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Offlinerepeatingdigits
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Registered: 08/30/21
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Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
Re: I want to talk to you about *NOT* using Kambo frog venom [Re: Asante]
    #27449370 - 08/30/21 11:34 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

I hear what you are saying. However, Kambo is actually a really great medicine.

The problem is (as with most of these sorts of medicines) over-harvesting and commercialization leading to improper and unscrupulous practices.

I have done a number of Kambo trainings, in Peru we call it Sapo. The people who I train and work with own a large piece of land outside of Iquitos that is home to the frogs. I have held the frog. I have watched the harvesting. It isn't as torturous as you make it sound.

When a frog is found at night, it is sung to. Then a long pole is extended up to where the frog is chilling (high up in a tree). The sloth-like frog slowly reaches out and grabs onto the pole, which and is lifted down to the people.

The frog is very chill and docile. If a person is calm and soothing, the frog likes to be held. However a nervous person will make the frog nervous.

The frog is pet gently and sung to softly. Medicine is only taken if the frog has not been harvested in a while. You can tell if it has been harvested based a little ring on the frog's leg.

GOOD practitioners only take part of the frog's venom, and leave part for it's own natural defenses and biology. Of course there are some people who are only out to make money and do not care about the frogs. There are some people who harvest it all without gentleness, care or respect. There are some people who cut the medicine with egg whites.

There is an origin story for the use of Sapo (Kambo):

A medicine man by the name of Kampu had a village full of sick people, and they could not find relief or cure. After trying for many months to heal his people, he drank a brew from the Mother Vine and went into the jungle to find a cure for his community.

The spirit of Aya told him to find healing from the frog which then appeared. At first he was bewildered in how this frog would heal his people. But then it was explained to him that the frog is a noble and sovereign healer. It was then taught to him the method of using the medicine.

It seems to me that it is in the frog's nature to heal. If it didn't want to offer it's medicine, they never would have instructed Kampu in the practice.

*A quick note on the pharmaceutical industry:

There have been a couple different occasions in which pharmaceutical companies have paid to gather up 1000s of the frogs, which were then taken to their facilities. But the frogs would not produce venom for them. It seems that the frogs only produce the medicine in their natural environment. It may be dietary or some other biological mechanism. Or it may be that the frogs don't translate through to that sort of sterility.

There ARE pharmaceutical companies which are working to patent some of the peptides. However, there are more things at play in the medicine than mere chemical reactions. While the peptides can be used to heal many different things, there are aspects of the medicine which I doubt will come out of a laboratory.


**And the hippy douschebags in tie-dye and flipflops? There are probably way more of those people eating psilocybin. There are annoying and ridiculous people in most any type of community.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: I want to talk to you about *NOT* using Kambo frog venom [Re: repeatingdigits] * 5
    #27450315 - 08/31/21 01:11 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Psilocybin doesnt get tortured out of a frog though.


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Offlinerepeatingdigits
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Registered: 08/30/21
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Re: I want to talk to you about *NOT* using Kambo frog venom [Re: Asante] * 1
    #27450963 - 08/31/21 01:17 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Do you know for sure that a mushroom doesn't feel pain when it is cut or torn from it's mycelial body?

Do mushrooms enjoy growing in captivity? Are there purists out there who only consume free range mushrooms that are found in the wild?

One interesting thing about interfacing with something like a psilocybin mushroom is that the mushroom gets to experience things that are new and novelty, outside of it's nature. When the mushroom is melded with our mind and nervous system, we seem to take on and experience part of it's own unique intelligence. And it in turn get's to experience bits of our own psychology as well as our sense organs, which must be quite interesting for a mushroom.

Through us th mushroom gets to experience the taste of fruit, the sound of music, the feeling of movement, the experience of sex, etc.

This idea COULD be extrapolated. What of the people conducting psilocybin assisted therapy? Sometimes in these scenarios deep traumas can be pulled to the surface to be relived and released. Who are we to subject the beloved mushroom to these horrifying and painful experiences?

Even more tangible, I know somebody who tells a story of being a teenager, him and his girlfriend's brother were on mushrooms at a party. They ended up getting jumped by a soccer team who was on crystal meth. Beaten ruthlessly while on a very heavy trip. The younger brother had a psychotic break and personality split that night following the experience.

Did the mushroom enjoy the events of that evening?

Do you suggest to pescatarians that they stop eating fish?

What about a man who, with the aid of Kambo, is able to refine and purify himself, releasing his animalistic and abusive tendencies that were passed down through his paternal lineage? What if that sort of work (with the frog) ripples outwards? Perhaps the man changes his course, and instead of abusing his children and wife, he ends up being a good, healthy, integral father and spouse? This then breaks a chain of suffering and pain that would have continued through his children's children on down line... Do we know how much the frog really suffers? If we did know, who determines if the end justifies the means?

Do cow's like being milked? Some say they feel relief. What about when they are packed into a factory to have their tits sucked by robots?

I'm guessing possibly you are a vegan. Maybe not. Just saying there is a lot of gray area here.


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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: I want to talk to you about *NOT* using Kambo frog venom [Re: repeatingdigits] * 4
    #27451095 - 08/31/21 02:44 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Mushrooms don't feel anything, they're a fruiting body of mycelium. There are no neurons or sentience in a fruit. For many mushrooms the mycelium "wants" animals to eat them, so they can grow out of your poop. Other "like" being picked because it helps spread their spores.

Frogs feel pain, torturing them for your own pleasure is shitty and no amount of mental gymnastics can change that. If your goal is spiritual work you should find another drug, there's a whole world full of them.


