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InvisibleRahz
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Street protest * 2
    #28582309 - 12/14/23 08:07 AM (1 month, 14 days ago)

Is blocking traffic a legitimate/effective way to protest?

Does it deny a basic right to travel?

Should protestors be surprised when they get ran over?


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rahz

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28584337 - 12/15/23 06:48 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Perhaps a poor choice of semantics, by legitimate I mean useful/helpful/effective way to promote whatever cause is being advanced.

And yes of course, rights don't exist outside of thought. Within thought there are qualities, judgements, concepts, logic, etc. When it comes to basic rights, humans have the "right" to go about their work as long as it doesn't infringe on the liberty of others. There are commonalities in agency and what work and play and function mean. These things are fundamental to being, remaining alive and enjoying life. One could suggest that infringing on the liberty of others is synonymous with infringing on a right. This is I think the basis of 'natural law' and should be the basis of public, private and common law.

Nobody has the right to arbitrarily impede people from moving about. I don't disagree that it can be effective but I do question whether there might be a more useful, helpful, effective way of advancing a cause that doesn't include pissing people off or scaring the crap out of them. I suppose that's true for many things in life.

Impromptu standing in the road increases one's chances of being hit by a car. By should I simply meant is surprise logically justifiable? And certainly, driving over people should be frowned upon but that only goes so far in making standing in the road a reasonably safe thing to do.


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rahz

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28584382 - 12/15/23 07:37 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

If you don't feel it you don't feel it but should people be able to run over protestors? Should people be able to stand in the road? Answering with opinions are valid answers. IOW, agreement and consensus through consideration of argument is just thought, but such is much of philosophy and various other aspects of life. Natural law would suggest that yes of course a person can do whatever they can and will, but if it involves infringing on the liberty of others this could be consideration for the infringed (or a third party) to infringe on the infringer to end the infringement. There are issues which arise that aren't perhaps trivial by virtue of being thought when they're based on not thought but action, and potentially action in response.


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28584539 - 12/15/23 09:11 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Are you suggesting I've equated blocking traffic with manslaughter? lol.

And you agree it's not lawful to hang out in the road i.e. not a right. Is there some guarantee that such actions won't impact a fire engine or ambulance? Even barring that consideration does mean it's fine to make little Suzie late for recital? And I'm sure you're aware street protest are inflammatory so the nature of it being "peaceful" is questionable. Peaceful obstruction seems an oxymoron to me.


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rahz

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28584627 - 12/15/23 10:45 PM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Are you equating impeding traffic and manslaughter with a sunrise, as if to say they're things which nothing can be done about?

If nothing can be done about it (I think we both know that's not true) then logically nothing should be done about it. I.E. laws and "rights" are pointless concepts?


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rahz

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28584990 - 12/16/23 07:39 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
maybe we understand the word should differently. To me it implies obligation.




It's a matter of context, which isn't usually hard to decipher if a particular context isn't assumed.

"1— used in auxiliary function to express condition
2 —used in auxiliary function to express obligation, propriety, or expediency
3 —used in auxiliary function to express futurity from a point of view in the past
4 —used in auxiliary function to express what is probable or expected
5 —used in auxiliary function to express a request in a polite manner or to soften direct statement"


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rahz

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28585141 - 12/16/23 09:54 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
I feel confident from the context thats not the defition you were using though.





Ugh. I already clarified what I meant. "Should someone be surprised?" speaking to the question of what expectation is logical or reasonable. They are of course not "obligated" to experience a lack of surprise, but it's really not surprising in my estimation and I did detail the reasons for that :shrug:

I try not to assume things either but still do at times.

And while I don't disagree with all your logic in the second response I would argue that one doesn't need to know the ultimate outcome of something to have an opinion on what is okay. My opinion is that it's not okay to run people over absent an extreme danger and that it's not okay to arbitrarily inconvenience people not knowing what consequences there may be for the inconvenienced... not that further consequence necessarily matters as being inconvenienced is the first order consequence.


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28585686 - 12/16/23 05:07 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Agreed to the first line but in the second you remove purely. That there is an underlying basis which is not rational doesn't mean there are no logical arguments that support (are based on the concept of) freedom.

