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Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#28579050 - 12/11/23 06:19 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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So is flux the root of uncertainty IYO?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28579052 - 12/11/23 06:22 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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i think it needs attachment too
the attachemnt is the subject of the uncertainty
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Kickle
Wanderer



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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#28579055 - 12/11/23 06:25 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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All seeds need water to grow
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#28579075 - 12/11/23 06:48 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Agreed. I think the gist of Asante's post is "Don't take the sugar pill, be the placebo".
I was originally going to reply to the OP with a rebuttal but he's been at this for a while now and his delivery gets better. 
Perhaps there is not a false and true, just different aspects of the same thing which happen to produce vastly different perceptions about it at times. "We are one but we're not the same". Should one's sense of individuality or sense of oneness cancel the other out? What's the "real real"? Does there need to be a real real? Or perhaps just a matter of maintaining some perspective on it all? And the freedom of not needing an answer?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle] 2
#28579141 - 12/11/23 07:26 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: People seem to have trouble living with uncertainty, so they cling to beliefs as truths.
What would be difficult about uncertainty? Also, what is uncertainty?
I think uncertainty is not being familiar with the situation that a person is facing.
this is part of the core aspect of consciousness as a navigation adaptation millions of years ago. our minds save impressions of the paths we take so we can retrace that path to get to safety or to food, etc. The necessities become familiar, and we use familiarity to navigate to what is needed. This is how associative mind has come to be.
all creatures are somewhat unsettled by the unfamiliar [uncertainty], although as cubs, kits, kids, nymphs etc, the unfamiliar also presents an alluring challenge to play with and learn.
soon all that is safe, near the home, permitted by one's caregivers, becomes familiar to the growing kids.
they move on, and maybe move out to confront the unfamiliar in more daring escapades.
As adulthood dawns, that which is unfamiliar becomes more acutely disturbing, threatening. Adults don't want to play, they want to get on with business, without uncertainty, by default mode mostly.
Even in ordinary life, how often have I heard "I don't know what to say..." especially when someone is sick, or died, or hurt, and really, that's a good, time to drop the adult mask, and confront the unfamiliar honestly - say what comes to mind like a child, it is an opportunity to learn.
We don't and can't be familiar with everything, so this braving of the strange part of our lives is something we have to adapt to situation by situation. Learning is the counterweight to uncertainty, and perseverance in the face of uncertainty keeps us young, and playful a bit too.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Quote:
Kickle said: I reread it. I flatly disagree that free will is observably false, or true. I don't agree with black/white thinking on this topic.
Fair enough. Have you tried observing your free will?
There are simple tests… like picking a movie. The following is courtesy of Sam Harris. I feel like he just hits the nail on the head with it. See what you think
Quote:
Pick any movie you like and then try to pin down exactly where free will came into the decision.
A handful of movies will probably pop into your consciousness. Just pick one, and pay attention to what it is like to choose one. This is as free as any decision you’re ever going to make. You are completely free to choose any movie ever made. You can take as long as you want to.
Did you see any evidence for free will? Because if it’s not here, it’s not anywhere. So we better be able to find it. So let’s look for it.
First we’ll set aside all the movies you’ve never seen or heard about, and whose names and imagery are unknown to you. You couldn’t possibly pick one of those, so there’s obviously no freedom in that.
Then there are many other movies whose names are well known to you, many of which you’ve seen, but which didn’t occur to you to pick.
So consider the few movies that came to mind in light of all the movies that might have come to mind, but didn’t. And ask yourself; were you free to choose that which did not occur to you to choose? If you didn’t choose The Wizard of Oz, it is because the physical state of your brain was not in a position to think of it. And for reasons completely unknown to you that you cannot control, The Wizard of Oz just could not have popped into your mind in that moment.
Whether we live in a deterministic universe, or a deterministic universe with a dose of randomness, or a completely random universe, we are the product downstream of a cascade of causes. And no where in that stream do we get any say in what happens. All of this is just appearing in consciousness.
Free will is an enduring problem for philosophy and science for one reason only; people feel that they have it.
Did you experience it? Again, if it’s not here, it’s not anywhere. It is likely that every other choice you’ve made in your life has been more constrained than this one.
Let’s say you thought of the movies x,y and z, and you thought you’d go for y, but at the last second you thought nope, I’m gonna go for x. Ask yourself why you decided to go with x over y or z? Are you in any position to know how or why you did? You might have a story that you tell yourself about why you chose what you chose, but these types of stories have been shown in experiments to often be complete and utter works of fiction and can be easily manipulated in a lab setting. It is a fact that the judgements we make about the causes of our behaviour are often unreliable.
Even if you are correct in your judgement about the reason you picked x over y, you’re still in no position to know why that reason had the effect that it did. If you chose x because it brought back happy memories, why did you choose it because of those memories? Why didn’t you want to pick a movie that you thought was the worst of all time?
You’re just witnessing these decisions as they pop into consciousness.
I’ve kinda shrunk it down and paraphrased him a bit. The original audio is more persuasive I think.
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Bardy


