And yes, I agree that the effective defence against the rise of totalitarianism while we still have some form of democracy is to enthusiastically support democracy and law, but what do you do once democracy falls and total power is given to one egomaniacal fool? You go to war. You go to war in order to have peace.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28587034 - 12/17/23 04:15 PM (1 month, 10 days ago) |
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support democracy and law and education so that we do not cascade into versions of the tower of babel - as if September 11 had taken on a biblical scale, and half the people have no idea what the other half are saying
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Bardy


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I do. I 100% am in favour of democracy, good laws and education.
But I feel like I’m being honest by admitting there always seems to be a risk, however small, of society devolving into totalitarian regimes, and that this is where violence is needed in order to give the majority of the population their freedom back.
I hate that this negativity exists in the world, but it does, and it seems to be inherent in the species.
I don’t know, maybe we could all end up pacifists… but then it’d be easy for some anti pacifists to take over right?
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28587199 - 12/17/23 06:23 PM (1 month, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
“Today I am taking sides.
I am taking the side of Peace.
Peace, which I will not abandon even when its voice is drowned out by hurt and hatred, bitterness of loss, cries of right and wrong.
I am taking the side of Peace whose name has barely been spoken in this winnerless war.
I will hold Peace in my arms, and share my body’s breath, lest Peace be added to the body count.
I will call for de-escalation even when I want nothing more than to get even.
I will do it in the service of Peace.
I will make a clearing in the overgrown thicket of cause and effect so Peace can breathe for a minute and reach for the sky.
I will do what I must to save the life of Peace.
I will breathe through tears.
I will swallow pride.
I will bite my tongue.
I will offer love without testing for deservingness.
So don’t ask me to wave a flag today unless it is the flag of Peace.
Don’t ask me to sing an anthem unless it is a song of Peace.
Don’t ask me to take sides unless it is the side of Peace.“
— Rabbi Irwin Keller
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28587212 - 12/17/23 06:32 PM (1 month, 10 days ago) |
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Rabbi Keller sets a good model to follow
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Bardy


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Very ideal of you guys… and don’t get me wrong, I love this idea.
But everyone needs to sign up to this idea in order for it to prevail. All you need is one group that has some kind of infectious and insidious ideology for peace to be destroyed temporarily. And infectious, insidious ideologies spread amongst uneducated and educated populations alike.
All is good if you don’t take any sides and become a complete pacifist until some nazis round you up to be taken to a camp. Is your solution to Nazis just to wave your peace flag? I really hope not…
This poem is fighting a war. It’s fighting a war of ideas which it needs to win… but no one can win the war of ideas forever. The one thing that is constant in this universe is that everything changes.
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής


Registered: 12/07/19
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Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28587324 - 12/17/23 07:54 PM (1 month, 10 days ago) |
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The war of ideas ends with the love of the source of all ideas, the inner consciousness unlocked by the key of psychedelics. War ends when the consciousness of love resides in each individual more powerfully than that of holding power over other people. Not fake love. Genuine, serotonin filled, oxytocin loaded, dopamine pumped love. This can express itself just as potently with telling that old lovely woman at the dollar general how beautiful her dress is, with the geometrical patterns spilling onto the floor and moving around in neon colors lying transparent. Something about life has a light in it, but we can't often see the light. Alan Watts said "very often there goes along with it an extremely warm feeling, because you see the divine in everybody else's eyes... When Kabir was a very old man he used to look around and say "To whom shall I preach?" because he saw the beloved in all eyes."
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Bardy


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28587362 - 12/17/23 08:26 PM (1 month, 10 days ago) |
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Yeah, it ends within the individual momentarily, but it doesn’t end. Don’t forget there are new people being born and indoctrinated all the time.
There are also people that lose their love of the source of ideas because of stressors in their lives and end up down the rabbit hole of some insidious ideology.
Edited by Bardy (12/18/23 01:01 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28587849 - 12/18/23 05:09 AM (1 month, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said:... This poem is fighting a war. It’s fighting a war of ideas which it needs to win… but no one can win the war of ideas forever. The one thing that is constant in this universe is that everything changes.
exactly. so it cannot be not a win for ever, but peace is worth keeping fighting for using peaceful ideas. That is the only way to preserve peace, and when it stops, things degenerate.
this is more about the reality of change and of intelligence, both are constant but intelligence requires constant efforts (restarting and practice). i.e. what is considered as Will in the literature, something with no fixed address (i.e. not a neural process in itself at any particular location), but exhibited through actions, and cultivated by caring.
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RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28587907 - 12/18/23 05:47 AM (1 month, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said:
I agree that the effective defense against the rise of totalitarianism while we still have some form of democracy is to enthusiastically support democracy and law . . .
"Totalitarianism" is political system that prohibits all opposition parties.
Many attempt to inflame wild irrational hysteria using words such as brainwashed cult, fascists, & extremists.
This type of hysterical hatred is often disguised as compassionate caring.
We must go to war against this hysterical hatred. We must eradicate it.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
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everything is an item
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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yeah
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28588075 - 12/18/23 08:40 AM (1 month, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said: Very ideal of you guys… and don’t get me wrong, I love this idea.
But everyone needs to sign up to this idea in order for it to prevail. All you need is one group that has some kind of infectious and insidious ideology for peace to be destroyed temporarily. And infectious, insidious ideologies spread amongst uneducated and educated populations alike.
All is good if you don’t take any sides and become a complete pacifist until some nazis round you up to be taken to a camp. Is your solution to Nazis just to wave your peace flag? I really hope not…
This poem is fighting a war. It’s fighting a war of ideas which it needs to win… but no one can win the war of ideas forever. The one thing that is constant in this universe is that everything changes.
I think the poem taps into the part of us that knows we are the same. I'm not on the side of factions, nations, religions, belief systems etc, I'm on the human side
Identification With All Humanity as a Moral Concept and Psychological Construct
Quote:
Studies of those who rescued Jews during the Holocaust suggest that their most shared quality was a sense “of belonging to one human family” (Monroe, 1996, p. 205), caring deeply about human beings without regard for their race, religion, or other distinction. In this article, we first note the development of the concept of “one humanity” since the late 15th century, and then we summarize recent work with a new measure of that caring—the Identification With All Humanity Scale (IWAH). Research with the IWAH establishes that identification with all humanity is more than (a) an absence of prejudice and its sources and (b) the sum of positive qualities, such as dispositional empathy and principled moral reasoning. Many people appear to intuit that a mature moral person would identify with all humanity, even when they do not do so themselves. Finally, a brief discussion is offered of how identification with all humanity may develop or could be taught.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28588377 - 12/18/23 01:10 PM (1 month, 10 days ago) |
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same for me - human side - and earth side
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Bardy


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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
Bardy said:... This poem is fighting a war. It’s fighting a war of ideas which it needs to win… but no one can win the war of ideas forever. The one thing that is constant in this universe is that everything changes.
exactly. so it cannot be not a win for ever, but peace is worth keeping fighting for using peaceful ideas. That is the only way to preserve peace, and when it stops, things degenerate.
this is more about the reality of change and of intelligence, both are constant but intelligence requires constant efforts (restarting and practice). i.e. what is considered as Will in the literature, something with no fixed address (i.e. not a neural process in itself at any particular location), but exhibited through actions, and cultivated by caring.
Yes, but you only addressed the third paragraph of what I wrote. In the first paragraph I write that this idea needs to be signed onto by everybody in order to prevail.
Yes you can sign onto this idea of only being peaceful, but when Nazis come kicking your door down what are you going to want people to do? Just let these atrocities happen unchecked? Just let such an insidious ideology infect a whole continent and possibly the world?
Freedom, if you’re on the human side, which I am too, then what do you do with large powerful groups who want to exterminate everyone who isn’t white skinned and blue eyed? Whatever that is, it’s the opposite to the human side… No one seems to want to address this question as this is the second time I’ve asked.
Would you just let it all unfold in the name of peace? Because that’s what you all seem to be arguing for.
We don’t live in a peaceful world. We live in a world where there seems to be some kind of perverse balance between peace and war, and where force is needed as a last resort to stamp out murderous, hateful groups.
You both have said you’re on the human side. Remember that taking sides is not peaceful? You’re both all for peace, but you’re on a philosophy forum most days arguing about what is true. This is conflict in one of its most harmless forms and you can’t resist it. What happens when then stakes rise? When it’s not just an idea that’s on the line, but when it’s the life of everyone you care about and so many more innocent people? Until you honestly answer this question I don’t see the point in continuing this conversation.
And RJTubs, you’re missing my point entirely if you’re going to get stuck on an argument about propaganda. It’s a good point, but it’s got nothing to do with what I’m trying to get these guys to admit.
Edited by Bardy (12/18/23 02:56 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28588506 - 12/18/23 03:02 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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It may need signing on by others, but we can only ensure our own assent. once compelling sets in, the whole thing falls apart, like a poorly set pudding.
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής


Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 2,151
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28588671 - 12/18/23 05:02 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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It is really the power of imagination. Psychedelics are a catalyst of imagination.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Last seen: 35 minutes, 30 seconds
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: It may need signing on by others, but we can only ensure our own assent. once compelling sets in, the whole thing falls apart, like a poorly set pudding.
So you wanna sum it all up by saying that peace is a poorly set pudding?
Because deep down you know it never stays together.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28588823 - 12/18/23 06:33 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said:
Freedom, if you’re on the human side, which I am too, then what do you do with large powerful groups who want to exterminate everyone who isn’t white skinned and blue eyed? Whatever that is, it’s the opposite to the human side… No one seems to want to address this question as this is the second time I’ve asked.
Would you just let it all unfold in the name of peace? Because that’s what you all seem to be arguing for.
We don’t live in a peaceful world. We live in a world where there seems to be some kind of perverse balance between peace and war, and where force is needed as a last resort to stamp out murderous, hateful groups.
I think the urge to stamp out hateful murderous groups is what creates those groups.
Quote:
In this world Hate never yet dispelled hate. Only love dispels hate. This is the law, Ancient and inexhaustible.
Dhammapada 3-5
Quote:
Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
MLK
I share these quotes not as an appeal to authority but because I can't think of a way to say it better.
Daryl Davis may be an exemplar of bringing light to darkness:
Quote:
Bardy said: You both have said you’re on the human side. Remember that taking sides is not peaceful? You’re both all for peace, but you’re on a philosophy forum most days arguing about what is true. This is conflict in one of its most harmless forms and you can’t resist it. What happens when then stakes rise? When it’s not just an idea that’s on the line, but when it’s the life of everyone you care about and so many more innocent people? Until you honestly answer this question I don’t see the point in continuing this conversation.
Its a really big question, the broadest answer is, if it was up to mee I would do everything I could to de-escalate conflict.
A simple way to see this is the next time you find yourself in an argument with someone, give up trying to get them to see your point and just reflect back what they say, sharing how you think they feel and what valid need they have that's causing that feeling. Tell them you want to help them get that need met. those needs and feelngs are part of our universal humanity.
so its the same with isreal and palastine. Maybe isreal can temporarily win against hamas, but the thousands of civilians that have died will create another hammas. they are supporting their enemy by waging war against their enemy, and I think thats exactly what hammas wanted, thats why the did such an extreme act.
The absurdity of it is there is no such thing as israel, palestine, judaism or islam. War would not happen without the delusion of these collective identities.
Because identity isn't real, I don't think its actually that sustainable. Once you pull the rug out from under it, it starts to lose its enchantment.
There is also tremendous relief when the identity loses its grip. Once a person sees that, I think their whole life starts to change direction. You stop feeding the delusion as much, it grows weaker, which causes even less feeding. Or you see it more and more clearly and get sick and tired of it. You see what its doing and can't help but stop. It becomes obvous that they cry inside of "more more more give me more" is what causes the sense of lack, and seeing that causes its end. I think most people are driven by this insatiable need for more, and so they try to get more than their share, or cheat, lie, steal, rape. And the otherside too, the opposite of more is intolerance. People tend to be intolerent of that which threatens their identity (beliefs, values, etc etec). When you realize your identity isn't a real thing (like a rock or your body), it loses its serousness.
I think it is a tragedy of commons situation, and its possible for people to be happy with one sheep,
Edited by Freedom (12/18/23 06:35 PM)
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής


Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 2,151
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28588841 - 12/18/23 06:48 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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No, don't give up on getting your point across. That is how you get people to walk all over you. Hold your ground. Opinions can't be debated anyway, unless you're assuming your interlocutor is up for an extended dialectical, philosophical exchange. Most are not up to the task. Be good enough to be able to make your points incontrovertibly and concisely so there is no avoiding or escaping the truth concerned, otherwise there would be no conversation to begin with.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28588849 - 12/18/23 06:55 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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if the other person becomes reactive, they probably won't be able to listen anyway.
in order to re-establish communication, one person has to listen. You don't have to give up your view or your needs, you just demonstrate to the other person you can undrestand and empathize with them, see their humanity and value them. that tends to help open them up
then you're both open and influence each other. both walls go down. it can take a lot of skill, thats what Daryl Davis does I think
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28588885 - 12/18/23 07:15 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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I agree with the receptiveness part. I think the phenomenon of pillow talk can really shine some light on the subject of the dynamics of conversations, arguments, exchanges... It is all intercourse, surely you know. I have a funny, obscene joke I came up with about this. Where the straight men sit and debate, there the gay men fornicate. Perhaps it is actually literally true. I don't know. But there is some truth to it... As in... If you really want to have a discussion, this begs the question of where it is leading, but sometimes it doesn't have to. Often the conversation is the point itself, where one's thoughts are meant to come out in a different, reorganized way, which can strengthen ones own AND another's understanding of their own ideas and feelings. This is the action of simultaneous change in two people, doing it to each other willingly. If one is not open to being changed, an important psychological reality to our being, which is typically represented with feminine characteristics (e.g. receptiveness, agreeableness) but is in all people in varying degrees and proportions, then one cannot hope to learn anything from anyone, and the whole point of communication goes out the window.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28588951 - 12/18/23 07:50 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Its a really big question, the broadest answer is, if it was up to mee I would do everything I could to de-escalate conflict.
Of course, de-escalation is the top priority. But when it comes down to a machine such as Nazi Germany torturing and killing millions of people for nothing more than superficial differences do you really think you can just say to those people;
“hey guys, we’d like it if you stopped killing Jews, black people, gay people. We know you’ve already killed about 6 million, but if you stop now we’ll let that slide in the name of peace. What are your needs that are not being met which are influencing your harsh beliefs?”
Your example of being a listener to someone doesn’t seem to apply in this case. People tried to listen and give Germany what they wanted over and over again. De-escalation was seriously attempted many, many times in the lead up to World War 2, but Germany only saw this as a display of weakness. They kept asking for more, demanding more, and taking more.
I agree with everything you’re saying, but you don’t seem to be denying that violence might have to be used at some point in order to stop other violence. This is my main point, and I feel as though you and RGV have just been dodging this question.
“Hate doesn’t dispel hate” is true, but sometimes if someone is unloading punches in your face it is necessary to kick them in the balls in order to escape with your life. It totally possible to punch an attacker in the balls without knowing them or hating them. It is just a means to get them to stop bringing you harm.
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής


Registered: 12/07/19
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28589005 - 12/18/23 08:20 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Nietzsche said "madness in individuals is rare but in groups is the norm"
What you are saying is something Slavoj Zizek said about the Jungian idea of "An enemy is someone who wasn't able to tell his or her own story" something like that. I forget the exact quote. The meaning is... If someone could talk enough and understand themselves (with a psychoanalyst) then they could be changed. Zizek said 'Have we really not heard Hitler's story?'
I totally agree, but Hitler's story wasn't merely his own. It was conditioned by the tendency of people throughout history to use and manipulate each other in the most pernicious and devious ways, divided over power and the ideas that prop up their power.
Back to the point... None of this goes away just because people can be coerced and propagandized. With regard to Nazi antisemitism... Check out some of the books Martin Luther wrote... German antisemitism was already huge hundreds of years before Hitler... Martin Luther didn't recommend murdering people however. That was Hitler's "struggle." Such a 'struggle' indeed cannot be reconciled with, but the conditions that bring about people looking to a Hitler and facilitating actions from someone like that can be addressed. They start on a personal level, and it includes anyone and especially anyone with power in wealth. Even the aims of Jeffrey Dahmer and Charles Manson can be understood. Nothing is without some reason. The reason however can become mutilated, and "in nomine boni pessimi malorum," "the worst of all evils deeds are done in the name of the good." Hitler said and I quote that he was doing the handiwork of the lord. He wasn't merely a psychopathic murderer. He was a would-be conqueror. He failed. If Napoleon wouldn't have blundered, this world would be immensely better. We're suffering the consequences still of a dark age.
We should look instead at solving what actually caused that dark age, instead of looking to symptomatic treatments, like fascism, stalinism, brute communism with supreme leaders, etc.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28589009 - 12/18/23 08:23 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: It may need signing on by others, but we can only ensure our own assent. once compelling sets in, the whole thing falls apart, like a poorly set pudding.
So you wanna sum it all up by saying that peace is a poorly set pudding?
Because deep down you know it never stays together.
no that is not what i mean, when it falls apart we have to make pudding again it gels from within, not from coercion.
the kitchen has to want to keep making pudding
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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I don't expect pudding to last
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28589030 - 12/18/23 08:40 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said: Its a really big question, the broadest answer is, if it was up to mee I would do everything I could to de-escalate conflict.
Of course, de-escalation is the top priority. But when it comes down to a machine such as Nazi Germany torturing and killing millions of people for nothing more than superficial differences do you really think you can just say to those people;
“hey guys, we’d like it if you stopped killing Jews, black people, gay people. We know you’ve already killed about 6 million, but if you stop now we’ll let that slide in the name of peace. What are your needs that are not being met which are influencing your harsh beliefs?”
Your example of being a listener to someone doesn’t seem to apply in this case. People tried to listen and give Germany what they wanted over and over again. De-escalation was seriously attempted many, many times in the lead up to World War 2, but Germany only saw this as a display of weakness. They kept asking for more, demanding more, and taking more.
I agree with everything you’re saying, but you don’t seem to be denying that violence might have to be used at some point in order to stop other violence. This is my main point, and I feel as though you and RGV have just been dodging this question.
“Hate doesn’t dispel hate” is true, but sometimes if someone is unloading punches in your face it is necessary to kick them in the balls in order to escape with your life. It totally possible to punch an attacker in the balls without knowing them or hating them. It is just a means to get them to stop bringing you harm.
it might take me a bit to get back to this as life is getting busy here
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Ah okay, I see now. Thanks.
And yes, the worst evils are committed in the name of good, because that is how you get the most people to go along with it.
But in order to stop those people what do we do? RGV seems to me to think we should cultivate peace within ourselves over and over. This seems to me like maybe it is a good long term solution. To pass on a culture of peace.
The problem with this that I see is that cultures which are pacifists are ripe for the taking by a conqueror culture.
I’m not sure what Freedom thinks. I don’t believe Freedom has directly addressed this.
Are you a pacifist Freedom? Or do you think it’s okay to defend yourself using a minimal amount of force? Sorry, I’ll leave it at that for now then, give you a chance to reply.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28589144 - 12/18/23 10:08 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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sure you must standup for yourself, but this does not necessarily imply that violence is the way to do it.
an attacker can be disabled at scale, personal fitness for personal defense, country wide fitness for defense of a country.
each event is a distinct situation.
after disabling the attacker which may involve some damage, peace comes back to the fore ground.
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RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
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A masculine man has the willingness & ability to be violent - if necessary.
An emasculated man doesn't possess the willingness & ability to be violent.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: A masculine man has the willingness & ability to be violent - if necessary.
An emasculated man doesn't possess the willingness & ability to be violent.
context, context! backed into a corner, you might be surprised.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28589500 - 12/19/23 08:34 AM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said:
I agree with everything you’re saying, but you don’t seem to be denying that violence might have to be used at some point in order to stop other violence. This is my main point, and I feel as though you and RGV have just been dodging this question.
“Hate doesn’t dispel hate” is true, but sometimes if someone is unloading punches in your face it is necessary to kick them in the balls in order to escape with your life. It totally possible to punch an attacker in the balls without knowing them or hating them. It is just a means to get them to stop bringing you harm.
I realize i keep trying to see the questios and things through the lens of the op, the end of war. I think there are times violence or the threat of violence may prevent even more violence. However thats a temporary measure.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28589502 - 12/19/23 08:37 AM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Blue_Lux said: I agree with the receptiveness part. I think the phenomenon of pillow talk can really shine some light on the subject of the dynamics of conversations, arguments, exchanges... It is all intercourse, surely you know. I have a funny, obscene joke I came up with about this. Where the straight men sit and debate, there the gay men fornicate. Perhaps it is actually literally true. I don't know. But there is some truth to it... As in... If you really want to have a discussion, this begs the question of where it is leading, but sometimes it doesn't have to. Often the conversation is the point itself, where one's thoughts are meant to come out in a different, reorganized way, which can strengthen ones own AND another's understanding of their own ideas and feelings. This is the action of simultaneous change in two people, doing it to each other willingly. If one is not open to being changed, an important psychological reality to our being, which is typically represented with feminine characteristics (e.g. receptiveness, agreeableness) but is in all people in varying degrees and proportions, then one cannot hope to learn anything from anyone, and the whole point of communication goes out the window.
Yes, I actually wrote about how to influence another you have to be open to influence and then delteted it.
that joke reminds me of a poem,
Quote:
since feeling is first who pays any attention to the syntax of things will never wholly kiss you;
wholly to be a fool while Spring is in the world
my blood approves, and kisses are a better fate than wisdom lady i swear by all flowers. Don’t cry —the best gesture of my brain is less than your eyelids’ flutter which says
we are for each other: then laugh, leaning back in my arms for life’s not a paragraph
And death i think is no parenthesis
e.e. cummings
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Freedom
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy] 1
#28589510 - 12/19/23 08:45 AM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said: Ah okay, I see now. Thanks.
And yes, the worst evils are committed in the name of good, because that is how you get the most people to go along with it.
But in order to stop those people what do we do? RGV seems to me to think we should cultivate peace within ourselves over and over. This seems to me like maybe it is a good long term solution. To pass on a culture of peace.
The problem with this that I see is that cultures which are pacifists are ripe for the taking by a conqueror culture.
I’m not sure what Freedom thinks. I don’t believe Freedom has directly addressed this.
Are you a pacifist Freedom? Or do you think it’s okay to defend yourself using a minimal amount of force? Sorry, I’ll leave it at that for now then, give you a chance to reply.
I don't think its conquerrer cultures, or sociopath or evil or whatever
hitler didn't come to powere in a vacuum, and it wasn't just cause he was strong and charismatic. Treating the violence of hitlers germany with violence may have been necessary. I won't claim to know if there was another way. What I claim is that violence is a symptom. Yes lets treat the symptom in the best way possible. Maybe thats non violent reisitance. maybe thats launching artilliray rounds, or nuclear deterence.
but to end war, the cause has to be treated. I think war is dependant on national, religious or cultural identity, and as the world gets small and these identities bump into each other, I think there is a chance for the majority to realize these are inventions for us to use, not ideas to be enslaved by.
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Freedom
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: A masculine man has the willingness & ability to be violent - if necessary.
An emasculated man doesn't possess the willingness & ability to be violent.
what need is there for the idea of masculine? we can just say someone willing and able to be violent is someone willing and able to be violent.
i think masculine is just a category for psychological qualities and behaviors that a person associates with people who have testicals and facial hair etc. There are many ways of categorizing things, however there is nothing inherently true in categorization.
There is also nothing inherently true about a persons associations.
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28589529 - 12/19/23 09:07 AM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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good points +'s
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28589552 - 12/19/23 09:40 AM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said:
Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: A masculine man has the willingness & ability to be violent - if necessary.
An emasculated man doesn't possess the willingness & ability to be violent.
what need is there for the idea of masculine? we can just say someone willing and able to be violent is someone willing and able to be violent.
i think masculine is just a category for psychological qualities and behaviors that a person associates with people who have testicals and facial hair etc. There are many ways of categorizing things, however there is nothing inherently true in categorization.
There is also nothing inherently true about a persons associations.
The need comes through desires and job descriptions. Beyond that the idea arises through observation without need. As said, more typical with particular associations.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Freedom
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Rahz] 1
#28589563 - 12/19/23 09:48 AM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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I'm not following you. I don't see myself as masculine or feminine, and I have desires and have read job descriptions.
I also don't get how the idea naturally arises through observation. I have always thought, even as a child, that the ideas were absurd and did't represent anything real.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28589588 - 12/19/23 10:20 AM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Care should be taken to draw a difference between masculinity and male, feminine and female but being able and willing to dominate physically (if in the job description) is seen as a masculine quality, though more to do with muscle and inclination than harry balls. This is due to the observation that males are typically stronger (even at the same body weight).
Most people can't help but draw these associations. For me things become questionable when for instance a strong man is prone to violence or domination for vanity. I think it speaks more to maturity than masculine/feminine polarity which does complicate the issue, but not so much that it doesn't makes sense to me.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: The end of war? [Re: Rahz]
#28589679 - 12/19/23 11:36 AM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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When I think male I think anatomy/physiology. When I think masculine, I think gender. Gender being psychological traits assoicated with male or female anatomy.
I don't know what you mean by masculine
I get that there are jobs that require strenghth and men tend to be stronger, however thats a physiological thing, not psychological. well maybe a little psychological, i could see identifying as being strong making you try harder and performing better on strength test than you would otherwise...
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Bardy


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28590159 - 12/19/23 05:00 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Freedom… you say you didn’t address my question because you wanted to stay on topic but now you’re in a hole talking about masculinity
I just had an argument with the mower man about where to park my car. Dude was being very unreasonable and I felt like caving his head in with a shovel. I’d never do that of course, but these primal urges are with us to stay I think. Which is why I think that war will never permanently end.
I’m over my little head trip now, but for a little while it was quite difficult to deal with. We need to be taught how to deal with these thoughts from a young age I think, because they are the cause of pretty much all the negativity in the world.
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής


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Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28590233 - 12/19/23 05:58 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Or maybe the way people are forced to live creates what they then compensate in themselves the actual bad truth with? Living stacked on top of others creates problems? Who would've thought! ...
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28590324 - 12/19/23 07:04 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said: Freedom… you say you didn’t address my question because you wanted to stay on topic but now you’re in a hole talking about masculinity
I just had an argument with the mower man about where to park my car. Dude was being very unreasonable and I felt like caving his head in with a shovel. I’d never do that of course, but these primal urges are with us to stay I think. Which is why I think that war will never permanently end.
I’m over my little head trip now, but for a little while it was quite difficult to deal with. We need to be taught how to deal with these thoughts from a young age I think, because they are the cause of pretty much all the negativity in the world.
Its not that I was intending to stay on topic, it was I wasn't answering you cause I didn't understand you cause of how i was interpreting what you wrote based on the context
what gives me hope is that there is very little war when people have homogenous identity, and identity is delusional. I think there will come a time when we understand in mass the nature of identity.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28590447 - 12/19/23 08:16 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: When I think male I think anatomy/physiology. When I think masculine, I think gender. Gender being psychological traits assoicated with male or female anatomy.
I don't know what you mean by masculine
I get that there are jobs that require strenghth and men tend to be stronger, however thats a physiological thing, not psychological. well maybe a little psychological, i could see identifying as being strong making you try harder and performing better on strength test than you would otherwise...
I can speak toward expression of appearance and action if we're looking for physical/psychological differences and perhaps the root of the concept. Differences need to be examined closely to determine whether they might be innately typical or culturally typical and some of it doesn't seem to fit in a male/female polarity box. Almost 90% of stand up comics are men. The pay is about the same. The subject of why could produce theories which may not be as easy to relate to as man big strong.
They are contentious words but as I stated earlier the qualities that I consider to make a "real" man are also qualities that make a "real" woman. Being an adult about things rather than acting childish. For reasons that might be worth exploring, perhaps women/femininity gets conflated with childishness.
But I look for these "real man" qualities in the women I date. That being said, I don't particularly want to be adored. I want to adore and I want acceptance of adorment more than anything else.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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RJ Tubs 202



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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28590660 - 12/19/23 11:19 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said:
what need is there for the idea of masculine? we can just say someone willing and able to be violent is someone willing and able to be violent.
For most of human history, a female depended on this male trait in order to maximize the chances of survival of her offspring. The reverse is not true. A mother's parental investment in mating and rearing efforts greatly surpasses that of the male.
Females invest more in offspring production and care than males (this area of study is called “parental investment”), and they pay a significantly higher cost if the offspring dies before maturity or reaches maturity but does not reproduce. Do you agree that fatherhood is different than motherhood? That they are different and instill in children different aspects of being human and different skills and traits? And provide different types of emotional nourishment? Do you see differences in motherhood and fatherhood?
Gay people claim "love is love" and motherhood and fatherhood are the same.
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Bardy


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I’d be careful about making claims like “all gay people think” lol
You’re also talking very generally about females and males, which is okay I think, but you have to remember that what you’re saying isn’t true in all cases. I’m sure you know this… I’m probably stating the obvious.
Freedom seems to me to just be highlighting the magnitude of individual differences there can be if we aren’t talking in terms of stereotypes.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28590696 - 12/20/23 12:00 AM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Edited by GenesisCorrupted (12/20/23 10:00 AM)
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Bardy


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Yeah good point. Shouldn’t have taken the bait
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redgreenvines
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threads are not owned by individuals, please lose that attitude
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Blue_Lux
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Through the Freudian lens, the mother is really the primary caretaker, the primary emotional attachment of the infant. This doesn't actually have to be a woman. The human brain is extremely good at adapting, and the genetic teloi don't go away. Things are not so much 'instilled' as they are facilitated, just as how dogs have natural tendencies in their genetics, in all dogs, as for example a dog will always be on an every day schedule in the wild, and this is exactly what dogs crave from their owners. So you exploit this during dog training. I'm not saying humans are dogs, but we are both mammals, and we share tendencies, so the examination of dogs you know can serve as a means of comparison and reflection concerning what is really innate and what is not. Freud showed, really it was his supreme discovery, that the way people are now, and what people think is innate, the way it is actually expressed has everything to do with the way in which a person is treated from infancy, and not by whom, and this includes the psychological environment one must nagivate, just like an animal having to be aware of what it has not chosen, which is constant and persistent in their environment, such as a tree for nesting. Our environment is very mental, but these pieces of that mental environment vary. The way we go about reacting to them is however all for us already a genetic possibility - of feeling and action. It is up to us however to seek certain feelings out that for an unknown, taken-as-they-persistent reason strike us with a potency that actually gives us a homeostatic imbalance.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28591172 - 12/20/23 10:57 AM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Wrong thread. Here’s that one.
I wanted to discuss the philosophy and psychology of war. Stop derailing it.
That would have been an excellent comment if it was in the correct thread. I even agree with it. Why did you post it here?
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Blue_Lux
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because it addresses what the person said whom I replied to?
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28591217 - 12/20/23 11:22 AM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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 Don’t restart that conversation here. Go respond to them in that thread please.
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Lithop
Spaghetti Days


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Hi, am I correct in thinking this is where to come for dream interpretations?
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🌬️ 🌻 ➞➞➞ ❮❮❮❮ 🌈 ❹⑤⓿ 🌬️ 🌻 ➞➞➞ ❮❮❮❮ 🌈 ❹⑤⓿ 🌬️ 🌻 ➞➞➞ ❮❮❮❮ 🌈 ❹⑤⓿
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: What is a "real" man? [Re: Lithop] 1
#28591240 - 12/20/23 11:38 AM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Lithop
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^ nice gif. Back on topic for a second, I think what a "real man" is varies on who you ask. There are certainly some unhealthy expectations and sterotypes around this subject but a degree of dependability, knowing yourself and being open & equipped to expanding or maintaining (where applicable) your boundaries seems to be a good start to being "real"- man, woman or otherwise.
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redgreenvines
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Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said:
 Don’t restart that conversation here. Go respond to them in that thread please.
you are a visitor to the board here as we all are. you do not own the thread. I am not following his Freud comment at all, but I am following that you are being a bit too bossy.
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Lithop
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Come on, RGV- he said please. It's Christmas time afterall.
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redgreenvines
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Re: What is a "real" man? [Re: Lithop]
#28591297 - 12/20/23 12:11 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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it's still not your thread, you can have  but you can't have the thread.
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Lithop
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Aye you're right enough RGV, good point.
THE THREAD IS FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES YOURS GENNY, POLICE IT AS YOU SEE FIT BUT IN ADHERENCE TO COMMUNITY GUIDELINES
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🌬️ 🌻 ➞➞➞ ❮❮❮❮ 🌈 ❹⑤⓿ 🌬️ 🌻 ➞➞➞ ❮❮❮❮ 🌈 ❹⑤⓿ 🌬️ 🌻 ➞➞➞ ❮❮❮❮ 🌈 ❹⑤⓿
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: What is a "real" man? [Re: Lithop]
#28591313 - 12/20/23 12:20 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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He’s just grumpy because he hasn’t responded to his court summons yet.
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Lithop
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Let the record reflect: I, user 'Lithop' refuse to comment on these allegations made about or directed to user 'redgreenvines' Especially not any allegations that may include the derailing of threads- not that I in anyway condone (or condemn) derailing of threads.
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🌬️ 🌻 ➞➞➞ ❮❮❮❮ 🌈 ❹⑤⓿ 🌬️ 🌻 ➞➞➞ ❮❮❮❮ 🌈 ❹⑤⓿ 🌬️ 🌻 ➞➞➞ ❮❮❮❮ 🌈 ❹⑤⓿
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Freedom
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:
Freedom said:
what need is there for the idea of masculine? we can just say someone willing and able to be violent is someone willing and able to be violent.
For most of human history, a female depended on this male trait in order to maximize the chances of survival of her offspring. The reverse is not true. A mother's parental investment in mating and rearing efforts greatly surpasses that of the male.
Females invest more in offspring production and care than males (this area of study is called “parental investment”), and they pay a significantly higher cost if the offspring dies before maturity or reaches maturity but does not reproduce. Do you agree that fatherhood is different than motherhood? That they are different and instill in children different aspects of being human and different skills and traits? And provide different types of emotional nourishment? Do you see differences in motherhood and fatherhood?
Gay people claim "love is love" and motherhood and fatherhood are the same.
I was raised by a single mother who had to fulfill both roles. I think part of why gender seems absurd to me is that my mother embodied both so called masculine and feminine traits very well. She was tough and soft. She worked hard, was a bad ass in charge of people, and she was deeply loving etc etc
I've often that that the gender stereotypes must feel very real for people who grew up with parents who identified and lived those roles
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28591413 - 12/20/23 01:29 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Half of the motivation. The psychology of warfare is domination. To be the tyrant. You need to conquer all that is in front of you. Until there is nothing left. Only then will you no longer be able to fight. But will that end the fight? Or will you always hunger for more?
Edited by GenesisCorrupted (12/20/23 04:08 PM)
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GenesisCorrupted
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The other half of the motivation. The psychology of the victim. When you’ve been pushed too far. When they’ve taken everything from you. You have nothing left. That is when you will have every motivation to wage that war. There’s nothing left to lose. They will come at you with everything they have. Until there is no one left. Then they will have successfully defended themselves. Or have been fully conquered.
If you win this battle. Would you want to destroy the attackers chances of doing it again?
Does this de facto turn you into the tyrant?
Or are you still the victim?
Edited by GenesisCorrupted (12/20/23 04:08 PM)
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redgreenvines
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good points effective revenge is rapidly converted to oppression. I have no clue how the total smashing of cities with real war tunnels beneath them can emerge from revenge without being oppressive for the time it takes to disable the legacy of tunnel warfare. It could take 50 years to get rid of tunnels and rebuild and resettle Gaza - Maybe we need some monument to Intafada and the tunnels as well as a mandate not to repeat history? Meantime Iran pays Houthi's to blow up 3rd party ships. What else does Iran want? Monuments to the suppression of women? What will it take to make peace with something as insane as Iran.
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Nillion
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I don't think that Strauss–Howe generational theory is something I am able to take seriously, it seems pretty wonky to me.
What we call war is an activity found in numerous species, from ants to apes. Removing it from the behavior of life on this planet is impractical, but it can be minimized and at times prevented or avoided to some degree.
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Freedom
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Nillion] 2
#28591565 - 12/20/23 03:48 PM (1 month, 7 days ago) |
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I think iceland has had a pretty good track record in the past few hundred centuries
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Nillion]
#28591584 - 12/20/23 04:07 PM (1 month, 7 days ago) |
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I totally disagree. Just because ants kill each other... That looks very different than war. War is a human phenomenon, not an ant phenomenon. Just because two things look similar does not mean they are the same. Take mushrooms for example... Gymnopilus junonius can be misidentified and really be another poisonous look-alike. Two things, at first glance, may seem identical. If only that were true. It isn't so simple that human war could be reduced some inescapable thing in us that also is in ants... We are not remotely similar to ants. We are mammals. Ants are insects. Check out how bed bugs reproduce. Insect behavior is far from mammal. Similar, but not. I tried to communicate with a jumping spider. My husband and I both let it live in the blinds on the window, because there was a crack under the door (the very back door), and some flying bugs (because bugs were intense where I lived) would be attracted by the light only to be caught in the blinds during the day. The jumping spider was Plexippus paykulli, the pantropical jumper. Some insects are nice, but I digress. It does just as good to say people are absolutely going to get along because jumping spiders get along with people. It doesn't say anything about our conditions to each other. We have consciousness. This is why people say in a snide manner that someone else is an ant.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
Edited by Blue_Lux (12/20/23 04:13 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28591622 - 12/20/23 04:39 PM (1 month, 7 days ago) |
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just because two wars look similar does not mean they are the same also.
Russia attempting to annex Ukraine involves the engagement of war machinery and Israel attempting to suppress an externally financed terrorist organization also involves the engagement of war machinery.
These are different kinds of war.
But are they going to stay that way?
In both cases other nations have their opinions and roles but the matter remains local unless it spreads and becomes a world wide conflict, which has already happened a few times.
Those most oppressed want to draw others into the conflicts, but do they want to live with the outfall of foreign fealties? They want to appeal to the Moral superiority of uninvolved nations. Please interfere.
I hope it ends before it expands.
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Blue_Lux
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I'm uncertain about it. I have read about a lot of wars, and much of it is about how you rally people for war, or how it is done. There are disturbingly numerous instances throughout history of people being basically brainwashed or forced into being a soldier, so it doesn't really matter who opposes it. War exists because of aggression. This is why Freud said aggression is the greatest impediment to civilization. This is exploited with propaganda on both sides accusing the other of being the tyrant doing exactly that. In this case, Russia is actually the tyrannical case. And Iran as well. They are not going down without a fight.
Yikes.
Perhaps there is a way, but only probably the people of the future would be capable of understanding it. We will see.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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redgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28591932 - 12/20/23 08:08 PM (1 month, 7 days ago) |
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They haven't really talked about nuclear weapons in the press yet.(at the start of this year they put the doomsday clock to 90 seconds.)
So we have two carefully limited theaters that are quite devastating in a limited area, Ukraine with 5 million people displaced and Gaza with with 2.3 million people displaced. and Hostages at the center of it compounding the New refugee/homeless crisis. It's unacceptably manifest. The war is drawing so much attention away from The Supreme Court and Trump. lots of bad ideas that impersonate ideology and in the background the threat of nuclear.
We are not that close to the end of war.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
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Some people say all wars would end if women were in charge.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Rahz] 1
#28593901 - 12/22/23 10:20 AM (1 month, 6 days ago) |
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I doubt it
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Off with your head!
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Freedom
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Rahz]
#28593961 - 12/22/23 11:01 AM (1 month, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Off with your head!
Bloody Mary agrees with this notion (don't tell her its ironic)
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28593965 - 12/22/23 11:04 AM (1 month, 6 days ago) |
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I'm curious what people have to say about identity and war.
If suddenly everyone had amnesia about what an Isreal, palestine, judaism and islam are, would there still be reason for war?
and isn't it obvious these are cultural creations?
Its always seemed to me that war depends on putting your identity above other people's lives
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28594051 - 12/22/23 12:22 PM (1 month, 6 days ago) |
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Cultural yes, but your examples are all religious. Communism killed about 100 million last century. A lot of that was class warfare. The peasants rose up and killed their oppressors and now they need permission and a good social score to get through the gate.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Nillion
Nobody

