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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Free will is an illusion 2
#28574595 - 12/08/23 03:40 PM (1 month, 19 days ago) |
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A group of neurons influences a neuron, and based on equilibrium it either fires or doesn't. That neuron has zero free will. It is the same with organelles of the brain, with people interacting and all life of earth.
The universe does its thing and we are the passenger, the witness, the student. It IS a ride that serves to let information flow into you, and out of you.
The Universe, your Subconscious, is driving your body through your life and you are the kid on the back seat looking around in wonder asking "are we there yet?"
Thing is kid: when you're there you encompass the totality of everything, All Is You, you quantum tunnel to your next Big Bang and you blast into all of us again, trying to shove ourselves back together, cosmic love.
You just realized you will experience every possible thing in every possible way forever. That's a biggie. Celebrate, think about it, and help those around you feel better, or just, help them with whatever vexes them at the time.
Desu.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Asante] 1
#28574682 - 12/08/23 04:54 PM (1 month, 19 days ago) |
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I do hope you never stop taking mushrooms
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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I havent taken them for 5 years, but this autumn i harvested 1.5 gr dried wavy caps that i intend to deploy this year as a series of mini trips 
haven't taken my dissociative in almost 3 weeks either and i got me a kilo of that one.
This is me, sober.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Asante]
#28574749 - 12/08/23 05:56 PM (1 month, 19 days ago) |
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100% agree with the first three paragraphs but I’m unsure what the last two mean ✌️
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28574783 - 12/08/23 06:29 PM (1 month, 19 days ago) |
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we are, you are, the universe reassembling itself.
Pre-big bang we were One, all was One, all information was a whole. The Big Bang scattered Me into Us, a whole lot of Me's interacting.
We will all merge into One again, forever and ever.
Upon realizing this you gained a bit of wholeness not found in most around you.
So, help them with theirs, in the knowledge they are you.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Asante]
#28574810 - 12/08/23 06:51 PM (1 month, 19 days ago) |
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Christmas time deserves a little free will debunking.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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If i'm gonna do it its going to be memantine, dissociatives fit the holiday better.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Asante]
#28575072 - 12/08/23 10:00 PM (1 month, 19 days ago) |
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You forgot to talk about the bubbles?
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: sudly]
#28576416 - 12/09/23 09:35 PM (1 month, 18 days ago) |
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Freewill exists, but doesn't work yet.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Last seen: 12 minutes, 31 seconds
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: sudly]
#28576609 - 12/10/23 05:17 AM (1 month, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: You forgot to talk about the bubbles?
Champagne?
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28576640 - 12/10/23 06:06 AM (1 month, 18 days ago) |
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Something along these lines,
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: sudly] 1
#28576668 - 12/10/23 06:50 AM (1 month, 18 days ago) |
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hopefully you can read this https://ibb.co/jZjYngZ
Quote:
there’s a growing sense that lots of different things in the world are related to one another and connected in ways that we are still discovering. It’s not quite religious, but it is amazing.
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,328
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Asante]
#28576683 - 12/10/23 07:27 AM (1 month, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said: I havent taken them for 5 years, but this autumn i harvested 1.5 gr dried wavy caps that i intend to deploy this year as a series of mini trips 
haven't taken my dissociative in almost 3 weeks either and i got me a kilo of that one.
This is me, sober.
What disassociate do you take?
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“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: loladoreen]
#28576801 - 12/10/23 09:41 AM (1 month, 18 days ago) |
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I take memantine. It has a radically different structure than most dissociatives and also, a radically different effect on me.
a quick informational i made:
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,328
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Asante]
#28576803 - 12/10/23 09:42 AM (1 month, 18 days ago) |
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Interesting
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“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”
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TheStallionMang
Do U know who yur fuckin with?


Registered: 10/18/17
Posts: 4,523
Loc:
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: loladoreen]
#28576886 - 12/10/23 11:18 AM (1 month, 18 days ago) |
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I think this all sounds like a fancy way of saying "I have no say over myself, my decisions, my life, or anything else" which leads to a diminished sense of accomplishment for anything good they do and no sense of accountability for things they shouldn't have done.
I know someone who will do and say some really rude and destructive things, then say things like "I literally had no other choice" but someone else could easily see they had a lot of better options
I prefer to give myself credit for both "good" and "bad" things I do and don't blame the neurons in my brain for being retarded We are not dust in the wind...
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RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
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Quote:
TheStallionMang said:
I prefer to give myself credit for both "good" and "bad" things I do and don't blame the neurons in my brain for being retarded
"Experts" claim 16% of school children enrolled in Grades 1 to 5 "have" ADHD. Parents and teachers feel very relieved to understand the mysterious cause of their disruptive behavior. Meanwhile . . . these "hyperactive" kids who "can't focus" are glued and transfixed by electronics - every day by 3 to 5 hours of screentime.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Quote:
TheStallionMang said: I think this all sounds like a fancy way of saying "I have no say over myself, my decisions, my life, or anything else" which leads to a diminished sense of accomplishment for anything good they do and no sense of accountability for things they shouldn't have done.
I know someone who will do and say some really rude and destructive things, then say things like "I literally had no other choice" but someone else could easily see they had a lot of better options
I prefer to give myself credit for both "good" and "bad" things I do and don't blame the neurons in my brain for being retarded We are not dust in the wind...
this is possible for people steeped in the ignorance that we try to dispell. ignorant people latch onto the most accessible part of concept and never actually gain any benefit, due to mistaking the facts for something else.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Quote:
TheStallionMang said: I think this all sounds like a fancy way of saying "I have no say over myself, my decisions, my life, or anything else" which leads to a diminished sense of accomplishment for anything good they do and no sense of accountability for things they shouldn't have done.
I know someone who will do and say some really rude and destructive things, then say things like "I literally had no other choice" but someone else could easily see they had a lot of better options
I prefer to give myself credit for both "good" and "bad" things I do and don't blame the neurons in my brain for being retarded We are not dust in the wind...
I doubt you'd call your views and understandings static and unchanging. Live and learn yknow.
Taking personal responsibility and being accountable to yourself is not something every one honestly practices.
We're a nebula of interstellar dust, and if you know how planets are formed, that's important.
My 2c.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: sudly]
#28577102 - 12/10/23 01:59 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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but even stars and planets change, mature, transform. will is not only an illusion, it simply is not a real thing in any system except as an extension of a centralized authority, and that is as arbitrary, capricious and mechanistic as the rest, while the servile underlings perform the will of the overlords in a chain of command.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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The idea of anticipation of qualitative benefit driving motivation makes more sense to me, if you think you'll find joy or benefit in doing something, it's more likely you will
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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SprewellSleeve



Registered: 03/15/09
Posts: 6,315
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Last seen: 2 days, 19 hours
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Quote:
TheStallionMang said: I think this all sounds like a fancy way of saying "I have no say over myself, my decisions, my life, or anything else" which leads to a diminished sense of accomplishment for anything good they do and no sense of accountability for things they shouldn't have done.
I know someone who will do and say some really rude and destructive things, then say things like "I literally had no other choice" but someone else could easily see they had a lot of better options
I prefer to give myself credit for both "good" and "bad" things I do and don't blame the neurons in my brain for being retarded We are not dust in the wind...
Maybe the "bad" is the part where you're not actually willing it. Those are caused by who knows what, toxic food and water for example. I don't know anyone with optimal health, but it doesn't mean they're 100% unhealthy. I can't imagine a person who's completely healthy doing anything "bad" such as hurting someone. I don't know.
Free will doesn't make sense to me.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,850
Last seen: 33 minutes, 17 seconds
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Quote:
TheStallionMang said: I think this all sounds like a fancy way of saying "I have no say over myself, my decisions, my life, or anything else" which leads to a diminished sense of accomplishment for anything good they do and no sense of accountability for things they shouldn't have done.
I know someone who will do and say some really rude and destructive things, then say things like "I literally had no other choice" but someone else could easily see they had a lot of better options
I prefer to give myself credit for both "good" and "bad" things I do and don't blame the neurons in my brain for being retarded We are not dust in the wind...
its not so much that care about life goes away, its more a recognition that we don't create that care
theoretically we can debate it, but the experiential part of it has to be recognized.
I would put it like: the appearance of choice appears without choosing it. Its like how thought appears without anything appearing to create the thought. And choice is thought.
what happens when you try to predict your next thought?
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TheStallionMang
Do U know who yur fuckin with?


