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InvisibleRahz
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Street protest * 2
    #28582309 - 12/14/23 08:07 AM (1 month, 14 days ago)

Is blocking traffic a legitimate/effective way to protest?

Does it deny a basic right to travel?

Should protestors be surprised when they get ran over?


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #28582342 - 12/14/23 08:36 AM (1 month, 14 days ago)

Is blocking traffic a legitimate/effective way to protest? - Yes - if there are alternate routes.

Does it deny a basic right to travel? - Yes, unless there is an alternate route.

Should protestors be surprised when they get ran over? - Yes, and the perpetrator should face consequences.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28582356 - 12/14/23 08:57 AM (1 month, 14 days ago)

Streets should only be blocked for parades and VIPs. Those are the legitimate reasons.

:kingcrankey:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Street protest [Re: Kickle]
    #28582400 - 12/14/23 09:41 AM (1 month, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Streets should only be blocked for parades and VIPs. Those are the legitimate reasons.

:kingcrankey:



I consider parades to be official theater, to which we must submit.
In Russia & Greece they drive military vehicles in the parades.
Noisy smelly and scary.

All the parades seem to be residue of military regimes, or funerals.
I protest against that.
but am not sticking my neck out nor do I wish to block the street with my body.

funerals are something we have to put up with.

Macy's shift to the Sanity Clause is a funny twist in street blocking.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28584173 - 12/15/23 04:35 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Is blocking traffic a legitimate/effective way to protest?

Does it deny a basic right to travel?

Should protestors be surprised when they get ran over?





Legitimacy is often in idea used to deny personal responsibility. For example, instead of saying I don't want you to do something, I say what you are doing isn't legitimate.

Effective? Sometimes it seems that way. Seems to work well for unions and Ghandis.

Rights are not something that exist outside of thought, so it depends how you think about it.

Should indicates an obligation, which is also something that doesn't exist outside of thought. So it depends how you think about it.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28584337 - 12/15/23 06:48 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Perhaps a poor choice of semantics, by legitimate I mean useful/helpful/effective way to promote whatever cause is being advanced.

And yes of course, rights don't exist outside of thought. Within thought there are qualities, judgements, concepts, logic, etc. When it comes to basic rights, humans have the "right" to go about their work as long as it doesn't infringe on the liberty of others. There are commonalities in agency and what work and play and function mean. These things are fundamental to being, remaining alive and enjoying life. One could suggest that infringing on the liberty of others is synonymous with infringing on a right. This is I think the basis of 'natural law' and should be the basis of public, private and common law.

Nobody has the right to arbitrarily impede people from moving about. I don't disagree that it can be effective but I do question whether there might be a more useful, helpful, effective way of advancing a cause that doesn't include pissing people off or scaring the crap out of them. I suppose that's true for many things in life.

Impromptu standing in the road increases one's chances of being hit by a car. By should I simply meant is surprise logically justifiable? And certainly, driving over people should be frowned upon but that only goes so far in making standing in the road a reasonably safe thing to do.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28584344 - 12/15/23 06:55 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

I don't feel like I have any rights or lack of any rights. I can't help but make the best decision I can in each moment, and the concept of rights doesn't seem to apply at all.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28584382 - 12/15/23 07:37 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

If you don't feel it you don't feel it but should people be able to run over protestors? Should people be able to stand in the road? Answering with opinions are valid answers. IOW, agreement and consensus through consideration of argument is just thought, but such is much of philosophy and various other aspects of life. Natural law would suggest that yes of course a person can do whatever they can and will, but if it involves infringing on the liberty of others this could be consideration for the infringed (or a third party) to infringe on the infringer to end the infringement. There are issues which arise that aren't perhaps trivial by virtue of being thought when they're based on not thought but action, and potentially action in response.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28584483 - 12/15/23 08:28 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

blocking traffic peacefully (unless it is a fire engine or an ambulance) with soft bodies is not impacting life and death,
however, running people over is impacting in that way, it's horrifyingly illegal and dangerous behavior.


that is not personal opinion.
one is man slaughter and the other is an expression of free speech, maybe not 100% lawfully (if no street occupancy permit had been obtained), but not a serious offense, not even the breaking of glass - not even touching - it's peaceful obstruction.

you can't say there are good people on both sides of that. really.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28584539 - 12/15/23 09:11 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Are you suggesting I've equated blocking traffic with manslaughter? lol.

