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GenesisCorrupted
Taoist, Writer, Student, Artist




Registered: 08/01/23
Posts: 7,183
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 12 seconds
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The end of war?
#28584785 - 12/16/23 02:12 AM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Edited by GenesisCorrupted (12/22/23 02:27 PM)
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GenesisCorrupted
Taoist, Writer, Student, Artist




Registered: 08/01/23
Posts: 7,183
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 12 seconds
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Quote:
CookieCrumbs said: The blade missed my heart But it was pierced anyway Bearing the weight of the world As I am steadily crushed
Men deserve more than they have Knowing that somehow They were meant for more Than this shallow existence More than flaws of system
So steal from your fellow man And make yours what was meant Violence begets violence As hate makes hate And greed feeds greed Is there no one to stop this?
I want to gouge my eyes out So I will see no more This devastation of my people I want to blow my ears out So I will hear no more The cries of criminals and victims
The Empires of man Were built with blood, sweat, and tears But not of the kings and politicians Who reign for a god they don’t know Each only demanding more of the downtrodden And it will never be enough
I cut my chest open So I feel no more This god forsaken continuum With a blade jammed in my breast
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Pinkerton wants to end war. I just wrote to a Ferdinando that the wars were bringing me down.
I think education is the way, and not by banning books, we need to conserve memory, the memory of soldiers, of victims, and the thoughts of those standing by worried and living in neutral lands.
the stories must be told, and they must be listened to, i.e. scheduled into the gardening of the little peyote pups at school. like diatamaceoous earth, speaking the bones of the dead can make living more peaceful and resilient against the warring ideas of pests.
How peacetime activity in one place relates to war in another place is very important, and it makes each of us a significant actor at least mentally.
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,127
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Pinkerton wants to end war.

And so do you.
We shall succeed.  
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 35 minutes, 26 seconds
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I’d love for war to end permanently but I do not think it is possible… save for the extinction of humanity.
It just seems like all things that cause war are inherent in all people to some degree, and on the scale of 8 billion people there’s bound to be break outs.
Get ten people together for Christmas and you’re bound to have some conflict… and that’s family who love each other almost unconditionally. Expand that tendency for conflict out to 8 billion people who have like 7,000 different languages, probably at least 7,000 different cultures and a seemingly infinite way of interpreting things…
I’d like to be able to, but I cannot imagine a world that is purely peaceful.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy] 1
#28585011 - 12/16/23 07:59 AM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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But all things for Peace are also natural in people.
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,127
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Quote:
Pinkerton said: Pinkerton wants to end war.

And so do you.
We shall succeed.   
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,127
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Quote:
Pinkerton said: Pinkerton wants to end war.

