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InvisibleFerdinando
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praise to meditation * 4
    #28563322 - 12/01/23 06:09 AM (1 month, 27 days ago)

hey all great trips :laugh:

i just want to praise meditation it is really incredible

i have been sitting 2 x 45 min. a day for a long time

and I highly recommend it

i have gotten it much better i am extremely happy much happier and it has reduced suffering trmendously

have a great life and good action


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Ferdinando]
    #28563338 - 12/01/23 06:31 AM (1 month, 27 days ago)

super!!!!


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Ferdinando]
    #28563516 - 12/01/23 09:37 AM (1 month, 27 days ago)

Much love, Ferdinando!


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Ferdinando]
    #28563768 - 12/01/23 01:18 PM (1 month, 27 days ago)

ever try it with low dose psychedelics?


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28564583 - 12/01/23 11:29 PM (1 month, 26 days ago)

Meditate everyday.


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OfflineBardy
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Ferdinando]
    #28564634 - 12/02/23 12:43 AM (1 month, 26 days ago)

Awesome work! I’m just getting into it. Praise be to meditation!


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Invisiblecubedryeguy
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #28564636 - 12/02/23 12:45 AM (1 month, 26 days ago)



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OfflineHeroic DosageS
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: cubedryeguy]
    #28564684 - 12/02/23 02:31 AM (1 month, 26 days ago)

I can't do it for the life of me, and I've tried many times in earnest.

Maybe one day this will change.


Edited by Heroic Dosage (12/02/23 02:31 AM)


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Offlineepilectric
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Heroic Dosage]
    #28564709 - 12/02/23 03:32 AM (1 month, 26 days ago)

i completely agree. it can make so calm and serene. but it usually only lasts for about an hour after a session. i need to keep it up again. everyday 15min at least


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Heroic Dosage]
    #28564723 - 12/02/23 04:14 AM (1 month, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Heroic Dosage said:
I can't do it for the life of me, and I've tried many times in earnest.

Maybe one day this will change.



Channel your energy!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: epilectric] * 1
    #28564737 - 12/02/23 04:40 AM (1 month, 26 days ago)

Quote:

epilectric said:
i completely agree. it can make so calm and serene. but it usually only lasts for about an hour after a session. i need to keep it up again. everyday 15min at least



Of course the side effects of doing it dissipate, but the practice of following the breath, keeps on adding mental 'muscle memory' for calming down, and reconnecting to the task.
also the comfort with beginning again spreads to other things:
there are always going to be distractions, as the brain is always ready to detect movement and change, and it suppresses what is not moving, as well as navigating towards the familiar, beginning again is core to the practice of 'beginner's mind'.

if you make your moving target the breath, meditation proceeds naturally.

my simple regime for 45 mins or less

set your timer, get in a comfortable position, relax and begin
during the out breath - mentally say: "beginning," at the beginning of the out-breath, "middle," at the middle of the out-breath, and "end," at the end of the out-breath,
& during the in breath: "beginning," at the beginning of the in-breath, "middle," at the middle of the in-breath, and "end," at the end of the in-breath,
& repeat until the bell goes. relaxing as you notice the need.
& if you drift or lose it, begin again, without fuss or judgement.


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OfflineBardy
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28564750 - 12/02/23 05:06 AM (1 month, 26 days ago)

Yeah, I’ve really been enjoying trying to meditate while doing tasks throughout the day. I’m trying to do it even when I talk to people now, just noticing that I am the space in which the other person is appearing. I think I’m slowly getting better at it… I’m guessing it’s going to take a lot of practice to get good


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Bardy]
    #28564802 - 12/02/23 06:26 AM (1 month, 26 days ago)

this is advanced awareness of mental contents!


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Bardy]
    #28565271 - 12/02/23 01:11 PM (1 month, 26 days ago)

I am the space in which the other person is appearing.

Are you? Where do you appear then in order to make such a distinction?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Bardy] * 1
    #28565452 - 12/02/23 03:23 PM (1 month, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Bardy said:
Yeah, I’ve really been enjoying trying to meditate while doing tasks throughout the day. I’m trying to do it even when I talk to people now, just noticing that I am the space in which the other person is appearing. I think I’m slowly getting better at it… I’m guessing it’s going to take a lot of practice to get good




how are you practicing with this?


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OfflineBardy
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28565517 - 12/02/23 04:16 PM (1 month, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I am the space in which the other person is appearing.

Are you? Where do you appear then in order to make such a distinction?




My body appears to myself as a pair of feet on the ground, each with a leg on top which terminates at my waist. My waist sits below my torso, on which I see two arms, one coming out each side, left and right. All of this appears in the same space that the other person appears in. Not the same point in that space, but we share it. We’re both a part of it.

I am the space in which all of this is happening. I am the silence in which all of these sounds are arising. I am the darkness in which all this light is shining.

I’m just describing Douglas Harding’s teaching about being headless. I’ve just bought his book called “On Having No Head”. I haven’t read it yet but I’ve already learned how to practice it through listening to his student Richard Lang talk about it on Sam Harris’s podcast and app. It’s really, really great to learn how to do.
Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

Bardy said:
Yeah, I’ve really been enjoying trying to meditate while doing tasks throughout the day. I’m trying to do it even when I talk to people now, just noticing that I am the space in which the other person is appearing. I think I’m slowly getting better at it… I’m guessing it’s going to take a lot of practice to get good




how are you practicing with this?




Literally just whenever I think of it I try to notice what my conscious experience is like. I focus my attention on what it feels like to see, then I notice that there are sounds happening all around me. If a thought pops into my mind I notice how it just seems to arise out of nowhere, then I let it go and it disappears into nothingness, and I focus again on my experience of seeing, hearing, and bodily sensations.

When you’re in this state of mind you can try looking for the one we call “I”, the self, you can try looking for the centre of your consciousness also, and you realise that there is no I. I, in this sense of the word, is just a product of thinking. It does not truly exist.

I practice these things now whenever I think of them. When I’m at work it can be difficult, but I keep trying, because it’s all about bringing your attention back to simply being without thinking about being. Even if I can only do it for five seconds every 15 minutes I still enjoy it, and you get better at it.

When I’m at home I’ll listen to one of Sam’s guided meditations for 5-10 mins then I’ll sit there for another 10 or so minutes in silence. But I feel like trying to do it as you go about your day is just as important as making little bits of time to sit and do nothing.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Bardy]
    #28565543 - 12/02/23 04:33 PM (1 month, 25 days ago)

that works basically coming back to it every 15 mins is great too


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OfflineBardy
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28565637 - 12/02/23 05:47 PM (1 month, 25 days ago)

It’s very calming, and brings a great sense of freedom. Freedom from thoughts. Thoughts that have controlled, largely in a negative way, how I perceive my self for so long.

When you learn that these thoughts are just popping into and out of existence all the time through no fault of your own, and that you can let them go without letting one circle around your mind it is such a weight off your shoulders.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Bardy]
    #28565902 - 12/02/23 08:30 PM (1 month, 25 days ago)

space practice can dismantle the self, can be a wild ride


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OfflineBardy
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28565912 - 12/02/23 08:45 PM (1 month, 25 days ago)

Is what I described what you call space practice?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28566216 - 12/03/23 03:32 AM (1 month, 25 days ago)

what do you mean
Quote:

Freedom said:
space practice can dismantle the self, can be a wild ride




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Offlineepilectric
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28566243 - 12/03/23 04:56 AM (1 month, 25 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

epilectric said:
i completely agree. it can make so calm and serene. but it usually only lasts for about an hour after a session. i need to keep it up again. everyday 15min at least



Of course the side effects of doing it dissipate, but the practice of following the breath, keeps on adding mental 'muscle memory' for calming down, and reconnecting to the task.
also the comfort with beginning again spreads to other things:
there are always going to be distractions, as the brain is always ready to detect movement and change, and it suppresses what is not moving, as well as navigating towards the familiar, beginning again is core to the practice of 'beginner's mind'.

if you make your moving target the breath, meditation proceeds naturally.

my simple regime for 45 mins or less

set your timer, get in a comfortable position, relax and begin
during the out breath - mentally say: "beginning," at the beginning of the out-breath, "middle," at the middle of the out-breath, and "end," at the end of the out-breath,
& during the in breath: "beginning," at the beginning of the in-breath, "middle," at the middle of the in-breath, and "end," at the end of the in-breath,
& repeat until the bell goes. relaxing as you notice the need.
& if you drift or lose it, begin again, without fuss or judgement.




yes i agree to the muscle memory. it has several trickle down effects

oh and i do as long as it feels fine. sometimes 15minutes, sometimes 30, up to 45 or 1h with a break inbetween...

i basically just feel the breath, not adding any words to it


Edited by epilectric (12/03/23 04:57 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: epilectric] * 1
    #28566278 - 12/03/23 06:12 AM (1 month, 25 days ago)

I lose the words after a bit, but use them again as part of beginning again.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28566495 - 12/03/23 09:23 AM (1 month, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Bardy said:
Is what I described what you call space practice?




well i made the phrase up so yeah lol

to me there are different ways to practice with space and different levels and phenomenah but basically the core of it is a shift in perspective from being a thing subject to experience to being the space where experience arises.

