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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής


Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 2,151
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28589005 - 12/18/23 08:20 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Nietzsche said "madness in individuals is rare but in groups is the norm"
What you are saying is something Slavoj Zizek said about the Jungian idea of "An enemy is someone who wasn't able to tell his or her own story" something like that. I forget the exact quote. The meaning is... If someone could talk enough and understand themselves (with a psychoanalyst) then they could be changed. Zizek said 'Have we really not heard Hitler's story?'
I totally agree, but Hitler's story wasn't merely his own. It was conditioned by the tendency of people throughout history to use and manipulate each other in the most pernicious and devious ways, divided over power and the ideas that prop up their power.
Back to the point... None of this goes away just because people can be coerced and propagandized. With regard to Nazi antisemitism... Check out some of the books Martin Luther wrote... German antisemitism was already huge hundreds of years before Hitler... Martin Luther didn't recommend murdering people however. That was Hitler's "struggle." Such a 'struggle' indeed cannot be reconciled with, but the conditions that bring about people looking to a Hitler and facilitating actions from someone like that can be addressed. They start on a personal level, and it includes anyone and especially anyone with power in wealth. Even the aims of Jeffrey Dahmer and Charles Manson can be understood. Nothing is without some reason. The reason however can become mutilated, and "in nomine boni pessimi malorum," "the worst of all evils deeds are done in the name of the good." Hitler said and I quote that he was doing the handiwork of the lord. He wasn't merely a psychopathic murderer. He was a would-be conqueror. He failed. If Napoleon wouldn't have blundered, this world would be immensely better. We're suffering the consequences still of a dark age.
We should look instead at solving what actually caused that dark age, instead of looking to symptomatic treatments, like fascism, stalinism, brute communism with supreme leaders, etc.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28589009 - 12/18/23 08:23 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said:
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redgreenvines said: It may need signing on by others, but we can only ensure our own assent. once compelling sets in, the whole thing falls apart, like a poorly set pudding.
So you wanna sum it all up by saying that peace is a poorly set pudding?
Because deep down you know it never stays together.
no that is not what i mean, when it falls apart we have to make pudding again it gels from within, not from coercion.
the kitchen has to want to keep making pudding
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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I don't expect pudding to last
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,851
Last seen: 7 minutes, 38 seconds
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28589030 - 12/18/23 08:40 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said: Its a really big question, the broadest answer is, if it was up to mee I would do everything I could to de-escalate conflict.
Of course, de-escalation is the top priority. But when it comes down to a machine such as Nazi Germany torturing and killing millions of people for nothing more than superficial differences do you really think you can just say to those people;
“hey guys, we’d like it if you stopped killing Jews, black people, gay people. We know you’ve already killed about 6 million, but if you stop now we’ll let that slide in the name of peace. What are your needs that are not being met which are influencing your harsh beliefs?”
Your example of being a listener to someone doesn’t seem to apply in this case. People tried to listen and give Germany what they wanted over and over again. De-escalation was seriously attempted many, many times in the lead up to World War 2, but Germany only saw this as a display of weakness. They kept asking for more, demanding more, and taking more.
I agree with everything you’re saying, but you don’t seem to be denying that violence might have to be used at some point in order to stop other violence. This is my main point, and I feel as though you and RGV have just been dodging this question.
“Hate doesn’t dispel hate” is true, but sometimes if someone is unloading punches in your face it is necessary to kick them in the balls in order to escape with your life. It totally possible to punch an attacker in the balls without knowing them or hating them. It is just a means to get them to stop bringing you harm.
it might take me a bit to get back to this as life is getting busy here
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 35 minutes, 54 seconds
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Ah okay, I see now. Thanks.
And yes, the worst evils are committed in the name of good, because that is how you get the most people to go along with it.
But in order to stop those people what do we do? RGV seems to me to think we should cultivate peace within ourselves over and over. This seems to me like maybe it is a good long term solution. To pass on a culture of peace.
The problem with this that I see is that cultures which are pacifists are ripe for the taking by a conqueror culture.
I’m not sure what Freedom thinks. I don’t believe Freedom has directly addressed this.
