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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28577167 - 12/10/23 02:27 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

The idea of anticipation of qualitative benefit driving motivation makes more sense to me, if you think you'll find joy or benefit in doing something, it's more likely you will :shrug:


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineSprewellSleeve
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Registered: 03/15/09
Posts: 6,315
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: TheStallionMang]
    #28577244 - 12/10/23 03:21 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

TheStallionMang said:
I think this all sounds like a fancy way of saying "I have no say over myself, my decisions, my life, or anything else" which leads to a diminished sense of accomplishment for anything good they do and no sense of accountability for things they shouldn't have done.

I know someone who will do and say some really rude and destructive things, then say things like "I literally had no other choice" but someone else could easily see they had a lot of better options

I prefer to give myself credit for both "good" and "bad" things I do and don't blame the neurons in my brain for being retarded
We are not dust in the wind...



Maybe the "bad" is the part where you're not actually willing it. Those are caused by who knows what, toxic food and water for example. I don't know anyone with optimal health, but it doesn't mean they're 100% unhealthy. I can't imagine a person who's completely healthy doing anything "bad" such as hurting someone. I don't know.

Free will doesn't make sense to me.


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OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
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Registered: 05/26/05
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: TheStallionMang] * 1
    #28577249 - 12/10/23 03:25 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

TheStallionMang said:
I think this all sounds like a fancy way of saying "I have no say over myself, my decisions, my life, or anything else" which leads to a diminished sense of accomplishment for anything good they do and no sense of accountability for things they shouldn't have done.

I know someone who will do and say some really rude and destructive things, then say things like "I literally had no other choice" but someone else could easily see they had a lot of better options

I prefer to give myself credit for both "good" and "bad" things I do and don't blame the neurons in my brain for being retarded
We are not dust in the wind...




its not so much that care about life goes away, its more a recognition that we don't create that care

theoretically we can debate it, but the experiential part of it has to be recognized.

I would put it like: the appearance of choice appears without choosing it.  Its like how thought appears without anything appearing to create the thought. And choice is thought.

what happens when you try to predict your next thought?


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InvisibleTheStallionMang
Do U know who yur fuckin with?
Male

Registered: 10/18/17
Posts: 4,523
Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: SprewellSleeve]
    #28577250 - 12/10/23 03:29 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

If no one has free will, everything that happens would be predetermined and efforts to change anything for the better would be a complete waste of time and I refuse to believe that we are mere puppets with no say or power over ourselves

Thoughts come and go and many decisions are made about whether we act on those thoughts or not. Seems like free will to me.


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OfflineSprewellSleeve
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: TheStallionMang]
    #28577269 - 12/10/23 03:43 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

TheStallionMang said:
If no one has free will, everything that happens would be predetermined and efforts to change anything for the better would be a complete waste of time and I refuse to believe that we are mere puppets with no say or power over ourselves

Thoughts come and go and many decisions are made about whether we act on those thoughts or not. Seems like free will to me.



Maybe we were created to have our own personality, but outside factors can still effect the natural (free?) part of us at times.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: TheStallionMang]
    #28577306 - 12/10/23 04:03 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

TheStallionMang said:
If no one has free will, everything that happens would be predetermined ...



this is the common misconception.
one does not imply the other.
if predetermination existed, it would require a registry or ledger of what is determined.
that does not exist, everything is interacting in the moment for the first time never having been predetermined.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:đź§   _ :finger:


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OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: TheStallionMang]
    #28577307 - 12/10/23 04:04 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

TheStallionMang said:
If no one has free will, everything that happens would be predetermined and efforts to change anything for the better would be a complete waste of time and I refuse to believe that we are mere puppets with no say or power over ourselves

Thoughts come and go and many decisions are made about whether we act on those thoughts or not. Seems like free will to me.




where does your free will come from?


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InvisibleAsante
Mage
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Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: SprewellSleeve] * 1
    #28577390 - 12/10/23 04:49 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

SprewellSleeve said:
100% unhealthy..




100% unhealthy = the moment of death.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Asante]
    #28577447 - 12/10/23 05:19 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

If it's not a real thing, how do servile underlings perform it?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Rahz]
    #28577471 - 12/10/23 05:34 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
If it's not a real thing, how do servile underlings perform it?





thats the great thing. Our consciousness has a layering of superficial consciousness (you and me) that is pretty much individual, and a fundamental consciousness that permeates all things, the Oneness, mostly resigned to our subconsious.