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
what do you mean
Quote:

Freedom said:
space practice can dismantle the self, can be a wild ride








Noticing I'm not a thing has an immediate effect, and also draws forth hidden self concepts . they come into concsiousness and are seen through and dropped. sometimes this happens over and over and they slowly weaken, sometimes all at once. I say its a wild ride because self concepts are so fundamental to how we build our lives.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28566529 - 12/03/23 09:46 AM (1 month, 25 days ago)

I hear lots of people claim they are dropping stuff but very few drop anything desirable in practice. Except actually practicing dropping attachments. People love to let go of letting go, because then they are self-excused to do anything they desire.

But ask someone to go without a cell phone and it's pretty evident IMO. No letting go.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28566632 - 12/03/23 11:37 AM (1 month, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I hear lots of people claim they are dropping stuff but very few drop anything desirable in practice. Except actually practicing dropping attachments. People love to let go of letting go, because then they are self-excused to do anything they desire.

But ask someone to go without a cell phone and it's pretty evident IMO. No letting go.




do you mean few drop what they desire, or few drop something desireable to drop?


and few of what group? of humans? most humans don't seem to even be aware of space never mind how to practice with it.




I'm not sure you understand what I mean, what does self concept mean to you, and why do you think seeing through a self concept enables irresponsibility?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28566633 - 12/03/23 11:37 AM (1 month, 25 days ago)

this is true, dropping A THING, sets up a focused resonance of the THING and that is moved into recency (aka Short term memory)
so it becomes easier to reactivate,
i.e. by dropping it specifically we pick it up more easily perception wise.

and what is dropping it anyway, a sentence?, a command? you can let a thing fall from your hand, but how can you do that in your mind except by diverting the attention to the overall nature of mind (in buddhism usually they generalize it as attachment (aka reflexes) - but this is also usually understood to be connected to craving and desire, but that is really completely another matter - dumb religion shit).

what has to happen is to build some relaxation, some tranquility, which is a refuge from all the hundreds of reflexes firing every minute.

oddly we are building it via reflex as well, but it is the reflex to cultivate calmness, it is the calming reflex itself.

In buddhism there are 2 main kinds of meditation,
a) samatha meditation (aka relaxation) - including chakra, mandala, yantra, mantra, breathing, etc.
AND
b) vipassana meditation (aka insight) - which actually requires (a) relaxation, or it explodes, so it begins with relaxation
[ BUT ALSO
c) zen meditation - actually is a renaming of (a)&(b) revised through japanese culture and chinese history mixed in
and
d) tibetan yoga and secret doctrines.... it goes on, but I think Milarepa's Listening pose is an excellent echo of hinduism's eternal sound stuff.]


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28566641 - 12/03/23 11:41 AM (1 month, 25 days ago)

im using dropping here when something is seen through and no longer believed to be true

its like santa clause. when you learn santa isn't real, its not hard to stop believing and acting on that belief, although you might even play out the game


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28566643 - 12/03/23 11:43 AM (1 month, 25 days ago)

even if you were really attached to santa

thats why it can be a wild ride


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28566647 - 12/03/23 11:45 AM (1 month, 25 days ago)

and I get how on one hand there are a ton of people into spirituality who are bascially getting emotioanl highs and stuff, but on the other hand there are people who are having radical changes to their experience of being alive, and there are challanges that go along with that


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28566686 - 12/03/23 12:12 PM (1 month, 25 days ago)

you mean like everyone is in a different place.
and I agree, and also I think everyone could use a little calming down.
hahaha!

if they get to insight - bonus, but calming is the refuge. it can lead to -> clarity
(which of course is a delusion too, but it is a respite from chaotic reflexing aka clinging and clanging)


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28566712 - 12/03/23 12:30 PM (1 month, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
I hear lots of people claim they are dropping stuff but very few drop anything desirable in practice. Except actually practicing dropping attachments. People love to let go of letting go, because then they are self-excused to do anything they desire.

But ask someone to go without a cell phone and it's pretty evident IMO. No letting go.




do you mean few drop what they desire, or few drop something desireable to drop?


and few of what group? of humans? most humans don't seem to even be aware of space never mind how to practice with it.




I'm not sure you understand what I mean, what does self concept mean to you, and why do you think seeing through a self concept enables irresponsibility?




Few of those claiming to be free of their thoughts. Few of those claiming to be the space in which all things happen equally. I have no clue what you all are referring to honestly. But behaviorally I don't see many change with such views. Which from the outside makes it seem like just thoughts.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28566886 - 12/03/23 03:01 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

you can let a thing fall from your hand, but how can you do that in your mind except by diverting the attention to the overall nature of mind

With practice. There are many traditions which emphasize the importance of practice, and few which jump to the conclusion of practice.

I heard a psychiatrist look at sand mandalas in an interesting way. He described them in his view as a way to practice extreme effort, attention to detail, focus, etc. while knowing it will be destroyed upon completion. Practicing not letting this knowledge of impending destruction prevent the effort, the attention and focus.

One can say, ah, I get it. But that does not mean they could create such a sand mandala, nor that they would destroy their efforts freely. Such "I get it" moments are not akin to the fruit of practice.


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineBardy
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28566893 - 12/03/23 03:05 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I hear lots of people claim they are dropping stuff but very few drop anything desirable in practice. Except actually practicing dropping attachments. People love to let go of letting go, because then they are self-excused to do anything they desire.

But ask someone to go without a cell phone and it's pretty evident IMO. No letting go.




Letting go doesn’t have to happen all the time. You can practice letting go at different points throughout the day, and then come back to socialising, and your relationships, and everything that matters to you.

It’s about letting go in the moment I think. No one can do 100% of the time their whole lives.

I mean we’re only human.. we’re gonna get distracted at some point. I think it’s all about coming back to the practice when possible once you notice you’re distracted.


Edited by Bardy (12/03/23 05:03 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Bardy]
    #28566959 - 12/03/23 03:54 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Bardy said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
I hear lots of people claim they are dropping stuff but very few drop anything desirable in practice. Except actually practicing dropping attachments. People love to let go of letting go, because then they are self-excused to do anything they desire.

But ask someone to go without a cell phone and it's pretty evident IMO. No letting go.




Letting go doesn’t have to happen all the time. You can practice letting go at different points throughout the day, and then come back to socialising, and your relationships, and everything that matters to you.

It’s about letting go in the moment I think. No one can do 100% of the time their whole lives.



I think you mean letting go as in breathe
which is a shift in attention

this is non specific.

if you make it transitive, then the object of the letting go keeps recycling associatively


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28567031 - 12/03/23 04:41 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

No, I don't mean just breath. Although it is a very common place to put attention.

Edit: oops, I missed that you quoted bardy :smile:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Bardy]
    #28567045 - 12/03/23 04:49 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Bardy said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
I hear lots of people claim they are dropping stuff but very few drop anything desirable in practice. Except actually practicing dropping attachments. People love to let go of letting go, because then they are self-excused to do anything they desire.

But ask someone to go without a cell phone and it's pretty evident IMO. No letting go.




Letting go doesn’t have to happen all the time. You can practice letting go at different points throughout the day, and then come back to socialising, and your relationships, and everything that matters to you.

It’s about letting go in the moment I think. No one can do 100% of the time their whole lives.




I agree that skill is a matter of degree. But is space a matter of degree? Are you saying sometimes space is spacious and sometimes it is not? Or are you saying that you are not that space now, but you were before? Or that you only feel like space when you are thinking spacey


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28567101 - 12/03/23 05:25 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
I hear lots of people claim they are dropping stuff but very few drop anything desirable in practice. Except actually practicing dropping attachments. People love to let go of letting go, because then they are self-excused to do anything they desire.