And so do you.
We shall succeed.   
No?
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 35 minutes, 26 seconds
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: But all things for Peace are also natural in people.
Yeah… so we have peace time and war time.
It’s hard to imagine a society in which people didn’t form groups, that seems natural.
It’s difficult to imagine that those groups wouldn’t have disagreements.
It’s easy to imagine a scenario in which a young person with something to prove rises to power in one of those groups with sinister intentions and forces the other groups to either join theirs or die.
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Has anyone here considered the yin Yang aspect of war and peace? Is it not necessary to have war in order to have peace? How can one come without the other? Are they not both opposite sides of the same coin?
Makes me sad to think that this might be true.
In order to stop these kinds of dangerous groups forming we need stronger, larger groups more capable of violence (governments, armed forces)… and these larger groups are also capable of warring on massive scales…
Maybe we need an enemy that unites the entire species?
But even then, depending on the nature of the enemy, I could see an enemy being able to divide Homo sapiens into groups which decide to war with each other… it really seems inescapable to me at this point in time.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,851
Last seen: 7 minutes, 10 seconds
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the first step towards war is harmony. we call it 'us' (no not perfect harmony)
the next step happens very quickly, we call it 'them'
each 'us' has been shapped by our local situation. people in deserts form a culture adapting them to deserts. For them, its good, and true and right. They live in realitive harmony. the desert keeps the culture from straying to far.
then you get arctic people, jungle people, sea city people, land city people, farming people, etc etc.
the diversity of each us creates potential for conflict. the belief in your us as true, or better, or right makes the them false, worse or wrong.
we call this dehumanization sometimes. historically we could enslave the them. the azetcs sacrifcidd them to the sun god.
If we can use culture instead of being used by culture, that is, if we can see it as a tool rather than a truth, then maybe we can be flexible enough to work together, flexible enough to see we are them.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,851
Last seen: 7 minutes, 10 seconds
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom] 1
#28585950 - 12/16/23 07:19 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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also i really like glasl's model of conflict escalation.
Quote:
1st Level (Win–Win) Stage 1 – Tension Conflicts start with tensions, e.g. the occasional clash of opinions. This is a common occurrence and is not perceived as the start of a conflict. However, if a conflict should result the positions become more fundamental. The conflict could have deeper causes.
Stage 2 – Debate From now on the conflict parties consider strategies to convince the counterparty of their arguments. Differences of opinion lead to a dispute. The parties try to put each other under pressure and think in terms of black and white.
Stage 3 – Actions instead of words The conflict parties increase the pressure on each other in order to assert their own opinion. Discussions are broken off. No more verbal communication takes place and the conflict is increasingly exacerbated. Sympathy for "them" disappears.
2nd Level (Win–Lose) Stage 4 – Coalitions The conflict is exacerbated by the search for sympathisers for one's cause. Believing one has right on one's side, one can denounce the opponent. The issue is no longer important: one has to win the conflict so that the opponent loses.
Stage 5 – Loss of face The opponent is to be denigrated by innuendo and the like. The loss of trust is complete. Loss of face means in this sense the loss of moral credibility.
Stage 6 – Threat strategies The conflict parties try to gain absolute control by issuing threats which demonstrate their own power. One threatens, for example, with a demand (10 million euros) which is enforced by a sanction ("otherwise I′ll blow up your main building") and underlined by the potential for sanction (showing the explosive). The proportions decide the credibility of the threat.
3rd Level (Lose–Lose)
Stage 7 – Limited destruction One tries to severely damage the opponent with all the tricks at one's disposal. The opponent is no longer regarded as human. From now on, limited personal loss is seen as a gain if the damage to the opponent is greater.
Stage 8 – Total annihilation The opponent is to be annihilated by all means.
Stage 9 – Together into the abyss From this point personal annihilation is accepted in order to defeat the opponent.
glasl's path to de-escalation:
Quote:
Stage 1–3: mediation Stage 3–5: process guidance Stage 4–6: sociotherapeutic process guidance Stage 5–7: intercession, intermediation Stage 6–8: arbitration, court action Stage 7–9: forcible intervention
there's a lot more to it, thats just the outline
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
#28586257 - 12/17/23 01:58 AM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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meditation and drawing could reduce war like with your influence
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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I love you redgreenvines and all you others
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 35 minutes, 26 seconds
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I have to admit, I didn’t understand you when I first came here Ferdinando, but you’ve really grown on me. Keep on keeping on
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy] 1
#28586360 - 12/17/23 05:50 AM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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A common enemy exists. totalitarianism. the end of the rule of law must be opposed by all. representatives of this enemy are Putin, Bibi, and Trump.
our defense is enthusiastic support of democracy and law. not enforcement.
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RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,010
Loc: USA
Last seen: 7 minutes, 7 seconds
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Many Americans believe 2016-2020 was akin to Adolf Hitler's Third Reich.
United States high school and college history teachers need to do better.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,851
Last seen: 7 minutes, 10 seconds
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: Many Americans believe 2016-2020 was akin to Adolf Hitler's Third Reich.
United States high school and college history teachers need to do better.
I think that kind of thing happens at stage 5.
Quote:
Stage 5 – Loss of face The opponent is to be denigrated by innuendo and the like. The loss of trust is complete. Loss of face means in this sense the loss of moral credibility.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 35 minutes, 26 seconds
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: A common enemy exists. totalitarianism. the end of the rule of law must be opposed by all. representatives of this enemy are Putin, Bibi, and Trump.
our defense is enthusiastic support of democracy and law. not enforcement.
Yeah, and that enemy splits the population. It has divided your nation and almost every other western nation. The common enemy isn’t seen as an enemy to nearly half the voting population in the USA. This is what I’m talking about.
Covid 19 should have also been a common enemy that united the population, but we split into groups even for that. This is my point. As a species, we do very well at splitting into groups based on nonsense and then having conflicts.
And yes, I agree that the effective defence against the rise of totalitarianism while we still have some form of democracy is to enthusiastically support democracy and law, but what do you do once democracy falls and total power is given to one egomaniacal fool? You go to war. You go to war in order to have peace.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
#28587034 - 12/17/23 04:15 PM (1 month, 10 days ago) |
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support democracy and law and education so that we do not cascade into versions of the tower of babel - as if September 11 had taken on a biblical scale, and half the people have no idea what the other half are saying
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 35 minutes, 26 seconds
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I do. I 100% am in favour of democracy, good laws and education.
But I feel like I’m being honest by admitting there always seems to be a risk, however small, of society devolving into totalitarian regimes, and that this is where violence is needed in order to give the majority of the population their freedom back.
I hate that this negativity exists in the world, but it does, and it seems to be inherent in the species.
I don’t know, maybe we could all end up pacifists… but then it’d be easy for some anti pacifists to take over right?
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