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shed light
Stranger
Registered: 08/06/23
Posts: 116
Last seen: 1 month, 28 days
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Quote:
Patchouli_Savage said: Ah I don't assume men who are dressed up are "Nancy Boys" (which I asse means feminine?) But I do assume they are white collar.
I would guess that men who like to dress well are drawn to women who habitually dress well also, and it seems like that might have an element of status as well?
Yeah, feminine. Not quite as derogatory as pansy, much less so than wimp or pussy. But on the pansy side of neutral in the macho->pussy spectrum . At least in my personal lexicon.
Yeah, I think you're right. People who care about that for themselves also care about that in a partner.
And yeah, I see it that way too with the status, there's definitely a correlation there. But it isn't a hard and fast linear thing. I think that's highly complex relationship. The truly wealthy guys I know are wealthy enough to absolutely not give a fuck and end up wearing jeans, practical footwear, and average shirts. So I don't think the status thing applies after a certain point.
But
Its what I call the upper-middle class of say 100k-500k earners, both men and women, mostly educated professionals, who are concerned with what others think and dress up not as an expression of self, but as an obligate part of their lives/for their social circles and coworkers. Maybe some do it as a genuine expression of self or to show off status, but I think its basically just the standard they feel they have to meet. Much of my social interaction occurs within this group and I can say that many of the people here are very concerned with what others think, perceived status and professionalism, but not what they actually want. In fact, trying to talk my best friend (a specialized Dr.) into a race car project resulted in him replying "yeah that sounds awesome, but what would people think if they saw me doing that? What if a patient or a coworker saw me?" My heart broke a little bit. While my much wealthier friend is building cars and hitting the track every weekend, walking around in a sweat-stained Gander Mountain $30 clearance shirt. I feel that this demographic is image/status-obsessed in everything they do (not through their own desire, but to fit in) and dress is no exception. And frankly its tragic. So much personal freedom lost at the altar of maintaining appearances.
Its the "classes" (I use that term loosely) above and below that bracket that do as they choose.
The wealthy are wealthy enough to dress up if they want to and not care about it if they don't want to. Some of my friends fall into this category and experience true freedom of expression.
And those who aren't in those social circles can choose to dress up for personal reasons if they so desire but don't face social consequences of not dressing up or looking frumpy. Many of my friends fall into this camp and experience freedom of personal expression.
Ultra tangent for sure, sorry everybody. But I feel uniquely qualified to comment on this specific topic of status/dress as I find myself in that social/class/whatever group as an outsider with a highschool education and a lot more freedom of expression than my friends in this group.
Writing that made me feel really grateful for my life actually. I can go and crazy dance to local jam bands. I can drive what I want and wear what I want. I have so much freedom to live the life I want to live, unencumbered by concern about status or the opinions of others. Freedom is worth infinitely more than some kind of perceived status.
-------------------- Love is everything Life is good The opposite of negativity is gratitude Be KIND
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CreonAntigone
Stranger

Registered: 05/30/21
Posts: 2,875
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Re: Women and Dressing Up [Re: shed light]
#28456304 - 09/02/23 06:01 PM (4 months, 24 days ago) |
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Not to digress the topic, but as shed light mentioned the way professionals of both sexes dress up to show status, I wanted to ask a question regarding suits. Can people really tell a suit costs $5000 dollars? I have heard someone say, 'compared to a well-tailored italian suit, everything looks bad'. Is that true?
I could see a tailored suit being far better than something off the rack, and that being a big distinguishment between the bottom and top earners in dress. But beyond tailoring, what benefits would come if I choose the absurdly expensuive tailor that will charge me $7000, versus lets say the nicest possible in the price range of a low-to-middle earner, a $420 tailored suit. $420 might be outside the range of a large number of americans too but at least should be doable for most of the middle class.
Let's say -
Tier 1, 7000+ custom suit - tier 2, $420 custom suit - tier 3, sub $100 and off the rack.
