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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Tripping Insight
    #2857473 - 07/04/04 11:29 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I was just wondering how much everyone here thinks tripping gives them insight. How much of it is true, and how much could simply be considered "hallucinations"? Are we really all one, or is that just an illusion caused by the drugs? I'm not so sure about these kinds of insights, but I have noticed that tripping changes my general attitude towards life. After a strong trip, I tend to be a lot more relaxed and easy-going about life in general.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: silversoul7]
    #2857488 - 07/04/04 11:32 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Go to the Political Forum and check out the number of "hawks" there. Seems about average for the population. There seems to be no long-term effect of love, compassion and oneness.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: Swami]
    #2857516 - 07/04/04 11:42 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Why does it have to be long-term for it to be insight?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: silversoul7]
    #2857568 - 07/04/04 11:55 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Of what value is it if it is ephemeral and does not become part of you?

Must you relearn how to add or read every month or two?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Invisibletekramrepus
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: Swami]
    #2857576 - 07/04/04 11:58 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

...or perphaps the insights you can learn while tripping are the particular resent of entering a higher state of consciousness, or it clears your mind, in a way that you can't see clearly when you are in your everyday waking reality

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InvisibleJohn
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Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 7,026
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Re: Tripping Insight [Re: silversoul7]
    #2857580 - 07/04/04 11:59 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

it has to be long-term for the insight to be considered benefictial. i mean if you learn all these things and never do a damn thing about it you really didn't learn shit. i think psychedelics open your mind to a whole diffrent level but you have to take it from there, and most people don't. wasted potential that further powers the war against drugs. the shroomery (closest you're gonna get to a psychedelic-utopiaian community) has tons of likeminded people but it still has all the problems that every other society faces.

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OfflineTheNewZero
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Registered: 06/19/04
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: silversoul7]
    #2857594 - 07/05/04 12:00 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

In my opinion, whether or not you gain "mind expansion" or "insight" depends greatly on how you use psychedelics. For those who take psychedelics for recreational purposes; Music blasting, strobe lights on, etc., will get nothing from the experience but a good time. Although, those who go into the experience for spiritual and uplifting purpose get just that. I also think that the dose has a great deal to do with it. Many who think they have recieved the true psychedelic experience have not because their doses are low and there are distractions at every corner.
I suppose psychedelics are like many other things in life, you get what you put into it.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: tekramrepus]
    #2857595 - 07/05/04 12:00 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Practicality is what it is all about. If I discover the cure for AIDS (or think I do) and forget when I come down, what is the use? If I discover universal love, then beat my wife and yell at my co-workers the next day, where is the insight?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: silversoul7]
    #2857596 - 07/05/04 12:01 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Did you design your new avatar?  :thumbup:


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: silversoul7]
    #2857699 - 07/05/04 12:36 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Sometimes I wonder about tripping insight and whether it is a correlation or causation for the tripper. I didn't trip until I was 18, and looking back on my adolescence, it seemed as though it was in my destiny. I read Castaneda's first four books when I was 13 and that really influenced my view of the world. I dug up some songs that I wrote in that period of my life...

Beyond all the you's and me's
Existing in lonely memories
Stumble me into everything blind
It's coming to me one of a kind

It doesn't really matter if it's real or not

Beyond all the you's and me's
Existing lost realities
Stumble me into everything blind
It's coming to me one at a time

It doesn't really matter if it's real or not

But in the town of black and white
there lived a man who caused a fright
Because he lived in a shade of grey
but he brought a better way
Showing all of the people
That there minds were feeble
Stumbling backwards from astray
Tumbling backwards to dismay

Could this be what I wanted
An energy spectre haunted
So help me fear undaunted
Eerilly spectre haunted

Gonna close my eyes as I walk through the door
And it seems to me that I've been here before
Then I trandescend into reality
Everything I know is coming back to me

Is this me no one wanted
An empty spectre haunted
A diseased fear undaunted
burning freeze spectre haunted

Gonna close my eyes as I walk through the door
And it seems to me that I've been here before
Then I trandescend into reality
Everything I know is coming back to me

There's more to this that what we see
If we can get beyond the you's and me's
And there's more to this than meets the eye
And all we are will just pass us by

