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OnlineGenesisCorruptedS
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The end of war?
    #28584785 - 12/16/23 02:12 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

(For your reading experience.)



Let’s talk about the motivations of war. Let’s talk about if it is possible to end a war forever. Or if it’s inevitable.

First, we should address the 20 year cycle theory.
All of our war veterans from the last world war pretty much passed on by this point.
People have forgotten once again.
Now this is the theory of inevitability. I hate this theory. We’ve already technically gone a bit past it.
But that’s because people are living longer lives. It feels like it correlates to me.
So if it’s just because people died from the war. Why isn’t the lesson sinking in. Because we have video. We have papers and documents and museums filled with artifacts.
Such as the holocaust museum.

We can’t keep making the same mistakes again and again.

I think this strikes at education most.
If people are left, destitute, desperate and with nothing. They won’t remember why we can’t just go and take things. What it actually leads to.
So if there was education. Let’s just say hypothetically.
It was free.
Now, let’s assume everyone’s getting the education that roughly everyone else is getting.

Would we still need to wage the war?
I think this comes down to differences of ideologies. If somebody is convinced that they are doing the right thing. They have faith in what they’re doing.
Even if it’s horrible for humanity.
They won’t feel remorse for the dead. It will continue. We will have the war again.

Well, theoretically. Just for the thought experiment. What if every religion found ancient documents right now. And they were just all connected. Everyone was actually doing the same thing the whole time. Somehow there is no more combat of ideologies whatsoever.

Would we still wage the war?
I want an end to war.
But I don’t know if it exists.
Because I suspect deep down inside of our brain. There’s the animal & it hungers. It desires more because it’s insatiable.
“The grass is always greener”
So if you can’t be satisfied with anything once you grow accustomed to it.

There’s always more to strive for.

Then, what do you do to stop the war?
I guess the only answer would be to not have anything left to conquer to begin with?

So again, let’s just theoretically throw out somehow. The earth is all one country now. There are no borders. We’re all together in this. Maybe we got invaded by aliens just to make this easier on ourselves. So we all banded together as a race.

Fantastic.
Even then. Do you think that somebody would be unsatisfied enough to try and take more?

Now I think this is the moment where we could say we have a utopia. There would be some fringe people that would be trying to mess some stuff up. But for the most part. We should be good at this point.

But there is still that part of me that thinks maybe it’s impossible to ever be satisfied. Maybe it’s an unbreakable cycle. Once the veterans of the last war die completely. None of us are hearing their stories for a while to actually describe it. The brutality that they’ve seen. We just watch a bunch of movies and TV shows about it and forget that it’s real.
Then it happens again.

Because I want an end to the war permanently.

It would a gamble. But if everyone took the message to heart. Then they realized that there wasn’t an adversary to conquer. That we were all just people. I think that we could move on. That we would not need to ever repeat it. That would take a grand gesture. With a huge leap of faith. Then I think we could do away with war.

But can we ever achieve this?
Or is it inevitable?
Can humanity and war?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (12/16/23 02:11 AM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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Edited by GenesisCorrupted (12/22/23 02:27 PM)


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OnlineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: The end of war? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28584824 - 12/16/23 04:05 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
The blade missed my heart
But it was pierced anyway
Bearing the weight of the world
As I am steadily crushed

Men deserve more than they have
Knowing that somehow
They were meant for more
Than this shallow existence
More than flaws of system

So steal from your fellow man
And make yours what was meant
Violence begets violence
As hate makes hate
And greed feeds greed
Is there no one to stop this?

I want to gouge my eyes out
So I will see no more
This devastation of my people
I want to blow my ears out
So I will hear no more
The cries of criminals and victims

The Empires of man
Were built with blood, sweat, and tears
But not of the kings and politicians
Who reign for a god they don’t know
Each only demanding more of the downtrodden
And it will never be enough

I cut my chest open
So I feel no more
This god forsaken continuum
With a blade jammed in my breast




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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] * 1
    #28584855 - 12/16/23 04:56 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Pinkerton wants to end war.
I just wrote to a Ferdinando that the wars were bringing me down.

I think education is the way, and not by banning books, we need to conserve memory, the memory of soldiers, of victims, and the thoughts of those standing by worried and living in neutral lands.

the stories must be told, and they must be listened to, i.e. scheduled into the gardening of the little peyote pups at school. like diatamaceoous earth, speaking the bones of the dead can make living more peaceful and resilient against the warring ideas of pests.