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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux] 1
#28594109 - 12/22/23 01:30 PM (1 month, 6 days ago) |
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Some ants go out on raids of other hills, they attacking the adult ants of the target hill and then taking their young to raise as slaves. Sometimes those slaves later kill the young of their captors. This behavior can be found in so called Slave-making ants.
To the best of my knowledge our species is just a unique form of ape and doesn't actually exhibit unique behaviors that lack equivalency in other species. Speaking of ape warfare! I think it's easy to pretend we are something other than animals because we have developed linguistically and in terms of technological sophistication but that it is this very type of thinking that makes us so vulnerable to our animality.
I even suspect that we are remarkably simple and easy to manipulate animals in several respects and that advertisers, classic religions, politicians and media companies exploit this specifically and deliberately for profit and power. We are formulaic creatures whose lives are largely matters of habit and conditioning. For all our sophistication we really aren't that unique from my perspective of being one of us. It's just my opinion though. I could be wrong, sure.
Isn't the warrior one of the forms of the Earth as a deity? Is not every claw, fang and dagger of her in this visage so to speak? I admit that for me there is a religious component, to share the least. Still, I think it rational to observe that war-like behavior is widespread in nature, that conflict, strife and competition are as much a part of nature as agreement, kindness and cooperation are.
I'm totally against war as an idea in general from a personal perspective, but I consider it a natural thing, even sacred in certain contexts.
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redgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Nillion]
#28594121 - 12/22/23 01:40 PM (1 month, 6 days ago) |
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I regard my cell phone as a poison fang of the enemy that cannot be removed but I don't believe that strongly enough to do anything about it.
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής


Registered: 12/07/19
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Nillion]
#28594127 - 12/22/23 01:59 PM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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Ants don't make nuclear reactors
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Bardy


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux] 1
#28594171 - 12/22/23 02:48 PM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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So because they don’t have nukes we can’t say that they war? Makes no sense fella
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής


Registered: 12/07/19
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28594346 - 12/22/23 05:34 PM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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That's a straw man of what I said. We must live and navigate things that ants cannot possibly be aware of. The comparison is specious. Superficial, specious literally as speciesist. I'm not sure it can get more specious than that.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Bardy


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux] 1
#28594591 - 12/22/23 10:05 PM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28594596 - 12/22/23 10:10 PM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
Blue_Lux said: That's a straw man of what I said. We must live and navigate things that ants cannot possibly be aware of. The comparison is specious. Superficial, specious literally as speciesist. I'm not sure it can get more specious than that.
I think the point being. That the concept is still the same. It doesn’t matter if you’re an ant, a bull, or your human beings with bombs. We have an inborn tendency towards violence against each other.
The question is, how do we further separate ourselves from that tendency. And stop waging war with each other once and for all.
Or is it a futile effort?
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Bardy


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It’s futile for sure…
When this thought pops into my head I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28594612 - 12/22/23 10:40 PM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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I try to think of it as a philosophical problem. To be solved. Because I won’t accept that it’s inevitable.
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redgreenvines
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It's the Borg
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Bardy


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The Borg? Lol
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Blue_Lux
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Writing war as an 'inborn tendency' does more to confuse war than demonstrate anything about it.
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy] 1
#28594778 - 12/23/23 05:28 AM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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It isn't futile. We're just not there yet. Look at the events of the past few hundred years. We're pulling ourselves out of the deep pit some people. Put us in really 1700 years ago with constant additions for a solid 1500 years. The Renaissance came, then the enlightenment... Then people went backwards again, and now we're on the up again. I hope it is only ~100 years from now that we will be out of the darkness but maybe not. War isn't inevitable. Every war has a purpose. It isn't some abstract thing that just happens to people one day out of the blue.
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Bardy


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28594795 - 12/23/23 05:49 AM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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I think you’ll find war has been happening as long as humans have existed in some form or another.
We’re becoming more capable of doing things on massive scales, including war.
Once we warred between small tribes on the scale of a small state, now we war globally. Not much has changed other than our capacity.
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redgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy] 1
#28594806 - 12/23/23 05:57 AM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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in direct proportion to our biomass, or is that humass?
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28594816 - 12/23/23 06:04 AM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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There is no ethos whatsoever in what you just wrote
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28594818 - 12/23/23 06:06 AM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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& I think you'll find that humans are capable of much more. I find your insistence on the continuation of our lowest tendencies (that do not exist in a vacuum) utterly appalling.
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Bardy


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28594821 - 12/23/23 06:08 AM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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Not sure what you mean by that.
I had to look up what ethos meant, and it says “the characteristic spirit of a culture”.
Not sure why that applies to statements about how humans have always been at war with one another.
Aren’t you engaging me in a form of warfare right now? Lol
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28594827 - 12/23/23 06:10 AM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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Aren't you a sarcastic schmuck?
Not sure why... Oh then again I am
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Bardy


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy] 1
#28594828 - 12/23/23 06:11 AM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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I know humans are capable of loving and of making peace. Not denying that. I’m just saying that those traits are accompanied by a tendency to war
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Bardy


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28594833 - 12/23/23 06:13 AM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
Blue_Lux said: Aren't you a sarcastic schmuck?
Not sure why... Oh then again I am
There was no sarcasm in my comment.
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28594841 - 12/23/23 06:22 AM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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K
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Bardy


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux] 1
#28594875 - 12/23/23 06:48 AM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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O
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28594888 - 12/23/23 06:59 AM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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Ignore listed
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Bardy


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28594990 - 12/23/23 08:05 AM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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Geez that was easy
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Bardy


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Quote:
redgreenvines said: in direct proportion to our biomass, or is that humass?
Maybe, haven’t crunched the numbers lol. Humass seems like a nice dip
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redgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28595062 - 12/23/23 09:10 AM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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OK, maybe not a linear proportion, but some kind of chain reaction that we constantly must defuse. as when someone apparently shakes their butt (it could be imagined), and you are not in the mood to engage.
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy] 1
#28595206 - 12/23/23 12:22 PM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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Slavery used to be as ubiquitous as war
i think its possible that some things may be seen as temporary artifacts that emerged through history
like say tribal people had much more limited means of understanding other tribes.
for example we know have ideas like mythologies as sympbolic, or comparitive religion, or academic studies of politics or all sorts of new ways of looking at and thinking about each other.
While we might say this hasn't changed anything, i think it did with slavery. child labor. womens right to vote. We don't know the long term consequences. The industrial revolution was only 200 years ago. we still have our roots in seperate cultural streams that are running into each other .
I don't think we can say the streams running into each other have found equalibrium.
we have also started to depart from environmental limitations. culture has always been bound by our need to survive. now that we are creating environments our culture can expand in all sorts of directions, so the streams are going through an ammount of diversification never seen before
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redgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28595242 - 12/23/23 12:50 PM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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slavery and war are all about taking someone else's resources (including relative freedom) and not giving it back or paying a fair price. It's like a broken down exchange, one-sided. Oddly taking something and not paying is like getting it free, and being taken slave is like the loss of freedom, again a one-sided concept. Maybe the idea of free has to blow away, nothing is really free, things are only relatively un-constrained when working well in some environmental niche with a good give and take going on.
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GenesisCorrupted
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War is not ways about taking peoples resources. There are two driving factors of war. The need for change. The need to conquer. People that live in a fascist dictatorship. Might wage a war against their government. That doesn’t mean they did it to conquer the government. They did it because they needed the government to change, and it wouldn’t do it, unless being forced to.
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Freedom
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: slavery and war are all about taking someone else's resources (including relative freedom) and not giving it back or paying a fair price. It's like a broken down exchange, one-sided. Oddly taking something and not paying is like getting it free, and being taken slave is like the loss of freedom, again a one-sided concept. Maybe the idea of free has to blow away, nothing is really free, things are only relatively un-constrained when working well in some environmental niche with a good give and take going on.
one way i think of freedom is to imagine that everything is infinite (which it may be)
within the infinte are infinite numbers of limited appearances. infinite varieties of limitation, including complete unboundedness, make up the unlimited
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redgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom] 1
#28595307 - 12/23/23 01:32 PM (1 month, 5 days ago) |
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Absolutes are unreal.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: Absolutes are unreal.
I absolutely disagree.
An absolute just means there is no room for disagreement. A fact is proven. It makes it absolutely true.
Edited by GenesisCorrupted (12/23/23 02:01 PM)
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redgreenvines
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So Russia is not taking lives and territory from Ukraine? Instead you postulate a primal drive or need? That only makes sense as a get out of jail card for the guilty who aggress without fair reasons.
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GenesisCorrupted
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I just disagreed with your statement that absolutes are not real. Because it’s not true. I didn’t say any of those other things.
Russia is attempting to take Ukraine. That is the behavior of the tyrant. The people hiding in the forests of Burma. Are fighting against their government that was ousted by a military junta. Those two things have completely different motivations. We can agree on that can’t we?
Edited by GenesisCorrupted (12/23/23 02:01 PM)
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redgreenvines
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to some extent we can agree on those descriptions, but I think you were trying to point out a root cause of war being "The need for change & The need to conquer"; while I am proposing that the roots of war are about taking liberty with what is not yours (land/resources/rights), or taking liberty directly from someone else (AKA enslavement). (the same roots for nearly all crime)
The people hiding in the forests of Burma have had their rights removed, and the Burmese Regime is taking their land, freedom, and resources for themselves.
I don't deny that Putin is a tyrant, a criminal who is two steps beyond the reach of the law, a man who is accustomed to taking more than his share in all things, for free if possible. But his tyrannic behavior is not the cause of war, it is an aspect of his modus operandum which is to take without paying a fair price even if the thing taken is not for sale.
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Blue_Lux
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Agreed
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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redgreenvines
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Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: Absolutes are unreal.
.. I absolutely disagree.
An absolute just means there is no room for disagreement. A fact is proven. It makes it absolutely true.
One never achieves absolute Zero, and one never measures infinity, absolutes provide a direction towards which things can progress or move away from, but they are never attainable so I call it unreal.
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Blue_Lux
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I think the absolute is another person, because it is the only thing simultaneously changing and impossible to make into a thing in itself. Our understanding of something actually unchanging is based on agreement, even in science, hence peer review. Pets perhaps. The supreme absolute is agreement itself. It is inexplicable all agreements have not happened merely by necessity but surely happen and are from conscious choice.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Blue_Lux
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But furthermore about that. I think language itself to another is de facto agreement. It is the agreement for others' thoughts to affect your own. This is where two may get tangled up in a bad way. It takes two to tango. It is when after the agreement there is something that renders the previous agreement, and not just that but the attitude and affect of agreement, flawed or faulty and in need of remedy, because they are perturbing. The agreement is a mutual state of awareness concerning something. It is not in words itself, and it is not by virtue of words. Words are governed by perceptions that are aimed to be grasped entirely beyond the words that are used to communicate them.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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redgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28595476 - 12/23/23 04:22 PM (1 month, 4 days ago) |
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I guess people do come here to see how their minds work while under the influence. so you are absolutely right
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Freedom
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: Absolutes are unreal.
Does this refer to something in this thread?
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redgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom] 1
#28596295 - 12/24/23 08:06 AM (1 month, 4 days ago) |
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absolutely
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redgreenvines
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In this odd video https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1Ps-0mrwwV/
Quote:
During the wet season, ants seek refuge within sections of termite nests, where they may prey on termite workers.
This interaction is mutually beneficial: the ants gain shelter and a food source, while the termites receive valuable nitrogen-rich nutrients from the ants' waste and enhanced defense for their nest. This symbiotic relationship positions them as allies in their shared environment.
However note the separation of the species and the use of soldier to maintain division
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Blue_Lux
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I don't remember who said that war was just unavoidable and natural for the human species, but this cuts directly to heart of that argument: Nietzsche said beautifully that everything we are is AGAINST nature; everything to do is AGAINST what conditions are placed upon us, otherwise we die, remain unhappy, hungry, etc. Etc. There are things about us that are coherently 'natural,' as in necessarily happening, but it is up to us to use our faculty of reasoning NOT to ratify something natural and therefore justify it to ourselves but to understand as much as we can to be able to make coherent judgments about our own choices, and thus make educated choices guesses or aims. One can bring up homosexuality often for a great analogy in many places. Here is one. It is not so much about the naturality of homosexuality that makes it understood and agreeable but exactly the consciousness about what it entails, which is precisely against nature for the very same reason we are conscious and not mere automata, which any seriously deterministic system cannot account for - only in mystified ways and or with leaps of logic and lofty premises. Homosexuality is as natural as ingesting a complicated pharmaceutical drug for a disease. The word natural however becomes topsy turvy in this, and this is exactly because of our subconscious reflection that our own consciousness and freedom, and what that means emotionally (as we in action physically change our own brains and bodies, and processing of reality). We know that consciousness is natural, but it cannot be accounted for by the system of reasoning that has produced its articulation to begin with. I would argue, and some others would, albeit differently, like Douglas Hofstadter, that Godel's theorem is indicating something like this, which is concerned with logic in the strict sense. Any serious logician knows many of the arguments of Aristotle to be mathematically sound. This is how logic is determined from opinion. It is through a constant mediation that anything we do is ever recognized. This mediation is the application of words, concepts and ideas in place of what is a radical reality that necessitates us to make sense of it. When we make sense of our own phenomena, we may look to similarities, but we must identify our own, social, historical predicament, regardless of the question of whether it is natural, as if it will somehow change how things really feel or are for us. We cannot ever hope to write the laws of nature, as Nietzsche said, "to dictate to nature herself her own laws is self-tyranny."
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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redgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28596795 - 12/24/23 04:41 PM (1 month, 3 days ago) |
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dictating is for dictators
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Pinkerton
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Benevolent.
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Alexander the Great. Great, or blood thirsty war monger? Great blood thirsty war monger?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Bardy