Registered: 10/18/17
Posts: 4,523
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If no one has free will, everything that happens would be predetermined and efforts to change anything for the better would be a complete waste of time and I refuse to believe that we are mere puppets with no say or power over ourselves
Thoughts come and go and many decisions are made about whether we act on those thoughts or not. Seems like free will to me.
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SprewellSleeve



Registered: 03/15/09
Posts: 6,315
Loc: USA
Last seen: 2 days, 19 hours
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Quote:
TheStallionMang said: If no one has free will, everything that happens would be predetermined and efforts to change anything for the better would be a complete waste of time and I refuse to believe that we are mere puppets with no say or power over ourselves
Thoughts come and go and many decisions are made about whether we act on those thoughts or not. Seems like free will to me.
Maybe we were created to have our own personality, but outside factors can still effect the natural (free?) part of us at times.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Quote:
TheStallionMang said: If no one has free will, everything that happens would be predetermined ...
this is the common misconception. one does not imply the other. if predetermination existed, it would require a registry or ledger of what is determined. that does not exist, everything is interacting in the moment for the first time never having been predetermined.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,850
Last seen: 33 minutes, 17 seconds
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Quote:
TheStallionMang said: If no one has free will, everything that happens would be predetermined and efforts to change anything for the better would be a complete waste of time and I refuse to believe that we are mere puppets with no say or power over ourselves
Thoughts come and go and many decisions are made about whether we act on those thoughts or not. Seems like free will to me.
where does your free will come from?
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Quote:
SprewellSleeve said: 100% unhealthy..
100% unhealthy = the moment of death.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Asante]
#28577447 - 12/10/23 05:19 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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If it's not a real thing, how do servile underlings perform it?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Rahz]
#28577471 - 12/10/23 05:34 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: If it's not a real thing, how do servile underlings perform it?
thats the great thing. Our consciousness has a layering of superficial consciousness (you and me) that is pretty much individual, and a fundamental consciousness that permeates all things, the Oneness, mostly resigned to our subconsious.
When we do anything, our superficial ego watches the fundamental universal consiousness act through us, and we claim it as our action.
The God Level of you does all things so, sayonara sin. It was the Big Guy all along, through us, not us.
we are the Passenger - it's a Ride.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Asante]
#28577483 - 12/10/23 05:42 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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SprewellSleeve



Registered: 03/15/09
Posts: 6,315
Loc: USA
Last seen: 2 days, 19 hours
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Asante]
#28577492 - 12/10/23 05:48 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said:
Quote:
SprewellSleeve said: 100% unhealthy..
100% unhealthy = the moment of death.
LOL
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 12 minutes, 31 seconds
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Quote:
TheStallionMang said: I think this all sounds like a fancy way of saying "I have no say over myself, my decisions, my life, or anything else" which leads to a diminished sense of accomplishment for anything good they do and no sense of accountability for things they shouldn't have done.
I know someone who will do and say some really rude and destructive things, then say things like "I literally had no other choice" but someone else could easily see they had a lot of better options
I prefer to give myself credit for both "good" and "bad" things I do and don't blame the neurons in my brain for being retarded We are not dust in the wind...
The fact that we couldn’t have done otherwise is not an excuse to cease learning or growing. In fact that person will likely, of no free will of their own, be forced to change into a more likeable human being by way of other people’s reactions to their crudeness. If they genuinely don’t care about how other people view them then there was no hope for them regardless of whether they believe in free will or not.
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Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
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This topic (free will) now strikes me as a good illustration of black/white thinking. Either it's free, or it's not. Like a computer. It's either a 0 or a 1. Such binary categorization can be helpful to process things which are very complex. But it's a method which is not very representative IMO
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Last seen: 12 minutes, 31 seconds
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Quote:
TheStallionMang said: If no one has free will, everything that happens would be predetermined and efforts to change anything for the better would be a complete waste of time and I refuse to believe that we are mere puppets with no say or power over ourselves
Thoughts come and go and many decisions are made about whether we act on those thoughts or not. Seems like free will to me.
Change is a necessary fact of the universe. We cannot exist without change. No free will does not equal non changing things. We change based on cause and effect. It is forced upon us. Our next state is based on the state of things now.
How much effort anyone puts into becoming a better person is entirely not of any one persons doing, including the person doing the changing. It is simply happening.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28577614 - 12/10/23 06:55 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: This topic (free will) now strikes me as a good illustration of black/white thinking. Either it's free, or it's not. Like a computer. It's either a 0 or a 1. Such binary categorization can be a helpful to process things which are very complex. But it's a method which is not very representative IMO
This strikes me as a denial that a claim can be false.
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RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,010
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28577616 - 12/10/23 06:56 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Is encouraging myself a waste of time and effort?
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Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28577619 - 12/10/23 06:57 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said:
Quote:
Kickle said: This topic (free will) now strikes me as a good illustration of black/white thinking. Either it's free, or it's not. Like a computer. It's either a 0 or a 1. Such binary categorization can be a helpful to process things which are very complex. But it's a method which is not very representative IMO
This strikes me as a denial that a claim can be false.
I'm all ears
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28577661 - 12/10/23 07:22 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: This topic (free will) now strikes me as a good illustration of black/white thinking. Either it's free, or it's not. Like a computer. It's either a 0 or a 1. Such binary categorization can be helpful to process things which are very complex. But it's a method which is not very representative IMO
'I think I'd benefit from starting a task I've prepared for and provided alternatives outcomes to, therefore I think I more likely will'.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: Is encouraging myself a waste of time and effort?
In one sense, yes, because without addressing the why and how of what will drive your motivation to do, you more likely won't.
So encourage your efforts but address the challenges of your work.
To overcome significant obstacles or barriers you can view those challenges as an integral part of your learning process. Overcoming identified hurdles can involve steps like a preparation of surfaces or the acquisition of materials or time. Overcoming the hurdle of concerns can be seen as a significant step in mastering the arts of what you set yourself to do.
Each hurdle is unique to the individual and their task, but finding it is crucial imo.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: Is encouraging myself a waste of time and effort?
The state that you are in now will determine the state that you are next in. Wanting to encourage yourself is a part of the state that you’re currently in. You didn’t will the want to encourage yourself; it came from the state prior to you wanting to encourage yourself.
By the word “state”, I mean the totality of the system that you call “you”. Your physical body including all the neurons in your nervous system and the environment in which that system exists. The environment includes everything everyone has ever said to you, and the way in which you interpreted them. ——
Also, whether something is a waste of time is relative to whoever you ask. I don’t believe encouraging yourself is a waste of time. I’m not even sure what you mean by that question or how it relates to whether or not free will exists? (Free will being the belief that you could have done otherwise).
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy] 1
#28577769 - 12/10/23 08:13 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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The question might be how to effectively encourage your efforts.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28577780 - 12/10/23 08:19 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
Bardy said:
Quote:
Kickle said: This topic (free will) now strikes me as a good illustration of black/white thinking. Either it's free, or it's not. Like a computer. It's either a 0 or a 1. Such binary categorization can be a helpful to process things which are very complex. But it's a method which is not very representative IMO
This strikes me as a denial that a claim can be false.
I'm all ears 
I believe that it is a method which can be representative of basic statements. As in, if I said to you that all people have three arms, we know that this is false.
I agree that with larger issues such as geopolitics, morals and ethics that black and white thinking likely isn’t the best way of doing things, but in cases such as making the positive assertion that free will exists, we can observe the world and come to the conclusion that this claim is either true or false.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: sudly]
#28577801 - 12/10/23 08:28 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: The question might be how to effectively encourage your efforts.
Yeah, that’s a good question.
The belief that self encouragement can output positive results is not something that I think RJ tubs willed themselves into believing. I think it just happened.
If you try to point to where your free will lies you never find it.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28577805 - 12/10/23 08:30 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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I don't think individual motivation is as simple as yes or no.
More to do with a dynamic approach to nature and nurture imo.
I think kickle is just suggesting there's a lot of nuance to the topic.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28577809 - 12/10/23 08:31 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said:
Quote:
sudly said: The question might be how to effectively encourage your efforts.
Yeah, that’s a good question.
The belief that self encouragement can output positive results is not something that I think RJ tubs willed themselves into believing. I think it just happened.
If you try to point to where your free will lies you never find it.
Again, I don't think 'self encouragement' encompasses a lot of understanding on its own.
The idea that positive affirmations aren't enough on their own y'know.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Last seen: 12 minutes, 31 seconds
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: sudly]
#28577829 - 12/10/23 08:47 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: I don't think individual motivation is as simple as yes or no.
More to do with a dynamic approach to nature and nurture imo.
I think kickle is just suggesting there's a lot of nuance to the topic.
There might be nuance in getting people to see they have no free will, but I don’t believe there is any nuance to the answer. If their legitimate nuance I haven’t heard it yet.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Last seen: 12 minutes, 31 seconds
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: sudly]
#28577833 - 12/10/23 08:48 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
Bardy said:
Quote:
sudly said: The question might be how to effectively encourage your efforts.
Yeah, that’s a good question.
The belief that self encouragement can output positive results is not something that I think RJ tubs willed themselves into believing. I think it just happened.
If you try to point to where your free will lies you never find it.
Again, I don't think 'self encouragement' encompasses a lot of understanding on its own.
The idea that positive affirmations aren't enough on their own y'know.
I agree with you, but I’m more just trying to address the topic of free will and how people come about believing what “self encouragement” encompasses.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28577866 - 12/10/23 09:28 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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We're constrained in what we can do, and whatever's within our capability we can technically do.
I came to an understanding of what productivity encompasses through experience, reflection and adaptation.
And for me it involves recognising my perceived boundaries, and addressing them through preparation and an acceptance of broad outcomes.
Even if my intent isn't reached, I can gain insights and experience to recalibrate my next one.
A dot becomes a line when it goes for a walk, and a line becomes a masterpiece when it continues over time.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Bardy