How peacetime activity in one place relates to war in another place is very important, and it makes each of us a significant actor at least mentally.


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: The end of war? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28584858 - 12/16/23 05:00 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Pinkerton wants to end war.

:hatsoff:

And so do you.

We shall succeed. :heart::heart::heart:


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OfflineBardy
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Pinkerton]
    #28584993 - 12/16/23 07:41 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

I’d love for war to end permanently but I do not think it is possible… save for the extinction of humanity.

It just seems like all things that cause war are inherent in all people to some degree, and on the scale of 8 billion people there’s bound to be break outs.

Get ten people together for Christmas and you’re bound to have some conflict… and that’s family who love each other almost unconditionally. Expand that tendency for conflict out to 8 billion people who have like 7,000 different languages, probably at least 7,000 different cultures and a seemingly infinite way of interpreting things…

I’d like to be able to, but I cannot imagine a world that is purely peaceful.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy] * 1
    #28585011 - 12/16/23 07:59 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

But all things for Peace are also natural in people.


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: The end of war? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28585366 - 12/16/23 01:11 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Pinkerton said:
Pinkerton wants to end war.

:hatsoff:

And so do you.

We shall succeed. :heart::heart::heart:




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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: The end of war? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28585371 - 12/16/23 01:11 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Pinkerton said:
Pinkerton wants to end war.

:hatsoff:

And so do you.

We shall succeed. :heart::heart::heart:




No?


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OfflineBardy
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Re: The end of war? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28585924 - 12/16/23 07:12 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
But all things for Peace are also natural in people.




Yeah… so we have peace time and war time.

It’s hard to imagine a society in which people didn’t form groups, that seems natural.

It’s difficult to imagine that those groups wouldn’t have disagreements.

It’s easy to imagine a scenario in which a young person with something to prove rises to power in one of those groups with sinister intentions and forces the other groups to either join theirs or die.

——

Has anyone here considered the yin Yang aspect of war and peace? Is it not necessary to have war in order to have peace? How can one come without the other? Are they not both opposite sides of the same coin?

Makes me sad to think that this might be true.

In order to stop these kinds of dangerous groups forming we need stronger, larger groups more capable of violence  (governments, armed forces)… and these larger groups are also capable of warring on massive scales…

Maybe we need an enemy that unites the entire species?

But even then, depending on the nature of the enemy, I could see an enemy being able to divide Homo sapiens into groups which decide to war with each other… it really seems inescapable to me at this point in time.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The end of war? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] * 2
    #28585931 - 12/16/23 07:14 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

the first step towards war is harmony. we call it 'us' (no not perfect harmony)

the next step happens very quickly, we call it 'them'

each 'us' has been shapped by our local situation. people in deserts form a culture adapting them to deserts. For them, its good, and true and right. They live in realitive harmony. the desert keeps the culture from straying to far.

then you get arctic people, jungle people, sea city people, land city people, farming people, etc etc.

the diversity of each us creates potential for conflict. the belief in your us as true, or better, or right makes the them false, worse or wrong.

we call this dehumanization sometimes. historically we could enslave the them. the azetcs sacrifcidd them to the sun god.


If we can use culture instead of being used by culture, that is, if we can see it as a tool rather than a truth, then maybe we can be flexible enough to work together, flexible enough to see we are them.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom] * 1
    #28585950 - 12/16/23 07:19 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

also i really like glasl's model of conflict escalation.

Quote:

1st Level (Win–Win)
Stage 1 – Tension
Conflicts start with tensions, e.g. the occasional clash of opinions. This is a common occurrence and is not perceived as the start of a conflict. However, if a conflict should result the positions become more fundamental. The conflict could have deeper causes.

Stage 2 – Debate
From now on the conflict parties consider strategies to convince the counterparty of their arguments. Differences of opinion lead to a dispute. The parties try to put each other under pressure and think in terms of black and white.

Stage 3 – Actions instead of words
The conflict parties increase the pressure on each other in order to assert their own opinion. Discussions are broken off. No more verbal communication takes place and the conflict is increasingly exacerbated. Sympathy for "them" disappears.