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28596878 - 12/24/23 05:57 PM (1 month, 3 days ago) |
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So it seems to me Blue Lux is trying to say that eating is against nature, and “going hungry and unhappy” would somehow be going along with nature. This makes no sense to me whatsoever.
We are a part of nature and will never be able to separate ourselves from it.
It is illogical to think that anything we do is “against nature”. We evolved as a part of nature. We are not separate from it. This style of thinking that somehow the things we do are beyond the natural is just totally confused in my opinion.
Why does this “going hungry” and never manipulating your environment in order to be a part of nature not apply to a bear or a tree? Trees pull water from the ground and change CO2 to O2 in the process of creating sugars, is that against nature too? They’re manipulating the atmosphere.
That’s ridiculous.
Homosexuality, heterosexuality, drug taking, surgery, and fighting are as natural as any other thing in existence. Nature is everything. It is a great mistake for people to use that word in an attempt to separate themselves from their maker.
This is not to say that just because something is natural, it is morally good. Our concept of morals is also a natural phenomenon, and it is good for the survival of our species that we consider killing others as morally bankrupt in most cases, but there are exceptions, and this is a massive grey area which can give rise to wars.
(Blue Lux won’t see this because he got cranky and ignored me. The exact kind of behaviour which distances you from the people you disagree with and probably helps to start wars. How ironic).
Edited by Bardy (12/24/23 05:58 PM)
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28596888 - 12/24/23 06:07 PM (1 month, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Blue Lux is trying to say that eating is against nature, and “going hungry and unhappy” would somehow be going along with nature.
Allow me to clarify... When we do something 'against' nature, I meant when we build a house to keep us warm, that we eat because we feel hunger. We eat against the nature of hunger. None of this is inconsistent with what I said. Nature consistently wishes to kill us, metaphorically. Realistically, we have to navigate a world that can amount to our deaths, and the point is not to write things off to unconsciousness but to reveal truth in the sense of the ancient Greek aletheia, uncoveredness, nakedness. We live AGAINST conditions in which we could perish, AGAINST prohibitions or boundaries placed upon us whether by our own conditions, others or nature itself.
Quote:
Homosexuality, heterosexuality, drug taking, surgery, and fighting are as natural as any other thing in existence. Nature is everything. It is a great mistake for people to use that word in an attempt to separate themselves from their maker.
It is exactly the sort of consideration of the concept of nature that leads one to mistake the productions of consciousness and humanity as concomitant with a determinism of nature that, as you say, "we are a part of," namely that we are contained in some system beyond us. I am saying we are instantiations of nature and arbiters of it as such, not representations of it or something subsidiary to it, which is beyond us and somehow dictating to us its laws, as we have failed to do it.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28596896 - 12/24/23 06:10 PM (1 month, 3 days ago) |
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We live in spite of nature, not in unison with it. The people of Pompeii found that out the hard way, and Pliny the Elder gave his own life to see something so sublime and meaningful.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Freedom
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux] 2
#28597022 - 12/24/23 08:00 PM (1 month, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
"All who are not lunatics are agreed about certain things. That it is better to be alive than dead, better to be adequately fed than starved, better to be free than a slave. Many people desire those things only for themselves and their friends; they are quite content that their enemies should suffer. These people can only be refuted by science: Humankind has become so much one family that we cannot ensure our own prosperity except by ensuring that of everyone else. If you wish to be happy yourself, you must resign yourself to seeing others also happy."
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redgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28597076 - 12/24/23 08:43 PM (1 month, 3 days ago) |
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All who are not lunatics but what about the rest of us, hahaha....
I think the lunatics would agree on the few points listed, they may just agree differently.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Rahz]
#28597280 - 12/25/23 01:31 AM (1 month, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Alexander the Great. Great, or blood thirsty war monger? Great blood thirsty war monger?
when Alexander saw the breadth of his domain he wept, for there were no more worlds to conquer."
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GenesisCorrupted
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What gesture would be grand enough that the world would realize we’re all just humans? I feel like if everyone agreed to not use nuclear weapons. Too slowly and safely just dismantle them over time together. That would be a huge step in the right direction to achieving world peace.
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CreonAntigone
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That until the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned; That until there are no longer first-class and second-class citizens of any nation; That until the color of a man's skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes; That until the basic human rights are equally guaranteed to all without regard to race; That until that day, the dream of lasting peace and world citizenship and the rule of international morality will remain but a fleeting illusion, to be pursued but never attained; And until the ignoble and unhappy regimes that hold our brothers in Angola, in Mozambique and in South Africa in subhuman bondage have been toppled and destroyed; Until bigotry and prejudice and malicious and inhuman self-interest have been replaced by understanding and tolerance and good-will; Until all Africans stand and speak as free beings, equal in the eyes of all men, as they are in the eyes of Heaven; Until that day, the African continent will not know peace. We Africans will fight, if necessary, and we know that we shall win, as we are confident in the victory of good over evil. – Haile Selassie I
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Blue_Lux
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Agreeed
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Bardy


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28597331 - 12/25/23 06:19 AM (1 month, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Blue_Lux said: We live in spite of nature, not in unison with it. The people of Pompeii found that out the hard way, and Pliny the Elder gave his own life to see something so sublime and meaningful.
I don’t think I agree with your definition of nature if you’re separating it from humankind.
At what point would you say we separated from nature? If you can’t define a specific point then doesn’t it follow that we are part of the pattern of nature?
Just because we destroy certain habitats to build places to live in does not mean we live separately or that we live in spite of it. We are a part of it in every way. We rely on it because we’re a part of it.
Most animals manipulate or affect their environments in some way, we just take it to the extreme, but that doesn’t mean that any animal (including us) is not a part of nature. If a bear is one with nature then we are just as one with nature as that bear.
We can say that we’re changing our environment in ways which will impact us and other beings negatively in the future I think, but to say that we go against nature in any way just seems like a confused statement to me.
To say we go against the nature of hunger when we eat is especially confused I think, because the nature of hunger is to motivate us to eat. They’re both part of a cycle, which is part of how an organism survives to reproduce itself. A pattern that repeats and mutates just like every other pattern that exists in nature. Same goes for death. Nature doesn’t have a will. It isn’t “trying to kill us”. We are part of nature and death is a part of life, it’s all the same thing. We aren’t going against nature by surviving. Survival is part of nature, and so is death.
Suicide is an example of a natural phenomenon that one might be tempted to say “goes against nature”, but it is committed by multiple animal species that are part of nature, so how could one possibly argue it is against nature? Maybe nature is just a heck of a lot more complicated than some believe it is?
This is how I think on the topic. I think Nietzsche was all muddled up in the head when he came up with that one.
Edited by Bardy (12/25/23 06:32 AM)
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Quote:
CreonAntigone said: That until the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned; That until there are no longer first-class and second-class citizens of any nation; That until the color of a man's skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes; That until the basic human rights are equally guaranteed to all without regard to race; That until that day, the dream of lasting peace and world citizenship and the rule of international morality will remain but a fleeting illusion, to be pursued but never attained; And until the ignoble and unhappy regimes that hold our brothers in Angola, in Mozambique and in South Africa in subhuman bondage have been toppled and destroyed; Until bigotry and prejudice and malicious and inhuman self-interest have been replaced by understanding and tolerance and good-will; Until all Africans stand and speak as free beings, equal in the eyes of all men, as they are in the eyes of Heaven; Until that day, the African continent will not know peace. We Africans will fight, if necessary, and we know that we shall win, as we are confident in the victory of good over evil. – Haile Selassie I
Those are all really nice things to wish for.
Another big one is nationalism.
But even the fact that you’re calling the people of your continent “African” could be cause for divide. Different places have different names, cultures and so on, and people attach the idea of their identity to these place names which can cause them to think of themselves as separate to another group of people.
Until the possibility of this willingness to think of ourselves as separate beings is somehow completely done away with from the entire human gene pool (or meme pool) forever then there will always exist the possibility of humans dividing themselves into groups and conflicting.
Edited by Bardy (12/25/23 06:36 AM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28597371 - 12/25/23 07:43 AM (1 month, 3 days ago) |
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I think that the issue of nations and races is superficial, that it is more of a cognitive issue. E.G. that we are encouraged to perceive things as members of categories, and that the studious among us produce lists of categories, indeed we have species, genus, family, order, class, phylum, kingdom, domain. Thus species are grouped within genera, genera are grouped within families, families are grouped within orders, and so on.
I believe that the finest of distinctions and classification in such accordance is brilliant, however, unlike the performance of orchestral music, or the synchronous differentiation and embryonic growth of the foetus, the focus on separate entities vs. concertive behaviors in ecologies, and during developmental formation, easily guides us towards arbitrary exclusions by recognized types in what would otherwise be dynamic social discourse, growth, and action.
Instead of noticing how bouquets of flowers work together, the approach is to follow the recipe, and everything must be at the same degree of freshness, like fruit in a supermarket.
Don't get me wrong, I love supermarkets, and have been making them into family gathering places since years before the beginning of COVID.
The idea of supermarkets also underscores the emphasis in society on consumption, and product quality, and availability, which are the same core concepts that we wrap people into. Whether to buy, consume, ignore, recycle, or destroy.
But the cognitive issue which is not so obvious, is that we are more into identifying things as of a type first, rather than appreciating the concertiveness of all things in experience moment to moment, and that such a wider view makes it obvious that there are way more categories than can be named or that could have members spontaneously attributed to them.
Which is to say that we (even the most scholastic of us) work with categorization and identification that is very limiting. We reward the good categorizers more than we reward the good artistic synthesists (whom we turn into bizarre scholastic drones - have your read those artist statements! phew!), therefore we are more apt to identify and reject enemies, even when that is not exactly the case.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28597374 - 12/25/23 07:51 AM (1 month, 3 days ago) |
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One base definition of natural is that which is untouched by humans, i.e. happens without human involvement.
It is not an arbitrary definition.
The issue is that if we include humans in what is natural the word no longer has meaning, except via the whims of opinion and would be entirely arbitrary.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Bardy


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Rahz]
#28597721 - 12/25/23 04:16 PM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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I agree it would lose its original meaning then, I just always thought nature was the entire biosphere. I’ve heard other people say things like “Man is nature”.
You could argue nothing is untouched by humans through the use of chaos theory. 8 billion of us on the planet today all breathing out carbon dioxide that goes into the plants and re-enters the food chain as sugars and proteins. All of the water in our urine re-enters the cycle of rain eventually.
When I really think about how interconnected everything is, a word such as natural (with the traditional definition) seems like a bit of a useless word and more of a hindrance than a help because it allows one to think of themselves as truly separate; which is unhealthy for the individual person and in the end unhealthy for the environment (as well as being completely false).
Anyway, I see your point.
Nietzsche’s statement still makes no sense to me. If nature is only that which is untouched by man then how can we say things like “the nature of man’s hunger”? If man’s hunger is untouched by man then isn’t everything man does untouched by man in the sense that we didn’t choose to be born? My birth was untouched (not manipulated) by me, so how is anything that follows from that not just a cascade of events set in motion by all that came before?
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Bardy