And you agree it's not lawful to hang out in the road i.e. not a right. Is there some guarantee that such actions won't impact a fire engine or ambulance? Even barring that consideration does mean it's fine to make little Suzie late for recital? And I'm sure you're aware street protest are inflammatory so the nature of it being "peaceful" is questionable. Peaceful obstruction seems an oxymoron to me.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28584611 - 12/15/23 10:30 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Saying someone should act a certain way is like saying a sunrise or earthquake should act a certain way.

Yeah I like sunsets that are really bright pink, and I like earthquakes to be very very mild, and I like people to be kind and understanding of each other. If protesters are going to stop traffic, I hope its worth it.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28584627 - 12/15/23 10:45 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Are you equating impeding traffic and manslaughter with a sunrise, as if to say they're things which nothing can be done about?

If nothing can be done about it (I think we both know that's not true) then logically nothing should be done about it. I.E. laws and "rights" are pointless concepts?


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28584728 - 12/15/23 11:59 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

I think something can be done about it.

maybe we understand the word should differently. To me it implies obligation.

I prefer to think in terms of benefiting or harming people.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28584863 - 12/16/23 05:13 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

When driving little suzie use an ALEF

https://alef.aero/preorder.html

and yes if an unpermitted street occupancy does block a fire engine, the obstructors are prosecuted - not for manslaughter but there is a legal provision underwhich they go to jail and are fined.

worse if someone dies of course.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28584990 - 12/16/23 07:39 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
maybe we understand the word should differently. To me it implies obligation.




It's a matter of context, which isn't usually hard to decipher if a particular context isn't assumed.

"1— used in auxiliary function to express condition
2 —used in auxiliary function to express obligation, propriety, or expediency
3 —used in auxiliary function to express futurity from a point of view in the past
4 —used in auxiliary function to express what is probable or expected
5 —used in auxiliary function to express a request in a polite manner or to soften direct statement"


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28585064 - 12/16/23 08:53 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
maybe we understand the word should differently. To me it implies obligation.




It's a matter of context, which isn't usually hard to decipher if a particular context isn't assumed.

"1— used in auxiliary function to express condition
2 —used in auxiliary function to express obligation, propriety, or expediency
3 —used in auxiliary function to express futurity from a point of view in the past
4 —used in auxiliary function to express what is probable or expected
5 —used in auxiliary function to express a request in a polite manner or to soften direct statement"




I try to never assume context.

i see defintion 4 as a probablity or expection is bolded. I take that to be used like, "The millenial falcon should hold up, but I'm not completely sure."

so in the definition, i would say protesters in general probably won't block the street, but they might. I feel confident from the context thats not the defition you were using though.

I try not expect anything from anyone though, as predicting the future is notoriously challenging.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28585077 - 12/16/23 09:06 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

my personal opinion about the situation is that it depends.

like if you could save a million lives by blocking traffic with a protest, seems beneficial

but say you achieved nothing and someone died, well then it wasn't worth it and it was harmful

Even in one particular situation, we can't know what all the consequences will be. We can't know if we will cause benefit or harm ahead of time.

and when you look at how cause and effect ripples out through time, the consequences become even more difficult to understand.

I think each person has no choice but to attempt to make the best decision in each moment, shaped by their perspective. Perspectives can't evaluate themselves because they can never step out of themselves to compare to another, we are always locked into our perspective, even if our perspective is dynamic.

Because I can't evaluate my perspective or my opinions with anything other than my perspective and my opinions, I cannot know if how i see things is right or good or true or ultimately beneficial.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28585141 - 12/16/23 09:54 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
I feel confident from the context thats not the defition you were using though.





Ugh. I already clarified what I meant. "Should someone be surprised?" speaking to the question of what expectation is logical or reasonable. They are of course not "obligated" to experience a lack of surprise, but it's really not surprising in my estimation and I did detail the reasons for that :shrug:

I try not to assume things either but still do at times.

And while I don't disagree with all your logic in the second response I would argue that one doesn't need to know the ultimate outcome of something to have an opinion on what is okay. My opinion is that it's not okay to run people over absent an extreme danger and that it's not okay to arbitrarily inconvenience people not knowing what consequences there may be for the inconvenienced... not that further consequence necessarily matters as being inconvenienced is the first order consequence.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28585146 - 12/16/23 10:01 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

I couldn't judge something only on how reasonable or logical it seems to me. Logic and reason are part of how I may judge someothing, but values, desires and delsuions play into it as well.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28585148 - 12/16/23 10:03 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

For example its not purely logical to want anything

its not logical to want people to be safe, or to whnt your people to be free.


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