Will people look that much sharper with a tier 1 as opposed to a tier 3 suit? Will people get jobs they wouldn't otherwise? What about the suit exactly is so obviously worth the money? I assume that it will be obvious to everyone or at least to other rich people that a suit is worth $7000 - but what details in it make it so obvious? It is a status symbol like a fancy car, I suppose. But a suit is so simple, what exactly can money do to mike it that much better? What does adding an extra $6,600 do to improve the already-expensive $400 custom suits?
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ashfiken
TotalCrazyasshole


Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 3,072
Loc: SCranton
Last seen: 6 hours, 39 minutes
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I think when you are operating at that level, perception is everything. So yes that tier 1 may be what you need to land that hedge fund position.... For the normals out there perception/dress/impression is a much different and more truly.social ball game Vs the fake smile and suit and tie impressions of those sitting in maybe the top 20%
-------------------- hmm... "I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked." "life isn't worth living without the threat of death" "I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be" "nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters" My Trade List
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CreonAntigone
Stranger

Registered: 05/30/21
Posts: 2,875
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Re: Women and Dressing Up [Re: ashfiken]
#28456355 - 09/02/23 07:04 PM (4 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
ashfiken said: I think when you are operating at that level, perception is everything. So yes that tier 1 may be what you need to land that hedge fund position.... For the normals out there perception/dress/impression is a much different and more truly.social ball game Vs the fake smile and suit and tie impressions of those sitting in maybe the top 20%
You're right, it's kind of like a pass into a special social club showing particularly immense wealth... and so isn't even useful for those that are outside that orbit.
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ashfiken
TotalCrazyasshole


Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 3,072
Loc: SCranton
Last seen: 6 hours, 39 minutes
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Absolutely agreed. It almost seems alien to a pobre like myself
-------------------- hmm... "I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked." "life isn't worth living without the threat of death" "I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be" "nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters" My Trade List
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Patchouli_Savage


Registered: 12/26/13
Posts: 712
Loc: Somewhere between here an...
Last seen: 7 hours, 25 minutes
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Re: Women and Dressing Up [Re: shed light]
#28456394 - 09/02/23 07:37 PM (4 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
shed light said:
Quote:
Patchouli_Savage said: Ah I don't assume men who are dressed up are "Nancy Boys" (which I asse means feminine?) But I do assume they are white collar.
I would guess that men who like to dress well are drawn to women who habitually dress well also, and it seems like that might have an element of status as well?
Yeah, feminine. Not quite as derogatory as pansy, much less so than wimp or pussy. But on the pansy side of neutral in the macho->pussy spectrum . At least in my personal lexicon.
Yeah, I think you're right. People who care about that for themselves also care about that in a partner.
And yeah, I see it that way too with the status, there's definitely a correlation there. But it isn't a hard and fast linear thing. I think that's highly complex relationship. The truly wealthy guys I know are wealthy enough to absolutely not give a fuck and end up wearing jeans, practical footwear, and average shirts. So I don't think the status thing applies after a certain point.
But
Its what I call the upper-middle class of say 100k-500k earners, both men and women, mostly educated professionals, who are concerned with what others think and dress up not as an expression of self, but as an obligate part of their lives/for their social circles and coworkers. Maybe some do it as a genuine expression of self or to show off status, but I think its basically just the standard they feel they have to meet. Much of my social interaction occurs within this group and I can say that many of the people here are very concerned with what others think, perceived status and professionalism, but not what they actually want. In fact, trying to talk my best friend (a specialized Dr.) into a race car project resulted in him replying "yeah that sounds awesome, but what would people think if they saw me doing that? What if a patient or a coworker saw me?" My heart broke a little bit. While my much wealthier friend is building cars and hitting the track every weekend, walking around in a sweat-stained Gander Mountain $30 clearance shirt. I feel that this demographic is image/status-obsessed in everything they do (not through their own desire, but to fit in) and dress is no exception. And frankly its tragic. So much personal freedom lost at the altar of maintaining appearances.
