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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: Is encouraging myself a waste of time and effort?
The state that you are in now will determine the state that you are next in. Wanting to encourage yourself is a part of the state that you’re currently in. You didn’t will the want to encourage yourself; it came from the state prior to you wanting to encourage yourself.
By the word “state”, I mean the totality of the system that you call “you”. Your physical body including all the neurons in your nervous system and the environment in which that system exists. The environment includes everything everyone has ever said to you, and the way in which you interpreted them. ——
Also, whether something is a waste of time is relative to whoever you ask. I don’t believe encouraging yourself is a waste of time. I’m not even sure what you mean by that question or how it relates to whether or not free will exists? (Free will being the belief that you could have done otherwise).
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy] 1
#28577769 - 12/10/23 08:13 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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The question might be how to effectively encourage your efforts.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
#28577780 - 12/10/23 08:19 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
Bardy said:
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Kickle said: This topic (free will) now strikes me as a good illustration of black/white thinking. Either it's free, or it's not. Like a computer. It's either a 0 or a 1. Such binary categorization can be a helpful to process things which are very complex. But it's a method which is not very representative IMO
This strikes me as a denial that a claim can be false.
I'm all ears 
I believe that it is a method which can be representative of basic statements. As in, if I said to you that all people have three arms, we know that this is false.
I agree that with larger issues such as geopolitics, morals and ethics that black and white thinking likely isn’t the best way of doing things, but in cases such as making the positive assertion that free will exists, we can observe the world and come to the conclusion that this claim is either true or false.
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Bardy


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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: sudly]
#28577801 - 12/10/23 08:28 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: The question might be how to effectively encourage your efforts.
Yeah, that’s a good question.
The belief that self encouragement can output positive results is not something that I think RJ tubs willed themselves into believing. I think it just happened.
If you try to point to where your free will lies you never find it.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28577805 - 12/10/23 08:30 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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I don't think individual motivation is as simple as yes or no.
More to do with a dynamic approach to nature and nurture imo.
I think kickle is just suggesting there's a lot of nuance to the topic.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28577809 - 12/10/23 08:31 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said:
Quote:
sudly said: The question might be how to effectively encourage your efforts.
Yeah, that’s a good question.
The belief that self encouragement can output positive results is not something that I think RJ tubs willed themselves into believing. I think it just happened.
If you try to point to where your free will lies you never find it.
Again, I don't think 'self encouragement' encompasses a lot of understanding on its own.
The idea that positive affirmations aren't enough on their own y'know.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Last seen: 12 minutes, 21 seconds
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: sudly]
#28577829 - 12/10/23 08:47 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: I don't think individual motivation is as simple as yes or no.
More to do with a dynamic approach to nature and nurture imo.
I think kickle is just suggesting there's a lot of nuance to the topic.
There might be nuance in getting people to see they have no free will, but I don’t believe there is any nuance to the answer. If their legitimate nuance I haven’t heard it yet.
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Bardy


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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: sudly]
#28577833 - 12/10/23 08:48 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
Bardy said:
Quote:
sudly said: The question might be how to effectively encourage your efforts.
Yeah, that’s a good question.
The belief that self encouragement can output positive results is not something that I think RJ tubs willed themselves into believing. I think it just happened.
If you try to point to where your free will lies you never find it.
Again, I don't think 'self encouragement' encompasses a lot of understanding on its own.
The idea that positive affirmations aren't enough on their own y'know.
I agree with you, but I’m more just trying to address the topic of free will and how people come about believing what “self encouragement” encompasses.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28577866 - 12/10/23 09:28 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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We're constrained in what we can do, and whatever's within our capability we can technically do.
I came to an understanding of what productivity encompasses through experience, reflection and adaptation.
And for me it involves recognising my perceived boundaries, and addressing them through preparation and an acceptance of broad outcomes.
Even if my intent isn't reached, I can gain insights and experience to recalibrate my next one.
A dot becomes a line when it goes for a walk, and a line becomes a masterpiece when it continues over time.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Bardy


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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: sudly]
#28577875 - 12/10/23 09:39 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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I was addressing if free will is an illusion or not.
Free will being the belief that you could have done otherwise.
Drive, if I understand how you’re using it, might be seen more as a will to survive and to do whatever it takes to survive… which I believe we do have and might well be what people mistake the “feeling of free will” for. Do I have you right or wrong, or am I half way there?
Edited by Bardy (12/10/23 09:40 PM)
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28577899 - 12/10/23 10:15 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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I think this discourse with Anil Seth might clarify some insights into the topic, or not, either way, here's the highlight I think is relevant.