But ask someone to go without a cell phone and it's pretty evident IMO. No letting go.




do you mean few drop what they desire, or few drop something desireable to drop?


and few of what group? of humans? most humans don't seem to even be aware of space never mind how to practice with it.




I'm not sure you understand what I mean, what does self concept mean to you, and why do you think seeing through a self concept enables irresponsibility?




Few of those claiming to be free of their thoughts. Few of those claiming to be the space in which all things happen equally. I have no clue what you all are referring to honestly. But behaviorally I don't see many change with such views. Which from the outside makes it seem like just thoughts.




so you're saying you don't understand what I'm saying, and instead of ignoring it or trying to understand it, you're associating it with something else and then imagining that association invalidates as "just thoughts"?


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28567110 - 12/03/23 05:31 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
you can let a thing fall from your hand, but how can you do that in your mind except by diverting the attention to the overall nature of mind

With practice. There are many traditions which emphasize the importance of practice, and few which jump to the conclusion of practice.

I heard a psychiatrist look at sand mandalas in an interesting way. He described them in his view as a way to practice extreme effort, attention to detail, focus, etc. while knowing it will be destroyed upon completion. Practicing not letting this knowledge of impending destruction prevent the effort, the attention and focus.

One can say, ah, I get it. But that does not mean they could create such a sand mandala, nor that they would destroy their efforts freely. Such "I get it" moments are not akin to the fruit of practice.




I agree with this 100%. I think playing music is similar in a way. It is only there while you’re playing, and then it is not.

I don’t think I totally understand what you mean by is space a matter of degree… but I’d say I am always the space, it’s just whether or not I’m paying attention.

The language around this stuff can get really confusing lol


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28567112 - 12/03/23 05:32 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
you mean like everyone is in a different place.
and I agree, and also I think everyone could use a little calming down.
hahaha!

if they get to insight - bonus, but calming is the refuge. it can lead to -> clarity
(which of course is a delusion too, but it is a respite from chaotic reflexing aka clinging and clanging)




I think they go hand in hand and there's a natural unfolding

like maybe shamatah sounds boring so the person can't do it  but space sounds exciting, then the great amazing mind blowing insights lead to oh, normal "boring"  shamatah, but then the practice of that gets more subtle and intresting and then oh wait it provides a foundatino to stabilize insight and then those mind blowing insights just become normal and

or perhaps a person is scared of insight but calming sounds nice, but then when they get real calm they start to become curious or....

but yeah if everyone had calm abiding as a tool that would be hella tight. there is a lot of insight in just that actually. By cutting of the mindless proliferation of thought a great deal of dullness and confusion can be cleared away


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28567119 - 12/03/23 05:34 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
so you're saying you don't understand what I'm saying, and instead of ignoring it or trying to understand it, you're associating it with something else and then imagining that association invalidates as "just thoughts"?




Nope. My original post was about my experience of people and had nothing to do with you specifically. The follow up was my way of saying I don't know enough about you to make any such claims. I'm not in your shoes. So I don't know what you're saying, no. At best I can relate through my own experiences. Which is what I did.

Take it or leave it

If you think you can give me an experience to relate to this differently feel free :cheers:


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Bardy]
    #28567192 - 12/03/23 05:57 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Bardy said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
you can let a thing fall from your hand, but how can you do that in your mind except by diverting the attention to the overall nature of mind

With practice. There are many traditions which emphasize the importance of practice, and few which jump to the conclusion of practice.

I heard a psychiatrist look at sand mandalas in an interesting way. He described them in his view as a way to practice extreme effort, attention to detail, focus, etc. while knowing it will be destroyed upon completion. Practicing not letting this knowledge of impending destruction prevent the effort, the attention and focus.

One can say, ah, I get it. But that does not mean they could create such a sand mandala, nor that they would destroy their efforts freely. Such "I get it" moments are not akin to the fruit of practice.




I agree with this 100%. I think playing music is similar in a way. It is only there while you’re playing, and then it is not.

I don’t think I totally understand what you mean by is space a matter of degree… but I’d say I am always the space, it’s just whether or not I’m paying attention.

The language around this stuff can get really confusing lol




If you're always the space and space encapsulates everything, how could you not pay attention to it? What are you paying attention to that is somehow outside the bounds?


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28567200 - 12/03/23 05:59 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

oh ok I was trying to link what you were saying to what I was.

its pretty easy, but you just have to be able to drop your conceptual overlay a little.

just feel your hand. its really that easy. start with a finger tip. take a moment, put all your attention into the fingertip and notice how the sensation changes. be patient its slow, but as you keep your attention in the same place you'll notice changes. can you feel the buzzing in it? then feel your whole hand. feel all the buzzing sensations at once.

then within all that buzzing simply notice the sensation of space. the hand is full of space. its like space full of scintilating microscopic sensations. if thats clear notice how the space within the hand isn't seperate from the space outside the hand. thats it. its very simple. it can take a few minutes to build up enough concentration.

Another, perhaps more difficult step, If you open the whole body and all the senses to space and there is no longer a distinction between inside and outside, the weight of the self slips away. if you see this it wont matter what anyone has told you about it, or what you think about people who make claims. You will see exactly for yourself. and if you can function in the world without that weight, then you will see exactly how that is, and it won't matter what you think about hippies who talk about attachment or whatever.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28567247 - 12/03/23 06:23 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
...

If you're always the space and space encapsulates everything, how could you not pay attention to it? What are you paying attention to that is somehow outside the bounds?



so you mean the space is the totality of active mental contents.
that really would be vipassana

no matter how hard anyone tries to jump into the vipassana meditation recipe, they must pass through samatha first, calming - it just works like that.

also if one intends to just do samatha, it turns into vipassana eventually, it just does.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28567606 - 12/03/23 10:14 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

“A man is struck in the chest with a poison arrow, and a surgeon rushes to his side to begin the work of saving his life. But the man resists. He first wants to know the name of the fletcher who fashioned the arrow’s shaft, and the type of wood from which it was cut, and the motive of the man who shot it, and the name of the horse on which he rode; and a thousand other things that have no bearing at all upon his present suffering or ultimate survival.

So this man needs to get his priorities straight. His commitment to thinking about the world results from a basic misunderstanding of his predicament. And though we may be only dimly aware of it, we too have problems that will not be solved by more thinking.”

An excerpt from a podcast on the Waking Up app where Sam talks about a Buddhist parable. Really struck a chord with me.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28567875 - 12/04/23 07:01 AM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
If thats clear notice how the space within the hand isn't seperate from the space outside the hand. thats it.




It seems to me that to see something as not separate, one would need to see it as separate first. And if one can see it as separate, then what IYO makes this less true/valuable?


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28567879 - 12/04/23 07:06 AM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
...

If you're always the space and space encapsulates everything, how could you not pay attention to it? What are you paying attention to that is somehow outside the bounds?



so you mean the space is the totality of active mental contents.
that really would be vipassana

no matter how hard anyone tries to jump into the vipassana meditation recipe, they must pass through samatha first, calming - it just works like that.

also if one intends to just do samatha, it turns into vipassana eventually, it just does.




For me it's closer to utilizing the ability to reason than settling on any particular state of mind. The Mulamadhyamakakarika does a good job of using reasoning to disavow many unreasonable views that arise from Buddhist and Hindu teachings which get rehashed over and over again.

Asking reasonable questions is, well, reasonable in my estimation. If there is no reasonable answer then perhaps the view is unreasonable.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28567931 - 12/04/23 08:02 AM (1 month, 24 days ago)

that's true, not all Buddhist monks are meditating monks, they may chant with the sangha, and then study and think and discuss sutras.
Occasionally ratiocination, (thinking) like chanting, provides a form of samatha, or peacefulness. Similarly, in the Tibetan schools, texts and visual objects become revered instead of learning anapanasati. You could say that through the door of the intellect these people practice their religion and obtain benefit of it.
I would equate that with prayers and putting on phylacteries.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28567936 - 12/04/23 08:04 AM (1 month, 24 days ago)

If the human mind is impermanent, best to make use of it while it's here. That's my take.

My grandpa passed on the saying: make hay while the sun is shining


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28567952 - 12/04/23 08:24 AM (1 month, 24 days ago)

yes, do good while you can do


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle] * 2
    #28568033 - 12/04/23 09:41 AM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
If thats clear notice how the space within the hand isn't seperate from the space outside the hand. thats it.