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So what I take from this is that you’re saying:
- It’s good to categorise things in helpful ways - but we then have tendencies to categorise things that we shouldn’t categorise for the sake of peace.
Have I got that right?
I know it’s extremely useful to categorise things, take poisonous mushrooms for an example. But when it comes to other people I’m not so sure categorising is the best approach.
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28597826 - 12/25/23 06:12 PM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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Yea, I think there's nothing definitive that makes humans fundamentally not natural.
One might suggest nuclear bombs for instance and I could just go straight to "nuclear bombs are a potential of nature/existence".
But I do like to be out in nature which I think can be reasonably understood. Volcanoes are natural. H-bombs are not natural.
It's a categorization. But also not fundamentally an indicator of quality. Something being not natural doesn't mean it's not okay and just because something's natural doesn't mean it's okay.
Is war natural? Why does it matter? Is X natural? Why does it matter?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28597827 - 12/25/23 06:14 PM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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That's sort of related to why Sartre said he chose his own birth.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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redgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Rahz]
#28597832 - 12/25/23 06:19 PM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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nature includes everything including the patently unnatural such as the a-bomb, quarks and emc2, all of the stars, and the blue sea angel too.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Rahz]
#28597848 - 12/25/23 06:29 PM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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It’s just the cascade of damage keeps getting higher and higher. The potential of destruction gets bigger every time. We can’t afford to keep repeating. We need to break free of the chain and move forward to a point where we don’t need to do it anymore. Because our weapons are getting so much more powerful.
That’s why it matters. That’s why we need to change.
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Rahz]
#28597855 - 12/25/23 06:32 PM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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How about the words on this screen? Is this 'natural'? Depending on the lens, the perspective, that is the episteme it may be natural or unnatural. There is another episteme, and this is what leads Nietzsche to ubermensch.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
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Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: It’s just the cascade of damage keeps getting higher and higher. The potential of destruction gets bigger every time. We can’t afford to keep repeating. We need to break free of the chain and move forward to a point where we don’t need to do it anymore. Because our weapons are getting so much more powerful.
That’s why it matters. That’s why we need to change.
Perhaps but don't we need to change to avoid your postulate, regardless of whether it's natural or not?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Bardy


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Rahz]
#28597964 - 12/25/23 08:27 PM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Volcanoes are natural. H-bombs are not natural.
It's a categorization. But also not fundamentally an indicator of quality. Something being not natural doesn't mean it's not okay and just because something's natural doesn't mean it's okay.
Is war natural? Why does it matter? Is X natural? Why does it matter?
I agree that it doesn’t matter what is considered natural and what isn’t. It’s all part of a whole we call the universe.
What’s right and wrong matters, but what’s natural and what’s not does not matter, because in my books everything is natural.
If you say that H-bombs aren’t natural then I think you also have to say that a fire started by man or any other animal is not natural. Fire started by an animal is just a conscious part of nature harnessing another part of nature. Likewise the Hydrogen bomb is just some apes harnessing the power of nuclear fusion, which is a natural phenomenon of stars.
This kind of reasoning is why I don’t think it’s logical to exclude anything from the word natural lol. In my mind nature is synonymous with the workings of the universe. Anyway… I don’t mean to get stuck on what’s natural and what’s not, I’m just trying to make a point 😅
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Bardy


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28597969 - 12/25/23 08:33 PM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Blue_Lux said: How about the words on this screen? Is this 'natural'? Depending on the lens, the perspective, that is the episteme it may be natural or unnatural. There is another episteme, and this is what leads Nietzsche to ubermensch.
The words on the screen are made of light, which is emitted from materials we sourced from rocks, powered by the sun.
Anything you wish to call unnatural is just a complex collection or pattern of natural items arranged by an animal which inhabits the planet Earth. It’s all natural.
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28597976 - 12/25/23 08:40 PM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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That's just reiterating without qualification.
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy] 1
#28597977 - 12/25/23 08:40 PM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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Blabbing isn't thinking.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Bardy


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Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: It’s just the cascade of damage keeps getting higher and higher. The potential of destruction gets bigger every time. We can’t afford to keep repeating. We need to break free of the chain and move forward to a point where we don’t need to do it anymore. Because our weapons are getting so much more powerful.
That’s why it matters. That’s why we need to change.
Better technology, bigger bombs, more potential for damage.
Marry this to the fact that we’re basically just cave men walking around with smart phones and it gets scary.
The human race will go extinct one day, somehow or another. And we’re probably all going to die before that happens. Best to live it up as kindly and gratefully as we can while we’ve got the opportunity. All we can do is try not to bring harm to others ourselves.
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Bardy


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28597984 - 12/25/23 08:46 PM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Blue_Lux said: Blabbing isn't thinking.
I seem to recall you writing some pretty hefty chunks of text, sometimes multiple posts in a row going off on tangents and what not. You do that quite often actually.
I agree that I was reiterating because I thought you missed the point. Maybe I missed your point because I don’t know the meaning of the word episteme.
I’m assuming episteme probably means truth or something?
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy] 1
#28597988 - 12/25/23 08:48 PM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28598004 - 12/25/23 09:01 PM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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Cur ignorare dissimulas?
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28598015 - 12/25/23 09:09 PM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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That’s just a defeatist approach. You’ve already given up you aren’t going to try. We all need to try to make things better together.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28598019 - 12/25/23 09:13 PM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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By not voting. Or not trying to talk about these things with people. Just living our lives for ourselves. We’re just going to let these decisions be made around us without having anything to say about it. If enough people make a ruckus. someone will hear. That’s how we change things for the better. We don’t do it by just giving up and trying to enjoy every day like it’s our last.
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28598028 - 12/25/23 09:22 PM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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Quale est maius est quam quid est. How it is is more important than what it is. Animus genus non habeat. Mind has no genus. Nihil iam quidvis significet. Nothing already means anything. The words on the screen are not merely light. They are many things. But no number of re-characterizations pertaining to 'what' it is will ever say anything more to us about how it really is. How color is is not a question of what it is. It is how redness is. How something is is actually what we ever refer to. When we aim for recharacterizations, we look to... our perception again pertaining to variables we have agreed to make constant, namely facts. But we constantly elude doing this to ourselves, because in the very moment you go to define yourself, you go beyond that definition. This thing that constantly eludes is what is against nature.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28598057 - 12/25/23 09:39 PM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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You can't ever hope to run fast enough to catch yourself from behind. You cannot hope consciousness to be ouroboric so to loop back on itself. This is the illusion of a Newtonian mechanical universe of cogs and gears, like everything is some self sustaining engine. There is something in the midst that throws all this off, and I would say it is exactly the experiential element, the phenomenality of reality. Truth is in movement, change, fluidity. Reality is not really the segments of pieces of it we abstract from it. None of these pieces could ever be added up to give us reality. We know reality as it eludes adequate characterization. This is why something can bring you to a loss of words, to speechlessness.
Quote:
Verba volant, scripta manent. words fly away, written ones remain
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Bardy


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28598194 - 12/26/23 01:10 AM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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Yeah, I agree the words on the screen aren’t just light. I was only trying to boil it down to a really simple statement in order to get my point across about how it is natural if you look at it a certain way. If you extend the definition of the word natural to include the human species.
That’s how I try to communicate. I want to use simplified language and short statements to make points so that there are less language barriers, and also so I don’t have to write 10,000 words describing exactly what the words on the screen are made from (not that I even know).
I feel like we’re just going way off topic here so I might just call it here. I’ve said all I want to say.
And GC, I don’t think admitting that humans will go extinct is a defeatist attitude. I think it’s realistic. Do you really think that humans have a chance at being around forever? To me that is a pretty crazy statement… we have asteroids, wars, black holes, super novas, the death of our sun, possible space travel that goes wrong somehow, and then there’s the heat death of the universe to contend with. Nothing lasts forever.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28598196 - 12/26/23 01:13 AM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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I think we have a chance of surviving for a really long time if we go into space. We need to be able to survive on the planet long enough for that to become feasible.
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Bardy


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I’m definitely in favour of trying to survive as long as possible, but I think we can also accept our inevitable demise at the same time 😊
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redgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28598281 - 12/26/23 05:43 AM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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I think spiders have a good chance of taking the helm of the planet when we are no longer here as "captains" or custodians of the earth.
I was delighted to hear that the trap door spider can live as long as us. They appreciate engineering. Other animal engineers are among insects molluscs, mammals and birds. All totally natural and "organic".
I missed a lot while convo this website was hacked by santa's Elves, but Bardy is right about the idea "natural", and about the fact that our categories are arbitrary.
Some of the best minds over the last 3 centuries have created taxonomic classification systems that are still being refined and redefined as we learn more about the universe. Sudly will remind us that we would not even be here if not for the sun which is a huge nuclear chain reactor in comparison to our tiny but devastating bombs.
even our notions about "unnatural" are natural artifacts of association, some of which we have harbored since we were tiny tots.
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Nillion
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28598836 - 12/26/23 05:31 PM (1 month, 1 day ago) |
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Isn't my point yet that we are not ants? That we have more of a choice to cease to engage one another in battle?
We can even individually take oaths to cease to participate in war-like behavior and thus choose to abstain from violence. In this way we can witness an end to war in our own hearts and this is certainly a triumph. However one cannot separate violence from nature. Even in the individual who seeks peace there is still the possibility of violence.
As mentioned, ants do not build nuclear reactors, but even we in our technological splendor have ancestors that should humble us in our awareness of how far we have come. Even we apes have ancestors akin to the lowly rat we abhor today and before this those before us were even as worms are to us now. Even those creatures we consider lesser beings than us now have potentials for development beyond our imagination. For me this is even an aspect of the sanctity of life, in what I view to be a sacred garden.
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Nillion]
#28598847 - 12/26/23 05:42 PM (1 month, 1 day ago) |
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One hell of a garden.
I see a lot of randomness and absurdity, or what appears so. I daresay I don't think we can learn a lot from ants. I like ants. I like all of life, except red wasps and hornets, stinging wasp like insects. You know what I am talking about. The flying demons. They are actually demons. Those are real demons, the only ones truly. God bless your soul if you stumble across a hive of ground hornets or bald faced or holy mother the Japanese giant hornet. Fuck off with that 100% never going to Japan. Im JK but I will take off if there is a wasp. In the south I was afraid I would actually crash some day, because they get inside your car. Life is really good and evil mixed. And I agree that what is done from love reconciles that conundrum and irreconcilable duality. Wasps haven't evolved yet. I'm not that in touch with nature yet so as to be dead from 150 hornet stings. Lol
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Bardy


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28598854 - 12/26/23 05:48 PM (1 month, 1 day ago) |
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Careful not to babble jk
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Nillion
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28598859 - 12/26/23 05:52 PM (1 month, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Blue_Lux said: Nietzsche said beautifully that everything we are is AGAINST nature; everything to do is AGAINST what conditions are placed upon us, otherwise we die, remain unhappy, hungry, etc. Etc. There are things about us that are coherently 'natural,' as in necessarily...Nietzsche said, "to dictate to nature herself her own laws is self-tyranny."
I literally think Nietzsche was a pompous narcissistic edgelord windbag with a penchant for nihilistic circumlocution. I find his ideas tedious and naive at best. I would caution against giving his mental poison excessive attention lest his poor attitude and self-defeating peseudointellectuality infect his reader, as it so commonly appears to do.
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux] 1
#28598862 - 12/26/23 05:54 PM (1 month, 1 day ago) |
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hornets are just as evolved as we are, but for different niche. that we keep running into them is because we are the ones who are being not niche.
respect and be niche.
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής


Registered: 12/07/19
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy] 1
#28598865 - 12/26/23 05:56 PM (1 month, 1 day ago) |
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-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Blue_Lux
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I mean the paper wasps build nests all around dwellings. They prefer it.
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Nillion]
#28598872 - 12/26/23 05:59 PM (1 month, 1 day ago) |
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An eloquent trashing of Nietzsche, but I'd prefer to see some examples substantiating what you said.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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redgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28598967 - 12/26/23 07:34 PM (1 month, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Blue_Lux said: I mean the paper wasps build nests all around dwellings. They prefer it.
they evolved for the edge of the forest so our niche is their niche, however, if there already is a squashed paper bag hanging from your eaves (resembling a wasp nest) they will go somewhere else. maybe it works maybe not https://www.familyhandyman.com/article/paper-bag-wasp-deterrent-trick/ but in the meantime they are a slice of life.
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Bardy


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The end of war happens quite often. It’s the starting of wars that we need to concern ourselves with.
Kind of a joke, kind of not haha
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28599099 - 12/26/23 08:57 PM (1 month, 1 day ago) |
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We need to all try to make things better. There’s a thin line between acceptance and negligence. If we just accept it as being inevitable. We’re never going to be able to make things good enough that the idea of war is nothing but a distant memory.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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I'm going to hang some bags!
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DisoRDeR
motional



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Maybe we should all learn martial arts
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The end of war? [Re: DisoRDeR]
#28599332 - 12/27/23 01:49 AM (1 month, 1 day ago) |
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I think that would help people defend themselves personally. I don’t think that would end war though.
It could help people grow spiritually though. If they did it correctly.
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Nillion
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux] 1
#28599461 - 12/27/23 07:01 AM (1 month, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Blue_Lux said: An eloquent trashing of Nietzsche, but I'd prefer to see some examples substantiating what you said.
Imagine a toddler, who upon learning that Santa is not real then bitterly proclaims that truth itself is meaningless and then promptly falls in love with himself for having said so. That is as an apt a synopsis of Nietzsche's narcissistic pessimistic nihilism as any.
What can he lend to the conversation? I mention that the behavior of our species is a part of it's nature and you offer that Nietzsche thought our species unnatural as a refutation? Could not even his own behavior be seen as a manifestation of his nature and life experience? It seems his naive and dark view is more about rebelling against cultural tradition than it is about having gained any meaningful insight.
Is his rejection of Christianity itself not a manifestation of the very nature of conflict that all of our species bears? Rejecting symbolism, tradition and philosophy are not signs of innovative and original thought, every child experiences more or less the same rebellion before arriving at their own opinion. He's like a kid who discovered that they can indeed say no right back at their parents. Of course this behavior has non-linguistic equivalent. Eventually most mammals, even vertebrates, seek a comfortable distance from their forbears lest conflict ensue. Nietzsche's own rebellious musings are the manifestation of the same natural instincts that also form the basis of war and violence. For a man who rejects his own nature he sure appears controlled by it and it alone.
And the impact of Nietzsche's philosophy upon war and violence seems in favor, historically, of atrocity and fascistic impulse. His influence upon Nazism is well known. What solutions does his bitterness offer? Super-apes and master races? Please.
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DisoRDeR
motional