Quote:
Do we have free will?
Scott Snibbe: Yeah, it reminds me of Giordano Bruno when he claimed that all of the stars were actually other suns and then was burnt at the stake for it. He’s reputed to have said, Your God is so much bigger than you think.
So, agency, free will, I know this is a gigantic question, but this sense of interdependence. On the one hand, if the mind and consciousness arise from material processes, do we have any agency at all? Are we like an automaton or do we have free will and agency? What is that? I’m sure the answer is somewhere in between, but could you talk a little bit about that? Another one of these impossible questions.
[00:45:15] Dr. Anil Seth: It’s funny when it comes to free will, whenever I’ve given talks about consciousness in sort of general public audiences, you can explain how the world that’s being experienced isn’t the world as it is. And, okay, that’s fine. And then you can explain that the self isn’t really an innate essence of you or me. It’s also a perception. It’s like, eh, okay, fine.
But then when you try to make the same claim for free will, there’s much more resistance. This is just my own very informal survey that free will seems to be that aspect of self that people are least willing to accept that there might be a scientific explanation for. Which in turn means that there’s a real value that at least people in the West have about what is quite a dualistic understanding of consciousness.
This idea that we have free will in the sense of consciousness being able to load the dice or pull some levers in the physical universe to change an otherwise determined inexorable flow of events. This is a kind of free will that maximizes the causal potency of consciousness but also makes the least sense. Because it imbues this free will with a lot of stuff. It’s not just that consciousness can change things in the physical world, but it does so in a very strategically savvy way and knows exactly what to do in order so that you as an organism do what you want to do; that you do the things that are aligned with your beliefs, values, goals, desires, and so on.
I don’t think that’s a sort of free will that we have or that we need, or that we want. I do think we do have the kind of free will that we ought to have and actually makes subjective sense for us too. What do I mean by that? Well, what does it mean to have an experience of free will? How would one describe that experience? How would you describe it? What is an experience of free will like to you?
If we want to look at the how and why, I think it means thinking about the drive.
To develop our strategy for how, Scott Snibbe: Well, it feels like you could do one thing or another and you deliberately choose one rather than the other. There’s this great quote by Shantideva, a great Buddhist thinker, and he said if things came into being through choice, then no one would suffer. So, that’s where I really start to doubt it.Because if I really had free will, then I would never get in a fight with my wife and I would never eat an extra piece of cake or something like that. So, I do scratch my head a little bit about whether I really have free will or not because to me it seems a little bit like an illusion, that it’s kind of like me getting what I want is free will, but I’m not sure that that’s really free will.
[00:48:06] Dr. Anil Seth: Right, and I think we sometimes make the confusion between experiences of free will and the experience of exercising what is unfortunately called willpower. When you make cognitive effort, when you are faced with a hard decision and that feels like you are exerting your free will, compared to just pouring yourself a glass of water when you’re thirsty, which is equally a voluntary action.
But it doesn’t feel difficult. It doesn’t have that sense of cognitive effort behind it. I think that’s misleading because there’s no reason that free willed decisions need to be the difficult ones, the challenging ones that we face. But you’re absolutely right that the experience of free will, central to it is this experience of a counterfactual possibility that I did A, but I could have done B.
I made a cup of tea, but I could have made a cup of coffee. And I think there’s a couple of other things that also characterize free will, and you hinted at them. One is that I’m doing what I want to do. It feels like I’m doing something that is aligned with my beliefs and desires, which are beliefs and desires that I didn’t choose to have.
They’re there in my brain, in my mind. I didn’t choose those, but that action is aligned with them. And finally, it seems to come from within that the action I made, whether it’s picking up a glass or taking a job or just raising my hand, doesn’t have an alternative cause in the world.
It’s not that somebody was lifting my hand or sticking wires into my brain. The causes came from within. So, that’s what an experience feels like. What I’ve been doing in the book and in the work is actually trying to take the same perspective to free will as I would take to other kinds of conscious experiences.
Instead of naively thinking, Okay, the experience of free will is that I cause something to happen so that must be what’s going on, otherwise free will doesn’t exist. To say that, Okay, no, let’s look at it in a bit more detail, what experiences of free will are actually like, just as the same experience of self doesn’t mean there is an actual self, the experience of free will doesn’t mean there actually is free will, there is a very casually potent variety. It actually means there’s an experience of this sort of counterfactual possibility coming from within, aligned with beliefs and desires. And that makes a lot of sense. It’s a kind of perception, again, of a particular kind of action.
