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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28584173 - 12/15/23 04:35 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Is blocking traffic a legitimate/effective way to protest?

Does it deny a basic right to travel?

Should protestors be surprised when they get ran over?





Legitimacy is often in idea used to deny personal responsibility. For example, instead of saying I don't want you to do something, I say what you are doing isn't legitimate.

Effective? Sometimes it seems that way. Seems to work well for unions and Ghandis.

Rights are not something that exist outside of thought, so it depends how you think about it.

Should indicates an obligation, which is also something that doesn't exist outside of thought. So it depends how you think about it.


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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28584344 - 12/15/23 06:55 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

I don't feel like I have any rights or lack of any rights. I can't help but make the best decision I can in each moment, and the concept of rights doesn't seem to apply at all.


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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28584611 - 12/15/23 10:30 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Saying someone should act a certain way is like saying a sunrise or earthquake should act a certain way.

Yeah I like sunsets that are really bright pink, and I like earthquakes to be very very mild, and I like people to be kind and understanding of each other. If protesters are going to stop traffic, I hope its worth it.


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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28584728 - 12/15/23 11:59 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

I think something can be done about it.

maybe we understand the word should differently. To me it implies obligation.

I prefer to think in terms of benefiting or harming people.


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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28585064 - 12/16/23 08:53 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
maybe we understand the word should differently. To me it implies obligation.




It's a matter of context, which isn't usually hard to decipher if a particular context isn't assumed.

"1— used in auxiliary function to express condition
2 —used in auxiliary function to express obligation, propriety, or expediency
3 —used in auxiliary function to express futurity from a point of view in the past
4 —used in auxiliary function to express what is probable or expected
5 —used in auxiliary function to express a request in a polite manner or to soften direct statement"




I try to never assume context.

i see defintion 4 as a probablity or expection is bolded. I take that to be used like, "The millenial falcon should hold up, but I'm not completely sure."

so in the definition, i would say protesters in general probably won't block the street, but they might. I feel confident from the context thats not the defition you were using though.

I try not expect anything from anyone though, as predicting the future is notoriously challenging.


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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28585077 - 12/16/23 09:06 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

my personal opinion about the situation is that it depends.

like if you could save a million lives by blocking traffic with a protest, seems beneficial

but say you achieved nothing and someone died, well then it wasn't worth it and it was harmful

Even in one particular situation, we can't know what all the consequences will be. We can't know if we will cause benefit or harm ahead of time.

and when you look at how cause and effect ripples out through time, the consequences become even more difficult to understand.

I think each person has no choice but to attempt to make the best decision in each moment, shaped by their perspective. Perspectives can't evaluate themselves because they can never step out of themselves to compare to another, we are always locked into our perspective, even if our perspective is dynamic.

Because I can't evaluate my perspective or my opinions with anything other than my perspective and my opinions, I cannot know if how i see things is right or good or true or ultimately beneficial.


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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28585146 - 12/16/23 10:01 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

I couldn't judge something only on how reasonable or logical it seems to me. Logic and reason are part of how I may judge someothing, but values, desires and delsuions play into it as well.


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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28585148 - 12/16/23 10:03 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

For example its not purely logical to want anything

its not logical to want people to be safe, or to whnt your people to be free.


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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28585739 - 12/16/23 05:57 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

I think people justify their desires with reason, and then imagine they are motivated by the reason.

But I'm hungry. I can rationalize it, I can describe all the trillions of things happening in all the cells and say its logical, but hunger doesn't care if I agree with it or not. It isn't logical, even if my logic agrees with it. Its like if you have a million billion monkees typing away randomly, nothing they are righting comes from logic, however by chance one may right something i can agree with logically.

Where logic seems to come in is finding strategies to fulfill our desires. Like I'm hungary. Reason really helps to get food, or grow food, or store food, or even cook food or transport it etc.


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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28586033 - 12/16/23 08:23 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

I think if you look at the person driving the vehicle, there will be a 'drive' similar to hunger motivating their actions, their actions being a (most likely extremely unskillful) strategy to satisfy the drive

whether or not the strategy helps them meet their needs depends on the situation.

luckily most people aren't sociopaths, so they have drives and needs that prevent extreme forms of manipulation and harm towards others


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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28586536 - 12/17/23 08:50 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
luckily most people aren't sociopaths, so they have drives and needs that prevent extreme forms of manipulation and harm towards others




But there are forms of manipulation and harm toward others, which leads back to reason for enumerating rights so I'm not sure what you're point is. Rights don't exist, as if to suggest the principles/logic behind the idea of them hold no value?





I think laws can be based on principles and logic.

A right is a fundamental entitlement for being human. I don't think I'm entitled or have the right to life, or the right to liberty, or food or medicine or anything. My life depends on everyone else through exchange. we can make agreements about exchange, but to elevate those agreements to something like a right and to imagine that this creation called a right has some kind of reality seems way off to me.

why not just use laws or agreements?