Its the "classes" (I use that term loosely) above and below that bracket that do as they choose.
The wealthy are wealthy enough to dress up if they want to and not care about it if they don't want to. Some of my friends fall into this category and experience true freedom of expression.
And those who aren't in those social circles can choose to dress up for personal reasons if they so desire but don't face social consequences of not dressing up or looking frumpy. Many of my friends fall into this camp and experience freedom of personal expression.
Ultra tangent for sure, sorry everybody. But I feel uniquely qualified to comment on this specific topic of status/dress as I find myself in that social/class/whatever group as an outsider with a highschool education and a lot more freedom of expression than my friends in this group.
Writing that made me feel really grateful for my life actually. I can go and crazy dance to local jam bands. I can drive what I want and wear what I want. I have so much freedom to live the life I want to live, unencumbered by concern about status or the opinions of others. Freedom is worth infinitely more than some kind of perceived status.
That all makes sense.
I feel like the place I live is rural enough that even wealthier people don't need to dress for status because there's still a need for utilitarianism. They soend their money on nice bikes and extra cabins.
-------------------- "You are a ghost driving a meat coated skeleton made from stardust. What do you have to be scared of?"
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shed light
Stranger
Registered: 08/06/23
Posts: 116
Last seen: 1 month, 28 days
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Quote:
CreonAntigone said: Not to digress the topic, but as shed light mentioned the way professionals of both sexes dress up to show status, I wanted to ask a question regarding suits. Can people really tell a suit costs $5000 dollars? I have heard someone say, 'compared to a well-tailored italian suit, everything looks bad'. Is that true?
I could see a tailored suit being far better than something off the rack, and that being a big distinguishment between the bottom and top earners in dress. But beyond tailoring, what benefits would come if I choose the absurdly expensuive tailor that will charge me $7000, versus lets say the nicest possible in the price range of a low-to-middle earner, a $420 tailored suit. $420 might be outside the range of a large number of americans too but at least should be doable for most of the middle class.
Let's say -
Tier 1, 7000+ custom suit - tier 2, $420 custom suit - tier 3, sub $100 and off the rack.
Will people look that much sharper with a tier 1 as opposed to a tier 3 suit? Will people get jobs they wouldn't otherwise? What about the suit exactly is so obviously worth the money? I assume that it will be obvious to everyone or at least to other rich people that a suit is worth $7000 - but what details in it make it so obvious? It is a status symbol like a fancy car, I suppose. But a suit is so simple, what exactly can money do to mike it that much better? What does adding an extra $6,600 do to improve the already-expensive $400 custom suits?
I think suits, like anything else, is a game of diminishing returns. The $420 custom-tailored suit is easily 100% better than the ill-fitting $100 off-the-rack option and even a blue collar, highschool educated schmuck like me can see it. The $700 option may be only 25% better than the $420, but still definitely noticeable in terms of material quality, in my opinion. I think at the $1200 mark (totally arbitrary number) we hit diminishing returns hard. It becomes more about brand name, material, exotic cuts and trims to meet current trends, etc. But that's to my uninitiated eye. I'm sure someone in the know could tell between a $1200 and a $3000 suit.
For what its worth, I wear a maybe $300 suit made of a polyester blend. I got $450 shoes new in box on ebay for $100 shipped. I splurged on a $120 belt and a nice tie to offset it and 'dress up' the inexpensive suit. I figure for ~$550 I've got a setup that looks better than most for any of the weddings I attend. I'd probably look like a complete tool in a metropolitan setting where everyone has truly high end, handmade stuff, but in the mostly rural midwest I think the shoes, belt, and tie dress up the suit nicely and I look great.
I believe around $700 is the mark that suit aficionados call the sweet spot, where you get a nicely made suit with the little touches that make it 'high end' without getting into designer name pissing contests and ultra fine materials etc. Even that is probably much more than 99% of people will ever need.