It seems to me that to see something as not separate, one would need to see it as separate first. And if one can see it as separate, then what IYO makes this less true/valuable?




I was responding to this,
Quote:

If you think you can give me an experience to relate to this differently feel free :cheers:




and yeah what I said starts from the perspective of duality.

the way I see it is these are just perspectives. shifts of perception. removing  filters of self and world concepts. space and the dissolution of self concepts is just one little aspect to the investigation of mind

so just like persepctives in general, looking from a different angle isn't more or less true, however it may be more or less helpful depending on what you're looking for. like if you're trying to find someone wearing glasses, looking at people from behind probably won't work as well as looking from in front.

also while one perspective is not more true than another, new perspectives do add more information. depending on how we define truth, more data from more perspectives means more truth.

and like I was saying the practice of space can disolve self concepts. thats different than the practice of planning your life, which reinforces self concepts. world concepts too.

part of the value is simply to have a choice to see through a particular filter or not. when your mind is always glued to one filter, you see through that filter weather you want or not, weather its helpful or not. if you've never seen another you don't even know its possible.

but when perspectives loosen up things can adjust as needed. its like if you're hunting maybe you want a wide open awareness, listening looking in all directions, and maybe when you're cutting a joint while building furniture you want to focus on one little detail


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28568040 - 12/04/23 09:48 AM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Good answer IMO


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28568049 - 12/04/23 09:57 AM (1 month, 24 days ago)

too logical answer IMHO
non-duality is experienced, not inferred.
it is not a sequence of this therefore that.
instead it is many moments experienced as one, and all signals experienced as a chord or chorus, one voice.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28568270 - 12/04/23 12:47 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Funknee


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28568342 - 12/04/23 01:46 PM (1 month, 23 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
too logical answer IMHO
non-duality is experienced, not inferred.
it is not a sequence of this therefore that.
instead it is many moments experienced as one, and all signals experienced as a chord or chorus, one voice.





I'm talking about practicing with space, not sure where non duality comes in


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28568349 - 12/04/23 01:50 PM (1 month, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
If thats clear notice how the space within the hand isn't seperate from the space outside the hand. thats it.




It seems to me that to see something as not separate, one would need to see it as separate first. And if one can see it as separate, then what IYO makes this less true/valuable?




What you’re talking about with this specific example I think is the perceived border between the gases in our atmosphere and the particles which make up our skin organ. But I think this is a border which only exists conceptually in a way, so much as we call things “atmosphere” and “skin”. The words and concepts draw borders between things which don’t exist in the truest sense.

We (the gas and us) are all made up from the same fundamental elements.

It is helpful to recognise these borders of course, in order to survive. Conceptual thinking and the borders we create between all things is probably a very good evolutionary adaptation.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Bardy]
    #28568452 - 12/04/23 03:10 PM (1 month, 23 days ago)

Makes me think of a thing Zen teachers do from time to time. Whack the shoulder with a stick. Also funny stories about tweaking noses and the like.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28568472 - 12/04/23 03:41 PM (1 month, 23 days ago)

so here is something written by Jeffery Martin that is written much better than my words but is getting at the same thing. According to him what I'm talking about with space is refered to as non duality, but I don't consider it an end point or ultimate reality, because as mentions at the end of the quote, there is more to see.

Quote:

Layer 2 is the first layer beyond Layer 1 and involves the experience of all-containing
spaciousness and emptiness. The experience of it at Location 2 is what the majority of Finders
and literature on Fundamental Wellbeing describe as persistent awakening, nonduality, or
enlightenment. It is relatively rare for Finders in the general public to persistently go beyond
this combination of location and layer.

The most distinguishing qualities of Layer 2 are those of spaciousness, emptiness, vastness,
nothingness, expansiveness, formlessness, and so on. There is a sense that this aware emptiness
contains and encompasses everything, and that everything seems to be arising from and within.
Attention is centered more in the present, in direct experience rather than thoughts about
experience. When Layer 1 is no longer front and center in experience, the overlay of labels,
concepts, and interpretations on being and/or existence is no longer present. Everything is
experienced to just be here, within the limitless spacious clarity of Layer 2, and can feel truly
miraculous from this perspective.

Layers have degrees of depth to them, meaning someone can be on the shallow end in Layer
2, in the middle, or deeper. As one deepens into Layer 2, one gains increasing distance from
Layer 1 and mental activity feels increasingly impersonal and spontaneous. As this happens,
it becomes clear from a subjective experience standpoint that one is not one’s thoughts or
emotions, nor the agent of them. This results from subjective experience centering deeper in
Layer 2 and away from Layer 1. Consequently, the contents of Layer 1 can feel more in the
background, or as though they are arising within an overall context of stillness and spaciousness
(i.e., Layer 2) that feels deeper and more real than the movement of thought.

As perception moves into deeper layers, there are progressively greater depths and qualities
of stillness/silence. (The terms “stillness” and “silence” are used interchangeably, with some
Finders preferring one term over the other. “Silence” in this context does not refer to an absence
of audible sound, and “stillness” does not refer to everything being perceptually motionless.
Both “stillness” and “silence” are used to point to an existential quality of experience itself
that emerges as the perceptual filters, most obviously the activity of Layer 1, are progressively
removed.)
As mentioned, the stillness/silence relates to stripping away or getting beneath the processes
that filter and structure perception, beginning with the Layer 1 (i.e., labels, concepts,
interpretations, etc.) in the case of Layer 2. Layer 2 feels like a greater or more foundational
context for the unfolding of experience at Layer 1. The deeper layer, in this case Layer 2, feels
independent of the content of the preceding layer(s), in this case Layer 1.

This sense of distance from and space around Layer 1 makes its activity seem much less
compelling, and one typically becomes less reactive. This makes Layer 2 very effective for
releasing and reprogramming previously acquired psychological conditioning at Layer 1. The
downside of this is that Layer 2 can be used to disown and escape the parts of the system
where challenging conditioning resides. This is usually what is meant when people speak about
“spiritual bypassing”. Deepening away from Layer 1 may remove it from one’s subjective
awareness, but that does not mean it stops operating. This essentially leaves the conditioned
psychological tendencies that reside at Layer 1 to function unsupervised, which may not lead
to optimal life outcomes.

This tendency of Layer 2 is mostly relevant from Location 2 on, where one is able to more fully
isolate in Layer 2, and where this layer can feel like one has “made it” in terms of Fundamental
Wellbeing. A significant amount of religious and spiritual literature describes this experience
and assumes it to be the end of the path of deepening further into Fundamental Wellbeing.
This can lead people to root into it as deeply as they can, which can prevent the experience of
still deeper layers, and also significantly disconnect them from Layer 1. This, as mentioned, can
have unfavorable consequences in terms of overall integration and life functionality.




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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28568510 - 12/04/23 04:09 PM (1 month, 23 days ago)

I'm going to share a little more of this cause it seems so relevant and I find it so well written. o couple of words he uses, Locations refer to long term shifts that people experience and layers refers to layers of mind.

Quote:

The deeper experiences of Layer 2 typically only
occur for Finders from Location 2 on, where the
experience of Layer 2 moves more to the foreground
of moment-to-moment experience. Location 2
is nondual, meaning that there is no perception of
separation between subject (observer) and object
(observed). There is only a unified field of experience.
As a result, in Location 2 the experience of Layer
2 is also nondual. It feels as though one is indistinct
from the space in which everything arises and, deeper
into the layer, from the substance of everything
arising as well. Because of the nonduality at Location
2, especially beyond Layer 1 and the shallow end of
Layer 2, there is no sense of distinction between
the object of experience, the experiencer, and
the process of experiencing. It all seems to unfold
as one field of experience. There is no longer a
sense of within or without, the spaciousness is all
encompassing.

In this deeper experience of Layer 2, there is an
association with the substance of its spaciousness as
one’s true nature, which is also experienced as the
essential nature of everything. Perception becomes
progressively centered on Layer 2’s central qualities
of spaciousness and emptiness. This increasingly
highlights the impermanent and relative nature of
other aspects of perceptual experience, like thought,
emotion, sensation, and so on, which seem to come
and go, all contained within the properties, the
spaciousness, of Layer 2. Subjectively, it can feel
as though, instead of one’s body moving through
the world, the perceptual experience of the world is
flowing through the motionless, spacious clarity of
Layer 2. As one moves progressively deeper into the
layer, the experience of Layer 2 often feels more real
to Finders than anything else, in this case because
everything else seems impermanent by contrast.