Now I see what I wanted
Entity spectre haunted
So help me fear undaunted
Eerily specte haunted

Gonna close my eyes as I walk through the door
And it seems to me that I've been here before
Then I trandescend into reality
Everything I know is coming back to me



yeah, it seems like I was troubled about reality. When I turned 18, I got really interested in psychedelics and began hunting them down like they were the holy grail. I had prejudices that these drugs would make everything clear to me and that a lot of my troubles would be resolved. I've been pretty preoccupied with psychedelics for the last 2 years or so. In that period i've tripped 6 times and here's what I've come up with.

Obviously, I experienced some dissapointment. Mushrooms and lsd did not answer all of my questions. They are definately profound experiences, but I am willing to admit that they may just be chemicals and nothing entirely special. But, while they didn't answer all of my questions, they definately have helped me ask better questions...What am I? Where did I come from? What is consciousness? How can a mushroom shake my world so hard...etc...My working analogy is that a trip is like a workout...you benefit from recovering from the exercise.

Psychedelics have given my existence a new depth. I know that I am living better because of them. They really allowed me to see my actions more clear...but as far as your question goes

Quote:

How much of it is true, and how much could simply be considered "hallucinations"?




It doesn't really matter if it's real or not


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
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  /l_l\/
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OfflinePositronius
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2857888 - 07/05/04 01:43 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Mushrooms offer no insight whatsover. It all depends on what insightful thoughts are already floating around in the person's head.

I know a countless number of people who gained nothing from mushrooms use.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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InvisibleZero7a1
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Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: Swami]
    #2857918 - 07/05/04 02:05 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Of what value is it if it is ephemeral and does not become part of you?

Must you relearn how to add or read every month or two?





you know sometimes i feel that way... and it really sucks. At one time its always like "woah" then im like... "FUCK!!!! not again!!!!"""


--------------------
What?

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OfflineHooty
Reality isRelative

Registered: 02/24/03
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2858065 - 07/05/04 03:14 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

It may all be hallucination....but that's the key to the insight they give you, they allow you to realize that all you percieve is a hallucination. That reality is relative to the way you perceive it. They're a teacher that guides and their teaching methods are highly unorthodox.


--------------------


Without love in the dream
It will never come true

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Offlinejono
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Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 137
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Tripping Insight [Re: silversoul7]
    #2858317 - 07/05/04 08:46 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I think that your intial statement, that tripping gives insight, can be true. But it is not an absolute guarantee. Tripping can give you 'insight' in that it can stimluate thought associations, and ideas that you would not have concieved of in normal, day to day, waking conciousness. Is it guaranteed to give insight? most definitely not. But does it seem to have a propensity to stimulate 'insight' related thought patterns? It seems so. But for this discussion to be truly meaningful, I think we need a more concrete definition of insight, and I like the one offered by my dictionary ': immediate and clear understanding (as seeing the solution to a problem or the means to reaching a goal) that takes place without recourse to overt trial-and-error behavior.'

Swami's point that for insight to be valid, it needs to be associated with a change in practical behaviour, is a false dichotomy between insight and behaviour. A change in thought patterns may lead to nothing more than a change in thought patterns, whether or not it leads to a corresponding change in behaviour related to those thought patterns is not a necessary characteristic for something to be a valid insight. I could, for example, gain insight into better ways of managing my money, but it does not guarantee, that i will not spend frivolously in the future.

To speak of my own situation, I know that in the cognitively dissociated stated offered by LSD trips, I have gained 'insight' into so many problems of my life and my subconcious mind, that have corespondingly improved my quality of life (as measured by my general level of contentment and happiness) remarkably. Some of those 'insights' brought benefits in their own right, others brought benefits that showed me more skillful ways of dealing with situations in my life. All in all, when I finally finish the years of studying ahead of me, I hope to conduct research and lobby the necessary bodies, ultimately leading to the implementation of psychedelics as recognized and legitimate tools of psychiatry (I know its a dream, but something I feel to be deeply worthwhile, and you would be very surprised of the number of individuals in current academic circles who have used these substances)

Sincerely,

Jonathan.