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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28586587 - 12/17/23 09:50 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

I didn't pick a defiition just to refute it. its my understanding of how the word is used. Here's an example from chatGTP:

Quote:

what is the differnce between rights and laws
ChatGPT
Rights and laws are related concepts, but they refer to different aspects of the legal and societal framework. Here's a brief explanation of the differences between rights and laws:

Nature:

Rights: Rights are inherent, fundamental entitlements or freedoms that individuals possess by virtue of being human. These rights are often considered universal and inalienable, meaning they cannot be taken away or surrendered. Examples include the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Laws: Laws, on the other hand, are rules and regulations established by a governing authority (such as a government) to regulate behavior within a society. Laws are created to maintain order, protect rights, and ensure justice.
Source:

Rights: Rights are often considered natural or human rights, derived from philosophical and ethical principles. Many countries recognize these rights in their constitutions or legal frameworks.
Laws: Laws are created by governments or legislative bodies. They are formal rules that are enforced by the government, and they can vary from one jurisdiction to another.
Enforcement:

Rights: While rights are inherent, their protection and enforcement may depend on legal systems and mechanisms. Legal systems, such as courts, may be involved in upholding and protecting individual rights.
Laws: Laws are enforced by government authorities. Violations of laws can result in legal consequences, such as fines, imprisonment, or other penalties.
Scope:

Rights: Rights are broad principles that are not always specific to particular situations or actions. They provide a general framework for human dignity and freedom.
Laws: Laws are specific rules that address particular behaviors or actions within a society. They can cover a wide range of issues, from criminal activities to contract disputes.
Change:

Rights: Rights are often seen as enduring and resistant to change. Changes to the recognition and protection of rights may involve amendments to constitutions or international agreements.
Laws: Laws can be changed through the legislative process. Legislators have the authority to create, amend, or repeal laws based on the evolving needs and values of society.
In summary, rights are inherent entitlements that individuals possess, often considered universal and inalienable, while laws are rules created by governing authorities to regulate behavior within a society. Rights provide a foundational framework, and laws serve as the specific rules and regulations that govern a community.




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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28586600 - 12/17/23 10:05 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

here's an older example of the use of the word :smile:

Quote:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men




my view is not that people have rights, but people have needs. and instead of making universal decalrations about everybody, my preference is just for people to make agreements with each other about their needs. These agreements can be anything from a head nod to a law. (old maried couples seem to be able to communicate a lot with a head nod :smile:


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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28586644 - 12/17/23 10:50 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

I never claimed that my understanding of a word is the only or most correct understanding, my claim is that its sincere.





when I look at this definition of "right",

Quote:

a power or privilege held by the general public or someone as the result of a law




then a right appears to be the positive side of a restictive law. For example its against the law to murder someone, so we could possibly infer that there is a right to life. Laws against theft imply a right to ownership.


So the laws prohibiting blocking traffic may imply a right to travel without being blocked in the specific ways the law says you can't block traffic.


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Re: Street protest [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28586727 - 12/17/23 11:46 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

its true, a law doesn't actually give power or privilage


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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28586820 - 12/17/23 12:57 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

From the context of the OP I made an assumption about your use of the word. I don't understand why you would ask the question from a legal perspective, as we can just look up the law, there doesn't seem much to discuss there

i don't see anyone's use of words as legitimate or illegitmate, words can be used in lots of ways. it takes skill both to speak or write and to comprehend someone. to expect it to always work seems like a set up to be disapointed. especially on the internet. you don't know much about me and my background and the context i use to understand words.

if you assume insincerity, there isn't much possible here


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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28604331 - 12/31/23 08:36 AM (28 days, 5 hours ago)

Nice Rhaz, I love that version of rights.

In the US the conflict escalation has led to rhetoric where politicians are pushing a disenfranchisement view. On the left its minority groups that are disenfrachised, on the right its everybody on the right.

So perhaps part of whats happening is people feel less invested in shared rights when they feel like they aren't included.


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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #28606341 - 01/01/24 07:13 PM (26 days, 18 hours ago)

I really like this point:

Quote:

I disagree. Religion is true or false no matter how many people believe. But the more people believe in rights the more we actually have them.




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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28614000 - 01/08/24 11:07 AM (20 days, 2 hours ago)

t
Quote:

Rahz said:
Another consideration when I made this post. Many on the right who supported the Ottawa protests frown on the Palestinian street protests. Many on the left supporting the current street protests frowned on the Ottawa protests.

I though it was a good example of how tenuously people support liberty. In both cases the argument can be made that people had their liberty infringed upon. In both cases the proponents will state it was a just action, an infringement of liberty to address an infringement of liberty. In both cases people who had nothing to do with the stated infringement were infringed upon.





i think this is one of those ethical dilema things like with the train tracks

maybe part of the trouble is there aren't clear answers, but our binary tendencies are searching for right and wrong


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Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
    #28614695 - 01/09/24 12:03 AM (19 days, 13 hours ago)

I think its a good point about identification bias. Identify with nation, party, culture, family.... we see what we identify with in a better light and what we don't in a worse light.

and then how this impacts our decisions. the examples in this thread are of situations where people feel compelled to make the less of two evil type decisions. Like is it a better evil to lose a liberty or to block traffic (not that these are necessarily accurate, complete, sane or logical evaluations, which is a different topic).

In the lesser of two evil situations, we tend to be biased towards the evil that benefits ourselves or group we identify with. We tend to have less empathy and compassion for those we identify less with.

When we think our liberty or groups liberty is taken away, or important needs are blocked from being fulfilled, it can create a sense of righteous justice that further erodes empathy and compassion and blocks reasoned understanding.


Edited by Freedom (01/09/24 12:04 AM)


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