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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,851
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28587199 - 12/17/23 06:23 PM (1 month, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
“Today I am taking sides.
I am taking the side of Peace.
Peace, which I will not abandon even when its voice is drowned out by hurt and hatred, bitterness of loss, cries of right and wrong.
I am taking the side of Peace whose name has barely been spoken in this winnerless war.
I will hold Peace in my arms, and share my body’s breath, lest Peace be added to the body count.
I will call for de-escalation even when I want nothing more than to get even.
I will do it in the service of Peace.
I will make a clearing in the overgrown thicket of cause and effect so Peace can breathe for a minute and reach for the sky.
I will do what I must to save the life of Peace.
I will breathe through tears.
I will swallow pride.
I will bite my tongue.
I will offer love without testing for deservingness.
So don’t ask me to wave a flag today unless it is the flag of Peace.
Don’t ask me to sing an anthem unless it is a song of Peace.
Don’t ask me to take sides unless it is the side of Peace.“
— Rabbi Irwin Keller
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28587212 - 12/17/23 06:32 PM (1 month, 10 days ago) |
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Rabbi Keller sets a good model to follow
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
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Very ideal of you guys… and don’t get me wrong, I love this idea.
But everyone needs to sign up to this idea in order for it to prevail. All you need is one group that has some kind of infectious and insidious ideology for peace to be destroyed temporarily. And infectious, insidious ideologies spread amongst uneducated and educated populations alike.
All is good if you don’t take any sides and become a complete pacifist until some nazis round you up to be taken to a camp. Is your solution to Nazis just to wave your peace flag? I really hope not…
This poem is fighting a war. It’s fighting a war of ideas which it needs to win… but no one can win the war of ideas forever. The one thing that is constant in this universe is that everything changes.
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής


Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 2,151
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28587324 - 12/17/23 07:54 PM (1 month, 10 days ago) |
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The war of ideas ends with the love of the source of all ideas, the inner consciousness unlocked by the key of psychedelics. War ends when the consciousness of love resides in each individual more powerfully than that of holding power over other people. Not fake love. Genuine, serotonin filled, oxytocin loaded, dopamine pumped love. This can express itself just as potently with telling that old lovely woman at the dollar general how beautiful her dress is, with the geometrical patterns spilling onto the floor and moving around in neon colors lying transparent. Something about life has a light in it, but we can't often see the light. Alan Watts said "very often there goes along with it an extremely warm feeling, because you see the divine in everybody else's eyes... When Kabir was a very old man he used to look around and say "To whom shall I preach?" because he saw the beloved in all eyes."
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 35 minutes, 40 seconds
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28587362 - 12/17/23 08:26 PM (1 month, 10 days ago) |
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Yeah, it ends within the individual momentarily, but it doesn’t end. Don’t forget there are new people being born and indoctrinated all the time.
There are also people that lose their love of the source of ideas because of stressors in their lives and end up down the rabbit hole of some insidious ideology.
Edited by Bardy (12/18/23 01:01 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28587849 - 12/18/23 05:09 AM (1 month, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said:... This poem is fighting a war. It’s fighting a war of ideas which it needs to win… but no one can win the war of ideas forever. The one thing that is constant in this universe is that everything changes.
exactly. so it cannot be not a win for ever, but peace is worth keeping fighting for using peaceful ideas. That is the only way to preserve peace, and when it stops, things degenerate.
this is more about the reality of change and of intelligence, both are constant but intelligence requires constant efforts (restarting and practice). i.e. what is considered as Will in the literature, something with no fixed address (i.e. not a neural process in itself at any particular location), but exhibited through actions, and cultivated by caring.
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RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,010
Loc: USA
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28587907 - 12/18/23 05:47 AM (1 month, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said:
I agree that the effective defense against the rise of totalitarianism while we still have some form of democracy is to enthusiastically support democracy and law . . .
"Totalitarianism" is political system that prohibits all opposition parties.
Many attempt to inflame wild irrational hysteria using words such as brainwashed cult, fascists, & extremists.
This type of hysterical hatred is often disguised as compassionate caring.
We must go to war against this hysterical hatred. We must eradicate it.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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everything is an item
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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yeah
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,851
Last seen: 7 minutes, 24 seconds
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28588075 - 12/18/23 08:40 AM (1 month, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said: Very ideal of you guys… and don’t get me wrong, I love this idea.
But everyone needs to sign up to this idea in order for it to prevail. All you need is one group that has some kind of infectious and insidious ideology for peace to be destroyed temporarily. And infectious, insidious ideologies spread amongst uneducated and educated populations alike.
All is good if you don’t take any sides and become a complete pacifist until some nazis round you up to be taken to a camp. Is your solution to Nazis just to wave your peace flag? I really hope not…
This poem is fighting a war. It’s fighting a war of ideas which it needs to win… but no one can win the war of ideas forever. The one thing that is constant in this universe is that everything changes.