--------------------
Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: silversoul7]
    #2858352 - 07/05/04 09:07 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

insight is the ramifications of new connections or correspondences.
a sustained insight is one which engages well with ongoing change.
the kind of insight that ensues from bare attention gives deep resonance and stays fresh.

while tripping you can taste the flavour of this but it is usually not sustainable.

no action need follow such insight, it is a way of seeing - if you can move and keep seeing that is bonus.

then there are the kinds of insight like Michael Moore is providing us; practical insight, not related to personal spiritual quests but very practical and meaningfull to the order of life on this planet.

these insights come from research and usually start with suffering and confusion and a clear sense of right and wrong. no psychedellic is involved in that.

Edited by redgreenvines (07/05/04 11:47 AM)

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: Swami]
    #2858429 - 07/05/04 09:56 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Of what value is it if it is ephemeral and does not become part of you?

Must you relearn how to add or read every month or two?



I try to hold on to my insights, but I find I usually need at least one annual "checkup."


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: silversoul7]
    #2858437 - 07/05/04 10:00 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

This is funny.
the answer is YES
you do have to relearn, and re-evaluate your premises fairly frequently since things are constantly changing.
you can use some FAITH to avoid questioning certain things for a period of time, but really everything is subject to change.

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

Swami said:
Of what value is it if it is ephemeral and does not become part of you?

Must you relearn how to add or read every month or two?



I try to hold on to my insights, but I find I usually need at least one annual "checkup."



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: Swami]
    #2858467 - 07/05/04 10:11 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Did you design your new avatar?  :thumbup:



Indeed


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: silversoul7]
    #2858830 - 07/05/04 01:18 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

On what drugs?  :syringe:  :cool:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: jono]
    #2858874 - 07/05/04 01:29 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Swami's point that for insight to be valid, it needs to be associated with a change in practical behaviour, is a false dichotomy between insight and behaviour.

I was playing some poker the other day. Another player called me at the end of the hand saying, "I know you have a flush!" while he only had a straight. If he "knew" (had insight) then he would not have called, would he?

I consider insight to be deep and penetrating, not mere surface knowledge such as "If I smoke cigarettes, I am damaging my body." If one had insight, these would not simply be words, but true understanding of the physical cost. This understanding would automatically entail a behavorial change else it is not insight.

Have you ever crossed a busy street and walked into the path of a vehicle that you saw coming? The "seeing" and the behavior are intertwined.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: silversoul7]
    #2858918 - 07/05/04 01:37 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Tripping provides me with a great deal of insight.

It lets me look at social situations under a new, clean light. Helps me evaluate my relationships with friends and family. Allows me to see myself from "outside" myself..


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: Swami]
    #2859013 - 07/05/04 02:12 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

knowledge is not insight.
where this is skewed is in trying to apply the idea of insight out of scope.

like trying to make something 3 dimensional apply to a 2 dimensional case. Having insight is not like winning a lottery, nor is it like reading a newspaper, you don't ahve to do anything about it. it has done something about you. you become changed by your insight.

a poker game is a different kind of issue.

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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: Swami]
    #2859060 - 07/05/04 02:39 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Go to the Political Forum and check out the number of "hawks" there. Seems about average for the population. There seems to be no long-term effect of love, compassion and oneness.

This is based on assumptions and I would have to disagree, Swam. My feeling is that the Political Forum disproportionally draws hawks and conservatives.

The reason? Well I'll give you an example of the phenomenon: I play a multiplayer game online. There is a searchable list of sites running that game. One is called "Newbie Heaven". It is designed to provide a less competitive environment for new players to hone their skills. Let me tell you something. When I went to that room there were more pros there than you can count. They are attracted to that room because they are looking for easy kills. Same thing with the Political Forum. They are looking for peace-loving liberals to debate.

You may be correct in your general point, but I would be careful about using that example. (Btw, the place is a viper pit and I recommend people avoid it). Nasty, nasty unreasonable people there.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: zorbman]
    #2859114 - 07/05/04 02:59 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

This is based on assumptions and I would have to disagree, Swam.

Knock! Knock!