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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28568651 - 12/04/23 06:10 PM (1 month, 23 days ago)

I prefer the less detailed second JM quote post above, the first one presents too many concepts and too much of that is theoretical in a direction that needs work or abandonment.

I am familiar with experiences like this but I have not previously called the absorption states layers - In yoga and buddhism they are called jhanas, and you can look that up on the web, 5 or six of them are commonly talked about which he (Finders? martin? not sure who is naming this stuff layers) has collapsed the jhanas into 2 resonant mental states.

He is describing what happens after calming is established (his layer 1), and the awareness is more fully sensory rather than perceptive, (i.e. not mentally working out anything,) just being there - he  refers to a perception of spaciousness in place of  chains of thought ramifying and interrupting this relaxed clearly reflective space - just experiencing here and now, as it cascades and reverberates naturally.

Something similar happens as when we get stoned on psychedelics, in that time is experienced in a frame stacked way (I do use layers to describe frame stacking) i.e. the moments fade more slowly and the experience becomes conjoined, like the many armed goddesses just being there, like the many headed buddhas keeping still but unlocked, it's simple and unified, neither dual nor multiple, until it is interrupted, because it is a state.

None of these states persist.

the buildup to the 2nd layer (I wish he called it a jhana or stage or resonant mind state instead of layer 2), follows several moves towards sustained concentration, which I find can happen after 5-20 minutes: My interpretation is that the short term memory becomes full of readiness to begin good concentration by virtue of several moves towards relaxed awareness, visiting several 'doorways', and this recent experience is helpful in continuing restarting concentration: i.e. following the breath and noticing phenomena arising in mind without reacting.

without reacting is quite an important factor among the qualities in the moves made towards relaxed awareness, and I think it is the way to the space he is talking about. supported by recent mental contents that pit awareness as a reflex process reflecting mental contents (i.e. everything that comes to awareness).

In the second phase/layer it becomes more of a it keeps on going spaciously thing from a let's restart thing in layer/phase 1.

traditionally layer 1 is split up into more jhanas, and so is layer 2.

I think I get what you mean by space now, and it is a good thing to bring up.
thank you. I like reducing the complexity of meditative resonant states to just 2!


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28569577 - 12/05/23 09:29 AM (1 month, 23 days ago)

I appreciate his work, bringing a scientific secular approach to spiritual practice.

his initial paper was about the persistent shifts (locations) and was full of interesting information. he studied people who reported having what he calls "persistant non symbolic experience", and found four clusters that he called locations.

Quote:

Abstract: Persistent forms of nondual awareness, enlightenment, mystical experience,
and so forth (Persistent Non-Symbolic Experience) have been reported since antiquity.
Though sporadic research has been performed on these experiences, the scientific
literature has yet to report a large-scale cognitive psychology study of this population.
Method: Assessment of the subjective experience of 319 adult participants reporting
persistent non-symbolic experience was undertaken using 6-12 hour semi-structured
interviews and evaluated using grounded theory and thematic analysis. Results: Five core,
consistent categories of change were uncovered: sense-of-self, cognition, affect,
perception, and memory. Participants’ reports formed phenomenological groups in which
the types of change in each of these categories were consistent. Multiple groupings were
uncovered that formed a range of composite experiences. The variety of these
experiences and their underlying categories may inform the debate between
constructivist, common core, and participatory theorists.




https://digitalcommons.ciis.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1031&context=conscjournal


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28569596 - 12/05/23 09:40 AM (1 month, 23 days ago)

if you're interesting here is a page to links where he goes into a lot of detail on the locations and layers: https://www.nonsymbolic.org/finders/


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28569661 - 12/05/23 10:21 AM (1 month, 23 days ago)

I'll check it out and report here, am a bit side tracked today


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28569718 - 12/05/23 11:03 AM (1 month, 23 days ago)

OK - I had a quick look and took their survey and was pleased to see that I have temporary well being.

oddly none of their questions are meditation practice oriented, and their assessments are not related to anything concrete on the face of it.

Several of their survey questions relate to aspects of the divine which I could not in all honesty answer as they are put forth.

I am not their market, they are marketing something and it is not just clear information, it is belonging, like belonging to a cult.

I will take a step back from further exploration of Jeffery's group as I find them idiosyncratic.

Certainly you can gain benefit from any form of meditation that you practice, but I do not feel like trying to make more sense out of the reams of text they produce while establishing the merits of their jargony construct of what mind, and well being entails.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28569813 - 12/05/23 12:09 PM (1 month, 23 days ago)

Do you have me on ignore, RGV's? :sad:


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28569933 - 12/05/23 01:25 PM (1 month, 23 days ago)

can the ideas not stand on the
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
OK - I had a quick look and took their survey and was pleased to see that I have temporary well being.

oddly none of their questions are meditation practice oriented, and their assessments are not related to anything concrete on the face of it.

Several of their survey questions relate to aspects of the divine which I could not in all honesty answer as they are put forth.

I am not their market, they are marketing something and it is not just clear information, it is belonging, like belonging to a cult.

I will take a step back from further exploration of Jeffery's group as I find them idiosyncratic.

Certainly you can gain benefit from any form of meditation that you practice, but I do not feel like trying to make more sense out of the reams of text they produce while establishing the merits of their jargony construct of what mind, and well being entails.




Its like you were on one of those game shows with 3 doors and you get to open one of them:

Door number 1) a silly survey

Door number 2) bad marketing vibes

Door number 3) a resurch paper and related commentary (the door the audiance was pointing  too :p)

I'm not suprised you didn't find anything valuable behind doors 1 and 2

personally i get a used car salesman vibe, but that thats not the part I find interesting


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Pinkerton]
    #28569996 - 12/05/23 02:10 PM (1 month, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Pinkerton said:
Do you have me on ignore, RGV's? :sad:



what?


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28570001 - 12/05/23 02:15 PM (1 month, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:


Door number 3) a resurch paper and related commentary (the door the audiance was pointing  too :p)





I do not see the research paper you mean,
if you have an explicit link please send it, there are about a hundred links in the research section that are not research even though the list is predicated as peer reviewed research.

anyway peer reviewed research can also be flawed, but what I see good is that it is meditation you are doing inspired by whomever and you are getting some results.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28570010 - 12/05/23 02:20 PM (1 month, 22 days ago)



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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28570045 - 12/05/23 02:47 PM (1 month, 22 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Pinkerton said:
Do you have me on ignore, RGV's? :sad:



what?



Oh, I thought you ignored me.

Yay! :heart::heart::heart:

I get more and more "messages" we are about to win it.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28570048 - 12/05/23 02:48 PM (1 month, 22 days ago)

well, it's a paper, one that can stand on it's own in the philosophy of mind stage, but I am not comfortable with the work behind it or with the theory, each time I look again I am more uncomfortable with anything they say past layer 2, which makes me question all of it.

All of it seems anecdotal. I thought they might report statistically and graphically but really they are just self promoting their framework.

that's how I see it.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28570177 - 12/05/23 04:28 PM (1 month, 22 days ago)

its rare to find someone in location 1 or 2, even more rare in 3 or 4. those that are in 3 or 4 typically don't go around talking about it. There are communities where people report the types of phenomena mentioned in locations 3 and 4. location 4 especially stands out to me because its always the same pattern, the person reports no seperate self, no agency, no , no time, no things and no causation. People also report this happening all at once, like suddenly they saw the world differently and this shift became long term.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28570210 - 12/05/23 04:53 PM (1 month, 22 days ago)

I see this kind of thing fairly traditionally, like jhana states, and as such they are impermanent, they are not like levels of healthy mental existence.

I think the group is playing on peoples insecurities by identifying people as being at levels.

All people go to all the levels, and some go fairly purposedly and frequently and sometimes get the benefits of returning to some of these levels temporarily during zazen.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28570479 - 12/05/23 07:33 PM (1 month, 22 days ago)

the janna states correspond more to what he calls levels, which are layers of the mind  operating simultaneously. the locations are peristant shifts in experience. he writes they chose the word "location" in an attempt to avoid people projecting value judgements...


