Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5  [ show all ]
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Street protest * 2
    #28582309 - 12/14/23 08:07 AM (1 month, 13 days ago)

Is blocking traffic a legitimate/effective way to protest?

Does it deny a basic right to travel?

Should protestors be surprised when they get ran over?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #28582342 - 12/14/23 08:36 AM (1 month, 13 days ago)

Is blocking traffic a legitimate/effective way to protest? - Yes - if there are alternate routes.

Does it deny a basic right to travel? - Yes, unless there is an alternate route.

Should protestors be surprised when they get ran over? - Yes, and the perpetrator should face consequences.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,848
Last seen: 1 day, 3 hours
Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28582356 - 12/14/23 08:57 AM (1 month, 13 days ago)

Streets should only be blocked for parades and VIPs. Those are the legitimate reasons.

:kingcrankey:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
Re: Street protest [Re: Kickle]
    #28582400 - 12/14/23 09:41 AM (1 month, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Streets should only be blocked for parades and VIPs. Those are the legitimate reasons.

:kingcrankey:



I consider parades to be official theater, to which we must submit.
In Russia & Greece they drive military vehicles in the parades.
Noisy smelly and scary.

All the parades seem to be residue of military regimes, or funerals.
I protest against that.
but am not sticking my neck out nor do I wish to block the street with my body.

funerals are something we have to put up with.

Macy's shift to the Sanity Clause is a funny twist in street blocking.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28584173 - 12/15/23 04:35 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Is blocking traffic a legitimate/effective way to protest?

Does it deny a basic right to travel?

Should protestors be surprised when they get ran over?





Legitimacy is often in idea used to deny personal responsibility. For example, instead of saying I don't want you to do something, I say what you are doing isn't legitimate.

Effective? Sometimes it seems that way. Seems to work well for unions and Ghandis.

Rights are not something that exist outside of thought, so it depends how you think about it.

Should indicates an obligation, which is also something that doesn't exist outside of thought. So it depends how you think about it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28584337 - 12/15/23 06:48 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Perhaps a poor choice of semantics, by legitimate I mean useful/helpful/effective way to promote whatever cause is being advanced.

And yes of course, rights don't exist outside of thought. Within thought there are qualities, judgements, concepts, logic, etc. When it comes to basic rights, humans have the "right" to go about their work as long as it doesn't infringe on the liberty of others. There are commonalities in agency and what work and play and function mean. These things are fundamental to being, remaining alive and enjoying life. One could suggest that infringing on the liberty of others is synonymous with infringing on a right. This is I think the basis of 'natural law' and should be the basis of public, private and common law.

Nobody has the right to arbitrarily impede people from moving about. I don't disagree that it can be effective but I do question whether there might be a more useful, helpful, effective way of advancing a cause that doesn't include pissing people off or scaring the crap out of them. I suppose that's true for many things in life.

Impromptu standing in the road increases one's chances of being hit by a car. By should I simply meant is surprise logically justifiable? And certainly, driving over people should be frowned upon but that only goes so far in making standing in the road a reasonably safe thing to do.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28584344 - 12/15/23 06:55 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

I don't feel like I have any rights or lack of any rights. I can't help but make the best decision I can in each moment, and the concept of rights doesn't seem to apply at all.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28584382 - 12/15/23 07:37 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

If you don't feel it you don't feel it but should people be able to run over protestors? Should people be able to stand in the road? Answering with opinions are valid answers. IOW, agreement and consensus through consideration of argument is just thought, but such is much of philosophy and various other aspects of life. Natural law would suggest that yes of course a person can do whatever they can and will, but if it involves infringing on the liberty of others this could be consideration for the infringed (or a third party) to infringe on the infringer to end the infringement. There are issues which arise that aren't perhaps trivial by virtue of being thought when they're based on not thought but action, and potentially action in response.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28584483 - 12/15/23 08:28 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

blocking traffic peacefully (unless it is a fire engine or an ambulance) with soft bodies is not impacting life and death,
however, running people over is impacting in that way, it's horrifyingly illegal and dangerous behavior.


that is not personal opinion.
one is man slaughter and the other is an expression of free speech, maybe not 100% lawfully (if no street occupancy permit had been obtained), but not a serious offense, not even the breaking of glass - not even touching - it's peaceful obstruction.

you can't say there are good people on both sides of that. really.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28584539 - 12/15/23 09:11 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Are you suggesting I've equated blocking traffic with manslaughter? lol.

And you agree it's not lawful to hang out in the road i.e. not a right. Is there some guarantee that such actions won't impact a fire engine or ambulance? Even barring that consideration does mean it's fine to make little Suzie late for recital? And I'm sure you're aware street protest are inflammatory so the nature of it being "peaceful" is questionable. Peaceful obstruction seems an oxymoron to me.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28584611 - 12/15/23 10:30 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Saying someone should act a certain way is like saying a sunrise or earthquake should act a certain way.

Yeah I like sunsets that are really bright pink, and I like earthquakes to be very very mild, and I like people to be kind and understanding of each other. If protesters are going to stop traffic, I hope its worth it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28584627 - 12/15/23 10:45 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Are you equating impeding traffic and manslaughter with a sunrise, as if to say they're things which nothing can be done about?