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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28579377 - 12/11/23 10:35 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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I’m convinced, but I do realise that I’m probably not going to convince anyone lol
Appreciate reading all your views.
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Kickle
Wanderer



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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28579634 - 12/12/23 07:04 AM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Fair enough. Have you tried observing your free will?
Yes.
There are simple tests… like picking a movie.
I didn't understand the point of this at all. I'm not sure what is attempting to be shown. That someone can pick a movie from an assortment of movies? Or that choosing isn't something independent but rather has its own set of dependencies?
Being charitable I'd guess the latter. But it still leaves me going, yeah, duh, and...? The followup I see is a commentary on how some people are aware of their decision making and some aren't. Also, how when you manipulate what is connecting, you manipulate what is connected to. Obvious stuff IMO.
If I try to take on the perspective of free will as an absolute, meaning an independent thing with no ties to anything else, maybe this is a good negation. But I don't have that perspective at all, and would say it's silly from the jump. How could someone choose without connection? Isn't choice the emergence from many connections? Again, this just leaves me going, duh...
What am I missing here?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Kickle
Wanderer



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This is how associative mind has come to be.
I'm largely unfamiliar with so long ago
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28579692 - 12/12/23 08:18 AM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: This is how associative mind has come to be.
I'm largely unfamiliar with so long ago 
i'm being speculative about the evolution, before my time too.
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Kickle
Wanderer



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Just a little tongue in cheek that not all that is unfamiliar is equal imo
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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RJ Tubs 202



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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28579766 - 12/12/23 09:27 AM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Without free will, what inspires suicide?
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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here is another take
if you have free will, there has to be a you that has it. can you actually observe the you?
if you can't find a you, what has free will?
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Kickle
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#28579838 - 12/12/23 11:05 AM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Aren't words an attempt to describe relative reality, or reality as it appears?
"You" don't disappear if you mentally disprove yourself, for example. You still appear and others see you. Your actions still have consequences and you get to experience them. Things don't suddenly stop. Nor should the words I reckon.
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Freedom
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28579849 - 12/12/23 11:13 AM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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what's relative reality?
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Kickle
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#28579853 - 12/12/23 11:16 AM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Slow on the edit...
Reality as it appears
I.e. relative to me, you appear
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28579890 - 12/12/23 11:58 AM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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It may be that words/thoughts create reality, in that they slice it up into different parts. Like finger gets cut from hand, but then i can create a new thought, dinger, which is like a finger but lacks everthing from the last nuckle. Thats not a real thing, its an artificial seperation of the dinger from the finger from the hand from the body from the universe
and even 'universe' is mental trick, existinng in relatin to an imaginary non-universe
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: Without free will, what inspires suicide?
monkey see monkey do? or revenge or nothing stops the pain
the 3rd one after some consideration makes sense, but the other 2 are whacked
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Kickle
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#28579924 - 12/12/23 12:34 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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It may be that words/thoughts create reality, in that they slice it up into different parts.
Not IME
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28579936 - 12/12/23 12:42 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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they collide with reality and are inseparable from reality.
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