Edited by feevers (08/31/21 02:53 PM)


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OfflineTyperwritermonky
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Re: I want to talk to you about *NOT* using Kambo frog venom [Re: Asante]
    #27452668 - 09/01/21 07:08 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
(s)he even cries out a few times and closes the eyelid and twists as the stick approaches to poke again. That is torture.
Imagine getting "high" (well sick) on something tortured out of an animal. Its perverse, like shooting up another's tears.
Interestingly there are vegans partaking in this, they have no clue.




Considering you can literally go to a dozen websites and order Kambo sticks online, and there are hundreds of "healers" that practice it all over the world, if not thousands, then you can imagine the industrial revolution of harvesting this frog venom.

I mean even people who say they get it in ways that aren't damaging etc., they get it straight from the tribes, do they really know?  Sure, maybe when they were down there it was all fine and holistic and non-damaging, but once they are gone... I imagine the vast majority of it is sourced improperly.

The only time I'd ever do it is if I literally, or someone i fully trusted, went down there to visit the tribes, and brought it back themselves.  Still haven't done it yet.


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Onlineepilectric
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Re: I want to talk to you about *NOT* using Kambo frog venom [Re: Typerwritermonky]
    #27453108 - 09/02/21 03:26 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:


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OfflineSpicy
Symbiont


Registered: 01/22/13
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Re: I want to talk to you about *NOT* using Kambo frog venom [Re: epilectric]
    #28571674 - 12/06/23 03:15 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

Ok so I want to start off saying that torture or abuse of an animal for something they produce is terrible! You will never have peace if you do this.

With that being said I want to add that not all frogs are tied up and abused. Many places treat these frogs with great respect and reverence. They are never tied up or abused. They are held and petted and sang to and fed and they come willingly. They are rubbed very little and then released.

Vice and whoever else has depicted this in a terrible way!!

I don’t think Kambo is for everyone but I HOPE everyone knows that TORTURE IS NOT REQUIRED! So if you do seek this out or it’s offered to you make sure it’s somewhere with ethical treatment and if you see otherwise, fix it! Let them know that isn’t required and this can be done symbiotically.

Just my 2 cents.

Ive had an opportunity arise in my travels to partake in a few weeks and am looking forward to being around the animals even if I don’t participate.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated as not much knowledge is out there. Just hated seeing so little info on this site and wanted to spread some info about ethical practices that are common among like minded groups that care about the world and animals and people :smile:


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Everything has beauty, not everyone sees it.
Perfection is subjective!


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OfflineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: I want to talk to you about *NOT* using Kambo frog venom [Re: Asante]
    #28571821 - 12/06/23 05:48 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

I’ve heard of people grinding up scorpions and sprinkling it into their tobacco to smoke it. Anything with a neurotoxin is always going to be more harm than it’s worth.


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Edited by GenesisCorrupted (12/06/23 09:27 PM)


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: I want to talk to you about *NOT* using Kambo frog venom [Re: Spicy]
    #28572120 - 12/06/23 08:50 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Spicy said:
Ok so I want to start off saying that torture or abuse of an animal for something they produce is terrible! You will never have peace if you do this.

With that being said I want to add that not all frogs are tied up and abused. Many places treat these frogs with great respect and reverence. They are never tied up or abused. They are held and petted and sang to and fed and they come willingly. They are rubbed very little and then released.

Vice and whoever else has depicted this in a terrible way!!

I don’t think Kambo is for everyone but I HOPE everyone knows that TORTURE IS NOT REQUIRED! So if you do seek this out or it’s offered to you make sure it’s somewhere with ethical treatment and if you see otherwise, fix it! Let them know that isn’t required and this can be done symbiotically.

Just my 2 cents.

Ive had an opportunity arise in my travels to partake in a few weeks and am looking forward to being around the animals even if I don’t participate.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated as not much knowledge is out there. Just hated seeing so little info on this site and wanted to spread some info about ethical practices that are common among like minded groups that care about the world and animals and people :smile:



Thanks for providing better context on this topic Spicy. :thumbup:


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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: I want to talk to you about *NOT* using Kambo frog venom [Re: Northerner] * 2
    #28572167 - 12/06/23 09:45 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

Any ceremony or practice can be considered spiritual. I don't believe there is any spiritual benefit to kambo other than the same spiritual benefits you could acquire by going through any difficult or challenging experience.

We have certain culturally accepted "spiritual" ceremonies that people think they need to do in order to acquire a spiritual upgrade, it's just not true.

And then people associate these practices as the only way to be spiritual, and that's where the whole spiritual ego comes from. By doing "spiritual" things.

Yes, sure psychedelics can invoke a spiritual experience, but many other things can too :smile:



--------------------
"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"


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OfflineSpicy
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Registered: 01/22/13
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Re: I want to talk to you about *NOT* using Kambo frog venom [Re: Eclipse3130] * 1
    #28572409 - 12/07/23 05:44 AM (1 month, 21 days ago)

Yeah it doesn’t seem very spiritual or beneficial. (but like you said anything can be done with intention) Seems dangerous and toxic.

And if not everyone is doing right then it’s just furthering abuse and disruption of the jungle…

There’s much better and safer tools that are more sustainable for sure.


--------------------
Everything has beauty, not everyone sees it.
Perfection is subjective!


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Offlineviraldrome
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Re: I want to talk to you about *NOT* using Kambo frog venom [Re: Spicy] * 1
    #28576458 - 12/09/23 10:21 PM (1 month, 18 days ago)

That whole Hamilton Morris video helped popularize this shit. Something that makes you puke and shit, and like all animal venoms is dangerous. I wouldn't even do it if it didn't hurt the poor animals because it sounds like no fun at all. I see local hippies are selling "kambo cleanse" sessions here. It always comes back to that: money. Spiritual practices co opted and put up for sale, no one ever giving it away for free.


--------------------
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