If nothing can be done about it (I think we both know that's not true) then logically nothing should be done about it. I.E. laws and "rights" are pointless concepts?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28584728 - 12/15/23 11:59 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

I think something can be done about it.

maybe we understand the word should differently. To me it implies obligation.

I prefer to think in terms of benefiting or harming people.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28584863 - 12/16/23 05:13 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

When driving little suzie use an ALEF

https://alef.aero/preorder.html

and yes if an unpermitted street occupancy does block a fire engine, the obstructors are prosecuted - not for manslaughter but there is a legal provision underwhich they go to jail and are fined.

worse if someone dies of course.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28584990 - 12/16/23 07:39 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
maybe we understand the word should differently. To me it implies obligation.




It's a matter of context, which isn't usually hard to decipher if a particular context isn't assumed.

"1— used in auxiliary function to express condition
2 —used in auxiliary function to express obligation, propriety, or expediency
3 —used in auxiliary function to express futurity from a point of view in the past
4 —used in auxiliary function to express what is probable or expected
5 —used in auxiliary function to express a request in a polite manner or to soften direct statement"


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28585064 - 12/16/23 08:53 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
maybe we understand the word should differently. To me it implies obligation.




It's a matter of context, which isn't usually hard to decipher if a particular context isn't assumed.

"1— used in auxiliary function to express condition
2 —used in auxiliary function to express obligation, propriety, or expediency
3 —used in auxiliary function to express futurity from a point of view in the past
4 —used in auxiliary function to express what is probable or expected
5 —used in auxiliary function to express a request in a polite manner or to soften direct statement"




I try to never assume context.

i see defintion 4 as a probablity or expection is bolded. I take that to be used like, "The millenial falcon should hold up, but I'm not completely sure."

so in the definition, i would say protesters in general probably won't block the street, but they might. I feel confident from the context thats not the defition you were using though.

I try not expect anything from anyone though, as predicting the future is notoriously challenging.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28585077 - 12/16/23 09:06 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

my personal opinion about the situation is that it depends.

like if you could save a million lives by blocking traffic with a protest, seems beneficial

but say you achieved nothing and someone died, well then it wasn't worth it and it was harmful

Even in one particular situation, we can't know what all the consequences will be. We can't know if we will cause benefit or harm ahead of time.

and when you look at how cause and effect ripples out through time, the consequences become even more difficult to understand.

I think each person has no choice but to attempt to make the best decision in each moment, shaped by their perspective. Perspectives can't evaluate themselves because they can never step out of themselves to compare to another, we are always locked into our perspective, even if our perspective is dynamic.

Because I can't evaluate my perspective or my opinions with anything other than my perspective and my opinions, I cannot know if how i see things is right or good or true or ultimately beneficial.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28585141 - 12/16/23 09:54 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
I feel confident from the context thats not the defition you were using though.





Ugh. I already clarified what I meant. "Should someone be surprised?" speaking to the question of what expectation is logical or reasonable. They are of course not "obligated" to experience a lack of surprise, but it's really not surprising in my estimation and I did detail the reasons for that :shrug:

I try not to assume things either but still do at times.

And while I don't disagree with all your logic in the second response I would argue that one doesn't need to know the ultimate outcome of something to have an opinion on what is okay. My opinion is that it's not okay to run people over absent an extreme danger and that it's not okay to arbitrarily inconvenience people not knowing what consequences there may be for the inconvenienced... not that further consequence necessarily matters as being inconvenienced is the first order consequence.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28585146 - 12/16/23 10:01 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

I couldn't judge something only on how reasonable or logical it seems to me. Logic and reason are part of how I may judge someothing, but values, desires and delsuions play into it as well.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28585148 - 12/16/23 10:03 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

For example its not purely logical to want anything

its not logical to want people to be safe, or to whnt your people to be free.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28585686 - 12/16/23 05:07 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Agreed to the first line but in the second you remove purely. That there is an underlying basis which is not rational doesn't mean there are no logical arguments that support (are based on the concept of) freedom.

I agree not to infringe on your liberty and hopefully you will agree to not infringe on mine. What we hold fair for ourselves in that regard we should hold fair for others. Another may not agree but it's no surprise when an infringement of liberty results in another infringement of liberty of some kind, official or otherwise. The basis for rights and support of rights. It's all in the mind but that doesn't mean it's not important or relevant to what's happening and what will happen.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28585739 - 12/16/23 05:57 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

I think people justify their desires with reason, and then imagine they are motivated by the reason.

But I'm hungry. I can rationalize it, I can describe all the trillions of things happening in all the cells and say its logical, but hunger doesn't care if I agree with it or not. It isn't logical, even if my logic agrees with it. Its like if you have a million billion monkees typing away randomly, nothing they are righting comes from logic, however by chance one may right something i can agree with logically.

Where logic seems to come in is finding strategies to fulfill our desires. Like I'm hungary. Reason really helps to get food, or grow food, or store food, or even cook food or transport it etc.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28585834 - 12/16/23 06:34 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

like do your own thing, and don't mess with me doing my own thing.
The old Hippie motto!

And then there are some shared things that have their own rules.
like the road
and the right to assemble, and publicly protest about something shared, in a space that is shared.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28586026 - 12/16/23 08:14 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
I think people justify their desires with reason, and then imagine they are motivated by the reason.