Registered: 08/29/02
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Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said:
I think that would help people defend themselves personally. I don’t think that would end war though.
It could help people grow spiritually though. If they did it correctly.
My comment was motivated partly by the idea of war being nothing but a distant memory, as well as my own experience.
As suggested earlier, preserving and bringing forward some impression of the reality of war as part of our education is probably helpful. The more distant that memory becomes, the less vivid its implications for suffering, and the more potential there seems to be to go back and discover war again.
What I've experienced through martial arts is the exploration of the realities of violence on a direct, interpersonal level without actually following through on it. There is potential in that training to nip a penchant for violence in the bud, while also cultivating the capacity to neutralize the emergence of violence in one's vicinity.
Your point about doing it correctly is well-taken though. I haven't experienced most teachers, but I'm not sure most martial arts training prioritizes teaching in the way my teacher does.
The idea of MAD on the scale of nations echoes through individual training as well. A person is made more dangerous, and hopefully also made more sensitive and empathetic. One learns this through working with partners in a structured environment, and people who were once strangers gradually become some of the most trusted through the respectful exploration of boundaries. We care for each other's bodies. Emerging sensitivity and coordination, repetition, and error inevitably result in some amount of harm to the people we rely on as community. We regret the harm but accept some degree of it toward ourselves as well through the mutuality of practice, increasing resiliency toward resentment.
People emerge in these environments whose sensitivity and empathy do not grow in proportion to their arrogance and self-interest. Hierarchy within the structured environment helps here to keep them in line.
I suppose by encouraging martial arts I'm proposing broadly distributed micro-wars which approach the lesson of battling with our own impulses toward domination with less bloodshed and destruction, and with sufficient contact with the other that we cannot deny their experience.
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Bardy


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Re: The end of war? [Re: DisoRDeR] 1
#28600097 - 12/27/23 05:33 PM (1 month, 20 hours ago) |
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I should really learn a martial art. I think your comment is very insightful and I agree that forgetting what war is like seems like a logical step towards rediscovering it.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: The end of war? [Re: DisoRDeR]
#28600116 - 12/27/23 05:44 PM (1 month, 20 hours ago) |
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I think remembering war can also perpetuate it
like remembering that your enemies tried to destroy you in the past may be a part of the reason you justify waging war against them in the present
I think thats part of what concerns Israel (not that its justified)
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Nillion]
#28600123 - 12/27/23 05:50 PM (1 month, 20 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Imagine a toddler, who upon learning that Santa is not real then bitterly proclaims that truth itself is meaningless and then promptly falls in love with himself for having said so. That is as an apt a synopsis of Nietzsche's narcissistic pessimistic nihilism as any
Innumerable gay people weren't murdered in the name of Santa.
Quote:
I mention that the behavior of our species is a part of it's nature and you offer that Nietzsche thought our species unnatural as a refutation? Could not even his own behavior be seen as a manifestation of his nature and life experience? It seems his naive and dark view is more about rebelling against cultural tradition than it is about having gained any meaningful insight.
Saying anything must necessarily be 'a part of' in the sense of patently anything else must be necessarily shown. The word 'nature' itself is a mistaken word, and there are multiple lenses from which it can be seen. Take this, for example, from Lucretius
Quote:
et quasi multa brevi spatio summittere debet lumina sol, ut perpetuo sint omnia plena, sic ab rebus item simili ratione necessest temporis in puncto rerum simulacra ferantur multa modis multis in cunctas undique partis; quandoquidem speculum quo cumque obvertimus oris, res ibi respondent simili forma atque colore.
Also like the sun must be emitting many lights in short space in order that it may perpetually be full in all respects: in this way, likewise; in a similar manner it is necessary of occasion, many images of matters, in having been affected, may be carried from things by many measures from every side; since by which at any time when the sun rises we direct the light against a mirror, the matters respond with similar form and color.
The conception of nature itself, as one to be separated into pieces of our awarenesses regarding conceptual systems and schema we place upon the world, our HUMAN world, can only cause an immediate gap between what we think is nature and what it really is. This is the epistemology of Plato. The nature Nietzsche is talking about is something he called a 'transvaluation of all values.' It is with knowing what Lucretius is meaning there about poetry itself and knowing nature that this becomes understood better. We do not have an immediate idea of what something is, we can only aim to reflect as many of those angles as possible, thus losing the traditional concept of God, which is really similar to Nature, as Spinoza's philosophy is based completely about. Spinoza says God is nature, and this is fitting. Nature itself is not a thing willing anything. There is too much to hold down. The concept itself is used in ideological ways that really have to do with separating things that exist from the plurality they really are invested in.
Quote:
Rejecting symbolism, tradition and philosophy are not signs of innovative and original thought, every child experiences more or less the same rebellion before arriving at their own opinion.
Rejecting is much different than exposing. Exposing is exactly what Nietzsche wrote was his philosophical style. Why do you think he split from Wagner?
"Rejecting nature" again
An insistence on prohibition..
This is exactly what nature in the Platonic sense is... It is really a Wizard of Oz meaning, where nature is actually just interpreted as what it truly is in the sense of a form, some deterministic thing that you must be separate from in order to even conceive it that way in the first place. Beyond Nature, against nature is really something unique about mankind, precisely in that they are not random, chaotic events of nature, against which everything we love and hold dear is built, hence Pompeii.. and Pliny the elder dying to see it.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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DisoRDeR
motional



Registered: 08/29/02
Posts: 1,158
Loc: nonsensistan
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28600125 - 12/27/23 05:51 PM (1 month, 20 hours ago) |
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If you do, I hope you find a good school.
I have hopes that the vivid documentation of what is happening in Ukraine will serve as strong deterrent and education. From browsing forums oriented around war footage, I fear there is a hardening toward the monstrous other developing in parallel with sensitivity toward the desperate and confused circumstances of so many soldiers.
Hopefully that cleaving of perspectives can be mended more gracefully than the one that inspired it.
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GenesisCorrupted
Taoist, Writer, Student, Artist




Registered: 08/01/23
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Re: The end of war? [Re: DisoRDeR]
#28600127 - 12/27/23 05:53 PM (1 month, 20 hours ago) |
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I agree that education is the main deterrent to war.
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής


Registered: 12/07/19
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Re: The end of war? [Re: DisoRDeR]
#28600139 - 12/27/23 06:02 PM (1 month, 19 hours ago) |
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Quote:
As suggested earlier, preserving and bringing forward some impression of the reality of war as part of our education is probably helpful
It already has been... And it impresses in children a necessity of war, as if it must always exist.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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DisoRDeR
motional



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Posts: 1,158
Loc: nonsensistan
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28600142 - 12/27/23 06:04 PM (1 month, 19 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: I think remembering war can also perpetuate it
That's a good point.
I think the problem often hinges less on the remembering itself and more on the interpretation, reduction, justification, identities, and dogma at play.
Traumatic memories reassert themselves and tend to twist the present up a bit, and that is something else to deal with.
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Nillion]
#28600144 - 12/27/23 06:09 PM (1 month, 19 hours ago) |
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I'll be waiting for a proper response not chucked full of ad hominem attacks, strawmen, & argumenta ad ignorantias.
You used a plethora of 'like a' and ad hoc references to childish rebellion.. and a sententious, liberal use of metaphors to cover up the unhideable lack of actual context, quotations or anything substantial covering Nietzsche's philosophy.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Nillion]
#28600147 - 12/27/23 06:14 PM (1 month, 19 hours ago) |
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A metaphor isn't a syllogism.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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DisoRDeR
motional



Registered: 08/29/02
Posts: 1,158
Loc: nonsensistan
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28600150 - 12/27/23 06:18 PM (1 month, 19 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Blue_Lux said:
Quote:
As suggested earlier, preserving and bringing forward some impression of the reality of war as part of our education is probably helpful
It already has been... And it impresses in children a necessity of war, as if it must always exist.
What else does it do? How else can it be done?
"Some impression" was sloppy, but also open to something new. Teaching history as the punctuation of conflicts between societies and a fixation on the most brutal and strategically effective players probably doesn't cut it.
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Nillion]
#28600159 - 12/27/23 06:29 PM (1 month, 19 hours ago) |
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I'll make it simpler.
The nature of hunger is opposed to the nature of living, because hunger not being fulfilled causes death. You can say hunger is in its nature to be fulfilled, but how could such cases of hunger be determined beforehand? They clearly are not, because death from starvation occurs. If it was meant to be fulfilled, it wouldn't exist in the first place, because there would never have been a homeostatic imbalance. Then what is the nature of a homeostatic imbalance? This is consistently ad hoc, do you not see? Constantly to some 'nature,' which is really just a placeholder word for the idea that something must always be contained in something else until an ultimate thing that encompasses everything, mono-ontologically, you could say. The very word polytheism explains all this. It is not singular. The method of making the plural into the singular is an ad hoc, fallacious form of reasoning.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Nillion
Nobody

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Posts: 1,000
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux] 1
#28600168 - 12/27/23 06:36 PM (1 month, 19 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Blue_Lux said: I'll be waiting for a proper response not chucked full of ad hominem attacks, strawmen, & argumenta ad ignorantias.
You used a plethora of 'like a' and ad hoc references to childish rebellion.. and a sententious, liberal use of metaphors to cover up the unhideable lack of actual context, quotations or anything substantial covering Nietzsche's philosophy.
I already stated my opinion upon his philosophy as narcissistic pessimistic nihilism.
Once again, that I mentioned that War is a part of nature, you attempt to refute it by quoting Nietzsche saying that humans are not natural creatures. I consider your reply to be little more than circumlocution itself. I could not care less about what Nietzsche thinks nor think of it as anything more than irrelevant drivel. In my opinion Nietzsche sucks dude. He's the edgelord philosopher.
The rest of it is just circumlocution to me. You want to argue about the nature of the word nature?
Good luck with that!
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Nillion]
#28600172 - 12/27/23 06:42 PM (1 month, 19 hours ago) |
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You can reply to my actual statements, otherwise omission is admission. There is no point in replying to the same lack restated with different, verbose metaphors - which really have nothing to do with Nietzsche's philosophy but with a mockingly reductionist belittlement, which says more about you than Nietzsche.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Nillion]
#28600174 - 12/27/23 06:45 PM (1 month, 19 hours ago) |
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Quote:
You want to argue about the nature of the word nature?
Really? Now you know you don't have anything to say, so you fabricate nonsensical and facile, actually circumlocutive strawmen? Just after accusing Nietzsche of circumlocution?
Ironic.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: The end of war? [Re: DisoRDeR]
#28600175 - 12/27/23 06:46 PM (1 month, 19 hours ago) |
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I like your mention of approaching the lesson of battling with our own impulses. as in insight conquering war
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής


Registered: 12/07/19
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I think that is a poor and dangerous idea. Teaching war as some thing always happening reinforces in children a false notion of the world as your enemy to conquer. Under the safety of the family and strong army men to save you from the bad guys and villains... This reinforces an anthropomorphic determinism about the world. To learn anything is to love it. What are you supposed to teach about 'war'? This is the opposite of love. It is like telling children they should learn a lot about hate, and announcing at the school board meeting that Marquis De Sade should be now a part of the 3rd grade curriculum.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Nillion
Nobody

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Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28600202 - 12/27/23 07:12 PM (1 month, 18 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Blue_Lux said: You can reply to my actual statements, otherwise omission is admission. There is no point in replying to the same lack restated with different, verbose metaphors - which really have nothing to do with Nietzsche's philosophy but with a mockingly reductionist belittlement, which says more about you than Nietzsche.
As mentioned my opinion is that war is a fundamental and inseparable part of natural behavior of life. Now, you might think that quoting Nietzsche about nature somehow offers insight or perspective on the topic of war, however that is not an opinion I share. I've already provided my opinion about Nietzsche and his philosophy and yes, I do openly mock Nietzsche, I'm glad you managed to figure that out! And yes that does say more about me than it does Nietzsche. Of course that is more about me than it says about him, but in this aspect of behavioral reflection one might likewise gain insights into the significance of your own intellectual aggression and petty dismissals of the opinions of others and then we come right back to what I said about how Nietzsche seems to affect peoples attitudes.
What were my exact words there?
Quote:
I would caution against giving his mental poison excessive attention lest his poor attitude and self-defeating peseudointellectuality infect his reader, as it so commonly appears to do.
I stand by them still.
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Nillion]
#28600212 - 12/27/23 07:21 PM (1 month, 18 hours ago) |
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You can say that about anyone. Give some examples of his "mental poison" and "pseudointellectuality." Seems more like a pompous excuse in deflection.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Nillion]
#28600213 - 12/27/23 07:22 PM (1 month, 18 hours ago) |
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You used a lot of words but said nothing.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Nillion]
#28600217 - 12/27/23 07:26 PM (1 month, 18 hours ago) |
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Your opinion is thus undialectical. I gave an argument as to why your hypostatization of war as some 'nature thing' is a facade that really says nothing but restates an abstract notion and pretends it is saying something other than "war is inevitable." It is really a misanthropic perspective completely devoid of pathos or ethos. And really the logos is lacking as well.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Nillion
Nobody