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28570498 - 12/05/23 07:40 PM (1 month, 22 days ago)

I think they are sort of close with layers but really far on location.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28570652 - 12/05/23 08:55 PM (1 month, 22 days ago)

how so?


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28570784 - 12/05/23 10:39 PM (1 month, 22 days ago)

Layers like resonant mental states or jhanas
But location flat out untrue
No evidence of it.
Normal consciousness is normal


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28570935 - 12/06/23 04:46 AM (1 month, 22 days ago)

Normal consciousness is normal

How para is consciously paranormal?


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Pinkerton]
    #28570965 - 12/06/23 05:51 AM (1 month, 22 days ago)

good point, I was tired and should not post inferior content, shame on me.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28570969 - 12/06/23 05:55 AM (1 month, 22 days ago)

I am daydreaming about airport lounges and flights... :drooling:


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Pinkerton]
    #28571021 - 12/06/23 06:33 AM (1 month, 22 days ago)

you are free


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28571030 - 12/06/23 06:38 AM (1 month, 22 days ago)

As long as I have intrusive/racing thoughts I am not free. :shrug:


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28571083 - 12/06/23 07:14 AM (1 month, 22 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I'll check it out and report here, am a bit side tracked today




me too if only we could meditate more to find our center sooner not you you already found your center

the side tracked makes us do worse

but I still managed 2 x 45 min. of meditation


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Ferdinando]
    #28571145 - 12/06/23 07:53 AM (1 month, 22 days ago)

dude I find it and lose it 10 times per day
that is the way


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28571154 - 12/06/23 07:57 AM (1 month, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Pinkerton said:
As long as I have intrusive/racing thoughts I am not free. :shrug:




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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Pinkerton]
    #28571158 - 12/06/23 08:00 AM (1 month, 22 days ago)

Dude, counter restlessness with breathing.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28571222 - 12/06/23 08:37 AM (1 month, 22 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Layers like resonant mental states or jhanas
But location flat out untrue
No evidence of it.
Normal consciousness is normal





why would you make a claim about something you have no evidence for? assuming a positive or a negative is not logical if you lack evidence

he notes two things about people who have shifted, first from the outside it doesn't look very different, second they typically don't talk about it. so its not surprising that you wouldn't have evidence, we are talking about shifts in someones internal experience, not shifts in their outward appearance.

there are resources where you may find evidence, however.

here is some evidence written by someone outside the buddhist tradition who writes in her own unique way (from  This Terrible Love Blog,

Quote:

A surprising number of people write me wanting to know how life is seen, how the world of apparent people and events looks to me. They’ve heard various speakers say that there is simply "no one" there, that everything that appears has no meaning, and even the judgments of good and bad no longer apply. It often sounds very detached, and speakers seem like they have a rule prohibiting them from discussing their direct perceptions and speaking to their audience as intimates.

So there’s a lot of “no one” and “nothing” language, as in "life is happening for no one" or "life happens, but is impersonal." From messages I receive, it seems that when sages speak this way, seekers imagine some detached observer sitting aloof from the swirling kaleidoscope of life, watching it all from a kind of void-like state.

I doubt very much that is how life seems to nonduality speakers, and certainly it’s not like that at all for this Miranda thingie. So I will try to address the many questions that ask how life seems if there is no meaning or separation.

I should begin by saying that nothing that appears ever seems caused, so in the world of seeming others---in so-called “person” or in the mediated forms we call internet or TV--- everything people do and say seems like something out of an outlandish Sci-Fi or fantasy film.

Nothing having meaning is hard to explain, but imagine you woke up one seeming day and everyone was debating the state of basket weaving in every country. Nations went to war over basket weaving, news stories centered on basket weaving, and basket weavers were the most revered people on Earth.
Or that marriages consisted of exactly 5 people--- two men, two women, and one nonbinary person, and any deviation from that was considered abnormal and even immoral. Or that people went nude everywhere, and those who wore clothes were ridiculed and in some countries stoned to death. Except for fingers, which were considered blasphemy to show, so everyone always wore gloves, and if you went glove-less the police would chop off your hands. And most people believed that chipmunks were gods who created the world and sent messages to the chipmunk popes who were the human religious authorities in each land.

That's how political, social, spiritual and moral "issues" of "society" seem, rooted as they are in the myth of separation.

When people talk of their “identity” and mention some imaginary category of human (which is already an imaginary category), whether nationality or race or religion, it sounds, as my friend Lynn says, like someone is saying, “I am an eggplant and I am proud of that, it defines me and eggplant culture must be heard.” Or: “My people are a bowl of soup! Soup people, that’s what we are!”

As Nancy once wrote, "The running commentary is not believed. There is no solidity to the thought stream. It's all even and equal... whether it is someone talking about purple unicorns on the moon or politics or whether it will rain on Tuesday. It has no meaning nor non meaning like the tree tops dancing in the wind."

There is simply nothing that appears that makes the slightest bit of logical sense, as the very concepts of some "thing" and "logic" and "sense" are absent.

It’s an Alice in Wonderland world:

“I don’t want to go among mad people,” Alice remarked.
“Oh, you can’t help that,” said the Cat. “We’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad.”
“How do you know I’m mad?” said Alice.
“You must be,” said the Cat, “or you wouldn’t have come here.”

The world that appears is a surreal carnival where no action seems to happen in relation to any other, and the appearance of continuity is as illusory as trying to find fixed variables for subatomic particles. Kaleidoscopic is my favorite term to describe it, as any pattern that appears soon seems to dissolve into another, and yet there is never any movement from, to, or back and forth or forward in time or space, as they are also only the shifting web of imaginary named patterns.

What is seen is indecipherable, as all words are like baby talk with a baby pointing this way or that. I suppose that is why some say this is nothing appearing as everything, as there is no place or source from which anything can be seen to arise or fall back into.

I do resonate with speakers who say nothing is personal, yet I would also say that everything is stunningly intimate. My family is right when they say I feel no deeper connection to them than to anyone else. I can look at a photo of my brother’s child, but it doesn’t seem like “my” nephew. I simply see a smiling human and I smile myself. But if someone online posts a picture of their child smiling, the intimacy felt is exactly the same.

I can relate to Byron Katie saying, when they told her that her family was there to see her after her awakening, that she expected to see little children and was surprised to see adults. If you say you’re my family, wonderful. Whoever you are, you are all my family, any appearing human as much as any other.

Everyone I see, in any apparent instant of perception, is my most intimate family member, from someone online to someone walking in the woods to the man who threatened to kill me. All are my lovers, all the beloved. Yet all who appear seem no more like actual separate individuals than characters in a nighttime dream.

When you write me, and I read your words, it always feels as if I am writing them. We are characters dreamed by life, but that is simply a way of trying to make it sound like what is going on is knowable, when all these analogies and descriptions are also part of a surreal carnival that makes no sense whatsoever.

And even that is one more fairy tale, as there is not even any center from which this writing seems to appear. Who is writing, what is writing, and what these words are and where they come from is impossible to answer. If thoughts come up about it and don’t go away, the neural pathways in my candy apple brain will start to short circuit and catch fire and my head will explode. That’s my theory, anyway.

The happy part, for this deranged Miranda thingie, is that there is no one here who gives a whit about what seems to happen or does not. No one who is looking for meaning or non-meaning; just a child playing in the grass and blowing dandelions in the wind. When people say they love me or hate me, it’s wonderful that there is no difference. It’s just like heavy metal and Mozart, and both are beautiful. And even beauty is made up.

And this sounds truly awful to some, because it includes all the things you love and all the things you fear; the things you call babies smiling and nuclear war, tender kisses and mass shootings, volcanoes and hurricanes and languid sunny days, playing on the beach and drowning in a tsunami.

All are loved, and yet none of those things seem like true descriptions as they are all imaginary separate movements in an inseparable dance where no one can even find a dancer. All these names and concepts about what appears are like looking at clouds and seeing shapes and naming them, which is all the entire world we seem to share consists of: names written on cloud shapes, blowing across an empty sky.

Alice said, “If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn’t. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn’t be. And what it wouldn’t be, it would. You see?”

Yes, I do indeed, Alice!