But I'm hungry. I can rationalize it, I can describe all the trillions of things happening in all the cells and say its logical, but hunger doesn't care if I agree with it or not. It isn't logical, even if my logic agrees with it. Its like if you have a million billion monkees typing away randomly, nothing they are righting comes from logic, however by chance one may right something i can agree with logically.

Where logic seems to come in is finding strategies to fulfill our desires. Like I'm hungary. Reason really helps to get food, or grow food, or store food, or even cook food or transport it etc.




Fundamental questions about hunger lead to questions about the nature of reality. Outside curiosity perhaps there's no point or reason in trying to justify being hungry, but clearly there's logic in eating something to sustain one's life if that is what someone wants to do. On this I think we agree.

Pretty much everyone wants to eat and there is purpose/reason in doing so regardless of whether there is rationality in being hungry to begin with.

Yes, logic finds strategies to fill desires but it can also inform of when there might be undesirable outcomes. Who will seriously question whether it's okay for people to eat food? Contrast this with the agreeability of running people down with vehicles.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28586033 - 12/16/23 08:23 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

I think if you look at the person driving the vehicle, there will be a 'drive' similar to hunger motivating their actions, their actions being a (most likely extremely unskillful) strategy to satisfy the drive

whether or not the strategy helps them meet their needs depends on the situation.

luckily most people aren't sociopaths, so they have drives and needs that prevent extreme forms of manipulation and harm towards others


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28586102 - 12/16/23 09:29 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
luckily most people aren't sociopaths, so they have drives and needs that prevent extreme forms of manipulation and harm towards others




But there are forms of manipulation and harm toward others, which leads back to reason for enumerating rights so I'm not sure what you're point is. Rights don't exist, as if to suggest the principles/logic behind the idea of them hold no value?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28586352 - 12/17/23 05:45 AM (1 month, 10 days ago)

how did rights stop existing and any social structure remain?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28586366 - 12/17/23 05:56 AM (1 month, 10 days ago)

As we've been discussing rights are mental postulations. They ebb and flow. Social structure can exist in absence of rights. Slavery comes to mind. There are still rights but only for the few.

And while it's debatable, investment firms buying up all the houses at inflated prices with the intention of renting them out in perpetuity leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28586385 - 12/17/23 06:23 AM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
As we've been discussing rights are mental postulations. They ebb and flow. Social structure can exist in absence of rights. Slavery comes to mind. There are still rights but only for the few.

And while it's debatable, investment firms buying up all the houses at inflated prices with the intention of renting them out in perpetuity leaves a bad taste in my mouth.



so you agree that
the erosion of rights leads to slavery
and
investment companies have no imagination (of what to do with the money) and think that they have a right to make everyone miserable by grabbing up other people's property rights.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRJ Tubs 202
Male


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,010
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 12 hours, 4 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28586400 - 12/17/23 06:38 AM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:

Is blocking traffic a legitimate/effective way to protest?

Does it deny a basic right to travel?




I've seen people passionately argue that blocking someone's car, so they are not able to drive, falls within the definition of kidnapping.

I'm unsure what to think about that


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28586406 - 12/17/23 06:44 AM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
As we've been discussing rights are mental postulations. They ebb and flow. Social structure can exist in absence of rights. Slavery comes to mind. There are still rights but only for the few.

And while it's debatable, investment firms buying up all the houses at inflated prices with the intention of renting them out in perpetuity leaves a bad taste in my mouth.



so you agree that
the erosion of rights leads to slavery
and
investment companies have no imagination (of what to do with the money) and think that they have a right to make everyone miserable by grabbing up other people's property rights.




Mostly, though I think investment companies have imagination... just not the imagination we might like them to have.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28586409 - 12/17/23 06:46 AM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

Rahz said:

Is blocking traffic a legitimate/effective way to protest?

Does it deny a basic right to travel?




I've seen people passionately argue that blocking someone's car, so they are not able to drive, falls within the definition of kidnapping.

I'm unsure what to think about that




I don't agree but they both fall under the definition of limiting liberty.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28586536 - 12/17/23 08:50 AM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
luckily most people aren't sociopaths, so they have drives and needs that prevent extreme forms of manipulation and harm towards others




But there are forms of manipulation and harm toward others, which leads back to reason for enumerating rights so I'm not sure what you're point is. Rights don't exist, as if to suggest the principles/logic behind the idea of them hold no value?





I think laws can be based on principles and logic.

A right is a fundamental entitlement for being human. I don't think I'm entitled or have the right to life, or the right to liberty, or food or medicine or anything. My life depends on everyone else through exchange. we can make agreements about exchange, but to elevate those agreements to something like a right and to imagine that this creation called a right has some kind of reality seems way off to me.

why not just use laws or agreements?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28586567 - 12/17/23 09:15 AM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Some people consider some rights to be fundamental. I have not made that claim. I don't believe in God, therefore don't believe in God given rights, though I think the logic in such opinions is in line with the principles/logic of natural law.

It seems you've applied a definition that you can refute. Certainly imo, rights are things which have to be agreed upon by some critical mass of individuals, otherwise we don't have them. This is why I mentioned that your opinion on the questions I was asking would be a valid response.