I think the poem taps into the part of us that knows we are the same. I'm not on the side of factions, nations, religions, belief systems etc, I'm on the human side
Identification With All Humanity as a Moral Concept and Psychological Construct
Quote:
Studies of those who rescued Jews during the Holocaust suggest that their most shared quality was a sense “of belonging to one human family” (Monroe, 1996, p. 205), caring deeply about human beings without regard for their race, religion, or other distinction. In this article, we first note the development of the concept of “one humanity” since the late 15th century, and then we summarize recent work with a new measure of that caring—the Identification With All Humanity Scale (IWAH). Research with the IWAH establishes that identification with all humanity is more than (a) an absence of prejudice and its sources and (b) the sum of positive qualities, such as dispositional empathy and principled moral reasoning. Many people appear to intuit that a mature moral person would identify with all humanity, even when they do not do so themselves. Finally, a brief discussion is offered of how identification with all humanity may develop or could be taught.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28588377 - 12/18/23 01:10 PM (1 month, 10 days ago) |
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same for me - human side - and earth side
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 35 minutes, 40 seconds
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
Bardy said:... This poem is fighting a war. It’s fighting a war of ideas which it needs to win… but no one can win the war of ideas forever. The one thing that is constant in this universe is that everything changes.
exactly. so it cannot be not a win for ever, but peace is worth keeping fighting for using peaceful ideas. That is the only way to preserve peace, and when it stops, things degenerate.
this is more about the reality of change and of intelligence, both are constant but intelligence requires constant efforts (restarting and practice). i.e. what is considered as Will in the literature, something with no fixed address (i.e. not a neural process in itself at any particular location), but exhibited through actions, and cultivated by caring.
Yes, but you only addressed the third paragraph of what I wrote. In the first paragraph I write that this idea needs to be signed onto by everybody in order to prevail.
Yes you can sign onto this idea of only being peaceful, but when Nazis come kicking your door down what are you going to want people to do? Just let these atrocities happen unchecked? Just let such an insidious ideology infect a whole continent and possibly the world?
Freedom, if you’re on the human side, which I am too, then what do you do with large powerful groups who want to exterminate everyone who isn’t white skinned and blue eyed? Whatever that is, it’s the opposite to the human side… No one seems to want to address this question as this is the second time I’ve asked.
Would you just let it all unfold in the name of peace? Because that’s what you all seem to be arguing for.
We don’t live in a peaceful world. We live in a world where there seems to be some kind of perverse balance between peace and war, and where force is needed as a last resort to stamp out murderous, hateful groups.
You both have said you’re on the human side. Remember that taking sides is not peaceful? You’re both all for peace, but you’re on a philosophy forum most days arguing about what is true. This is conflict in one of its most harmless forms and you can’t resist it. What happens when then stakes rise? When it’s not just an idea that’s on the line, but when it’s the life of everyone you care about and so many more innocent people? Until you honestly answer this question I don’t see the point in continuing this conversation.
And RJTubs, you’re missing my point entirely if you’re going to get stuck on an argument about propaganda. It’s a good point, but it’s got nothing to do with what I’m trying to get these guys to admit.
Edited by Bardy (12/18/23 02:56 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28588506 - 12/18/23 03:02 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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It may need signing on by others, but we can only ensure our own assent. once compelling sets in, the whole thing falls apart, like a poorly set pudding.
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής


Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 2,151
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28588671 - 12/18/23 05:02 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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It is really the power of imagination. Psychedelics are a catalyst of imagination.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 35 minutes, 40 seconds
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: It may need signing on by others, but we can only ensure our own assent. once compelling sets in, the whole thing falls apart, like a poorly set pudding.
So you wanna sum it all up by saying that peace is a poorly set pudding?
Because deep down you know it never stays together.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,851
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28588823 - 12/18/23 06:33 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said:
Freedom, if you’re on the human side, which I am too, then what do you do with large powerful groups who want to exterminate everyone who isn’t white skinned and blue eyed? Whatever that is, it’s the opposite to the human side… No one seems to want to address this question as this is the second time I’ve asked.
Would you just let it all unfold in the name of peace? Because that’s what you all seem to be arguing for.
We don’t live in a peaceful world. We live in a world where there seems to be some kind of perverse balance between peace and war, and where force is needed as a last resort to stamp out murderous, hateful groups.
I think the urge to stamp out hateful murderous groups is what creates those groups.
Quote:
In this world Hate never yet dispelled hate. Only love dispels hate. This is the law, Ancient and inexhaustible.
Dhammapada 3-5
Quote:
Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
MLK
I share these quotes not as an appeal to authority but because I can't think of a way to say it better.
Daryl Davis may be an exemplar of bringing light to darkness:
Quote:
Bardy said: You both have said you’re on the human side. Remember that taking sides is not peaceful? You’re both all for peace, but you’re on a philosophy forum most days arguing about what is true. This is conflict in one of its most harmless forms and you can’t resist it. What happens when then stakes rise? When it’s not just an idea that’s on the line, but when it’s the life of everyone you care about and so many more innocent people? Until you honestly answer this question I don’t see the point in continuing this conversation.