Aoetl, (always only ever this love),

...The Miranda Thingie... (words spilling out into in the middle of an apparent night in wonderland) đź’“




Edited by Freedom (12/06/23 08:57 AM)


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28571256 - 12/06/23 09:05 AM (1 month, 22 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Dude, counter restlessness with breathing.




or a calming anchor. the body can be difficult place to start with if the there is trauma or even a back log of repressed feelings, which most people have. the hands and feet tend to a safe place to start if breath practice makes things worse. I know some people that started with sound as an anchor as they had too much trauma in the body


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28571307 - 12/06/23 09:41 AM (1 month, 22 days ago)

here's another one, sounds genuine to me

Quote:


Michael Markham My story:
As a child, I would ride my horse North of the ranch, lay on the sagebrush flats,
watch the clouds, and wonder what the hell was going on.

Wyoming was a hunting, drinking, and fighting world then, no place for introverted little
boys.

The first photograph I remember, I was sitting on my dad's half-crazy dapple gray with
a cowboy hat and a Coors beer in my hand. I was two years old.

Jackson had a bar on every corner, and I became familiar with them all as the years
passed. Over the next ten years, I became an expert. Drinking took over and almost
destroyed my life.

They say nurses and teachers love cowboys, but I don't remember much. Sometimes I wish I
could. Sometimes I'm glad I don't. I married my high school sweetheart, had a beautiful
baby boy, and had a successful business.

Life was good, and I continued to drink a lot.

My parents died early from drinking, and I came close to following their example. With a
little help from like-minded people, I slowly found my way back to sanity, and I suppose
that right along there, someplace, my spiritual journey began.

My life seemed a little out of sync for as long as I can remember. Nothing seemed to
match up. Growing up, I attended nine different schools, and friends were never a
priority. Alcohol seemed to soothe that a little, but fear and pain always returned,
sometimes with friends.

The first book I remember picking up was "The Golden Bough: A Study in Comparative
Religion". What followed was a compulsive search for the one book that held the secret of
secrets. I exhausted the New Age section, switched back and forth between the Religion
and Philosophy sections, and dabbled in the Poetry shelves. I read everything I could
find in the Eastern Religion area and eventually settled on Advaita as my chosen path.
If you name an author remotely related to Advaita I have read everything they ever wrote.
If there was a teacher within reach.....I would reach out to them. Not for a moment did
the search for personal relevance let up.

I played with out-of-body experiences and lucid dreaming for ten years and was convinced
that I could push my way through walls and travel in outer space. I had some experiences
that would shock even you.

I kept notes, underlined and dog-eared books, and I wrote in the margins. I wore out two
copies of A Course In Miracles and took the year-long exercises twice, I read the
Ashtavakra Gita three times. I checked out Scientology and read any channeled books I
could find. I really like Seth and Jane Roberts. I loved Don Juan and tried the "power
walk" without shin guards. I even read a Shirley MacLaine book. Books and manuscripts
completely filled two sides of my two-car garage. I traveled to sit with teachers and
attended Non-Dual seminars.

Even now, when I see an Amazon box, I get a little shot of adrenaline.

And then, that night in Las Vegas.

My wife and I attended a wholesale clothing show in Las Vegas twice a year. We usually
stayed at the Hilton.

Here the search had become my constant companion, and as usual, as I was drifting off to
sleep, I was pondering the essential emptiness of all things. Intellectually, I had
understood for many years that things themselves had no actual existential reality.
I knew that there were no such things as "mountains" or "rivers" or the state of "Texas,”
and as I started to slip into my evening dreamtime, came the thought:
"If there are no such things as things, what does that say about the holder of things?"
Everything started to spin, and I could not find my center.
Immediately I was gripped by an intense panic and tried to push the thought away. Another thought came:
"You little chicken shit, you have yearned for this moment your whole life, and now you
run like a frightened little girl!" (I used to say "frightened little child" to be
politically correct, but the voice actually said "girl". (probably remembered from a
shaming father).

I don't remember much after I let go and slipped into the swirling. Whatever happened
disappeared beyond the edge of where memory has anything to hold. I do know that it was a
wrenching, tearing, rendering bloodiness, and once it had begun, there was no way to turn
back.

There was no longer a center of cognition where personal intent could arise. It was a
personal Armageddon. When I woke up, I wept and cried for two days. I couldn't find the
words and didn't have the heart to tell my beloved wife I was gone and wouldn’t be coming
back.

I knew that this was it.
I knew that this was what I had read about all those years.
This was Ramana's smile and Rumi's Shams.
This was Beatrice and Dulcinea lying in my arms.
There was no doubt and nowhere for doubt to arise.
The search came to a full stop.
The war was over, and peace fell like a soft spring rain.

On our way to the show, I watched Las Vegas flow softly through my mind, the people, a
little dog, grass, all green and such, and a tall black wrought iron fence.
I watched as our car slowly turned off Flamingo Drive onto Paradise.

(postmortem epilogue)
Nothing has changed since that morning.
The sublime emptiness is there when I go to bed at night and greets me like a playful
puppy in the morning.
There is always this sublime quiescence in the middle of the swirling mnemonic debris.
When I get sick, get upset or worried about anything, get angry, or when anxiety taps me
on the shoulder, it is right in the center of who I am.
It was there when I had my stroke and when my back spasmed.
It has become who I am.
What more could anybody want?




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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28571314 - 12/06/23 09:54 AM (1 month, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:

Why would you make a claim about something you have no evidence for? assuming a positive or a negative is not logical if you lack evidence

he notes two things about people who have shifted, first from the outside it doesn't look very different, second they typically don't talk about it. so its not surprising that you wouldn't have evidence, we are talking about shifts in someones internal experience, not shifts in their outward appearance.

there are resources where you may find evidence, however.




I actually do have personal experience which is a kind of evidence, and I am very thankful for the experience that I have had in this regard, and I do hope I am suitably humble in not repeating it very often as many spiritual types do. I will instead endeavor not to declare my personal experience other than to explain my understanding of brain function and practice for which I can demonstrate and share something of some value.

I have spent a fair bit of time with Ranpoche's, Bikkhu's, Roshi's and Anagarika's, as well as hundreds of practicing meditators; and I am aware of them generally exhibiting a much more "in-touch-with-the-moment" behavior and generally a calm (most of the time) presence, with a great deal of honest sensitivity and overall alertness, and openness. Not all of them equally, and not all the time for any of them.

Some, are so much more in tune with the moment that the air practically bristles with energy and it is not just charisma.

They have not been shifted into something different, this is them as themselves, but improved by serenity and refreshed daily by practice.

I have been very very close with some of them; that is what I know, and besides that I am a meditator for over 50 years myself - so I am familiar with this stuff in general.

In my opinion, the statements that the website you directed me to, are not reasonable declarations, while they probably do not offend religious organizations, and, they use traditional philosophical and new age tropes about non-dualism.

They do talk about real absorption states which they have renamed.

Thinking in a non-dual way is not a change in mental grammar and vocabulary, nor is it a change in wiring, it is more an aspect of experiencing an absorption state (which is still thinking albeit with frame stacking in place - technically extended thalamo-cortical feedback sequences) and this is always a temporary shift.

We cannot function properly over an extended period of time (like days)  with that kind of inebriation whether it is drug induced, or the product of concentration, or emotional impacts. It takes too much energy, and our neurons need to rest and recover.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28574485 - 12/08/23 02:23 PM (1 month, 19 days ago)

to me thought is always dual, as it always involves comparison, however the expressions of nonduality are as varied as personalities, and can include lots of thought

the expression depends on the person. some sing poetry, some work in hospice, some are completely hidden. The esteemed Nagarjuna had an extremely logical and detailed book on the nondual "middle" way. It would be a mistake to see the expressions of the non dual as the non dual.

also there are different types of experience that could be considered non dual. some could be functional, some not. for example in deep meditation the sense of self dissolving into infinity did not seem very functional. On the other hand, in a non concentrated state of mind the identity or self sponatenously disapeared. the body acted. a voice in the head would speak, but i wouldn't know what it would say. I wouldn't know what the body would do. All just sponataneous. That was very functional. It also felt extremely grounded and sober.

The pali cannon also differentiates between the jnanas and 4 stages which are shifts starting with stream entry and ending with arhatship. Each of these 4 shifts is described as clusters of phenomenon (for example disapearing fetters). there are fairly precise instructions for reaching the jnanas, but I'm not aware of that with stream entry and beyond - it seems that its just something that may happen after practicing for years.

the zen literature is also full of accounts of people who had persistent shifts after years of intense practice.