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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: sudly]
#28577875 - 12/10/23 09:39 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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I was addressing if free will is an illusion or not.
Free will being the belief that you could have done otherwise.
Drive, if I understand how you’re using it, might be seen more as a will to survive and to do whatever it takes to survive… which I believe we do have and might well be what people mistake the “feeling of free will” for. Do I have you right or wrong, or am I half way there?
Edited by Bardy (12/10/23 09:40 PM)
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28577899 - 12/10/23 10:15 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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I think this discourse with Anil Seth might clarify some insights into the topic, or not, either way, here's the highlight I think is relevant.
Quote:
Do we have free will?
Scott Snibbe: Yeah, it reminds me of Giordano Bruno when he claimed that all of the stars were actually other suns and then was burnt at the stake for it. He’s reputed to have said, Your God is so much bigger than you think.
So, agency, free will, I know this is a gigantic question, but this sense of interdependence. On the one hand, if the mind and consciousness arise from material processes, do we have any agency at all? Are we like an automaton or do we have free will and agency? What is that? I’m sure the answer is somewhere in between, but could you talk a little bit about that? Another one of these impossible questions.
[00:45:15] Dr. Anil Seth: It’s funny when it comes to free will, whenever I’ve given talks about consciousness in sort of general public audiences, you can explain how the world that’s being experienced isn’t the world as it is. And, okay, that’s fine. And then you can explain that the self isn’t really an innate essence of you or me. It’s also a perception. It’s like, eh, okay, fine.
But then when you try to make the same claim for free will, there’s much more resistance. This is just my own very informal survey that free will seems to be that aspect of self that people are least willing to accept that there might be a scientific explanation for. Which in turn means that there’s a real value that at least people in the West have about what is quite a dualistic understanding of consciousness.
This idea that we have free will in the sense of consciousness being able to load the dice or pull some levers in the physical universe to change an otherwise determined inexorable flow of events. This is a kind of free will that maximizes the causal potency of consciousness but also makes the least sense. Because it imbues this free will with a lot of stuff. It’s not just that consciousness can change things in the physical world, but it does so in a very strategically savvy way and knows exactly what to do in order so that you as an organism do what you want to do; that you do the things that are aligned with your beliefs, values, goals, desires, and so on.
I don’t think that’s a sort of free will that we have or that we need, or that we want. I do think we do have the kind of free will that we ought to have and actually makes subjective sense for us too. What do I mean by that? Well, what does it mean to have an experience of free will? How would one describe that experience? How would you describe it? What is an experience of free will like to you?
If we want to look at the how and why, I think it means thinking about the drive.
To develop our strategy for how, Scott Snibbe: Well, it feels like you could do one thing or another and you deliberately choose one rather than the other. There’s this great quote by Shantideva, a great Buddhist thinker, and he said if things came into being through choice, then no one would suffer. So, that’s where I really start to doubt it.Because if I really had free will, then I would never get in a fight with my wife and I would never eat an extra piece of cake or something like that. So, I do scratch my head a little bit about whether I really have free will or not because to me it seems a little bit like an illusion, that it’s kind of like me getting what I want is free will, but I’m not sure that that’s really free will.
[00:48:06] Dr. Anil Seth: Right, and I think we sometimes make the confusion between experiences of free will and the experience of exercising what is unfortunately called willpower. When you make cognitive effort, when you are faced with a hard decision and that feels like you are exerting your free will, compared to just pouring yourself a glass of water when you’re thirsty, which is equally a voluntary action.
But it doesn’t feel difficult. It doesn’t have that sense of cognitive effort behind it. I think that’s misleading because there’s no reason that free willed decisions need to be the difficult ones, the challenging ones that we face. But you’re absolutely right that the experience of free will, central to it is this experience of a counterfactual possibility that I did A, but I could have done B.
I made a cup of tea, but I could have made a cup of coffee. And I think there’s a couple of other things that also characterize free will, and you hinted at them. One is that I’m doing what I want to do. It feels like I’m doing something that is aligned with my beliefs and desires, which are beliefs and desires that I didn’t choose to have.
They’re there in my brain, in my mind. I didn’t choose those, but that action is aligned with them. And finally, it seems to come from within that the action I made, whether it’s picking up a glass or taking a job or just raising my hand, doesn’t have an alternative cause in the world.
It’s not that somebody was lifting my hand or sticking wires into my brain. The causes came from within. So, that’s what an experience feels like. What I’ve been doing in the book and in the work is actually trying to take the same perspective to free will as I would take to other kinds of conscious experiences.
Instead of naively thinking, Okay, the experience of free will is that I cause something to happen so that must be what’s going on, otherwise free will doesn’t exist. To say that, Okay, no, let’s look at it in a bit more detail, what experiences of free will are actually like, just as the same experience of self doesn’t mean there is an actual self, the experience of free will doesn’t mean there actually is free will, there is a very casually potent variety. It actually means there’s an experience of this sort of counterfactual possibility coming from within, aligned with beliefs and desires. And that makes a lot of sense. It’s a kind of perception, again, of a particular kind of action.
Why do I experience that I could have done it differently if in fact I couldn’t? Well, it matters for the next time. The brain pays attention to voluntary actions because the brain is always changing. Maybe it turns out that I’ve suddenly become allergic to tea and I have this cup of tea and I feel terrible.
So now the brain has learned that, okay, next time coffee will be made rather than tea or water or something else, because the alternative possibilities have been highlighted in my experience the first time I made tea. The trick is always to recognize that how things seem is not how they are, which again, is totally inherited from or compatible with Buddhist philosophy, but it’s also not totally divorced from how things are.
Is just finding that relationship and for free will, I think it’s a relationship that extends over time. I feel like I could have done differently because next time I might do differently.
[00:52:55] Scott Snibbe: Yeah, I think you’re right about that. It’s another one of these problems of language, because in Buddhism it’s kind of a combination of doing things and imagination. That part of what you’re saying is that we go back and imagine we could have done something else, but that’s very different than having actually had the power to do something else in that moment.
But then imagining it does change your brain and the potential for doing something else in the future. And in Buddhism they call this volition or even karma—I hate to use that word karma because it’s way too loaded. But in Buddhism it’s just action that people do things and it’s conditioned on everything that happened before.
[00:53:33] Dr. Anil Seth: We can’t escape that, right? Just knowing that also doesn’t escape it. Last week I was suffering from this very, very intensely because I decided not to travel to this conference because I’ve had Covid for months and there’s a lot of Covid around.
And I thought, Okay, I’m not gonna go to this meeting because I think it’s just gonna be too much of a drain and also too much of a chance of catching another infection of Covid. And then I came to regret that decision, I thought, Oh, I really should have gone, I really should have gone because it would’ve been great and so on.
I was telling myself I could have gone, I could have just booked a last minute flight. I could have booked a train. Why didn’t I do that? Totally neglecting everything that we’ve been talking about now, which is that at that time, I could only have done what I did. And there were reasons for that, and the reasons made sense at the time.
But even more fundamentally that, I had no choice. I just did what I did at that time. What is the point of all this post regrets that we all suffer from? I think just as knowing that colors don’t objectively exist in the world, doesn’t make you stop seeing color, knowing that free will of this very spooky sort doesn’t exist, and we just do what we do and we experience it in a variety of ways, that doesn’t stop us from experiencing free will or the occasional regret that we all have when things don’t turn out as we projected them. But it’s still useful. So regret is the price you pay mentally for making a different decision the next time.
https://www.skepticspath.org/podcast/free-will-consciousness-reality-with-dr-anil-seth/
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Bardy