*Zorb goes to front door only to be grabbed under the armpits by two linebacker-sized thugs.*

"You're coming with us, punk! I hear the river is lovely this time of day..."


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: Swami]
    #2859127 - 07/05/04 03:03 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Wait, let me get my concrete boots.. Oh, you provide those?  How considerate. :lol:

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Offlinepsikooz
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: zorbman]
    #2859304 - 07/05/04 04:20 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Let me give my worthless opinion:

I believe that the planet has a concious. And the only way it can communicate with us is with the mushrooms. I believe the insights that i recieve, are true, some may be metaphors, but most are direct and obvious.

Can you define a hallucination? what does that mean? I never see pink ferries or elephants, never anything strange like that. My world just looks wacky and beautiful, and i believe that this is what must be.

We are part of an organism, called Earth. We are a part of the equation, and a good amount of us humans have lost the connection to the planet. They are turned off, and that is why we have war, mass confusion, hatred, pain and suffering.

The mushroom, is a bridge so that we can tap into the information channel of the gaian spirit, so that we can recieve instructions that will lead us to safety and peace in the future. IT is comming, all those that do not believe will be erased from existence, while those that have the connection will live as one.

The instructions have already been sent to the chosen that will lead the human race to peace and love eternally, for the final battle between good and evil. Freedom, and control.

If you laugh, you will die, in pain and suffering.
If you believe you will live in an eternal heaven.
Its your choice.

peace and love.

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OfflineArchemetis
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Registered: 06/21/04
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Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Tripping Insight [Re: psikooz]
    #2859334 - 07/05/04 04:34 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

" The instructions have already been sent to the chosen that will lead the human race to peace and love eternally, for the final battle between good and evil. Freedom, and control"

just a few more years now...isn't it a beautiful time to be a part of?

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Offlinepsikooz
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: Archemetis]
    #2859426 - 07/05/04 05:39 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

yes

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: Swami]
    #2859448 - 07/05/04 05:49 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

To be valid the insight must be of practical use...I agree. Sometimes entheogens can stimulate the creative process allowing you to gain insight (from within yourself) about yourself or others. It is possible to later put that knowledge to practical use. It has happened to me many times. The insight is not always Earth shattering, often it is only a minor insight that can be put to use in a small way, but sometimes there are life changing insights gained. I had an insight during a mushroom experience that allowed me to view a serious drinking problem from a different perspective which allowed me to drop it.

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OfflinemrDylan
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: Swami]
    #2859900 - 07/05/04 09:16 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I disagree Swami.. "If I smoke cigarettes, I am damaging my body" yes.. but that does not mean i have to change my behavior based on that knowledge.. Perhaps I have no problem with damaging my body (i'm not saying thats MY particular case but its one that is easliy realistic)

In response to the overall topic at hand, I believe that mushrooms DO unlock doors that may otherwise be sealed without them.. although it is up to the user to open, investigate, and interperet there teachings.. I think that mushrooms are for "certain people" - all of the "hip hop" crowd or "gangster" crowd at my old high school seemed not to apprieciate the experience as much as the "hippies" I knew - i think that part of this is because mushrooms destroy the ego (or allow you to see past it) in some sense and the image they ("gangsters") are trying to portray is almost soley based on feeding that ego

Without this raging ego though one can see alot of things otherwise blinded from the user and thus gain new insight into thigns like spirituallity, why we are here, what being happy means, why we judge people, ect...

ps. I haven't made a post in a LONG time so this is my triumphant return and I would just like to say "HELLO EVERYONE!"


--------------------
Work like you don't need the money.
Love like you've never been hurt.
Dance like nobody's watching.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: mrDylan]
    #2859912 - 07/05/04 09:21 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Certain types of strong egos are threatened by the entheogenic experience, but many people with strong egos are validated by it.

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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: mrDylan]
    #2859918 - 07/05/04 09:23 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

ps. so this is my triumphant return

Don't overstate your case.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
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Re: Tripping Insight [Re: silversoul7]
    #2878790 - 07/11/04 04:33 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"Are we really all one?"

We are one in the same way that the separate electrons circling a neuculus are one atom, the same way that the separate solar-systems/stars create a galaxy.. connected through a higher order.

But that's just one theory..


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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