I also know teachers, roshis, abbots, and others with titles. I've noticed that the ammount of people claiming these shifts varies from community to community. the buddhist communities sometimes directly claim the shifts don't happen, or more often it seems, down play them significantly. the people I know that report expereinces that fit location 4 also frequently claim they went to buddhist teachers and the teachers had no clue about their experience. One 'community' where you can find a lot of people with these claims is the 'radical nonduality' community.

what do you think about depersonalization and derealization? the psychologists seem to be an agreement that long term shifts in the expreince of the self and world happen.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28574515 - 12/08/23 02:35 PM (1 month, 19 days ago)

I think you are using the wrong definition for thought and missing most of it's function.
thought is really any mental content,
anything you can be aware of,
anything that you can remember and recall.

True, some of it is verbal, and some verbal mental content has non-dual concepts attached to it. (associated with it).

however, concentration on the breath is also thought.  (do not be shocked, the same organs are in play).
anapanasati may be wordless, it may be dual nor non-dual.

so really mental content in the form of language or dialog, is not the only kind of mental content, dhyani, is all about mental content cultivation which you can be aware of, remember, recall, and expand, and it may or may not include words, and it may or may not be dual or nondual.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28574534 - 12/08/23 02:51 PM (1 month, 19 days ago)

the shifts you find in the pali canon are part of the foundation of the religion, not the practice.

there is a separate wisdom in religion, and that is political, - read crowd control!
therefore it makes sense in the large religious organization to canonize rank, and to assign it to something mysterious that meditating buddhist monks will avoid answering completely - because it is actually nonsense, to be honest a meditating buddhist monk would have to be vague, avoid the question completely, or begin asking you koans or play pranks with awareness to communicate fleetingness of experience and the lightness of enlightenment.

so, do you want to have religion?
if yes go with the canon, forget about what I am saying.

you have to follow your own nose to what you desire or require as the case may be.

I am not and was not looking for religion, in my study of buddhism, but I did find the seed of anapanasati there, and the original theories about abhidhamma revealing the seed of citta, AKA mind moments.

Also one of my Rinpoche teachers did a fine drawing of the stream of consciousness in which one citta links to the next and the next mind moment links to the one following it etc., and it was so simple and sublime it took me decades to understand what he meant.

I do not find everything in that religion of value for understanding mind, and psychology but these genius seeds were not obvious in other books while it was in some buddhist texts.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28574636 - 12/08/23 04:21 PM (1 month, 19 days ago)

I don't consider myself a buddhist.

i thought you were using appeals to authority to claim that non dual states are by definition persistant, so used the palli cannon to counter that.

my main reason for being open to the idea is i see no reason to doubt it. if you could come up with solid proof that its impossible, then I would agree with you. but to believe its not possible without any proof, well that seems like religious thinking to me. its also unhelpful.

i hold multiple models of reality. I don't see models as real. Its like a blueprint vs a building. we infer the blueprint from viewing the building, some of the blueprint we can acurately draw from observing the building, but we fill in or tend to imagine whats in the gaps. instead of forming one solid belief about the gap, i simply recognize i don't know and imagine multiple possibilities of what could be in that gap, and keep my eyes open for confirmation or denial of those possibilitites.

second is that i have close friends who have shared some of what its been like and how challenging it can be

third i have teachers who have shared some of their experiences

fourth i lived in a very intense practice community for years, and knew people who made similar claims

fifth I watch the conversations at various places like the buddha at the gas pump facebook page, reading those for years patterns appear. for example over and over again i see people saying they shifted and they found their true self, and others say they shifted and there is no true self. when they have a conversation and get into the details, lots of little details of what each persons life is like are shared, how they view self, time, reality, objects, causation, morality or meaning. the same themes come up over and over again, and some of the same struggles emerge over and over again.

sixth: depersonalization and derealization are persistent shifts to how self and world are perceived, which shows its possible to have very radical and long term shifts in the sense of self/world


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28574680 - 12/08/23 04:53 PM (1 month, 19 days ago)

OK, that's great.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28574743 - 12/08/23 05:52 PM (1 month, 19 days ago)

On the other hand, in a non concentrated state of mind the identity or self sponatenously disapeared. the body acted. a voice in the head would speak, but i wouldn't know what it would say. I wouldn't know what the body would do. All just sponataneous. That was very functional. It also felt extremely grounded and sober.

Nice description. I feel like this is what I’ve been doing at work.. I don’t need to think, to do.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Bardy]
    #28574767 - 12/08/23 06:09 PM (1 month, 19 days ago)

it sounds like a description of inebriation and loss of short term memory as well.

de-personalization and de-realization are also attributed to substance abuse.

I would not praise meditation for bringing on derealization and de personalization  or consider that those effects are only beneficial, nor would I imagine them to be persistent other than habituated and triggered to resume after doing something else. It is not evidence of status in some spiritual scheme of progress either.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28574886 - 12/08/23 07:49 PM (1 month, 19 days ago)

It’s not a loss of short term memory. I can still remember what I’m doing and move from task to task.

Depersonalisation does have some commonalities with this frame of mind, being that one’s perceived identity and self fade away (the self and our identities are just mental constructs anyway, so this is not surprising as they don’t exist outside of our minds). And this isn’t a bad thing, I very much enjoy it because I feel like I’ve suffered from being far too self conscious for too long.

The state of mind I’m talking about is actually a full attention to the present moment, so the part where Freedom says “non concentrated” I don’t resonate with.

And it isn’t derealisation, if anything it feels like you’re more in tune with what is real because your mind ideally isn’t getting wrapped up in thought loops and rabbit holes all the time. It’s not to say that I’m not thinking at all, thoughts do still come to me, but I practice letting them go as soon as possible when going about my work and am able to perform better without having any strong emotions that last more than a few seconds at most. This practice is nothing but beneficial to me.
———
If I have a moderate dose of caffeine I find this difficult. My mind races almost uncontrollably with a significant amount of caffeine.

The fact that Freedom is describing this as grounding and sober makes it sound nothing like depersonalisation or derealisation to me.
——

Also, I don’t think anyone here is claiming that this is evidence of status in some spiritual scheme. I’m not a part of any spiritual scheme, and no one need be a part of any such load of shit to practice training their minds like this. It’s simply something you do for your own well-being, same as lifting weights or running on a daily basis.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Bardy]
    #28575021 - 12/08/23 09:28 PM (1 month, 19 days ago)

OK so you are saying that one of the side effects you are experiencing is "depersonalization" or do you mean to convey that one of the side effects you are experiencing is "non-defensiveness", or a kind of serenity.

that is something that I find semi-related conceptually but actually fairly different, and I relate to that.

the defensiveness often drives us to get in our own way.

all the same it is not a permanent boon, loose the practice and we will stumble over our own feet again.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28575199 - 12/09/23 12:16 AM (1 month, 19 days ago)

Yeah. Definitely not experiencing depersonalisation but some of the experience, notably the losing of the identity and self, are similar - (I’ve never experienced depersonalisation I don’t think, so I’m only comparing the description on Wikipedia to my experience being mindful while working).

And yes, there is a non-defensiveness to it in the sense that I don’t feel guarded. An example would be that if someone said something to me that came off as a bit aggressive when I wasn’t being mindful then I’d probably bite back or stew on it for half the day… when I’m being mindful I can basically recognise that it is just a noise that comes and goes, and that it isn’t a threat to me. If I start to react negatively then I can observe this pattern of thought and have it evaporate. Then draw my attention back to my breath, then to whatever task I’m doing. Being able to do this feels very freeing, and it is often accompanied by a sense of tranquility if I pull it off well.

I think that you’re right that defensiveness drives us to get in our own way, but I also think that all patterns of thought do this when they’re reiterated too many times? Maybe.. feels right to me.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28575202 - 12/09/23 12:22 AM (1 month, 19 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
it sounds like a description of inebriation and loss of short term memory as well.

de-personalization and de-realization are also attributed to substance abuse.

I would not praise meditation for bringing on derealization and de personalization  or consider that those effects are only beneficial, nor would I imagine them to be persistent other than habituated and triggered to resume after doing something else. It is not evidence of status in some spiritual scheme of progress either.




the mention of derealizatino/dersonalization was simply evidence that long term fundamental changes to perception of the world and self are possible. I am not arguing those are the same as the changes reported in various spiritual communities.

what part sounds like inebriation?

it seemed to me to be the opposite of inebriation. it became very simple. just being, just breathing, just eating, just going on a zoom meeting... it felt very normal except for the non identification


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