That being said, I hope this clears up the semantics I used in the OP.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28586587 - 12/17/23 09:50 AM (1 month, 10 days ago)

I didn't pick a defiition just to refute it. its my understanding of how the word is used. Here's an example from chatGTP:

Quote:

what is the differnce between rights and laws
ChatGPT
Rights and laws are related concepts, but they refer to different aspects of the legal and societal framework. Here's a brief explanation of the differences between rights and laws:

Nature:

Rights: Rights are inherent, fundamental entitlements or freedoms that individuals possess by virtue of being human. These rights are often considered universal and inalienable, meaning they cannot be taken away or surrendered. Examples include the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Laws: Laws, on the other hand, are rules and regulations established by a governing authority (such as a government) to regulate behavior within a society. Laws are created to maintain order, protect rights, and ensure justice.
Source:

Rights: Rights are often considered natural or human rights, derived from philosophical and ethical principles. Many countries recognize these rights in their constitutions or legal frameworks.
Laws: Laws are created by governments or legislative bodies. They are formal rules that are enforced by the government, and they can vary from one jurisdiction to another.
Enforcement:

Rights: While rights are inherent, their protection and enforcement may depend on legal systems and mechanisms. Legal systems, such as courts, may be involved in upholding and protecting individual rights.
Laws: Laws are enforced by government authorities. Violations of laws can result in legal consequences, such as fines, imprisonment, or other penalties.
Scope:

Rights: Rights are broad principles that are not always specific to particular situations or actions. They provide a general framework for human dignity and freedom.
Laws: Laws are specific rules that address particular behaviors or actions within a society. They can cover a wide range of issues, from criminal activities to contract disputes.
Change:

Rights: Rights are often seen as enduring and resistant to change. Changes to the recognition and protection of rights may involve amendments to constitutions or international agreements.
Laws: Laws can be changed through the legislative process. Legislators have the authority to create, amend, or repeal laws based on the evolving needs and values of society.
In summary, rights are inherent entitlements that individuals possess, often considered universal and inalienable, while laws are rules created by governing authorities to regulate behavior within a society. Rights provide a foundational framework, and laws serve as the specific rules and regulations that govern a community.




Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28586600 - 12/17/23 10:05 AM (1 month, 10 days ago)

here's an older example of the use of the word :smile:

Quote:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men




my view is not that people have rights, but people have needs. and instead of making universal decalrations about everybody, my preference is just for people to make agreements with each other about their needs. These agreements can be anything from a head nod to a law. (old maried couples seem to be able to communicate a lot with a head nod :smile:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28586621 - 12/17/23 10:26 AM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
I didn't pick a defiition just to refute it. its my understanding of how the word is used. Here's an example from chatGTP:





Perhaps not intentionally, but still selective. Let's not pretend the only potential rights are inherent God given rights or with other mystical interjection.

From Cornell "A right is a power or privilege held by the general public or someone as the result of a law, such as a constitution, statute, regulation, or judicial precedent."

From Dictionary.com "Rights are the legal or moral entitlements of people or groups to act or be treated in a certain way."

From Britannica.com "Civil rights, guarantees of equal social opportunities and equal protection under the law regardless of race, religion, or other personal characteristics."

Human rights are considered fundamental, perhaps to some because of a belief in God or other supposition, or perhaps simply because humans tend to agree they apply to everyone.

I understand ChatGPT is not the be all end all of knowledge and definition of words. Maybe don't lean on it too heavily. I hear Grok is pretty good but I would still hesitate to take it's word on anything.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28586644 - 12/17/23 10:50 AM (1 month, 10 days ago)

I never claimed that my understanding of a word is the only or most correct understanding, my claim is that its sincere.





when I look at this definition of "right",

Quote:

a power or privilege held by the general public or someone as the result of a law




then a right appears to be the positive side of a restictive law. For example its against the law to murder someone, so we could possibly infer that there is a right to life. Laws against theft imply a right to ownership.


So the laws prohibiting blocking traffic may imply a right to travel without being blocked in the specific ways the law says you can't block traffic.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRJ Tubs 202
Male


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,010
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 12 hours, 4 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28586702 - 12/17/23 11:26 AM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Laws prohibiting murder and theft simply notify us of a potential punishment if we get caught.  It's like the road signs that say, "Speed limit enforced by radar".  That is simply untrue.  No drivers speed is enforced by radar.  I appreciate idealism, but I confess that any belief in a "guarantee" of anything when it comes to human behaviors makes me laugh.  But I appreciate the ideal and the goal.  Just like I embrace the Golden Rule.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28586727 - 12/17/23 11:46 AM (1 month, 10 days ago)

its true, a law doesn't actually give power or privilage


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28586809 - 12/17/23 12:47 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
then a right appears to be the positive side of a restictive law. For example its against the law to murder someone, so we could possibly infer that there is a right to life. Laws against theft imply a right to ownership.


So the laws prohibiting blocking traffic may imply a right to travel without being blocked in the specific ways the law says you can't block traffic.




I think we agree here, but when you take exception to what I consider the legitimate use of words, 'rights' or 'should' I will point out there are generally accepted semantics to support my use of those words, hoping for not specifically for consensus but at least enough understanding to facilitate the conversation.