When we do anything, our superficial ego watches the fundamental universal consiousness act through us, and we claim it as our action.

The God Level of you does all things so, sayonara sin.
It was the Big Guy all along, through us, not us.





we are the Passenger - it's a Ride.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Asante]
    #28577483 - 12/10/23 05:42 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineSprewellSleeve
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Asante]
    #28577492 - 12/10/23 05:48 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Quote:

SprewellSleeve said:
100% unhealthy..




100% unhealthy = the moment of death.



LOL


--------------------


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OfflineBardy
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Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: TheStallionMang]
    #28577593 - 12/10/23 06:48 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

TheStallionMang said:
I think this all sounds like a fancy way of saying "I have no say over myself, my decisions, my life, or anything else" which leads to a diminished sense of accomplishment for anything good they do and no sense of accountability for things they shouldn't have done.

I know someone who will do and say some really rude and destructive things, then say things like "I literally had no other choice" but someone else could easily see they had a lot of better options

I prefer to give myself credit for both "good" and "bad" things I do and don't blame the neurons in my brain for being retarded
We are not dust in the wind...




The fact that we couldn’t have done otherwise is not an excuse to cease learning or growing. In fact that person will likely, of no free will of their own, be forced to change into a more likeable human being by way of other people’s reactions to their crudeness. If they genuinely don’t care about how other people view them then there was no hope for them regardless of whether they believe in free will or not.


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OfflineKickleM
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Registered: 12/16/06
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: SprewellSleeve] * 1
    #28577604 - 12/10/23 06:52 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

This topic (free will) now strikes me as a good illustration of black/white thinking. Either it's free, or it's not. Like a computer. It's either a 0 or a 1. Such binary categorization can be helpful to process things which are very complex. But it's a method which is not very representative IMO


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineBardy
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: TheStallionMang]
    #28577611 - 12/10/23 06:55 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

TheStallionMang said:
If no one has free will, everything that happens would be predetermined and efforts to change anything for the better would be a complete waste of time and I refuse to believe that we are mere puppets with no say or power over ourselves

Thoughts come and go and many decisions are made about whether we act on those thoughts or not. Seems like free will to me.




Change is a necessary fact of the universe. We cannot exist without change. No free will does not equal non changing things. We change based on cause and effect. It is forced upon us. Our next state is based on the state of things now.

How much effort anyone puts into becoming a better person is entirely not of any one persons doing, including the person doing the changing. It is simply happening.


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OfflineBardy
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
    #28577614 - 12/10/23 06:55 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
This topic (free will) now strikes me as a good illustration of black/white thinking. Either it's free, or it's not. Like a computer. It's either a 0 or a 1. Such binary categorization can be a helpful to process things which are very complex. But it's a method which is not very representative IMO




This strikes me as a denial that a claim can be false.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
    #28577616 - 12/10/23 06:56 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Is encouraging myself a waste of time and effort?


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OfflineKickleM
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Registered: 12/16/06
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Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Bardy]
    #28577619 - 12/10/23 06:57 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Bardy said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
This topic (free will) now strikes me as a good illustration of black/white thinking. Either it's free, or it's not. Like a computer. It's either a 0 or a 1. Such binary categorization can be a helpful to process things which are very complex. But it's a method which is not very representative IMO




This strikes me as a denial that a claim can be false.




I'm all ears :smile:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: Kickle]
    #28577661 - 12/10/23 07:22 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
This topic (free will) now strikes me as a good illustration of black/white thinking. Either it's free, or it's not. Like a computer. It's either a 0 or a 1. Such binary categorization can be helpful to process things which are very complex. But it's a method which is not very representative IMO




'I think I'd benefit from starting a task I've prepared for and provided alternatives outcomes to, therefore I think I more likely will'.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Free will is an illusion [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28577668 - 12/10/23 07:24 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Is encouraging myself a waste of time and effort?




In one sense, yes, because without addressing the why and how of what will drive your motivation to do, you more likely won't.

So encourage your efforts but address the challenges of your work.

To overcome significant obstacles or barriers you can view those challenges as an integral part of your learning process. Overcoming identified hurdles can involve steps like a preparation of surfaces or the acquisition of materials or time. Overcoming the hurdle of concerns can be seen as a significant step in mastering the arts of what you set yourself to do.

Each hurdle is unique to the individual and their task, but finding it is crucial imo.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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