2nd Level (Win–Lose)
Stage 4 – Coalitions
The conflict is exacerbated by the search for sympathisers for one's cause. Believing one has right on one's side, one can denounce the opponent. The issue is no longer important: one has to win the conflict so that the opponent loses.

Stage 5 – Loss of face
The opponent is to be denigrated by innuendo and the like. The loss of trust is complete. Loss of face means in this sense the loss of moral credibility.

Stage 6 – Threat strategies
The conflict parties try to gain absolute control by issuing threats which demonstrate their own power. One threatens, for example, with a demand (10 million euros) which is enforced by a sanction ("otherwise I′ll blow up your main building") and underlined by the potential for sanction (showing the explosive). The proportions decide the credibility of the threat.

3rd Level (Lose–Lose)

Stage 7 – Limited destruction
One tries to severely damage the opponent with all the tricks at one's disposal. The opponent is no longer regarded as human. From now on, limited personal loss is seen as a gain if the damage to the opponent is greater.

Stage 8 – Total annihilation
The opponent is to be annihilated by all means.

Stage 9 – Together into the abyss
From this point personal annihilation is accepted in order to defeat the opponent.




glasl's path to de-escalation:
Quote:

Stage 1–3: mediation
Stage 3–5: process guidance
Stage 4–6: sociotherapeutic process guidance
Stage 5–7: intercession, intermediation
Stage 6–8: arbitration, court action
Stage 7–9: forcible intervention





there's a lot more to it, thats just the outline


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Freedom]
    #28586257 - 12/17/23 01:58 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

meditation and drawing could reduce war
like with your influence


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with our love with our love we could save the world


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #28586301 - 12/17/23 03:08 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

I love you redgreenvines
and all you others


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OfflineBardy
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #28586321 - 12/17/23 04:19 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

I have to admit, I didn’t understand you when I first came here Ferdinando, but you’ve really grown on me. Keep on keeping on :peace:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy] * 1
    #28586360 - 12/17/23 05:50 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

A common enemy exists.
totalitarianism.
the end of the rule of law must be opposed by all.
representatives of this enemy are Putin, Bibi, and Trump.

our defense is enthusiastic support of democracy and law. not enforcement.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The end of war? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28586410 - 12/17/23 06:46 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Many Americans believe 2016-2020 was akin to Adolf Hitler's Third Reich.

United States high school and college history teachers need to do better.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The end of war? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28586545 - 12/17/23 08:56 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Many Americans believe 2016-2020 was akin to Adolf Hitler's Third Reich.

United States high school and college history teachers need to do better.





I think that kind of thing happens at stage 5.

Quote:

Stage 5 – Loss of face
The opponent is to be denigrated by innuendo and the like. The loss of trust is complete. Loss of face means in this sense the loss of moral credibility.




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OfflineBardy
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Re: The end of war? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28586958 - 12/17/23 02:46 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
A common enemy exists.
totalitarianism.
the end of the rule of law must be opposed by all.
representatives of this enemy are Putin, Bibi, and Trump.

our defense is enthusiastic support of democracy and law. not enforcement.




Yeah, and that enemy splits the population. It has divided your nation and almost every other western nation. The common enemy isn’t seen as an enemy to nearly half the voting population in the USA. This is what I’m talking about.

Covid 19 should have also been a common enemy that united the population, but we split into groups even for that. This is my point. As a species, we do very well at splitting into groups based on nonsense and then having conflicts.

And yes, I agree that the effective defence against the rise of totalitarianism while we still have some form of democracy is to enthusiastically support democracy and law, but what do you do once democracy falls and total power is given to one egomaniacal fool? You go to war. You go to war in order to have peace.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The end of war? [Re: Bardy]
    #28587034 - 12/17/23 04:15 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

support democracy and law and education so that we do not cascade into versions of the tower of babel - as if September 11 had taken on a biblical scale, and half the people have no idea what the other half are saying


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OfflineBardy
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Re: The end of war? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28587156 - 12/17/23 05:46 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

I do. I 100% am in favour of democracy, good laws and education.

But I feel like I’m being honest by admitting there always seems to be a risk, however small, of society devolving into totalitarian regimes, and that this is where violence is needed in order to give the majority of the population their freedom back.

I hate that this negativity exists in the world, but it does, and it seems to be inherent in the species.

I don’t know, maybe we could all end up pacifists… but then it’d be easy for some anti pacifists to take over right?


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