And while I don't mind exploring semantics I might think there is some level of disingenuity in saying "its my understanding of how the word is used" when I suppose you're aware those words are and have been used in other ways.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28586820 - 12/17/23 12:57 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

From the context of the OP I made an assumption about your use of the word. I don't understand why you would ask the question from a legal perspective, as we can just look up the law, there doesn't seem much to discuss there

i don't see anyone's use of words as legitimate or illegitmate, words can be used in lots of ways. it takes skill both to speak or write and to comprehend someone. to expect it to always work seems like a set up to be disapointed. especially on the internet. you don't know much about me and my background and the context i use to understand words.

if you assume insincerity, there isn't much possible here


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28586848 - 12/17/23 01:23 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

I know you're an intelligent perceptive adult who's been alive for a while. That's all I need to know to suppose you're aware the word is used in more ways than you suggested. Not the same as your understanding.

Law is ultimately based on individual opinions which is what I was asking for. If that wasn't clear it should have been when I mentioned your opinion being a valid answer.

In so much as I do know you, I don't know why this was necessary. I wonder.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #28586857 - 12/17/23 01:32 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

In Canada we have a charter of rights and freedoms
I think it is a good start


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28604212 - 12/31/23 06:41 AM (27 days, 12 hours ago)

In addition to the possibility of them being officially taken away, rights and freedoms end if the power structure simply quits enforcing them, or selectively enforces them.

A thread I started a couple years ago, where I argued there were no rights, only privileges.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27589512#27589512

Different semantics, but my position hasn't really changed. The reason I'm bumping this thread. I watched a speech by Yuval Noah Harari.

His argument is that rights are like religion. They're fiction.

I disagree. Religion is true or false no matter how many people believe. But the more people believe in rights the more we actually have them.

I take issue with the idea of God given rights. As if they exist regardless of whether people believe they exist. While it's geared toward making them above reproach it also abdicates responsibility to some level. If a right is God given, right will win the day. For a Western person who's lived in relative freedom their whole life perhaps this makes sense.

What makes a right "fundamental"? Agreeing that a person has a freedom even if we don't want them to. This notion is I suppose as old as time in the minds of various individuals but was recorded to a degree in ancient Greece (citizens have rights) which influenced the Enlightenment. What's interesting is that the widespread adoption of fundamental rights can be associated with the same period in which religion began to be openly disputed. An issue at the time was the inability to abandon religion all together and instead Deism became popular. There was still one might surmise a potential fiction that supported the existence of rights.

Anyway, the reason I started this thread. A lot of people seem to think there's nothing wrong with blocking traffic in street protests, as in, the question of liberty never enters their mind or is discussed.

I consider Modern Liberalism to be the continuation of the Enlightenment. Is Modern Liberalism dying? Perhaps that would have been a better thread title.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28604331 - 12/31/23 08:36 AM (27 days, 10 hours ago)

Nice Rhaz, I love that version of rights.

In the US the conflict escalation has led to rhetoric where politicians are pushing a disenfranchisement view. On the left its minority groups that are disenfrachised, on the right its everybody on the right.

So perhaps part of whats happening is people feel less invested in shared rights when they feel like they aren't included.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleNillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #28604461 - 12/31/23 10:39 AM (27 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Is blocking traffic a legitimate/effective way to protest?




Legit?
Sure.

Effective?
I doubt it.

Intelligent?
I don't think so.

Dangerous?
I think it can result in a Darwin award.

I'm not even sure lining up on sidewalks and screaming at people is productive either.

I think that's amateur-testing, not pro-testing.

A salient point seems to be a lot more productive than acting like a member of the Westboro Baptist Church.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28605567 - 01/01/24 09:01 AM (26 days, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Nice Rhaz, I love that version of rights.

In the US the conflict escalation has led to rhetoric where politicians are pushing a disenfranchisement view. On the left its minority groups that are disenfrachised, on the right its everybody on the right.

So perhaps part of whats happening is people feel less invested in shared rights when they feel like they aren't included.




I think we share a lot of opinions. Our semantics differ somewhat. I suppose that's pretty normal.

FWIW, I highlighted two definitions, not to say I was right and you were wrong. I assumed you saw that, but often my assumptions are part of the problem.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #28606341 - 01/01/24 07:13 PM (26 days, 20 minutes ago)

I really like this point:

Quote:

I disagree. Religion is true or false no matter how many people believe. But the more people believe in rights the more we actually have them.




Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom] * 1
    #28613921 - 01/08/24 10:10 AM (19 days, 9 hours ago)

Another consideration when I made this post. Many on the right who supported the Ottawa protests frown on the Palestinian street protests. Many on the left supporting the current street protests frowned on the Ottawa protests.

I though it was a good example of how tenuously people support liberty. In both cases the argument can be made that people had their liberty infringed upon. In both cases the proponents will state it was a just action, an infringement of liberty to address an infringement of liberty. In both cases people who had nothing to do with the stated infringement were infringed upon.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28613991 - 01/08/24 11:00 AM (19 days, 8 hours ago)

Wait a minute, are you equating occupying the streets with heavy machinery with occupying the streets with people?
Ottawa was physically under siege with an organized blockade, that is not a street protest.
Removal of the blockade required heavy machinery, removal of street protestors only requires a few police. The scale of it is astonishingly different, and the issues also astonishingly different.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28613998 - 01/08/24 11:06 AM (19 days, 8 hours ago)

I'm not unaware of that. It's not the scope but the support along political lines that I find interesting. I suppose it would be equally valid to bring up the BLM riots, 2 billion in damages and 20 lives lost. American politicians on the left egged it on.

