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Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 7 minutes
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You use an atypical definition of thought tho
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28580018 - 12/12/23 01:58 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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I think it is a thorough way of seeing it
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28580073 - 12/12/23 02:24 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: It may be that words/thoughts create reality, in that they slice it up into different parts.
Not IME
the habit of linking thought to sensation is so quick and automatic its hard to see.
here is a simple example: oregon only exist because its been cut out of america. the borders between oregon, washington and idaho are imaginary. these borders are what create the thought construct oregon, but that doesn't exist outside the thought construct.
now we may say, ok , no oregon but there is land there. but in the same way we created in imaginary border between washington and oregon, we create an imaginary border between the earth and air. both concepts, earth and air, depend on the border between them. this border doesn't exist in actuality, but is a creation of thought
one of the ways people get into conflict is they take their borders for reality and then get into arguments about which imaginary borders are true lol
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 11 minutes, 52 seconds
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28580080 - 12/12/23 02:34 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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that choosing has its own set of dependencies
This is close to what heās saying I think. I think what heās saying is more like everything you ever do or think is a consequence of your prior condition.
If you agree with that then Iām not sure how you can manage to squeeze any kind of free will in there?
First of all, what do you define free will as? Because I donāt think Iāve seen you put forward a definition yet, or explain how you think itās possible we might have it.
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Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28580103 - 12/12/23 02:59 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
In statistics, the number of degrees of freedom is the number of values in the final calculation of a statistic that are free to vary.
This is a sensible way to look at free will as well imo. What factors in any decision are free to vary. This would be a way of assessing degrees of freedom. And the degrees of freedom vary depending on circumstances.
There are plenty of physics rebuttals to determinism as you've described. So I don't agree with determinism.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#28580162 - 12/12/23 04:08 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said:
Quote:
Kickle said: It may be that words/thoughts create reality, in that they slice it up into different parts.
Not IME
the habit of linking thought to sensation is so quick and automatic its hard to see.
here is a simple example: oregon only exist because its been cut out of america. the borders between oregon, washington and idaho are imaginary. these borders are what create the thought construct oregon, but that doesn't exist outside the thought construct.
now we may say, ok , no oregon but there is land there. but in the same way we created in imaginary border between washington and oregon, we create an imaginary border between the earth and air. both concepts, earth and air, depend on the border between them. this border doesn't exist in actuality, but is a creation of thought
one of the ways people get into conflict is they take their borders for reality and then get into arguments about which imaginary borders are true lol
I like that about taking abstract divisions too seriously.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28580169 - 12/12/23 04:20 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
Kickle said:
In statistics, the number of degrees of freedom is the number of values in the final calculation of a statistic that are free to vary.
This is a sensible way to look at free will as well imo. What factors in any decision are free to vary. This would be a way of assessing degrees of freedom. And the degrees of freedom vary depending on circumstances.
There are plenty of physics rebuttals to determinism as you've described. So I don't agree with determinism.
again, the word determinism comes up, it is the linear association to the non-linear idea that the waves of unfolding reality cascade forth from the conditions leading up to the moment on a continuing basis. and it is a dualistic distinction in a situation that is non-dual.
if you look backwards into the genesis of any configuration, some of the contributing factors in an open system will be obvious. IN a closed system much can be locked down, but this is not necessary to appreciate that things are continuously interacting all together. seeking their own equilibrium in ways that can be observed.
I think that determinism minimizes the totality of it. and the totality is really too much to grasp. But each part is true to its nature, and it is worth looking into the nature of things.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Last seen: 11 minutes, 52 seconds
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28580216 - 12/12/23 04:53 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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From Wikipedia: The number of independent pieces of information that go into the estimate of a parameter is called the degrees of freedom.
These statistics are based on known variables, which they describe as degrees of freedom. But, in reality, there is no freedom in whatever the values of variables are. If the wind speed outside is 20km/h there is no freedom in that. That wind speed is caused by an incomprehensible amount of other variables which no one is free to change just like no one is free to change the incomprehensible number of variables inside their own body. This has nothing to do with free will, or the free will that most people think they have, other than they share the word āfreeā.
There may be rebuttals to determinism, but the absence of free will does not hinge on whether or not determinism is true. It hinges on the nature of cause and effect.
The universe could be imagined as being 100% random in nature and weād still find no room for free will. What is free about complete randomness?
Weād just be completely and utterly helpless and strapped in for the ride either way.