I agree not to infringe on your liberty and hopefully you will agree to not infringe on mine. What we hold fair for ourselves in that regard we should hold fair for others. Another may not agree but it's no surprise when an infringement of liberty results in another infringement of liberty of some kind, official or otherwise. The basis for rights and support of rights. It's all in the mind but that doesn't mean it's not important or relevant to what's happening and what will happen.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28586026 - 12/16/23 08:14 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
I think people justify their desires with reason, and then imagine they are motivated by the reason.

But I'm hungry. I can rationalize it, I can describe all the trillions of things happening in all the cells and say its logical, but hunger doesn't care if I agree with it or not. It isn't logical, even if my logic agrees with it. Its like if you have a million billion monkees typing away randomly, nothing they are righting comes from logic, however by chance one may right something i can agree with logically.

Where logic seems to come in is finding strategies to fulfill our desires. Like I'm hungary. Reason really helps to get food, or grow food, or store food, or even cook food or transport it etc.




Fundamental questions about hunger lead to questions about the nature of reality. Outside curiosity perhaps there's no point or reason in trying to justify being hungry, but clearly there's logic in eating something to sustain one's life if that is what someone wants to do. On this I think we agree.

Pretty much everyone wants to eat and there is purpose/reason in doing so regardless of whether there is rationality in being hungry to begin with.

Yes, logic finds strategies to fill desires but it can also inform of when there might be undesirable outcomes. Who will seriously question whether it's okay for people to eat food? Contrast this with the agreeability of running people down with vehicles.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28586102 - 12/16/23 09:29 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
luckily most people aren't sociopaths, so they have drives and needs that prevent extreme forms of manipulation and harm towards others




But there are forms of manipulation and harm toward others, which leads back to reason for enumerating rights so I'm not sure what you're point is. Rights don't exist, as if to suggest the principles/logic behind the idea of them hold no value?


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28586366 - 12/17/23 05:56 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

As we've been discussing rights are mental postulations. They ebb and flow. Social structure can exist in absence of rights. Slavery comes to mind. There are still rights but only for the few.

And while it's debatable, investment firms buying up all the houses at inflated prices with the intention of renting them out in perpetuity leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28586406 - 12/17/23 06:44 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
As we've been discussing rights are mental postulations. They ebb and flow. Social structure can exist in absence of rights. Slavery comes to mind. There are still rights but only for the few.

And while it's debatable, investment firms buying up all the houses at inflated prices with the intention of renting them out in perpetuity leaves a bad taste in my mouth.



so you agree that
the erosion of rights leads to slavery
and
investment companies have no imagination (of what to do with the money) and think that they have a right to make everyone miserable by grabbing up other people's property rights.




Mostly, though I think investment companies have imagination... just not the imagination we might like them to have.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28586409 - 12/17/23 06:46 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

Rahz said:

Is blocking traffic a legitimate/effective way to protest?

Does it deny a basic right to travel?




I've seen people passionately argue that blocking someone's car, so they are not able to drive, falls within the definition of kidnapping.

I'm unsure what to think about that




I don't agree but they both fall under the definition of limiting liberty.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28586567 - 12/17/23 09:15 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Some people consider some rights to be fundamental. I have not made that claim. I don't believe in God, therefore don't believe in God given rights, though I think the logic in such opinions is in line with the principles/logic of natural law.

It seems you've applied a definition that you can refute. Certainly imo, rights are things which have to be agreed upon by some critical mass of individuals, otherwise we don't have them. This is why I mentioned that your opinion on the questions I was asking would be a valid response.

That being said, I hope this clears up the semantics I used in the OP.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28586621 - 12/17/23 10:26 AM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
I didn't pick a defiition just to refute it. its my understanding of how the word is used. Here's an example from chatGTP:





Perhaps not intentionally, but still selective. Let's not pretend the only potential rights are inherent God given rights or with other mystical interjection.

From Cornell "A right is a power or privilege held by the general public or someone as the result of a law, such as a constitution, statute, regulation, or judicial precedent."

From Dictionary.com "Rights are the legal or moral entitlements of people or groups to act or be treated in a certain way."

From Britannica.com "Civil rights, guarantees of equal social opportunities and equal protection under the law regardless of race, religion, or other personal characteristics."