In all these cases, whether individuals trying to travel, or stay alive, or keep their property, there was obvious infringement of liberty.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28614000 - 01/08/24 11:07 AM (19 days, 8 hours ago)

t
Quote:

Rahz said:
Another consideration when I made this post. Many on the right who supported the Ottawa protests frown on the Palestinian street protests. Many on the left supporting the current street protests frowned on the Ottawa protests.

I though it was a good example of how tenuously people support liberty. In both cases the argument can be made that people had their liberty infringed upon. In both cases the proponents will state it was a just action, an infringement of liberty to address an infringement of liberty. In both cases people who had nothing to do with the stated infringement were infringed upon.





i think this is one of those ethical dilema things like with the train tracks

maybe part of the trouble is there aren't clear answers, but our binary tendencies are searching for right and wrong


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28614022 - 01/08/24 11:29 AM (19 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I'm not unaware of that. It's not the scope but the support along political lines that I find interesting. I suppose it would be equally valid to bring up the BLM riots, 2 billion in damages and 20 lives lost. American politicians on the left egged it on.

In all these cases, whether individuals trying to travel, or stay alive, or keep their property, there was obvious infringement of liberty.



can you support the fact that the left "egged that on" in the BLM story line, I am aware that the right was pushing to suppress and clear the streets by force, but I am not aware of any egging on in the way that Trump egged on the insurection. The left did oppose the idea of suppression by force, that is not egging on IMO.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28614066 - 01/08/24 12:32 PM (19 days, 7 hours ago)

I can but of course, it's a nuanced issue. Without clarifications (which didn't get the publicity the original comments got) it's not a stretch to make that case. Clarifications were made. Whether for clarity or for covering their ass is debatable so just one example. Maxine Waters, after much damage and loss of life said "“I hope we get a verdict that says guilty, guilty, guilty, and if we don’t, we cannot go away. We’ve got to stay on the street. We get more active, we’ve got to get more confrontational. We’ve got to make sure that they know that we mean business.” She later clarified when asked that it was the protests and not the riots that needed to be more confrontational despite the atmosphere at the time which suggested that if Chauvin was found innocent there would definitely be an increase in violence and infringement of liberty on random people.

It is the same with Trump. He urged his followers to fight like hell to prevent an illegitimate president, but in the same speech said "I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard."

The interesting thing (for me) is that opinions on clarity or ass covering are highly dependent on political orientation. I tend to see it all as dubious behavior and ass covering. Both sides seem to believe only the other side is capable of dog whistling.

I will point out that there were some pretty bad riots in the 60's. If it was entirely peaceful, would we have the civil rights we have today? That's not a question I make assumptions about. In an idealistic sense I like to think so but at any rate it was a successful movement. One could also say the convoy in Alberta was successful. It changed the political landscape via resignations and policy changes. And the number one indicator of whether it was just or unjust to infringe on the liberty of random people, political orientation.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28614084 - 01/08/24 12:56 PM (19 days, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
... She later clarified when asked that it was the protests and not the riots that needed to be more confrontational despite the atmosphere at the time which suggested that if Chauvin was found innocent there would definitely be an increase in violence and infringement of liberty on random people.
...



and what did you think about Chauvin's right to extinguish the life out of a shoplifter.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28614095 - 01/08/24 01:08 PM (19 days, 6 hours ago)

I don't believe death is an appropriate punishment for shoplifting. I think it's odd you would even phrase the question.

Return question. If Chauvin was found not guilty would you have supported continued looting and burning?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28614126 - 01/08/24 01:46 PM (19 days, 5 hours ago)

I would have supported further investigation.
In any case, at least you realize that this was about not one improper arrest with deadly consequences, but that there is a legacy of outrageous crime committed by police forces against blacks, which needs to be rectified.
The riots are not due to one wrongful death. It is a huge issue, and not exactly something we should be left and right about - unless right means racist abuse is good fun, and I think that is not the case.

Now lets pull back and have a peek at the occupation of Ottawa, wasn't that about mask mandates and immunization misinformation? The enemy in this case is the virus, and people have to work together to manage viral infection cycles especially when millions were dying who had a lot to offer in life.

I don't think this is apples and apples,
not even apples and oranges,
but in comparing the two types of social unrest, you are going for apples and nutbars here, which tastes ok, but makes no sense really at all.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28614149 - 01/08/24 02:11 PM (19 days, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

I would have supported further investigation.




Until you got the answer you wanted? My apologies if I've read too much into your words!

So you believe the issue of liberty in regard to individuals who obviously didn't commit original infringements isn't a commonality in these protests? Assuming you answer in the negative, is it me or you that's trying to obfuscate that basic premise that I thought was interesting enough to post about? Is it me or you that's trying to give the context of this thread a political bent?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28614177 - 01/08/24 02:45 PM (19 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

I would have supported further investigation.




Until you got the answer you wanted? My apologies if I've read too much into your words!

So you believe the issue of liberty in regard to individuals who obviously didn't commit original infringements isn't a commonality in these protests? Assuming you answer in the negative, is it me or you that's trying to obfuscate that basic premise that I thought was interesting enough to post about? Is it me or you that's trying to give the context of this thread a political bent?



please rephrase this.
I am not able to understand what you are getting at.
or what you are reacting to.