Are you a pacifist Freedom? Or do you think it’s okay to defend yourself using a minimal amount of force? Sorry, I’ll leave it at that for now then, give you a chance to reply.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28589144 - 12/18/23 10:08 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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sure you must standup for yourself, but this does not necessarily imply that violence is the way to do it.
an attacker can be disabled at scale, personal fitness for personal defense, country wide fitness for defense of a country.
each event is a distinct situation.
after disabling the attacker which may involve some damage, peace comes back to the fore ground.
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RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,010
Loc: USA
Last seen: 7 minutes, 35 seconds
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A masculine man has the willingness & ability to be violent - if necessary.
An emasculated man doesn't possess the willingness & ability to be violent.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: A masculine man has the willingness & ability to be violent - if necessary.
An emasculated man doesn't possess the willingness & ability to be violent.
context, context! backed into a corner, you might be surprised.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,851
Last seen: 7 minutes, 38 seconds
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28589500 - 12/19/23 08:34 AM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said:
I agree with everything you’re saying, but you don’t seem to be denying that violence might have to be used at some point in order to stop other violence. This is my main point, and I feel as though you and RGV have just been dodging this question.
“Hate doesn’t dispel hate” is true, but sometimes if someone is unloading punches in your face it is necessary to kick them in the balls in order to escape with your life. It totally possible to punch an attacker in the balls without knowing them or hating them. It is just a means to get them to stop bringing you harm.
I realize i keep trying to see the questios and things through the lens of the op, the end of war. I think there are times violence or the threat of violence may prevent even more violence. However thats a temporary measure.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,851
Last seen: 7 minutes, 38 seconds
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28589502 - 12/19/23 08:37 AM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Blue_Lux said: I agree with the receptiveness part. I think the phenomenon of pillow talk can really shine some light on the subject of the dynamics of conversations, arguments, exchanges... It is all intercourse, surely you know. I have a funny, obscene joke I came up with about this. Where the straight men sit and debate, there the gay men fornicate. Perhaps it is actually literally true. I don't know. But there is some truth to it... As in... If you really want to have a discussion, this begs the question of where it is leading, but sometimes it doesn't have to. Often the conversation is the point itself, where one's thoughts are meant to come out in a different, reorganized way, which can strengthen ones own AND another's understanding of their own ideas and feelings. This is the action of simultaneous change in two people, doing it to each other willingly. If one is not open to being changed, an important psychological reality to our being, which is typically represented with feminine characteristics (e.g. receptiveness, agreeableness) but is in all people in varying degrees and proportions, then one cannot hope to learn anything from anyone, and the whole point of communication goes out the window.
Yes, I actually wrote about how to influence another you have to be open to influence and then delteted it.
that joke reminds me of a poem,
Quote:
since feeling is first who pays any attention to the syntax of things will never wholly kiss you;
wholly to be a fool while Spring is in the world
my blood approves, and kisses are a better fate than wisdom lady i swear by all flowers. Don’t cry —the best gesture of my brain is less than your eyelids’ flutter which says
we are for each other: then laugh, leaning back in my arms for life’s not a paragraph
And death i think is no parenthesis
e.e. cummings
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,851
Last seen: 7 minutes, 38 seconds
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy] 1
#28589510 - 12/19/23 08:45 AM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said: Ah okay, I see now. Thanks.
And yes, the worst evils are committed in the name of good, because that is how you get the most people to go along with it.
But in order to stop those people what do we do? RGV seems to me to think we should cultivate peace within ourselves over and over. This seems to me like maybe it is a good long term solution. To pass on a culture of peace.
The problem with this that I see is that cultures which are pacifists are ripe for the taking by a conqueror culture.
I’m not sure what Freedom thinks. I don’t believe Freedom has directly addressed this.
Are you a pacifist Freedom? Or do you think it’s okay to defend yourself using a minimal amount of force? Sorry, I’ll leave it at that for now then, give you a chance to reply.
I don't think its conquerrer cultures, or sociopath or evil or whatever
hitler didn't come to powere in a vacuum, and it wasn't just cause he was strong and charismatic. Treating the violence of hitlers germany with violence may have been necessary. I won't claim to know if there was another way. What I claim is that violence is a symptom. Yes lets treat the symptom in the best way possible. Maybe thats non violent reisitance. maybe thats launching artilliray rounds, or nuclear deterence.
but to end war, the cause has to be treated. I think war is dependant on national, religious or cultural identity, and as the world gets small and these identities bump into each other, I think there is a chance for the majority to realize these are inventions for us to use, not ideas to be enslaved by.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,851
Last seen: 7 minutes, 38 seconds
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: A masculine man has the willingness & ability to be violent - if necessary.