Human rights are considered fundamental, perhaps to some because of a belief in God or other supposition, or perhaps simply because humans tend to agree they apply to everyone.

I understand ChatGPT is not the be all end all of knowledge and definition of words. Maybe don't lean on it too heavily. I hear Grok is pretty good but I would still hesitate to take it's word on anything.


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rahz

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28586809 - 12/17/23 12:47 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
then a right appears to be the positive side of a restictive law. For example its against the law to murder someone, so we could possibly infer that there is a right to life. Laws against theft imply a right to ownership.


So the laws prohibiting blocking traffic may imply a right to travel without being blocked in the specific ways the law says you can't block traffic.




I think we agree here, but when you take exception to what I consider the legitimate use of words, 'rights' or 'should' I will point out there are generally accepted semantics to support my use of those words, hoping for not specifically for consensus but at least enough understanding to facilitate the conversation.

And while I don't mind exploring semantics I might think there is some level of disingenuity in saying "its my understanding of how the word is used" when I suppose you're aware those words are and have been used in other ways.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28586848 - 12/17/23 01:23 PM (1 month, 11 days ago)

I know you're an intelligent perceptive adult who's been alive for a while. That's all I need to know to suppose you're aware the word is used in more ways than you suggested. Not the same as your understanding.

Law is ultimately based on individual opinions which is what I was asking for. If that wasn't clear it should have been when I mentioned your opinion being a valid answer.

In so much as I do know you, I don't know why this was necessary. I wonder.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28604212 - 12/31/23 06:41 AM (28 days, 6 hours ago)

In addition to the possibility of them being officially taken away, rights and freedoms end if the power structure simply quits enforcing them, or selectively enforces them.

A thread I started a couple years ago, where I argued there were no rights, only privileges.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27589512#27589512

Different semantics, but my position hasn't really changed. The reason I'm bumping this thread. I watched a speech by Yuval Noah Harari.

His argument is that rights are like religion. They're fiction.

I disagree. Religion is true or false no matter how many people believe. But the more people believe in rights the more we actually have them.

I take issue with the idea of God given rights. As if they exist regardless of whether people believe they exist. While it's geared toward making them above reproach it also abdicates responsibility to some level. If a right is God given, right will win the day. For a Western person who's lived in relative freedom their whole life perhaps this makes sense.

What makes a right "fundamental"? Agreeing that a person has a freedom even if we don't want them to. This notion is I suppose as old as time in the minds of various individuals but was recorded to a degree in ancient Greece (citizens have rights) which influenced the Enlightenment. What's interesting is that the widespread adoption of fundamental rights can be associated with the same period in which religion began to be openly disputed. An issue at the time was the inability to abandon religion all together and instead Deism became popular. There was still one might surmise a potential fiction that supported the existence of rights.

Anyway, the reason I started this thread. A lot of people seem to think there's nothing wrong with blocking traffic in street protests, as in, the question of liberty never enters their mind or is discussed.

I consider Modern Liberalism to be the continuation of the Enlightenment. Is Modern Liberalism dying? Perhaps that would have been a better thread title.


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
    #28605567 - 01/01/24 09:01 AM (27 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Nice Rhaz, I love that version of rights.

In the US the conflict escalation has led to rhetoric where politicians are pushing a disenfranchisement view. On the left its minority groups that are disenfrachised, on the right its everybody on the right.

So perhaps part of whats happening is people feel less invested in shared rights when they feel like they aren't included.




I think we share a lot of opinions. Our semantics differ somewhat. I suppose that's pretty normal.

FWIW, I highlighted two definitions, not to say I was right and you were wrong. I assumed you saw that, but often my assumptions are part of the problem.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom] * 1
    #28613921 - 01/08/24 10:10 AM (20 days, 3 hours ago)

Another consideration when I made this post. Many on the right who supported the Ottawa protests frown on the Palestinian street protests. Many on the left supporting the current street protests frowned on the Ottawa protests.

I though it was a good example of how tenuously people support liberty. In both cases the argument can be made that people had their liberty infringed upon. In both cases the proponents will state it was a just action, an infringement of liberty to address an infringement of liberty. In both cases people who had nothing to do with the stated infringement were infringed upon.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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