I said I would have supported further investigation into what was already exposed as a crime on video.
i.e. who is blocking the investigations and why.
I might expect several efforts to stall and block, but when everyone knows that a lethal crime has been committed, covering it up is not an option that anyone can assume with dignity.

is that what you are talking about?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28614216 - 01/08/24 03:20 PM (19 days, 4 hours ago)

You could have just said yes. :wink:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28614335 - 01/08/24 05:45 PM (19 days, 1 hour ago)

what would I have been agreeing to with that yes, and I asked for some clarification or rephrasing, but I am not blocking the street about it, that is not my way.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28614393 - 01/08/24 06:43 PM (19 days, 50 minutes ago)

You understood well enough to answer. I'm glad you are not blocking the street.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28614695 - 01/09/24 12:03 AM (18 days, 19 hours ago)

I think its a good point about identification bias. Identify with nation, party, culture, family.... we see what we identify with in a better light and what we don't in a worse light.

and then how this impacts our decisions. the examples in this thread are of situations where people feel compelled to make the less of two evil type decisions. Like is it a better evil to lose a liberty or to block traffic (not that these are necessarily accurate, complete, sane or logical evaluations, which is a different topic).

In the lesser of two evil situations, we tend to be biased towards the evil that benefits ourselves or group we identify with. We tend to have less empathy and compassion for those we identify less with.

When we think our liberty or groups liberty is taken away, or important needs are blocked from being fulfilled, it can create a sense of righteous justice that further erodes empathy and compassion and blocks reasoned understanding.


Edited by Freedom (01/09/24 12:04 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28614769 - 01/09/24 03:58 AM (18 days, 15 hours ago)

Personally I would avoid any taking of hostages in street occupancy or other modes of protest.
but also I would avoid making human shields out of children and non-political participants in demonstrations.

and in escalations to war, human shielding and the death of children must be avoided equally.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28615023 - 01/09/24 09:28 AM (18 days, 10 hours ago)

it happens in much more subtle ways as well


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCory Duchesne
tabernacle
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/05/16
Posts: 915
Loc: Nova Scotia
Last seen: 2 days, 2 hours
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28615239 - 01/09/24 12:53 PM (18 days, 6 hours ago)

Native American Taboos. (Diné) Some things... You just don't do.





^ Somewhat related to street protest. I don't know what to say to anyone who owns a car or drives an armored vehicle other than, "I have less than you, so you should leave me alone."


--------------------
C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know."

"I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung

Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti

"All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]


Edited by Cory Duchesne (01/09/24 12:53 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMacD
Stranger
Registered: 09/01/23
Posts: 10
Last seen: 10 hours, 58 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Cory Duchesne]
    #28628113 - 01/20/24 05:24 AM (7 days, 14 hours ago)

When people block roads with their bodies they are taking a chance that the person who they are stopping isn't having a bad day and the self righteous protestor isn't the final straw. Also a lot of older people watched on tv what happened to Reginald Denny when he stopped his truck for the Rodney King protestors. I watched it and will not stop if the protestors seem violent.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJoh.Ke
Stranger
Registered: 07/03/23
Posts: 346
Last seen: 4 hours, 18 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: MacD]
    #28629651 - 01/21/24 09:41 AM (6 days, 9 hours ago)

Protestors block roads because they are unable to change the behavior of their true target, which most of the times is the government.  They hope by disrupting the lives of regular people, this will prompt the government to address their grievance.


Edited by Joh.Ke (01/21/24 09:42 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
Re: Street protest [Re: Joh.Ke]
    #28629805 - 01/21/24 12:48 PM (6 days, 6 hours ago)

blocking people as a negotiating tactic is akin to hostage taking as a negotiation tactic.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28629935 - 01/21/24 02:34 PM (6 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
blocking people as a negotiating tactic is akin to hostage taking as a negotiation tactic.




Driving around a blocked street seems a lot different to me than forcibly held against my will


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28630291 - 01/21/24 06:28 PM (6 days, 1 hour ago)

when you drive around, you have not been taken hostage,
but all the people who need to access addresses that are blocked are being taken hostage.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28630419 - 01/21/24 08:30 PM (5 days, 23 hours ago)

If I were walking down the sidewalk and someone blocked my way despite attempts to walk around them and they said "I can't let you pass because I'm using you as a photo op" it would be a problem. And there's no promise that traffic is light and turning around is an easy option. As alluded to in the OP, some people are going to feel threatened and drive through. Their travel is already being infringed. There's no guarantee the nice people blocking traffic are going to respect their other liberties.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28630857 - 01/22/24 10:03 AM (5 days, 9 hours ago)

Its not easy to try to get your needs met without causing conflict escalation in some situations.

I don't think causing a disturbance is an ideal part of a strategy to get one's needs met. But if other attempts fail, what should someone do?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28630864 - 01/22/24 10:12 AM (5 days, 9 hours ago)

plan B


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,848
Last seen: 1 day, 3 hours
Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28630893 - 01/22/24 10:37 AM (5 days, 8 hours ago)

I once felt held hostage because they were filming a movie and closed the street.