In my opinion the idea of free will seems to be upheld in peoples belief system by a type of āgod of the gapsā argument.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28580254 - 12/12/23 05:16 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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all the same, we create some order in society by engaging in a moral social contracts, and we maintain that as best we can follow the orders that the contract implies.
I don't know about the next guy, but a new rule comes up, that must be followed, I have to practice following it, or it wont take.
and if an old rule changes, it also takes some adaptation and practice to follow it.
I am sure the crux of free will is about the social contract and how it is implemented.
I managed to get out of some contracts, but never had to go morally bankrupt.
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Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28580266 - 12/12/23 05:26 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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there is no freedom in whatever the values of variables are. If the wind speed outside is 20km/h there is no freedom in that.
Are you suggesting a static existence where this 20km/h wind exists?
Freeze frame examinations are typical for our higher level processing of the world, but there is nothing which stops. Or starts for that matter. IMO
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 7 minutes
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But each part is true to its nature, and it is worth looking into the nature of things.
We probably have very different terminology here. But conceptually may converge. I'm not sure. Can you elaborate on what you refer to as the nature of things?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 11 minutes, 52 seconds
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28580347 - 12/12/23 06:48 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Yes. Yes Iām suggesting that there exists wind that only ever goes 20km/h. /s
Yes.. I agree we donāt observe anything that stops or starts. In fact thatās what Iāve been saying this whole time in a round about way. Itās all one giant process called the universe.
Now; whereās the free will again? Free will is in statistics?
Iāll leave you alone Kickle, I appreciate the back and forth. I feel like Iām getting too passionate š thanks
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Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#28580349 - 12/12/23 06:49 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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the habit of linking thought to sensation is so quick and automatic its hard to see.
I take from this that you do not think they are symbiotic but are rather something else?
I agree with your Oregon example. But suspect that there is more going on than simply overlap between thinking and sensing. Perhaps an imbalance.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 7 minutes
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28580360 - 12/12/23 06:55 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said: I appreciate the back and forth. I feel like Iām getting too passionate š thanks
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28580370 - 12/12/23 07:01 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: But each part is true to its nature, and it is worth looking into the nature of things.
We probably have very different terminology here. But conceptually may converge. I'm not sure. Can you elaborate on what you refer to as the nature of things?
each thing and creature has composition and potential to interact in many ways internally and with other entities in the world.
I am sure that we have different preconceived notions and the terminology speaks to those notions.
however if you are looking into the nature of things along side me, things can be fun as the notions dance their dance.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28580381 - 12/12/23 07:12 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: ... I agree with your Oregon example. But suspect that there is more going on than simply overlap between thinking and sensing. Perhaps an imbalance.
sensing and thinking are active among the same cortical neurons in the conscious mind at the same time and become memory automatically by being contemporaneously active (within the same 1/10th of a second).
sometimes too much thinking swamps sensory contact with the world, and that would be a kind of unbalance.
this kind of mental content (thinking) can be differentiated from pure sensation at the thalamus, and can be attenuated as TOP DOWN originating signals, versus BOTTOM UP originating signals from sensation.
I find that sniffing causes a reflex that can attenuate TOP DOWN mental content (i.e. thinking) Olfactory Bulb -> hypothalamus -> gabaergic signals to thalamus -> cuts cortical feedback where no recent sensation is on the circuit.-> this stops TOP DOWN perceptive feedback. (i.e. thinking) favoring a sensory flood for a moment.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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What if free will is just knowing the worth of your actions..
I'm not getting Oreos today, despite my desire for them, and habit of eating them, I recognise the long term negative consequence of the habit. 1 pack is 500 calories or 20% of my daily intake.
That adds up over time and is why I've put on some weight recently. I've lost weight before, and it's these kind of decisions that do it.
Am I predetermined to lose weight? Will it happen on its own?
Well, if I don't make the turn to the store, it goes that way.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Last seen: 11 minutes, 52 seconds
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: sudly]
#28580666 - 12/12/23 11:29 PM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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Nothing happens on its own. It happens or it doesnāt.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28580698 - 12/13/23 01:55 AM (1 month, 15 days ago) |
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happy birthday redgreenvines
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: Without free will, what inspires suicide?
monkey see monkey do? or revenge or nothing stops the pain
the 3rd one after some consideration makes sense, but the other 2 are whacked
lots is whacked
meditation and yoga then
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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