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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: sudly]
#28577938 - 12/10/23 11:26 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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I’ve heard Anil speak on free will a couple of times and I think what he says makes sense.
You just dodged my question. It’s good to move forward with the conversation, but it’s not good to just flat out not answer people, then quote someone else’s words and act like that gives some kind of insight to what you were thinking. I’ve run into this problem with you once before…
Anyway…
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28577955 - 12/11/23 12:05 AM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said: I was addressing if free will is an illusion or not.
Free will being the belief that you could have done otherwise.
Drive, if I understand how you’re using it, might be seen more as a will to survive and to do whatever it takes to survive… which I believe we do have and might well be what people mistake the “feeling of free will” for. Do I have you right or wrong, or am I half way there?
This is my perspective on free will.
Quote:
In a paradigm where the self is conceived not as a separate entity but as a dynamic and evolving process shaped by both genetic predispositions (nature) and environmental factors (nurture). The concept of free will becomes intricately connected to this dynamic self, departing from the traditional view of free will as a standalone capacity. The emphasis is on the continuous interplay between internal cognitive processes and external influences, reflecting a nuanced understanding of decision-making.
Free will, within this context, is portrayed not as an isolated capability but as a complex outcome derived from ongoing interactions. Decision-making is characterised as a collaborative and socially embedded process, highlighting the intertwining of individual agency with collective influences. The acknowledgment of social determinants in decision-making underscores the interdependence of the self on others, emphasising that our choices are significantly shaped by how we perceive ourselves and those around us.
In summary, the understanding presented here positions the self as a dynamic, evolving entity intricately woven into the entire being, influenced by both nature and nurture. Concurrently, free will is seen as a collaborative and socially embedded product, emerging from the intricate interplay between internal cognitive processes and external influences. This paradigm marks a departure from static notions, offering a more comprehensive perspective on the nature of the self and the complexities involved in decision-making.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Bardy


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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: sudly]
#28578015 - 12/11/23 03:21 AM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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This isn’t highschool. You don’t have a target word count to meet. ——
So from that I have:
- The self is a united entity; described by you as “not separate”.
Q. What is the self not separate from?
- This “new” concept of free will involves one that is connected to the self.
Q. What makes you think the “old” free will was not associated with the self? And how did the old free will “stand alone” from the self? I think you’ll find that free will has always gone hand in hand with the concept of self, I don’t see how it couldn’t…
- Free will is an outcome derived from interactions. (Doesn’t sound like free will to me, so what you’re saying here I think just further confuses things).
- Decision making is a social, collaborative process intertwined with individual agency. (It can also be as simple as deciding to move your eyes or hold your breath).
The last paragraph is just word salad that doesn’t actually explain what you think free will is. It basically boils down to “free will is a product of everything” and you equating decision making with free will, which is complete nonsense. Some new “paradigm” you have there.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28578033 - 12/11/23 04:09 AM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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The understanding presented here positions the self as a dynamic, evolving entity intricately woven into the entire being.
I think the answer you'll arrive at depends on whether you view the self as a dichotomy of the self as a separate entity from your being, or as the outcome of the dynamic integration of ongoing interactions within an expanded understanding of nature and nurture. Same goes for free will imo.
When making decisions, our considerations often involve influence from what we perceive the perspectives of those around us to be. At other times we are alone and only responsible to ourselves.
The self is not an independently existing essence but a dynamic and interdependent process. The self as a perception itself, rather than a distinct entity that does the perceiving.
Imo.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Rahz]
#28578050 - 12/11/23 04:41 AM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: If it's not a real thing, how do servile underlings perform it?
the alternative is you don't get to pick which: death, torture, sexual abuse, starvation, work in the mines, fight in the gladiator forum, face the lions, and I forget the rest that conquered slaves are subjected to.
this is like electroshock conditioning, not will.
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Bardy


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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: sudly]
#28578059 - 12/11/23 04:46 AM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: The understanding presented here positions the self as a dynamic, evolving entity intricately woven into the entire being.
I think the answer you'll arrive at depends on whether you view the self as a dichotomy of the self as a separate entity from your being, or as the outcome of the dynamic integration of ongoing interactions within an expanded understanding of nature and nurture. Same goes for free will imo.
When making decisions, our considerations often involve influence from what we perceive the perspectives of those around us to be. At other times we are alone and only responsible to ourselves.
The self is not an independently existing essence but a dynamic and interdependent process. The self as a perception itself, rather than a distinct entity that does the perceiving.
Imo.
You’re starting to sound like Deepak Chopra. Seriously read what you just wrote in the voice of Deepak Chopra lol
Edited by Bardy (12/11/23 05:19 AM)
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RJ Tubs 202