Why do I experience that I could have done it differently if in fact I couldn’t? Well, it matters for the next time. The brain pays attention to voluntary actions because the brain is always changing. Maybe it turns out that I’ve suddenly become allergic to tea and I have this cup of tea and I feel terrible.
So now the brain has learned that, okay, next time coffee will be made rather than tea or water or something else, because the alternative possibilities have been highlighted in my experience the first time I made tea. The trick is always to recognize that how things seem is not how they are, which again, is totally inherited from or compatible with Buddhist philosophy, but it’s also not totally divorced from how things are.
Is just finding that relationship and for free will, I think it’s a relationship that extends over time. I feel like I could have done differently because next time I might do differently.
[00:52:55] Scott Snibbe: Yeah, I think you’re right about that. It’s another one of these problems of language, because in Buddhism it’s kind of a combination of doing things and imagination. That part of what you’re saying is that we go back and imagine we could have done something else, but that’s very different than having actually had the power to do something else in that moment.
But then imagining it does change your brain and the potential for doing something else in the future. And in Buddhism they call this volition or even karma—I hate to use that word karma because it’s way too loaded. But in Buddhism it’s just action that people do things and it’s conditioned on everything that happened before.
[00:53:33] Dr. Anil Seth: We can’t escape that, right? Just knowing that also doesn’t escape it. Last week I was suffering from this very, very intensely because I decided not to travel to this conference because I’ve had Covid for months and there’s a lot of Covid around.
And I thought, Okay, I’m not gonna go to this meeting because I think it’s just gonna be too much of a drain and also too much of a chance of catching another infection of Covid. And then I came to regret that decision, I thought, Oh, I really should have gone, I really should have gone because it would’ve been great and so on.
I was telling myself I could have gone, I could have just booked a last minute flight. I could have booked a train. Why didn’t I do that? Totally neglecting everything that we’ve been talking about now, which is that at that time, I could only have done what I did. And there were reasons for that, and the reasons made sense at the time.
But even more fundamentally that, I had no choice. I just did what I did at that time. What is the point of all this post regrets that we all suffer from? I think just as knowing that colors don’t objectively exist in the world, doesn’t make you stop seeing color, knowing that free will of this very spooky sort doesn’t exist, and we just do what we do and we experience it in a variety of ways, that doesn’t stop us from experiencing free will or the occasional regret that we all have when things don’t turn out as we projected them. But it’s still useful. So regret is the price you pay mentally for making a different decision the next time.
https://www.skepticspath.org/podcast/free-will-consciousness-reality-with-dr-anil-seth/
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: sudly]
#28577938 - 12/10/23 11:26 PM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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I’ve heard Anil speak on free will a couple of times and I think what he says makes sense.
You just dodged my question. It’s good to move forward with the conversation, but it’s not good to just flat out not answer people, then quote someone else’s words and act like that gives some kind of insight to what you were thinking. I’ve run into this problem with you once before…
Anyway…
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28577955 - 12/11/23 12:05 AM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said: I was addressing if free will is an illusion or not.
Free will being the belief that you could have done otherwise.
Drive, if I understand how you’re using it, might be seen more as a will to survive and to do whatever it takes to survive… which I believe we do have and might well be what people mistake the “feeling of free will” for. Do I have you right or wrong, or am I half way there?
This is my perspective on free will.
Quote:
In a paradigm where the self is conceived not as a separate entity but as a dynamic and evolving process shaped by both genetic predispositions (nature) and environmental factors (nurture). The concept of free will becomes intricately connected to this dynamic self, departing from the traditional view of free will as a standalone capacity. The emphasis is on the continuous interplay between internal cognitive processes and external influences, reflecting a nuanced understanding of decision-making.
Free will, within this context, is portrayed not as an isolated capability but as a complex outcome derived from ongoing interactions. Decision-making is characterised as a collaborative and socially embedded process, highlighting the intertwining of individual agency with collective influences. The acknowledgment of social determinants in decision-making underscores the interdependence of the self on others, emphasising that our choices are significantly shaped by how we perceive ourselves and those around us.
In summary, the understanding presented here positions the self as a dynamic, evolving entity intricately woven into the entire being, influenced by both nature and nurture. Concurrently, free will is seen as a collaborative and socially embedded product, emerging from the intricate interplay between internal cognitive processes and external influences. This paradigm marks a departure from static notions, offering a more comprehensive perspective on the nature of the self and the complexities involved in decision-making.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Bardy


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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: sudly]
#28578015 - 12/11/23 03:21 AM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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This isn’t highschool. You don’t have a target word count to meet. ——
So from that I have:
- The self is a united entity; described by you as “not separate”.