Its a really big question, the broadest answer is, if it was up to mee I would do everything I could to de-escalate conflict.
A simple way to see this is the next time you find yourself in an argument with someone, give up trying to get them to see your point and just reflect back what they say, sharing how you think they feel and what valid need they have that's causing that feeling. Tell them you want to help them get that need met. those needs and feelngs are part of our universal humanity.
so its the same with isreal and palastine. Maybe isreal can temporarily win against hamas, but the thousands of civilians that have died will create another hammas. they are supporting their enemy by waging war against their enemy, and I think thats exactly what hammas wanted, thats why the did such an extreme act.
The absurdity of it is there is no such thing as israel, palestine, judaism or islam. War would not happen without the delusion of these collective identities.
Because identity isn't real, I don't think its actually that sustainable. Once you pull the rug out from under it, it starts to lose its enchantment.
There is also tremendous relief when the identity loses its grip. Once a person sees that, I think their whole life starts to change direction. You stop feeding the delusion as much, it grows weaker, which causes even less feeding. Or you see it more and more clearly and get sick and tired of it. You see what its doing and can't help but stop. It becomes obvous that they cry inside of "more more more give me more" is what causes the sense of lack, and seeing that causes its end. I think most people are driven by this insatiable need for more, and so they try to get more than their share, or cheat, lie, steal, rape. And the otherside too, the opposite of more is intolerance. People tend to be intolerent of that which threatens their identity (beliefs, values, etc etec). When you realize your identity isn't a real thing (like a rock or your body), it loses its serousness.
I think it is a tragedy of commons situation, and its possible for people to be happy with one sheep,
Edited by Freedom (12/18/23 06:35 PM)
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής


Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 2,151
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28588841 - 12/18/23 06:48 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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No, don't give up on getting your point across. That is how you get people to walk all over you. Hold your ground. Opinions can't be debated anyway, unless you're assuming your interlocutor is up for an extended dialectical, philosophical exchange. Most are not up to the task. Be good enough to be able to make your points incontrovertibly and concisely so there is no avoiding or escaping the truth concerned, otherwise there would be no conversation to begin with.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,851
Last seen: 7 minutes, 24 seconds
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28588849 - 12/18/23 06:55 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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if the other person becomes reactive, they probably won't be able to listen anyway.
in order to re-establish communication, one person has to listen. You don't have to give up your view or your needs, you just demonstrate to the other person you can undrestand and empathize with them, see their humanity and value them. that tends to help open them up
then you're both open and influence each other. both walls go down. it can take a lot of skill, thats what Daryl Davis does I think
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής


Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 2,151
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28588885 - 12/18/23 07:15 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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I agree with the receptiveness part. I think the phenomenon of pillow talk can really shine some light on the subject of the dynamics of conversations, arguments, exchanges... It is all intercourse, surely you know. I have a funny, obscene joke I came up with about this. Where the straight men sit and debate, there the gay men fornicate. Perhaps it is actually literally true. I don't know. But there is some truth to it... As in... If you really want to have a discussion, this begs the question of where it is leading, but sometimes it doesn't have to. Often the conversation is the point itself, where one's thoughts are meant to come out in a different, reorganized way, which can strengthen ones own AND another's understanding of their own ideas and feelings. This is the action of simultaneous change in two people, doing it to each other willingly. If one is not open to being changed, an important psychological reality to our being, which is typically represented with feminine characteristics (e.g. receptiveness, agreeableness) but is in all people in varying degrees and proportions, then one cannot hope to learn anything from anyone, and the whole point of communication goes out the window.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm 𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱 May I ask what your bud type is? ❂ LXIV⁶⁴AMOR ❂Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 35 minutes, 40 seconds
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28588951 - 12/18/23 07:50 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Its a really big question, the broadest answer is, if it was up to mee I would do everything I could to de-escalate conflict.
Of course, de-escalation is the top priority. But when it comes down to a machine such as Nazi Germany torturing and killing millions of people for nothing more than superficial differences do you really think you can just say to those people;
“hey guys, we’d like it if you stopped killing Jews, black people, gay people. We know you’ve already killed about 6 million, but if you stop now we’ll let that slide in the name of peace. What are your needs that are not being met which are influencing your harsh beliefs?”
Your example of being a listener to someone doesn’t seem to apply in this case. People tried to listen and give Germany what they wanted over and over again. De-escalation was seriously attempted many, many times in the lead up to World War 2, but Germany only saw this as a display of weakness. They kept asking for more, demanding more, and taking more.
I agree with everything you’re saying, but you don’t seem to be denying that violence might have to be used at some point in order to stop other violence. This is my main point, and I feel as though you and RGV have just been dodging this question.
“Hate doesn’t dispel hate” is true, but sometimes if someone is unloading punches in your face it is necessary to kick them in the balls in order to escape with your life. It totally possible to punch an attacker in the balls without knowing them or hating them. It is just a means to get them to stop bringing you harm.
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