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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Free will is a slippery word. Perhaps because we've been conditioned to a mystical definition. "Ability to do what one wants". This is what I consider "will". If one is going to apply free to it then there needs to be some meaningful difference between will and free will. What about free will is more free than will? Being practical, it speaks to absence of coercion.
This is reasonable. It works. It doesn't produce confusion.
So in answering the question I would first ask for a definition. Very important for good communication on the subject.
For instance Bardy mentioned "The belief one could have done otherwise".
Off the bat, it's being defined as a belief. Can one who holds this belief prove it? No? Then I don't believe in it.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Rahz]
#28578177 - 12/11/23 07:21 AM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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sorry about responding to a rebuttal of a removal, but are you now equating free will with unrestrained ability to do what you want?
i.e. have you disconnected it from will as a part of behavior, and are now connecting it to the rights and freedoms of human beings, which is more in the domain of laws of the land kind of thing.
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Kickle
Wanderer



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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28578183 - 12/11/23 07:25 AM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said:
Quote:
Kickle said: This topic (free will) now strikes me as a good illustration of black/white thinking. Either it's free, or it's not. Like a computer. It's either a 0 or a 1. Such binary categorization can be a helpful to process things which are very complex. But it's a method which is not very representative IMO
I believe that it is a method which can be representative of basic statements. As in, if I said to you that all people have three arms, we know that this is false.
I agree that with larger issues such as geopolitics, morals and ethics that black and white thinking likely isn’t the best way of doing things, but in cases such as making the positive assertion that free will exists, we can observe the world and come to the conclusion that this claim is either true or false.
Revisit my original comment. I did not assert or deny free will but instead suggested such stances are an example of black/white thinking.
It's my estimation that some pitfalls of black/white thinking are that nuance is completely lost, dialogue breaks down, and us vs them predominates.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28578186 - 12/11/23 07:26 AM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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some of my best thinking is in black and white
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Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
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It has utility. So does recognition
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Kickle
Wanderer



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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Rahz] 1
#28578252 - 12/11/23 08:18 AM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: So in answering the question I would first ask for a definition. Very important for good communication on the subject.
In statistics, the number of degrees of freedom is the number of values in the final calculation of a statistic that are free to vary.
This is a sensible way to look at free will as well imo. What factors in any decision are free to vary. This would be a way of assessing degrees of freedom. And the degrees of freedom vary depending on circumstances.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: sorry about responding to a rebuttal of a removal, but are you now equating free will with unrestrained ability to do what you want?
i.e. have you disconnected it from will as a part of behavior, and are now connecting it to the rights and freedoms of human beings, which is more in the domain of laws of the land kind of thing.
I have for many years equated free will with the absence of coercion in the ability to exercise a desire, and equated will with the ability to exercise a desire.
We have gone back and forth on the latter various times. I believe this is because you equate free will with belief (as do I in that particular context when it is offered) and believe will and free will to be synonyms. If those semantics are agreed upon then I would agree with you.
However, will and it's various connotations are deeply embedded in English and to deny them would create a lot of dissonance in speech (as I was pointing out in my original rebuttal).
Are you willing to have this conversation with me? If the answer is yes then I will insist you have will. Is it free will? It is, in the sense that another individual isn't forcing you to participate, which I hope is the case.
If someone is forcing you to post here, give us a sign and we'll notify the proper authorities!
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Rahz]
#28578352 - 12/11/23 09:25 AM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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I am open to having this conversation, and I am interested in having this conversation, and you can parse it any way you like. I do not use the word will or willing to declare the same meaning, because it is not reliably meaningful to me or to the people I dialog with. Old habits die hard, but they do die eventually.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28578514 - 12/11/23 12:31 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said:
Quote:
sudly said: The understanding presented here positions the self as a dynamic, evolving entity intricately woven into the entire being.
I think the answer you'll arrive at depends on whether you view the self as a dichotomy of the self as a separate entity from your being, or as the outcome of the dynamic integration of ongoing interactions within an expanded understanding of nature and nurture. Same goes for free will imo.
When making decisions, our considerations often involve influence from what we perceive the perspectives of those around us to be. At other times we are alone and only responsible to ourselves.
The self is not an independently existing essence but a dynamic and interdependent process. The self as a perception itself, rather than a distinct entity that does the perceiving.
Imo.
You’re starting to sound like Deepak Chopra. Seriously read what you just wrote in the voice of Deepak Chopra lol
What answer did you arrive at?
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: I'm fascinated by the nature of self-discipline, setting intentions, & resisting temptations. It can be argued the 600 lb man who dies at 45 from numerous diseases caused by obesity didn't make decisions, just like the fit 80 year old who ate healthy for decades and exercises is not making choices. It all just "happens" to us. Drunks and heroin users don't choose to quit - it just happens - like the rain
They all still make decisions. The decisions are not free though.
I can decide to drink a glass of water right now, but if I do it’s predetermined. That doesn’t mean I didn’t still decide to do it or not. Decision making is separate from free will. This is one spot where I think Sudly is getting confused. He’s basically redefining free will as decision making.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28578603 - 12/11/23 01:37 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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from wiki: Quote:
Free will is the notional capacity or ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 12 minutes, 26 seconds
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Rahz]
#28578617 - 12/11/23 01:44 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Free will is a slippery word.
For instance Bardy mentioned "The belief one could have done otherwise".
Off the bat, it's being defined as a belief. Can one who holds this belief prove it? No? Then I don't believe in it.
The word isn’t slippery, people are lol.
We don’t have to define it as a belief. We can instead define it as a feeling I guess… “The feeling that you could have done otherwise”.
I’d argue that it’s not a feeling though, and that we’re just confusing the feeling of “wanting something and then acting in accordance“ with this definition. So I like the definition “The belief that…” much better.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28578628 - 12/11/23 01:52 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
Bardy said:
Quote:
Kickle said: This topic (free will) now strikes me as a good illustration of black/white thinking. Either it's free, or it's not. Like a computer. It's either a 0 or a 1. Such binary categorization can be a helpful to process things which are very complex. But it's a method which is not very representative IMO
I believe that it is a method which can be representative of basic statements. As in, if I said to you that all people have three arms, we know that this is false.
I agree that with larger issues such as geopolitics, morals and ethics that black and white thinking likely isn’t the best way of doing things, but in cases such as making the positive assertion that free will exists, we can observe the world and come to the conclusion that this claim is either true or false.
Revisit my original comment. I did not assert or deny free will but instead suggested such stances are an example of black/white thinking.
It's my estimation that some pitfalls of black/white thinking are that nuance is completely lost, dialogue breaks down, and us vs them predominates.
I’d politely recommend you revisit my comment too, as I did not claim that you made any assertion about free will. I was just using that assertion as an example.
I understand you were suggesting it is black and white thinking and I was trying to make the point that we cannot escape from that, because true and false statements exist.
However, just because we might disagree in a black and white way about something does not mean we should start trying to kill each other. To me that is an illogical jump that a lot of people do take haha.
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Kickle
Wanderer



