Home | Community | Message Board

MushroomMan Mycology
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Mushroom-Hut Substrate Mix   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   North Spore Bulk Substrate

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1
InvisibleShroomish8
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 12/25/18
Posts: 14
Genetic Degradation Using Grain Soak Agar, Whole Oats, & CVG
    #28584276 - 12/15/23 05:52 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Hey Fungi Friends!

My friend has been using grain soak water to make agar plates and initially loved them for fast and strong growth. They clone fruits to the grain soak agar (GSA) then do some transfers to verify and expand the culture before transferring from GSA to whole oats and ultimately monotubs with CVG for fruiting and repeating the cycle. At first they mentioned this worked great for them, but over time they noted that their ALL of cultures seemed weaker and fruits got smaller/fewer.

Clearly the cultures are degrading for some reason. While it could just be genetics shifting in the wrong direction, it seems unlikely that would be the case with every variety and culture they worked with. After noticing this pattern across the board, my friend has come up with a theory that this degradation could be caused by lack of variation in nutrition. Since they are working with grain soak water on agar, then colonizing on sterilized grain, and then fruiting on coir-verm-gypsum, really the only nutrition is coming from grains.

The usual rule of them for A2A is to change up the nutrient after around 4-5 transfers to minimize degradation. Their theory is that GSA -> Whole Oats -> CVG -> GSA -> etc... is similar to repeatedly transferring A2A with the same nutrient. That sounds logical to me but we want more opinions.

Does this theory make sense to anyone? Has anyone experienced something similar when doing agar work with exclusively grain water for extended periods?

Thanks for any opinions, experiences, and advice you can provide!
Does GSA -> Whole Oats -> CVG -> Repeat cause degradation?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (12/15/23 02:50 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Genetic Degradation Using Grain Soak Agar, Whole Oats, & CVG [Re: Shroomish8] * 2
    #28584286 - 12/15/23 06:01 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Perhaps you're using grains coated with agro products, removing them via the boil, concentrating them in the water, then attempting to grow fungi on agar using water concentrated with these antifungal products.

I'm not saying that's what it is, but something to consider.

Quote:

Much of the loss of the grain in the grain store or in the clamp is due to fungal growth and moulds. In storage, fungal growth requires temperatures of 20-30°C, at least 1-2% oxygen and 13-18% moisture. Fungi include Aspergillus, Fusarium and Penicillium with Fusarium being the most prevalent in field cereals. Fungi produce moulds that secrete highly toxic metabolic byproducts called mycotoxins, and it is storage mycotoxins that are of most concern to grain production...

Preservatives can be applied to moist grain (15-25% moisture content) to act against fungal growth. Preservatives include Propionic acid and salt-based preservatives {e.g. based on ammonium propionate).




Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineHappinessStan
Fungivore
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/10/12
Posts: 1,615
Loc: Worcester, UK
Last seen: 1 hour, 50 minutes
Re: Genetic Degradation Using Grain Soak Agar, Whole Oats, & CVG [Re: Shroomish8]
    #28584287 - 12/15/23 06:02 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

The amount of nutes coming from a slice of agar is minimal when compared to the amount of nutes coming from the grain spawn. You can send water agar to grain spawn. You're either chasing bad genetics or just have bad spawn. Got any photos of the plates?


--------------------



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Genetic Degradation Using Grain Soak Agar, Whole Oats, & CVG [Re: HappinessStan]
    #28584289 - 12/15/23 06:05 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Discontinue the use of gsw in agar, see if the problems stop. Pretty simple to troubleshoot.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShroomish8
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 12/25/18
Posts: 14
Re: Genetic Degradation Using Grain Soak Agar, Whole Oats, & CVG [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 1
    #28584292 - 12/15/23 06:10 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

They just started to think this could be the issue in the past couple of days, so definitely going to switch it up and see if that helps. Will report back.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShroomish8
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 12/25/18
Posts: 14
Re: Genetic Degradation Using Grain Soak Agar, Whole Oats, & CVG [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #28584298 - 12/15/23 06:15 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Stipe-n Cap said:
Perhaps you're using grains coated with agro products, removing them via the boil, concentrating them in the water, then attempting to grow fungi on agar using water concentrated with these antifungal products.

I'm not saying that's what it is, but something to consider.

Quote:

Much of the loss of the grain in the grain store or in the clamp is due to fungal growth and moulds. In storage, fungal growth requires temperatures of 20-30°C, at least 1-2% oxygen and 13-18% moisture. Fungi include Aspergillus, Fusarium and Penicillium with Fusarium being the most prevalent in field cereals. Fungi produce moulds that secrete highly toxic metabolic byproducts called mycotoxins, and it is storage mycotoxins that are of most concern to grain production...