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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: sudly]
#28578116 - 12/11/23 05:59 AM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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BTW, I am not big into affirmations.
Quote:
sudly said:
The question might be how to effectively encourage your efforts.
I'm fascinated by the nature of self-discipline, setting intentions, & resisting temptations. It can be argued the 600 lb man who dies at 45 from numerous diseases caused by obesity didn't make decisions, just like the fit 80 year old who ate healthy for decades and exercises is not making choices. It all just "happens" to us. Drunks and heroin users don't choose to quit - it just happens - like the rain.
I notice major changes in my life are associated with insight. Learning about myself seems to be a big catalyst for change. But again, I did not choose to investigate the source and nature of my suffering. It just happened. I guess.
BTW Freedom - I often can predict the nature of the thoughts that will arise in various situations. The mind is incredibly repetitive, and much of the time quite predictable. Do I know where thoughts come from? No. I don't know where my preference for certain food comes from. Or why water is wet.
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redgreenvines
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being present in the here and now, you can guard against the enemy, be it excess of food, or scarcity of water. vigilance, then, is how we manifest our attitude for or against what we associate with the current conditions. within the vigilant context, how we react is reflexive, related to previous associations (learning). As we navigate from one vigilant context to another a different set of reflexes are accessed.
I would describe breathing meditation as a vigilant context.
Also there are several hunter gatherer vigilant contexts that improve results.
Driving is a vigilant context.
etc.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
Rahz said: If it's not a real thing, how do servile underlings perform it?
the alternative is you don't get to pick which: death, torture, sexual abuse, starvation, work in the mines, fight in the gladiator forum, face the lions, and I forget the rest that conquered slaves are subjected to.
this is like electroshock conditioning, not will.
The comment I replied to no longer exists
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Rahz
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Free will is a slippery word. Perhaps because we've been conditioned to a mystical definition. "Ability to do what one wants". This is what I consider "will". If one is going to apply free to it then there needs to be some meaningful difference between will and free will. What about free will is more free than will? Being practical, it speaks to absence of coercion.
This is reasonable. It works. It doesn't produce confusion.
So in answering the question I would first ask for a definition. Very important for good communication on the subject.
For instance Bardy mentioned "The belief one could have done otherwise".
Off the bat, it's being defined as a belief. Can one who holds this belief prove it? No? Then I don't believe in it.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Rahz]
#28578177 - 12/11/23 07:21 AM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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sorry about responding to a rebuttal of a removal, but are you now equating free will with unrestrained ability to do what you want?
i.e. have you disconnected it from will as a part of behavior, and are now connecting it to the rights and freedoms of human beings, which is more in the domain of laws of the land kind of thing.
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Kickle
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28578183 - 12/11/23 07:25 AM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said:
Quote:
Kickle said: This topic (free will) now strikes me as a good illustration of black/white thinking. Either it's free, or it's not. Like a computer. It's either a 0 or a 1. Such binary categorization can be a helpful to process things which are very complex. But it's a method which is not very representative IMO
I believe that it is a method which can be representative of basic statements. As in, if I said to you that all people have three arms, we know that this is false.
I agree that with larger issues such as geopolitics, morals and ethics that black and white thinking likely isn’t the best way of doing things, but in cases such as making the positive assertion that free will exists, we can observe the world and come to the conclusion that this claim is either true or false.
Revisit my original comment. I did not assert or deny free will but instead suggested such stances are an example of black/white thinking.
It's my estimation that some pitfalls of black/white thinking are that nuance is completely lost, dialogue breaks down, and us vs them predominates.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28578186 - 12/11/23 07:26 AM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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some of my best thinking is in black and white
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Kickle
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It has utility. So does recognition
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Kickle
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Rahz] 1
#28578252 - 12/11/23 08:18 AM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: So in answering the question I would first ask for a definition. Very important for good communication on the subject.
In statistics, the number of degrees of freedom is the number of values in the final calculation of a statistic that are free to vary.
This is a sensible way to look at free will as well imo. What factors in any decision are free to vary. This would be a way of assessing degrees of freedom. And the degrees of freedom vary depending on circumstances.
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Quote:
redgreenvines said: sorry about responding to a rebuttal of a removal, but are you now equating free will with unrestrained ability to do what you want?
i.e. have you disconnected it from will as a part of behavior, and are now connecting it to the rights and freedoms of human beings, which is more in the domain of laws of the land kind of thing.
I have for many years equated free will with the absence of coercion in the ability to exercise a desire, and equated will with the ability to exercise a desire.
We have gone back and forth on the latter various times. I believe this is because you equate free will with belief (as do I in that particular context when it is offered) and believe will and free will to be synonyms. If those semantics are agreed upon then I would agree with you.
However, will and it's various connotations are deeply embedded in English and to deny them would create a lot of dissonance in speech (as I was pointing out in my original rebuttal).
Are you willing to have this conversation with me? If the answer is yes then I will insist you have will. Is it free will? It is, in the sense that another individual isn't forcing you to participate, which I hope is the case.
If someone is forcing you to post here, give us a sign and we'll notify the proper authorities!
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Rahz]
#28578352 - 12/11/23 09:25 AM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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I am open to having this conversation, and I am interested in having this conversation, and you can parse it any way you like. I do not use the word will or willing to declare the same meaning, because it is not reliably meaningful to me or to the people I dialog with. Old habits die hard, but they do die eventually.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28578514 - 12/11/23 12:31 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said:
Quote:
sudly said: The understanding presented here positions the self as a dynamic, evolving entity intricately woven into the entire being.
I think the answer you'll arrive at depends on whether you view the self as a dichotomy of the self as a separate entity from your being, or as the outcome of the dynamic integration of ongoing interactions within an expanded understanding of nature and nurture. Same goes for free will imo.
When making decisions, our considerations often involve influence from what we perceive the perspectives of those around us to be. At other times we are alone and only responsible to ourselves.
The self is not an independently existing essence but a dynamic and interdependent process. The self as a perception itself, rather than a distinct entity that does the perceiving.
Imo.
You’re starting to sound like Deepak Chopra. Seriously read what you just wrote in the voice of Deepak Chopra lol
What answer did you arrive at?
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Bardy


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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: I'm fascinated by the nature of self-discipline, setting intentions, & resisting temptations. It can be argued the 600 lb man who dies at 45 from numerous diseases caused by obesity didn't make decisions, just like the fit 80 year old who ate healthy for decades and exercises is not making choices. It all just "happens" to us. Drunks and heroin users don't choose to quit - it just happens - like the rain
They all still make decisions. The decisions are not free though.
I can decide to drink a glass of water right now, but if I do it’s predetermined. That doesn’t mean I didn’t still decide to do it or not. Decision making is separate from free will. This is one spot where I think Sudly is getting confused. He’s basically redefining free will as decision making.
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Freedom
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28578603 - 12/11/23 01:37 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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from wiki: Quote:
Free will is the notional capacity or ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded.
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Bardy