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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28578710 - 12/11/23 02:46 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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I reread it. I flatly disagree that free will is observably false, or true. I don't agree with black/white thinking on this topic.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28578713 - 12/11/23 02:49 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said:
Quote:
Rahz said: Free will is a slippery word.
For instance Bardy mentioned "The belief one could have done otherwise".
Off the bat, it's being defined as a belief. Can one who holds this belief prove it? No? Then I don't believe in it.
The word isn’t slippery, people are lol.
We don’t have to define it as a belief. We can instead define it as a feeling I guess… “The feeling that you could have done otherwise”.
I’d argue that it’s not a feeling though, and that we’re just confusing the feeling of “wanting something and then acting in accordance“ with this definition. So I like the definition “The belief that…” much better.
People have been having philosophical arguments over free will for eons. It's a slippery word. The exception being, if we take it at it's face value legal argument. Then it makes good sense and there's nothing to argue about. But people often aren't happy with that proposition. They want it to be more.
We don't have to define it as a belief... but you did. The nature of belief is generally that it constitutes some immediately unprovable quality, hence the need for belief. I don't suggest that beliefs have no utility because they do and are essential to humans being functional but they have their limits. This is generally found in the ability to test said belief and speaks to risk assessment which is fine as long as it doesn't impede good logic.
That is why I ask, can a belief be proven (or tested)? If not, then we must question whether having a particular belief holds even a modicum of functionality or if it's rather a sign of dysfunctionality, or attempt at avoiding cognitive dissonance.
We could define it as a feeling but doing so doesn't change the problems associated with it being a belief. Beliefs are often predicated on feelings. We could call it an idea, a proposition, a possibility. Whatever the case I would ask (specifically in regard to having been able to have chosen otherwise) is, can this be proven? If not, why should I hold it as a belief? Why should I consider it a useful feeling? Why should I consider the idea or proposition of it to have merit?
It's been said before that even if free will is an illusion the belief in it could provide enthusiasm that would otherwise be absent. That's reasonable, but one might want to consider why this is so. Is there some other illusion that necessitates further illusion to set things straight?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Rahz] 1
#28578891 - 12/11/23 04:38 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Part of our basic condition is having to act with incomplete knowledge. Like in poker you place bets but you don't know what's in the other's hand. Or I can read your words but can never be certain what they mean to you.
Its like we never quite know what the situation is fully, and we never know fully the consequences of our actions. We only see facets of things, things themselves are just facets of the universe, and we tend to make meaning of things by relating them to ourselves.
People seem to have trouble living with uncertainty, so they cling to beliefs as truths. A strong or charismatic leader comes around and says, "I know how it works, follow me!", and we trade the truth of uncertainty for a false security and delusion. Its false because part of us knows we're lying to ourselves. The delusional beliefs add another layer of uncertainty, and create conflict, as people start thinking of their way as the 'right' way. Right and wrong spring up with force created by the fear of the uncertainty of our lives. When this gets more extreme you get fundamentalism, conspiracy theories, dogma, authoritarian rule, war, and genocide.
I think a lot of people don't have the psychological freedom to consider alternatives when they have a belief that is soothing an insecurity. Its not a lack of logicial potential, its more a lack of receptivity to fear or other 'difficult' emotions. This also works in reverse, where a truth or observation is not believed because it activates our fear.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Rahz]
#28578918 - 12/11/23 04:52 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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The idea behind this saying has been insightful for reflecting on some of my own struggles in life.
Quote:
Trauma is what didn't happen, and regret isn't knowing what you'll do next time.
It's just a saying open to change, but I can find meaning in it.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Kickle
Wanderer



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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom] 1
#28578950 - 12/11/23 05:10 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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People seem to have trouble living with uncertainty, so they cling to beliefs as truths.
What would be difficult about uncertainty? Also, what is uncertainty?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28578954 - 12/11/23 05:12 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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A feeling of ambivilance.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,850
Last seen: 33 minutes, 12 seconds
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28578998 - 12/11/23 05:43 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: People seem to have trouble living with uncertainty, so they cling to beliefs as truths.
What would be difficult about uncertainty? Also, what is uncertainty?
the difficulty comes when I believe I need certain things to be ok, like my career, or my wife, or my kids being a certain way, or liking me, or people seeing me as good and wise and trustworthy, or having a certain income, or having certain objects.....
everything is flux, including the things i want to hold on to.
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