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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28600230 - 12/27/23 07:41 PM (1 month, 18 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Blue_Lux said: I think that is a poor and dangerous idea.
Teaching self control is a dangerous idea?
Quote:
Blue_Lux said: Teaching war as some thing always happening reinforces in children a false notion of the world as your enemy to conquer.
Teaching children that violence is a natural instinct and that they have a temper and need to control it reinforces the idea that the world is a thing to be conquered? I don't find that tenable.
Quote:
Blue_Lux said: To learn anything is to love it.
I don't find that tenable.
I'm a grandparent and most of my children are adults.
I have found that one can teach children about hate without teaching them to hate and about violence without teaching them to be violent. In fact, I've found that teaching them that violence is a thing any human is capable of offers them more control, not less, over their own instincts towards it.
Quote:
Blue_Lux said:Your opinion is thus undialectical. I gave an argument as to why your hypostatization of war as some 'nature thing' is a facade that really says nothing but restates an abstract notion and pretends it is saying something other than "war is inevitable." It is really a misanthropic perspective completely devoid of pathos or ethos. And really the logos is lacking as well.
To you saying that war is a part of nature is misanthropic?
I think that's pretty delusional and that you are just being dismissive and insulting of other opinions that differ from your own by mischaracterizing them.
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Nillion]
#28600232 - 12/27/23 07:43 PM (1 month, 18 hours ago) |
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I would reply to that nitpicking nonsense, but I can already tell you are arguing eristically, and therefore there is no point.
Here's something you may resonate with. Don't cast your pearls to the swine.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: The end of war? [Re: Nillion] 2
#28600235 - 12/27/23 07:46 PM (1 month, 18 hours ago) |
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its hard to understand other people when we listen through the filters of our own views and assumptions
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Bardy


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28600248 - 12/27/23 07:57 PM (1 month, 17 hours ago) |
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You need to chill out man. Stop taking personal offence on behalf of some dude you don’t even know.
You don’t seem to be even attempting to try to see things how Nillion or others do.
Ironically, this is war like behaviour. You’re helping to prove the point that this kind of behaviour is innate.
Just because it is innate though doesn’t mean we can’t curb it. Rape is a natural phenomenon as well, but we rightly think of it as a terrible thing and put measures in place to try to stop it as much as possible. Those measures evolve with time the same as everything else, and maybe one day we will be as free from war and rape as much as we possibly can be.
I’m not optimistic we can get to a place that has gross zero “bad things” for the very same reason people don’t seem to be able to always control their aggression in passionate arguments such as this.
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28600252 - 12/27/23 08:01 PM (1 month, 17 hours ago) |
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Hush bardy, I gave him what he wanted.
That is called altruism.

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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28600256 - 12/27/23 08:03 PM (1 month, 17 hours ago) |
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'War' is not innate. Tendencies of aggression are. Aggression =/= war. It is easy to make subtle equivocations without realizing it. And lastly, disagreement is not aggression, and becoming annoyed at irrationality is not being aggressive. Yes, I know... It is hard to know the difference...
NOT
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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redgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28600261 - 12/27/23 08:10 PM (1 month, 17 hours ago) |
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The whole idea of battling the infidel is about the internal struggle, about doing battle with the infidel within, with the habits we have that are not consistent with our spiritual or ethical values.
Jihad is supposed to be within the devoted person, not killing and raping people who are different than those in your religious congregation or other clique.
It is a several hundred years old idea in Islam, and it maps well onto eastern martial arts disciplines.
We only see and hear about the degenerate version which is war and death.
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Nillion
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28600263 - 12/27/23 08:11 PM (1 month, 17 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: its hard to understand other people when we listen through the filters of our own views and assumptions
I am guilty of that, certainly. I wish it were not so.
And yet so often what we see in others, even in our objections, is what we know in ourselves. That relates to the concepts I attempted to share in the bully psychology thread, that aggression is linked to fear in terms of behavior.
I confess I'm not very intellectual or intelligent. Most of the insight I have into human behavior comes from things like Aesop's Fables and personal observations from life. This has left me simple minded. Arguing the nature of the word nature, or pondering if mankind is natural or not are endeavors far too sophisticated for me.
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Bardy


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28600266 - 12/27/23 08:13 PM (1 month, 17 hours ago) |
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You’re right, I agree aggression isn’t war, but the difference is maybe a matter of scale.
A few people getting aggressive isn’t war, but a whole tribe getting aggressive and acting on that aggression could be called war in my opinion.
Annoyance, aggression, violence, hate, irritability… they all seem to me to be different manifestations of the same type of emotion. Different levels of identifying with those types of emotions maybe. And if stewed upon for long enough by enough people, could cause violence and a slide into war.
We can be aggressive and then curb it as soon as we notice, there’s not much harm in that. Then we can maybe offer an apology to deescalate the situation if need be. The problems occur when we identify with our aggression I think, and hold onto it, let it brew and inform our actions for long periods of time.
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Bardy


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Re: The end of war? [Re: Nillion]
#28600267 - 12/27/23 08:15 PM (1 month, 17 hours ago) |
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Don’t say that Nillion, anyone can openly ponder these things! It’s fun. Why the hell not eh? Haha
You might have some life experience that we do not which sheds light on something for one of us.
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Nillion]
#28600280 - 12/27/23 08:27 PM (1 month, 17 hours ago) |
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Oh BS "I'm not very intellectual or intelligent." Excuses
Everyone I have met has profound feelings, experiences, and all the means to be whatever 'intelligent' or 'intellectual.' Even a young call it whatever you want, a mentally challenged sex worker. She was tortured by her step dad, and she couldn't even write very well, and yet our conversation was incredibly deep, and she had a lot to say about life that made a whole lot of sense but very very few people could stand to take her seriously. "Intelligent" is stupid if not talking about just the fact of our consciousness. The mind is sticky, it's just a lot of oil can become to encase contents and separate them from one another like drops on the surface of water.
Be sticky.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Nillion
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: The whole idea of battling the infidel is about the internal struggle, about doing battle with the infidel within
To defeat the devil where he is encountered, so to speak. I love the Quran and Islam.
I'm also a huge fan of the teachings of Jesus Christ, though my version of all of that is quite different than what is publicly known. Still, I strive to follow the two commandments of Christianity found in Mathew 22:36-39, not because I am a Christian, I'm not, at least not in any typical sense, but because they fit my understanding of the world. I follow a version of the Gospel, but in my version it is a path, not an agreement. In this it is about how one lives, not about what happens after one dies. However my version of the Gospel is not such that it should be made public. I'm not trying to recruit or convert others to the path. Everyone has their own, after all. Or as a movie I rather love put it: "There is a separate sky for each of us"
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Nillion]
#28600300 - 12/27/23 08:50 PM (1 month, 17 hours ago) |
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This isn't rocket science. Take an apple. Okay, yes, apples exist, but every apple is different. We know this, and this means our word cannot actually encompass what really exists, but we act as if it doesn't matter in order to communicate. The reality of our world is not our concepts about it, but it is not inaccessible to us. It is what is accessible to us. Words are to exchange exactly what is incommunicable and inaccessible in each other. This is exactly why words have specificity, not as a means of brainwashing by some authority, but in order that our mentalities and perspectives match - beyond the words.
It does matter that our words contain this fundamental lack of cohesiveness, which cannot contain the plurality they seek to limit and contain. "The nature of the word nature" is nonsensical for exactly these reasons. It is an infinite regress. It is just restating the same thing with more words hoping to get something else.
Nature, however, in the sense of how the world is, what appears to us, the sun shining on plants, the fish in the ocean, the rain on the pond with the frogs... Is exactly that. It is not one thing. It is many many things. When you ask "what is the nature of something?" You really mean by 'nature' the word 'genus.' What is the genus of that? It is a method of categorization. There is a reason Lucretius' poem is "de rerum natura" on the nature of thingS. Not "on the nature thing.' For Lucretius there is a most fundamental plurality, and these things (everything) are nature. Nature is not one thing. It is a singular word as a placeholder for a reference to what is plural and can only really be ever spoken of with any real meaning singly and explicitly, taken with care and regard for the disparate - not to throw all of that aside for the sake of holding the small portion of things that may be conceptually similar as the most important information about any of them at all. A doctor does not prescribe a treatment merely based on what a book says but by a careful, unique analysis of the patient. Pharma companies want the opposite, but that is beside the point. There is no blueprint of reality that is the real reality. Life is like a potato more than a tree of branches. It may grow in any direction, in any shape, completely at random. So much for any telos of war in nature. Nature will create flesh esting bacteria for nothing other than the fact that your face can be a nice meal to a microscopic organism. This doesn't mean it is in your nature to have MRSA infect your face.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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redgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28600314 - 12/27/23 09:30 PM (1 month, 16 hours ago) |
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nature does not create bacteria, hahaha. but bacteria are part of nature.
try not to think of nature in the same category as god the creator, although there is something omnipresent about nature because it is everywhere. it is more the place holder word for "what is" or "what exists, and how was it before, and how things work". it could also be the world or the universe including all of life.
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Nillion
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux] 1
#28600318 - 12/27/23 09:37 PM (1 month, 16 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Blue_Lux said:Nature is not one thing. It is a singular word as a placeholder for a reference to what is plural
I can respect that this is your opinion but I do not find it to be tenable.
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Nillion
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: it could also be the world or the universe including all of life.
As well as the way, or course, or path, of said Universe, and it can be both the Universe and the way of it and be a single thing and be entirely consistent with Spinoza's Deus sive Natura.
I am reminded of Categories in this conversation, the work by Aristotle. This relates to substance as essence and is developed into Substance Theory. In that context Blue_lux's assertions about nature are accurate when considered as about essence. However that is largely unrelated to the Nature I write of, this is more apparent if one replaces nature with another word, like tendency. In this questions about the tendencies of things are valid lines of inquiry, but one sees how the concept fails when one inserts the word Tendency into Spinoza who does not claim that tendency is God, so to speak. Likewise I am reminded strongly of The Way, or Tao, which can also be called Nature and which fits rather well into Spinoza.
Incidentally Tao has teachings about war, which given that it's author was known as a skilled swordsman is no surprise to those familiar with the context and hidden meanings, which are strongly related to martial arts. Much of my opinion reflects his teachings as well.
Edited by Nillion (12/27/23 10:01 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Nillion] 1
#28600505 - 12/28/23 05:22 AM (1 month, 8 hours ago) |
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glad to be quoted with Spinoza, though I only understand 1/10th of what he means. The Way, yes - that is relative to mind, an embodied and sustaining way finding thing.
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Blue_Lux
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Spinoza is really just an Epicurean flipped upside down. Someone else already thought of this... around the time I thought of it actually, and they have an essay or a book called Spinoza, The Epicurean. I was led to that conclusion from other things, and I found out about this Greek scholar's work later. I then lost interest in writing something about it when I saw it had already been written, but it is really true. There are many parallels between Lucretius and Spinoza.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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redgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28600527 - 12/28/23 06:16 AM (1 month, 7 hours ago) |
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besides De rerum natura, what else is there to consider?
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Blue_Lux
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Lucretius' De Rerum Natura is actually unfinished. It is the only thing extant from him. Very little is known about Lucretius. The work itself is about as complex as it gets. There is so much there, it is really incredible. All the supposedly modern critiques of religion exist in Lucretius. As well, phenomenology is in Lucretius... Every translator will tell you their translation simply cannot do it justice. No translation can possibly give it all. It wants to be read in the original Latin, and it is true, only reading a few pages at a time will leave you dumbstruck. I think he was trying to achieve something like James Joyce, you know, like Finnegan's wake, or rather, perhaps James Joyce had been inspired by Lucretius in that endeavor. There is no question about whether Spinoza had read Lucretius.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Blue_Lux
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On a side note, I think there is a real chance someone gave me a tire blowout today. Recently put on... Never had one before. A few weird factors, and another right before it happened. I haven't found the reason it blew out yet, but I will. I'm just hoping that is wrong, and that it really was something random. I don't drive over stuff. I'm a very safe driver.
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Nillion
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux] 1
#28601276 - 12/28/23 05:33 PM (30 days, 20 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Blue_Lux said: On a side note, I think there is a real chance someone gave me a tire blowout today. Recently put on... Never had one before. A few weird factors, and another right before it happened. I haven't found the reason it blew out yet, but I will. I'm just hoping that is wrong, and that it really was something random. I don't drive over stuff. I'm a very safe driver.
Sorry to hear it. I'm glad you're a safe driver. Hopefully it doesn't happen again. Stay safe!
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Blue_Lux
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Nillion] 1
#28601331 - 12/28/23 06:20 PM (30 days, 19 hours ago) |
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I'm not afraid to die. All that truly matters is love, and I've had a lifetime worth of it. Only thing that gets to me deepest is the idea of being without my husband, or never seeing his face again. That's the only thing about death that I am not ready to face. If it happens. We've talked about this, but it doesn't fix it, and we've maybe said everything you can actually say about it. Besides that, I already took my own shot at death before. All this is borrowed time for all I consider.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Nillion
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I'm glad you are around and am happy for you and your husband. Love is one of my favorite things about life too.
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