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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Rahz]
#28578617 - 12/11/23 01:44 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Free will is a slippery word.
For instance Bardy mentioned "The belief one could have done otherwise".
Off the bat, it's being defined as a belief. Can one who holds this belief prove it? No? Then I don't believe in it.
The word isn’t slippery, people are lol.
We don’t have to define it as a belief. We can instead define it as a feeling I guess… “The feeling that you could have done otherwise”.
I’d argue that it’s not a feeling though, and that we’re just confusing the feeling of “wanting something and then acting in accordance“ with this definition. So I like the definition “The belief that…” much better.
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Bardy


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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28578628 - 12/11/23 01:52 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
Bardy said:
Quote:
Kickle said: This topic (free will) now strikes me as a good illustration of black/white thinking. Either it's free, or it's not. Like a computer. It's either a 0 or a 1. Such binary categorization can be a helpful to process things which are very complex. But it's a method which is not very representative IMO
I believe that it is a method which can be representative of basic statements. As in, if I said to you that all people have three arms, we know that this is false.
I agree that with larger issues such as geopolitics, morals and ethics that black and white thinking likely isn’t the best way of doing things, but in cases such as making the positive assertion that free will exists, we can observe the world and come to the conclusion that this claim is either true or false.
Revisit my original comment. I did not assert or deny free will but instead suggested such stances are an example of black/white thinking.
It's my estimation that some pitfalls of black/white thinking are that nuance is completely lost, dialogue breaks down, and us vs them predominates.
I’d politely recommend you revisit my comment too, as I did not claim that you made any assertion about free will. I was just using that assertion as an example.
I understand you were suggesting it is black and white thinking and I was trying to make the point that we cannot escape from that, because true and false statements exist.
However, just because we might disagree in a black and white way about something does not mean we should start trying to kill each other. To me that is an illogical jump that a lot of people do take haha.
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Kickle
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28578710 - 12/11/23 02:46 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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I reread it. I flatly disagree that free will is observably false, or true. I don't agree with black/white thinking on this topic.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Rahz
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28578713 - 12/11/23 02:49 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said:
Quote:
Rahz said: Free will is a slippery word.
For instance Bardy mentioned "The belief one could have done otherwise".
Off the bat, it's being defined as a belief. Can one who holds this belief prove it? No? Then I don't believe in it.
The word isn’t slippery, people are lol.
We don’t have to define it as a belief. We can instead define it as a feeling I guess… “The feeling that you could have done otherwise”.
I’d argue that it’s not a feeling though, and that we’re just confusing the feeling of “wanting something and then acting in accordance“ with this definition. So I like the definition “The belief that…” much better.
People have been having philosophical arguments over free will for eons. It's a slippery word. The exception being, if we take it at it's face value legal argument. Then it makes good sense and there's nothing to argue about. But people often aren't happy with that proposition. They want it to be more.
We don't have to define it as a belief... but you did. The nature of belief is generally that it constitutes some immediately unprovable quality, hence the need for belief. I don't suggest that beliefs have no utility because they do and are essential to humans being functional but they have their limits. This is generally found in the ability to test said belief and speaks to risk assessment which is fine as long as it doesn't impede good logic.
That is why I ask, can a belief be proven (or tested)? If not, then we must question whether having a particular belief holds even a modicum of functionality or if it's rather a sign of dysfunctionality, or attempt at avoiding cognitive dissonance.
We could define it as a feeling but doing so doesn't change the problems associated with it being a belief. Beliefs are often predicated on feelings. We could call it an idea, a proposition, a possibility. Whatever the case I would ask (specifically in regard to having been able to have chosen otherwise) is, can this be proven? If not, why should I hold it as a belief? Why should I consider it a useful feeling? Why should I consider the idea or proposition of it to have merit?
It's been said before that even if free will is an illusion the belief in it could provide enthusiasm that would otherwise be absent. That's reasonable, but one might want to consider why this is so. Is there some other illusion that necessitates further illusion to set things straight?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Rahz] 1
#28578891 - 12/11/23 04:38 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Part of our basic condition is having to act with incomplete knowledge. Like in poker you place bets but you don't know what's in the other's hand. Or I can read your words but can never be certain what they mean to you.
Its like we never quite know what the situation is fully, and we never know fully the consequences of our actions. We only see facets of things, things themselves are just facets of the universe, and we tend to make meaning of things by relating them to ourselves.
People seem to have trouble living with uncertainty, so they cling to beliefs as truths. A strong or charismatic leader comes around and says, "I know how it works, follow me!", and we trade the truth of uncertainty for a false security and delusion. Its false because part of us knows we're lying to ourselves. The delusional beliefs add another layer of uncertainty, and create conflict, as people start thinking of their way as the 'right' way. Right and wrong spring up with force created by the fear of the uncertainty of our lives. When this gets more extreme you get fundamentalism, conspiracy theories, dogma, authoritarian rule, war, and genocide.
I think a lot of people don't have the psychological freedom to consider alternatives when they have a belief that is soothing an insecurity. Its not a lack of logicial potential, its more a lack of receptivity to fear or other 'difficult' emotions. This also works in reverse, where a truth or observation is not believed because it activates our fear.
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sudly
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Rahz]
#28578918 - 12/11/23 04:52 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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The idea behind this saying has been insightful for reflecting on some of my own struggles in life.
Quote:
Trauma is what didn't happen, and regret isn't knowing what you'll do next time.
It's just a saying open to change, but I can find meaning in it.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom] 1
#28578950 - 12/11/23 05:10 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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People seem to have trouble living with uncertainty, so they cling to beliefs as truths.
What would be difficult about uncertainty? Also, what is uncertainty?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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sudly
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28578954 - 12/11/23 05:12 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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A feeling of ambivilance.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28578998 - 12/11/23 05:43 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: People seem to have trouble living with uncertainty, so they cling to beliefs as truths.
What would be difficult about uncertainty? Also, what is uncertainty?
the difficulty comes when I believe I need certain things to be ok, like my career, or my wife, or my kids being a certain way, or liking me, or people seeing me as good and wise and trustworthy, or having a certain income, or having certain objects.....
everything is flux, including the things i want to hold on to.
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#28579050 - 12/11/23 06:19 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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So is flux the root of uncertainty IYO?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28579052 - 12/11/23 06:22 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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i think it needs attachment too
the attachemnt is the subject of the uncertainty
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#28579055 - 12/11/23 06:25 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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All seeds need water to grow
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Rahz
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#28579075 - 12/11/23 06:48 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Agreed. I think the gist of Asante's post is "Don't take the sugar pill, be the placebo".
I was originally going to reply to the OP with a rebuttal but he's been at this for a while now and his delivery gets better. 
Perhaps there is not a false and true, just different aspects of the same thing which happen to produce vastly different perceptions about it at times. "We are one but we're not the same". Should one's sense of individuality or sense of oneness cancel the other out? What's the "real real"? Does there need to be a real real? Or perhaps just a matter of maintaining some perspective on it all? And the freedom of not needing an answer?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle] 2
#28579141 - 12/11/23 07:26 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: People seem to have trouble living with uncertainty, so they cling to beliefs as truths.
What would be difficult about uncertainty? Also, what is uncertainty?
I think uncertainty is not being familiar with the situation that a person is facing.
this is part of the core aspect of consciousness as a navigation adaptation millions of years ago. our minds save impressions of the paths we take so we can retrace that path to get to safety or to food, etc. The necessities become familiar, and we use familiarity to navigate to what is needed. This is how associative mind has come to be.
all creatures are somewhat unsettled by the unfamiliar [uncertainty], although as cubs, kits, kids, nymphs etc, the unfamiliar also presents an alluring challenge to play with and learn.
soon all that is safe, near the home, permitted by one's caregivers, becomes familiar to the growing kids.
they move on, and maybe move out to confront the unfamiliar in more daring escapades.
As adulthood dawns, that which is unfamiliar becomes more acutely disturbing, threatening. Adults don't want to play, they want to get on with business, without uncertainty, by default mode mostly.
Even in ordinary life, how often have I heard "I don't know what to say..." especially when someone is sick, or died, or hurt, and really, that's a good, time to drop the adult mask, and confront the unfamiliar honestly - say what comes to mind like a child, it is an opportunity to learn.
We don't and can't be familiar with everything, so this braving of the strange part of our lives is something we have to adapt to situation by situation. Learning is the counterweight to uncertainty, and perseverance in the face of uncertainty keeps us young, and playful a bit too.
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Bardy