Q. What is the self not separate from?
- This “new” concept of free will involves one that is connected to the self.
Q. What makes you think the “old” free will was not associated with the self? And how did the old free will “stand alone” from the self? I think you’ll find that free will has always gone hand in hand with the concept of self, I don’t see how it couldn’t…
- Free will is an outcome derived from interactions. (Doesn’t sound like free will to me, so what you’re saying here I think just further confuses things).
- Decision making is a social, collaborative process intertwined with individual agency. (It can also be as simple as deciding to move your eyes or hold your breath).
The last paragraph is just word salad that doesn’t actually explain what you think free will is. It basically boils down to “free will is a product of everything” and you equating decision making with free will, which is complete nonsense. Some new “paradigm” you have there.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
#28578033 - 12/11/23 04:09 AM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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The understanding presented here positions the self as a dynamic, evolving entity intricately woven into the entire being.
I think the answer you'll arrive at depends on whether you view the self as a dichotomy of the self as a separate entity from your being, or as the outcome of the dynamic integration of ongoing interactions within an expanded understanding of nature and nurture. Same goes for free will imo.
When making decisions, our considerations often involve influence from what we perceive the perspectives of those around us to be. At other times we are alone and only responsible to ourselves.
The self is not an independently existing essence but a dynamic and interdependent process. The self as a perception itself, rather than a distinct entity that does the perceiving.
Imo.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Rahz]
#28578050 - 12/11/23 04:41 AM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: If it's not a real thing, how do servile underlings perform it?
the alternative is you don't get to pick which: death, torture, sexual abuse, starvation, work in the mines, fight in the gladiator forum, face the lions, and I forget the rest that conquered slaves are subjected to.
this is like electroshock conditioning, not will.
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Bardy


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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: sudly]
#28578059 - 12/11/23 04:46 AM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: The understanding presented here positions the self as a dynamic, evolving entity intricately woven into the entire being.
I think the answer you'll arrive at depends on whether you view the self as a dichotomy of the self as a separate entity from your being, or as the outcome of the dynamic integration of ongoing interactions within an expanded understanding of nature and nurture. Same goes for free will imo.
When making decisions, our considerations often involve influence from what we perceive the perspectives of those around us to be. At other times we are alone and only responsible to ourselves.
The self is not an independently existing essence but a dynamic and interdependent process. The self as a perception itself, rather than a distinct entity that does the perceiving.
Imo.
You’re starting to sound like Deepak Chopra. Seriously read what you just wrote in the voice of Deepak Chopra lol
Edited by Bardy (12/11/23 05:19 AM)
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RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,010
Loc: USA
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: sudly]
#28578116 - 12/11/23 05:59 AM (1 month, 17 days ago) |
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BTW, I am not big into affirmations.
Quote:
sudly said:
The question might be how to effectively encourage your efforts.
I'm fascinated by the nature of self-discipline, setting intentions, & resisting temptations. It can be argued the 600 lb man who dies at 45 from numerous diseases caused by obesity didn't make decisions, just like the fit 80 year old who ate healthy for decades and exercises is not making choices. It all just "happens" to us. Drunks and heroin users don't choose to quit - it just happens - like the rain.
I notice major changes in my life are associated with insight. Learning about myself seems to be a big catalyst for change. But again, I did not choose to investigate the source and nature of my suffering. It just happened. I guess.
BTW Freedom - I often can predict the nature of the thoughts that will arise in various situations. The mind is incredibly repetitive, and much of the time quite predictable. Do I know where thoughts come from? No. I don't know where my preference for certain food comes from. Or why water is wet.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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being present in the here and now, you can guard against the enemy, be it excess of food, or scarcity of water. vigilance, then, is how we manifest our attitude for or against what we associate with the current conditions. within the vigilant context, how we react is reflexive, related to previous associations (learning). As we navigate from one vigilant context to another a different set of reflexes are accessed.
I would describe breathing meditation as a vigilant context.
Also there are several hunter gatherer vigilant contexts that improve results.
Driving is a vigilant context.
etc.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
Rahz said: If it's not a real thing, how do servile underlings perform it?
the alternative is you don't get to pick which: death, torture, sexual abuse, starvation, work in the mines, fight in the gladiator forum, face the lions, and I forget the rest that conquered slaves are subjected to.
this is like electroshock conditioning, not will.
The comment I replied to no longer exists
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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