An emasculated man doesn't possess the willingness & ability to be violent.
what need is there for the idea of masculine? we can just say someone willing and able to be violent is someone willing and able to be violent.
i think masculine is just a category for psychological qualities and behaviors that a person associates with people who have testicals and facial hair etc. There are many ways of categorizing things, however there is nothing inherently true in categorization.
There is also nothing inherently true about a persons associations.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28589529 - 12/19/23 09:07 AM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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good points +'s
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28589552 - 12/19/23 09:40 AM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said:
Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: A masculine man has the willingness & ability to be violent - if necessary.
An emasculated man doesn't possess the willingness & ability to be violent.
what need is there for the idea of masculine? we can just say someone willing and able to be violent is someone willing and able to be violent.
i think masculine is just a category for psychological qualities and behaviors that a person associates with people who have testicals and facial hair etc. There are many ways of categorizing things, however there is nothing inherently true in categorization.
There is also nothing inherently true about a persons associations.
The need comes through desires and job descriptions. Beyond that the idea arises through observation without need. As said, more typical with particular associations.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,851
Last seen: 7 minutes, 38 seconds
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Rahz] 1
#28589563 - 12/19/23 09:48 AM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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I'm not following you. I don't see myself as masculine or feminine, and I have desires and have read job descriptions.
I also don't get how the idea naturally arises through observation. I have always thought, even as a child, that the ideas were absurd and did't represent anything real.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28589588 - 12/19/23 10:20 AM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Care should be taken to draw a difference between masculinity and male, feminine and female but being able and willing to dominate physically (if in the job description) is seen as a masculine quality, though more to do with muscle and inclination than harry balls. This is due to the observation that males are typically stronger (even at the same body weight).
Most people can't help but draw these associations. For me things become questionable when for instance a strong man is prone to violence or domination for vanity. I think it speaks more to maturity than masculine/feminine polarity which does complicate the issue, but not so much that it doesn't makes sense to me.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,851
Last seen: 7 minutes, 38 seconds
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Rahz]
#28589679 - 12/19/23 11:36 AM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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When I think male I think anatomy/physiology. When I think masculine, I think gender. Gender being psychological traits assoicated with male or female anatomy.
I don't know what you mean by masculine
I get that there are jobs that require strenghth and men tend to be stronger, however thats a physiological thing, not psychological. well maybe a little psychological, i could see identifying as being strong making you try harder and performing better on strength test than you would otherwise...
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 35 minutes, 54 seconds
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28590159 - 12/19/23 05:00 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Freedom… you say you didn’t address my question because you wanted to stay on topic but now you’re in a hole talking about masculinity
I just had an argument with the mower man about where to park my car. Dude was being very unreasonable and I felt like caving his head in with a shovel. I’d never do that of course, but these primal urges are with us to stay I think. Which is why I think that war will never permanently end.
I’m over my little head trip now, but for a little while it was quite difficult to deal with. We need to be taught how to deal with these thoughts from a young age I think, because they are the cause of pretty much all the negativity in the world.
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής


Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 2,151
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28590233 - 12/19/23 05:58 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Or maybe the way people are forced to live creates what they then compensate in themselves the actual bad truth with? Living stacked on top of others creates problems? Who would've thought! ...
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,851
Last seen: 7 minutes, 38 seconds
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28590324 - 12/19/23 07:04 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said: Freedom… you say you didn’t address my question because you wanted to stay on topic but now you’re in a hole talking about masculinity
I just had an argument with the mower man about where to park my car. Dude was being very unreasonable and I felt like caving his head in with a shovel. I’d never do that of course, but these primal urges are with us to stay I think. Which is why I think that war will never permanently end.
I’m over my little head trip now, but for a little while it was quite difficult to deal with. We need to be taught how to deal with these thoughts from a young age I think, because they are the cause of pretty much all the negativity in the world.
Its not that I was intending to stay on topic, it was I wasn't answering you cause I didn't understand you cause of how i was interpreting what you wrote based on the context
what gives me hope is that there is very little war when people have homogenous identity, and identity is delusional. I think there will come a time when we understand in mass the nature of identity.
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