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Quote:
Kickle said: I reread it. I flatly disagree that free will is observably false, or true. I don't agree with black/white thinking on this topic.
Fair enough. Have you tried observing your free will?
There are simple tests… like picking a movie. The following is courtesy of Sam Harris. I feel like he just hits the nail on the head with it. See what you think
Quote:
Pick any movie you like and then try to pin down exactly where free will came into the decision.
A handful of movies will probably pop into your consciousness. Just pick one, and pay attention to what it is like to choose one. This is as free as any decision you’re ever going to make. You are completely free to choose any movie ever made. You can take as long as you want to.
Did you see any evidence for free will? Because if it’s not here, it’s not anywhere. So we better be able to find it. So let’s look for it.
First we’ll set aside all the movies you’ve never seen or heard about, and whose names and imagery are unknown to you. You couldn’t possibly pick one of those, so there’s obviously no freedom in that.
Then there are many other movies whose names are well known to you, many of which you’ve seen, but which didn’t occur to you to pick.
So consider the few movies that came to mind in light of all the movies that might have come to mind, but didn’t. And ask yourself; were you free to choose that which did not occur to you to choose? If you didn’t choose The Wizard of Oz, it is because the physical state of your brain was not in a position to think of it. And for reasons completely unknown to you that you cannot control, The Wizard of Oz just could not have popped into your mind in that moment.
Whether we live in a deterministic universe, or a deterministic universe with a dose of randomness, or a completely random universe, we are the product downstream of a cascade of causes. And no where in that stream do we get any say in what happens. All of this is just appearing in consciousness.
Free will is an enduring problem for philosophy and science for one reason only; people feel that they have it.
Did you experience it? Again, if it’s not here, it’s not anywhere. It is likely that every other choice you’ve made in your life has been more constrained than this one.
Let’s say you thought of the movies x,y and z, and you thought you’d go for y, but at the last second you thought nope, I’m gonna go for x. Ask yourself why you decided to go with x over y or z? Are you in any position to know how or why you did? You might have a story that you tell yourself about why you chose what you chose, but these types of stories have been shown in experiments to often be complete and utter works of fiction and can be easily manipulated in a lab setting. It is a fact that the judgements we make about the causes of our behaviour are often unreliable.
Even if you are correct in your judgement about the reason you picked x over y, you’re still in no position to know why that reason had the effect that it did. If you chose x because it brought back happy memories, why did you choose it because of those memories? Why didn’t you want to pick a movie that you thought was the worst of all time?
You’re just witnessing these decisions as they pop into consciousness.
I’ve kinda shrunk it down and paraphrased him a bit. The original audio is more persuasive I think.
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28579377 - 12/11/23 10:35 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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I’m convinced, but I do realise that I’m probably not going to convince anyone lol
Appreciate reading all your views.
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28579634 - 12/12/23 07:04 AM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Fair enough. Have you tried observing your free will?
Yes.
There are simple tests… like picking a movie.
I didn't understand the point of this at all. I'm not sure what is attempting to be shown. That someone can pick a movie from an assortment of movies? Or that choosing isn't something independent but rather has its own set of dependencies?
Being charitable I'd guess the latter. But it still leaves me going, yeah, duh, and...? The followup I see is a commentary on how some people are aware of their decision making and some aren't. Also, how when you manipulate what is connecting, you manipulate what is connected to. Obvious stuff IMO.
If I try to take on the perspective of free will as an absolute, meaning an independent thing with no ties to anything else, maybe this is a good negation. But I don't have that perspective at all, and would say it's silly from the jump. How could someone choose without connection? Isn't choice the emergence from many connections? Again, this just leaves me going, duh...
What am I missing here?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Kickle
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This is how associative mind has come to be.
I'm largely unfamiliar with so long ago
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28579692 - 12/12/23 08:18 AM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: This is how associative mind has come to be.
I'm largely unfamiliar with so long ago 
i'm being speculative about the evolution, before my time too.
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Kickle
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Just a little tongue in cheek that not all that is unfamiliar is equal imo
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28579766 - 12/12/23 09:27 AM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Without free will, what inspires suicide?
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here is another take
if you have free will, there has to be a you that has it. can you actually observe the you?
if you can't find a you, what has free will?
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#28579838 - 12/12/23 11:05 AM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Aren't words an attempt to describe relative reality, or reality as it appears?
"You" don't disappear if you mentally disprove yourself, for example. You still appear and others see you. Your actions still have consequences and you get to experience them. Things don't suddenly stop. Nor should the words I reckon.
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28579849 - 12/12/23 11:13 AM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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what's relative reality?
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Kickle
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#28579853 - 12/12/23 11:16 AM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Slow on the edit...
Reality as it appears
I.e. relative to me, you appear
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28579890 - 12/12/23 11:58 AM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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It may be that words/thoughts create reality, in that they slice it up into different parts. Like finger gets cut from hand, but then i can create a new thought, dinger, which is like a finger but lacks everthing from the last nuckle. Thats not a real thing, its an artificial seperation of the dinger from the finger from the hand from the body from the universe
and even 'universe' is mental trick, existinng in relatin to an imaginary non-universe
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redgreenvines
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: Without free will, what inspires suicide?
monkey see monkey do? or revenge or nothing stops the pain
the 3rd one after some consideration makes sense, but the other 2 are whacked
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#28579924 - 12/12/23 12:34 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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It may be that words/thoughts create reality, in that they slice it up into different parts.
Not IME
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28579936 - 12/12/23 12:42 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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they collide with reality and are inseparable from reality.
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Kickle
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You use an atypical definition of thought tho
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28580018 - 12/12/23 01:58 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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I think it is a thorough way of seeing it
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28580073 - 12/12/23 02:24 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: It may be that words/thoughts create reality, in that they slice it up into different parts.
Not IME
the habit of linking thought to sensation is so quick and automatic its hard to see.
here is a simple example: oregon only exist because its been cut out of america. the borders between oregon, washington and idaho are imaginary. these borders are what create the thought construct oregon, but that doesn't exist outside the thought construct.
now we may say, ok , no oregon but there is land there. but in the same way we created in imaginary border between washington and oregon, we create an imaginary border between the earth and air. both concepts, earth and air, depend on the border between them. this border doesn't exist in actuality, but is a creation of thought
one of the ways people get into conflict is they take their borders for reality and then get into arguments about which imaginary borders are true lol
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Bardy