But yeah, the $100 off-the-rack vs even an ultra cheap $250 tailored job is night and day. Think about all the guys you see in court wearing some baggy, poorly-fitting suit because their attorney told them they needed to wear one. Then think about the average groomsman wearing a cheap polyester, but somewhat decently sized/trimmed suit at the last wedding you attended. That groomsman looks like a million bucks in comparison just by wearing a cheap rental suit that fits halfway decent.
But I wear neon yellow hi-vis t shirts covered in stains and work boots with the steel toe poking through the leather from excessive wear so I'm the last guy to heed for tidbits of fashion wisdom.
-------------------- Love is everything Life is good The opposite of negativity is gratitude Be KIND
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,685
Loc: Raccoon City
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Quote:
CreonAntigone said: Not to digress the topic, but as shed light mentioned the way professionals of both sexes dress up to show status, I wanted to ask a question regarding suits. Can people really tell a suit costs $5000 dollars? I have heard someone say, 'compared to a well-tailored italian suit, everything looks bad'. Is that true?
Technically, the off-the-shelf selection would be ill-fitted, famous brands have their own styles, and desirable colors of the same fabrics from the same factories sell for premium prices.
Identical results can be achieved by small, no-name tailors, given enough time and resources in the Third World.
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,339
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I was going to say the exact same thing. What I notice between the two is the more expensive suit is tailored to fit you. You can tailor anything to fit your body. Buy the cheap suit and get it altered.
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“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,685
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: Women and Dressing Up [Re: loladoreen]
#28459588 - 09/05/23 02:25 PM (4 months, 21 days ago) |
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If you are clever enough to do the alterations yourself, find fabric remnants in the premium colors, and sew them together in the same shapes used by famous brands.
https://nypost.com/2016/11/14/dead-rodent-sewn-into-womans-new-zara-dress-lawsuit/
But, the Cruella Devilles and Patrick Batemans are going to pretend to find fault, no matter how disciplined the workmanship. That's part of putting on airs.
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,339
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The hand..... I thought of the dark crystal...
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“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,685
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: Women and Dressing Up [Re: loladoreen]
#28461005 - 09/06/23 08:28 PM (4 months, 19 days ago) |
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LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs




Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 69,325
Loc: The Inexpressible...
Last seen: 14 minutes, 38 seconds
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Had a nice interaction with Raven-temptresa tonite.
I go into the breakroom, and its her and my lead (her close friend). They are silent but eventually say something. My lead leaves and its just me and her in the break room. I only had about 10mins but it was so worth it. She was wearing baggy urban jean pants and a semi-tight black t shirt. Not super sexy but still pleasant 'n cool. She slides back into the padded chair-bench, with her left leg bent at the knee and her other leg to the floor. I could see her face, looking at her phone. That posture was so sexy. Love it.
It reminded me that Im in love with her and any little bit of 1-on-1 attention feels like Heaven to me. Definitely a special feeling to experience.
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Aboom
Stranger
Registered: 11/19/23
Posts: 15
Loc: North Central Arkansas
Last seen: 1 month, 6 days
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So did you flirt with her or continue admiring, keeping it to yourself?
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,339
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Re: Women and Dressing Up [Re: shed light]
#28568589 - 12/04/23 05:27 PM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
shed light said:
Quote:
Patchouli_Savage said: Ah I don't assume men who are dressed up are "Nancy Boys" (which I asse means feminine?) But I do assume they are white collar.
I would guess that men who like to dress well are drawn to women who habitually dress well also, and it seems like that might have an element of status as well?
Yeah, feminine. Not quite as derogatory as pansy, much less so than wimp or pussy. But on the pansy side of neutral in the macho->pussy spectrum . At least in my personal lexicon.
Yeah, I think you're right. People who care about that for themselves also care about that in a partner.