:kingcrankey:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28630924 - 01/22/24 11:09 AM (5 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
plan B




so say my house is on fire

my need for shelter is threatened. if i call the fire depeartment, they will likely block the street while putting the fire out. what should my plan b be?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
Re: Street protest [Re: Kickle]
    #28630928 - 01/22/24 11:12 AM (5 days, 8 hours ago)

It's always nasty when we are bullied about
in the shared domain by private use of public space.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,848
Last seen: 1 day, 3 hours
Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28631016 - 01/22/24 12:29 PM (5 days, 7 hours ago)

I think there are socially accepted reasons to stop traffic. Protests may not be a socially acceptable reason if members of the society do not accept the cause as reasonable.

Which is a tad absurd given the nature of most socially accepted reasons IMO, e.g. entertainment.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28631056 - 01/22/24 01:05 PM (5 days, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Its not easy to try to get your needs met without causing conflict escalation in some situations.

I don't think causing a disturbance is an ideal part of a strategy to get one's needs met. But if other attempts fail, what should someone do?




I got no answers. I don't think karma simply disappears even under the best of resolutions. But I started this thread because it seemed people very often are more than willing to disregard individual liberty when there's a cause they find agreeable.

It speaks to the timelessness of the human condition just as much as whatever current protest is happening.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28631065 - 01/22/24 01:18 PM (5 days, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
Its not easy to try to get your needs met without causing conflict escalation in some situations.

I don't think causing a disturbance is an ideal part of a strategy to get one's needs met. But if other attempts fail, what should someone do?




I got no answers. I don't think karma simply disappears even under the best of resolutions. But I started this thread because it seemed people very often are more than willing to disregard individual liberty when there's a cause they find agreeable.

It speaks to the timelessness of the human condition just as much as whatever current protest is happening.





I think this happens because a person or group isn't getting their needs met and can't find a way to get their needs met. They see other people or groups getting their needs met. The other people or groups ignore them, don't believe, or don't see their unmet needs. Therefore the people or groups with unmet needs see escalation as the only means to getting their needs met. You basically force the other party to be in the same boat, to see that our needs are interdependent.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28631085 - 01/22/24 01:53 PM (5 days, 5 hours ago)

I would rephrase to, people are having their rights infringed, therefore we will infringe on the rights of random people in hopes the authority will quit supporting the original infringement.

With that level of desperation the choices are, accept that a group of people's rights are being infringed OR infringe on even more people's rights in hopes that fewer people's rights get infringed.

I think even when affirmative action is taken, the nature of the problem remains. Everyone divided and alone because a critical percentage of humanity is willing to infringe on basic rights.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28631167 - 01/22/24 03:05 PM (5 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I would rephrase to, people are having their rights infringed, therefore we will infringe on the rights of random people in hopes the authority will quit supporting the original infringement.

With that level of desperation the choices are, accept that a group of people's rights are being infringed OR infringe on even more people's rights in hopes that fewer people's rights get infringed.

I think even when affirmative action is taken, the nature of the problem remains. Everyone divided and alone because a critical percentage of humanity is willing to infringe on basic rights.




I like the perspective of needs better than rights in this situation, because it points the seriousness and validatory underlying the motivation.

Like I have a need for food and water and shelter and exchange with others. Yes in the social contract I may have a theoretical right to these things, but the need trumps that right and isn't something i have a choice about.

I don't think people infringe on other's rights because they feel entitled to, I think its because they are either ignorant of the cosequences of their action or lack of action, or because they feel they have no other choice and its the lesser of evils


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28631180 - 01/22/24 03:17 PM (5 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

I don't think people infringe on other's rights because they feel entitled to...




Then apparently you have not been paying close enough attention.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,847
Last seen: 20 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Street protest [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #28631215 - 01/22/24 03:48 PM (5 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

I don't think people infringe on other's rights because they feel entitled to...




Then apparently you have not been paying close enough attention.






its in looking more closely at people that the idea of them just feeling entitled falls apart

sure maybe some people like sociopaths might put a sense of entitlement above others' needs or rights


Edited by Freedom (01/22/24 03:49 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28631266 - 01/22/24 04:54 PM (5 days, 2 hours ago)

maybe they just haven't questioned their apparent entitled behavior.

(means the same thing)


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* cognitive liberty redgreenvines 957 17 01/21/06 08:29 AM
by Icelander
* Protest Against Religious Bigotry!
( 1 2 3 all )
MarkostheGnostic 3,235 56 10/27/07 06:56 PM
by MarkostheGnostic
* 9/24 protest. MJF 541 8 09/26/05 08:45 AM
by MJF
* Anonymous vs Scientology
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
MushmanTheManic 5,300 81 02/15/08 06:42 PM
by truekimbo2
* Liberty Caps, my experience. chrispc 726 4 11/17/02 04:45 PM
by Shroomism
* finding myself, losing myself, seeing myself walking down the street incubaby_421 654 10 10/13/05 12:16 AM
by incubaby_421
* Life is intrinsically meaningless
( 1 2 all )
Grok 4,022 29 02/10/07 12:43 PM
by BlueCoyote
* POLL: Is "something" happening?
( 1 2 3 all )
trendalM 4,392 51 12/07/03 09:27 AM
by Viaggio

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
959 topic views. 0 members, 4 guests and 3 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.046 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 12 queries.