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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28580080 - 12/12/23 02:34 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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that choosing has its own set of dependencies
This is close to what he’s saying I think. I think what he’s saying is more like everything you ever do or think is a consequence of your prior condition.
If you agree with that then I’m not sure how you can manage to squeeze any kind of free will in there?
First of all, what do you define free will as? Because I don’t think I’ve seen you put forward a definition yet, or explain how you think it’s possible we might have it.
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28580103 - 12/12/23 02:59 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
In statistics, the number of degrees of freedom is the number of values in the final calculation of a statistic that are free to vary.
This is a sensible way to look at free will as well imo. What factors in any decision are free to vary. This would be a way of assessing degrees of freedom. And the degrees of freedom vary depending on circumstances.
There are plenty of physics rebuttals to determinism as you've described. So I don't agree with determinism.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#28580162 - 12/12/23 04:08 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said:
Quote:
Kickle said: It may be that words/thoughts create reality, in that they slice it up into different parts.
Not IME
the habit of linking thought to sensation is so quick and automatic its hard to see.
here is a simple example: oregon only exist because its been cut out of america. the borders between oregon, washington and idaho are imaginary. these borders are what create the thought construct oregon, but that doesn't exist outside the thought construct.
now we may say, ok , no oregon but there is land there. but in the same way we created in imaginary border between washington and oregon, we create an imaginary border between the earth and air. both concepts, earth and air, depend on the border between them. this border doesn't exist in actuality, but is a creation of thought
one of the ways people get into conflict is they take their borders for reality and then get into arguments about which imaginary borders are true lol
I like that about taking abstract divisions too seriously.
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28580169 - 12/12/23 04:20 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
Kickle said:
In statistics, the number of degrees of freedom is the number of values in the final calculation of a statistic that are free to vary.
This is a sensible way to look at free will as well imo. What factors in any decision are free to vary. This would be a way of assessing degrees of freedom. And the degrees of freedom vary depending on circumstances.
There are plenty of physics rebuttals to determinism as you've described. So I don't agree with determinism.
again, the word determinism comes up, it is the linear association to the non-linear idea that the waves of unfolding reality cascade forth from the conditions leading up to the moment on a continuing basis. and it is a dualistic distinction in a situation that is non-dual.
if you look backwards into the genesis of any configuration, some of the contributing factors in an open system will be obvious. IN a closed system much can be locked down, but this is not necessary to appreciate that things are continuously interacting all together. seeking their own equilibrium in ways that can be observed.
I think that determinism minimizes the totality of it. and the totality is really too much to grasp. But each part is true to its nature, and it is worth looking into the nature of things.
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28580216 - 12/12/23 04:53 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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From Wikipedia: The number of independent pieces of information that go into the estimate of a parameter is called the degrees of freedom.
These statistics are based on known variables, which they describe as degrees of freedom. But, in reality, there is no freedom in whatever the values of variables are. If the wind speed outside is 20km/h there is no freedom in that. That wind speed is caused by an incomprehensible amount of other variables which no one is free to change just like no one is free to change the incomprehensible number of variables inside their own body. This has nothing to do with free will, or the free will that most people think they have, other than they share the word “free”.
There may be rebuttals to determinism, but the absence of free will does not hinge on whether or not determinism is true. It hinges on the nature of cause and effect.
The universe could be imagined as being 100% random in nature and we’d still find no room for free will. What is free about complete randomness?
We’d just be completely and utterly helpless and strapped in for the ride either way.
In my opinion the idea of free will seems to be upheld in peoples belief system by a type of “god of the gaps” argument.
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28580254 - 12/12/23 05:16 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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all the same, we create some order in society by engaging in a moral social contracts, and we maintain that as best we can follow the orders that the contract implies.
I don't know about the next guy, but a new rule comes up, that must be followed, I have to practice following it, or it wont take.
and if an old rule changes, it also takes some adaptation and practice to follow it.
I am sure the crux of free will is about the social contract and how it is implemented.
I managed to get out of some contracts, but never had to go morally bankrupt.
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Kickle
Wanderer



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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28580266 - 12/12/23 05:26 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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there is no freedom in whatever the values of variables are. If the wind speed outside is 20km/h there is no freedom in that.
Are you suggesting a static existence where this 20km/h wind exists?
Freeze frame examinations are typical for our higher level processing of the world, but there is nothing which stops. Or starts for that matter. IMO
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
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But each part is true to its nature, and it is worth looking into the nature of things.
We probably have very different terminology here. But conceptually may converge. I'm not sure. Can you elaborate on what you refer to as the nature of things?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28580347 - 12/12/23 06:48 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Yes. Yes I’m suggesting that there exists wind that only ever goes 20km/h. /s
Yes.. I agree we don’t observe anything that stops or starts. In fact that’s what I’ve been saying this whole time in a round about way. It’s all one giant process called the universe.
Now; where’s the free will again? Free will is in statistics?
I’ll leave you alone Kickle, I appreciate the back and forth. I feel like I’m getting too passionate 😁 thanks
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Kickle
Wanderer



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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#28580349 - 12/12/23 06:49 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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the habit of linking thought to sensation is so quick and automatic its hard to see.
I take from this that you do not think they are symbiotic but are rather something else?
I agree with your Oregon example. But suspect that there is more going on than simply overlap between thinking and sensing. Perhaps an imbalance.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28580360 - 12/12/23 06:55 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said: I appreciate the back and forth. I feel like I’m getting too passionate 😁 thanks
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28580370 - 12/12/23 07:01 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: But each part is true to its nature, and it is worth looking into the nature of things.
We probably have very different terminology here. But conceptually may converge. I'm not sure. Can you elaborate on what you refer to as the nature of things?
each thing and creature has composition and potential to interact in many ways internally and with other entities in the world.
I am sure that we have different preconceived notions and the terminology speaks to those notions.
however if you are looking into the nature of things along side me, things can be fun as the notions dance their dance.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28580381 - 12/12/23 07:12 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: ... I agree with your Oregon example. But suspect that there is more going on than simply overlap between thinking and sensing. Perhaps an imbalance.
sensing and thinking are active among the same cortical neurons in the conscious mind at the same time and become memory automatically by being contemporaneously active (within the same 1/10th of a second).
sometimes too much thinking swamps sensory contact with the world, and that would be a kind of unbalance.
this kind of mental content (thinking) can be differentiated from pure sensation at the thalamus, and can be attenuated as TOP DOWN originating signals, versus BOTTOM UP originating signals from sensation.
I find that sniffing causes a reflex that can attenuate TOP DOWN mental content (i.e. thinking) Olfactory Bulb -> hypothalamus -> gabaergic signals to thalamus -> cuts cortical feedback where no recent sensation is on the circuit.-> this stops TOP DOWN perceptive feedback. (i.e. thinking) favoring a sensory flood for a moment.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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What if free will is just knowing the worth of your actions..
I'm not getting Oreos today, despite my desire for them, and habit of eating them, I recognise the long term negative consequence of the habit. 1 pack is 500 calories or 20% of my daily intake.
That adds up over time and is why I've put on some weight recently. I've lost weight before, and it's these kind of decisions that do it.
Am I predetermined to lose weight? Will it happen on its own?
Well, if I don't make the turn to the store, it goes that way.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Bardy


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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: sudly]
#28580666 - 12/12/23 11:29 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Nothing happens on its own. It happens or it doesn’t.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28580698 - 12/13/23 01:55 AM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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happy birthday redgreenvines
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: Without free will, what inspires suicide?
monkey see monkey do? or revenge or nothing stops the pain
the 3rd one after some consideration makes sense, but the other 2 are whacked
lots is whacked
meditation and yoga then
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,127
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Ferdinando]
#28580780 - 12/13/23 05:15 AM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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You are an absolute legend, Ferdinando!
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,127
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Ferdinando]
#28580786 - 12/13/23 05:24 AM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Ferdinando said: happy birthday redgreenvines
Is it RGV's birthday today?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Pinkerton] 1
#28580819 - 12/13/23 06:14 AM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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yes
agree about Quote:
Knowing the worth of your actions
mentioned by sudly
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,127
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