And yeah, I see it that way too with the status, there's definitely a correlation there. But it isn't a hard and fast linear thing. I think that's highly complex relationship. The truly wealthy guys I know are wealthy enough to absolutely not give a fuck and end up wearing jeans, practical footwear, and average shirts. So I don't think the status thing applies after a certain point.
But
Its what I call the upper-middle class of say 100k-500k earners, both men and women, mostly educated professionals, who are concerned with what others think and dress up not as an expression of self, but as an obligate part of their lives/for their social circles and coworkers. Maybe some do it as a genuine expression of self or to show off status, but I think its basically just the standard they feel they have to meet. Much of my social interaction occurs within this group and I can say that many of the people here are very concerned with what others think, perceived status and professionalism, but not what they actually want. In fact, trying to talk my best friend (a specialized Dr.) into a race car project resulted in him replying "yeah that sounds awesome, but what would people think if they saw me doing that? What if a patient or a coworker saw me?" My heart broke a little bit. While my much wealthier friend is building cars and hitting the track every weekend, walking around in a sweat-stained Gander Mountain $30 clearance shirt. I feel that this demographic is image/status-obsessed in everything they do (not through their own desire, but to fit in) and dress is no exception. And frankly its tragic. So much personal freedom lost at the altar of maintaining appearances.
Its the "classes" (I use that term loosely) above and below that bracket that do as they choose.
The wealthy are wealthy enough to dress up if they want to and not care about it if they don't want to. Some of my friends fall into this category and experience true freedom of expression.
And those who aren't in those social circles can choose to dress up for personal reasons if they so desire but don't face social consequences of not dressing up or looking frumpy. Many of my friends fall into this camp and experience freedom of personal expression.
Ultra tangent for sure, sorry everybody. But I feel uniquely qualified to comment on this specific topic of status/dress as I find myself in that social/class/whatever group as an outsider with a highschool education and a lot more freedom of expression than my friends in this group.
Writing that made me feel really grateful for my life actually. I can go and crazy dance to local jam bands. I can drive what I want and wear what I want. I have so much freedom to live the life I want to live, unencumbered by concern about status or the opinions of others. Freedom is worth infinitely more than some kind of perceived status.
I was engaged to a multi millionaire in the 90's and he wore jeans and t shirts. When he did dress up he got up from a department store like Macys or Penny's and I am sure he did not pay much.
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“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,685
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: Women and Dressing Up [Re: loladoreen]
#28568995 - 12/04/23 09:25 PM (1 month, 23 days ago) |
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I get called 'man' and 'dude' and 'bud' in street clothes.
'Sir' in office casual.
While the Cruella Devilles and Patrick Batemans are going to pretend to find fault, no matter how disciplined the workmanship, Joe Dirt doesn't know what is a good make of suit to wear.
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,339
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You definitely get treated differently when dressed up. If I wear something more casual I notice a change in how I am treated. Im not mistreated either way. But theres a difference. Especially in a work setting. If I go out dancing and dress different then work or casual clothes. It's definitely different. I impulsively went dancing. Wasn't planned wore a crop top and jeans and was surprised. I didn't think I looked that good and probably got hit on more than when in a dress. Interesting take.
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“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,685
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: Women and Dressing Up [Re: loladoreen]
#28569604 - 12/05/23 09:45 AM (1 month, 23 days ago) |
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Whether in rich or poor company, you would have to be just slightly more overdressed, than whomever. Push it too, far, and you will be unrelatable. Make no effort, and no statement.
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,339
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True
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“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”
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Anonymous #5
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Re: Women and Dressing Up [Re: loladoreen]
#28571351 - 12/06/23 10:33 AM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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Hella real statement. True to many things in life. You must make an extravagant effort. Do nothing and get nothing. Too much of anything is too much of a statement. Too unrelatable.
No one wants to deal with a living rug that just lays there has made to walk on and says nothing and does nothing. No one wants to deal with a try hard either. Too much ego. Too much greed. Unrelatable.
Always real talk
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