Preservatives can be applied to moist grain (15-25% moisture content) to act against fungal growth. Preservatives include Propionic acid and salt-based preservatives {e.g. based on ammonium propionate).








That sounds very logical. That would mean the grain bags produced from the boil work well while the grain water plate cultures are slowly dying. Cultures look good on first transfer to the GSA then worse after a few rounds of A2A. Maybe they are freaking out and growing fast to try and escape the poison then inevitably succumbing to it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Genetic Degradation Using Grain Soak Agar, Whole Oats, & CVG [Re: Shroomish8]
    #28584303 - 12/15/23 06:19 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

I've always disliked grain water agar, personally. There's much better options available, imo. Get some MEA, PDA, BRF agar, or whatever floats yer boat.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShroomish8
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 12/25/18
Posts: 14
Re: Genetic Degradation Using Grain Soak Agar, Whole Oats, & CVG [Re: HappinessStan]
    #28584314 - 12/15/23 06:29 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Quote:

HappinessStan said:
The amount of nutes coming from a slice of agar is minimal when compared to the amount of nutes coming from the grain spawn. You can send water agar to grain spawn. You're either chasing bad genetics or just have bad spawn. Got any photos of the plates?




Agreed the tiny piece of agar wouldn't do much when it's in the bag, but the theory was that the extended time growing out in plate after plate then grain is doing the damage. Not opposed to the idea that they are chasing bad genetics, just doubtful it would be that for every different variety. Bad spawn though, IDK. They are getting several flushes off some tubs without contam, so I would think the spawn is at least clean.



This is a decent looking first plate cloning fruit to agar. TBH plates usually look best when doing G2A. This one is about to be transferred to another grain water plate and a MEA plate for comparison. Will try to remember to update with pics.


Edited by Shroomish8 (12/15/23 06:41 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShroomish8
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 12/25/18
Posts: 14
Re: Genetic Degradation Using Grain Soak Agar, Whole Oats, & CVG [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #28584324 - 12/15/23 06:35 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Stipe-n Cap said:
I've always disliked grain water agar, personally. There's much better options available, imo. Get some MEA, PDA, BRF agar, or whatever floats yer boat.




At first, grain water plates were performing so much better than MEA, and that's why they switched over to GSA as the recipe of choice. Gonna have to explore PDA and/or new recipe for MEA. BRF is an interesting one too.

Most likely will try the suggested nutrients using recipes in this post by FrankHorrigan, unless you have any suggestions. Thanks for your insights!

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18676888/


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Genetic Degradation Using Grain Soak Agar, Whole Oats, & CVG [Re: Shroomish8] * 2
    #28584328 - 12/15/23 06:39 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

I'll take the liberty to shamelessly self promote my own thread :lol:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28188696#28188696


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShroomish8
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 12/25/18
Posts: 14
Re: Genetic Degradation Using Grain Soak Agar, Whole Oats, & CVG [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 1
    #28584377 - 12/15/23 07:35 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Stipe-n Cap said:
I'll take the liberty to shamelessly self promote my own thread :lol:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28188696#28188696




What an informative write-up! I'll take every bit of self-promotion you got after reading that :lol: Thanks for your advice man


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Genetic Degradation Using Grain Soak Agar, Whole Oats, & CVG [Re: Shroomish8]
    #28584388 - 12/15/23 07:40 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Any time:rockon:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Mushroom-Hut Substrate Mix   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   North Spore Bulk Substrate


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Soaking Agar ? Bi0TeK 504 3 05/27/03 05:56 PM
by Prisoner#1
* Grain soaking OJK 1,098 1 03/16/04 02:38 PM
by atomic1
* Grain soaking and post inoculation questions BambiEar 808 3 08/02/04 11:34 AM
by Nazrula
* Grain and Agar ?'s HoboWilly65 629 3 01/17/04 04:17 PM
by llamaboy
* Oats Audi0 4,893 10 03/16/03 06:34 PM
by Audi0
* Soaking Grain<---Quick ques??? KlingonFromUranus 1,374 8 06/18/03 01:17 PM
by MAGICSNOOP
* Should this work? (Grain) dansta 707 2 09/13/03 04:34 AM
by dansta
* Agar and cloning question xwave3000 1,754 2 02/25/04 10:51 AM
by Loki

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Shroomism, george castanza, RogerRabbit, veggie, mushboy, fahtster, LogicaL Chaos, 13shrooms, Stipe-n Cap, Pastywhyte, bodhisatta, Tormato, Land Trout, A.k.a
367 topic views. 42 members, 237 guests and 43 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.054 seconds spending 0.034 seconds on 18 queries.