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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Pinkerton]
    #28571021 - 12/06/23 06:33 AM (1 month, 22 days ago)

you are free


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28571030 - 12/06/23 06:38 AM (1 month, 22 days ago)

As long as I have intrusive/racing thoughts I am not free. :shrug:


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28571083 - 12/06/23 07:14 AM (1 month, 22 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I'll check it out and report here, am a bit side tracked today




me too if only we could meditate more to find our center sooner not you you already found your center

the side tracked makes us do worse

but I still managed 2 x 45 min. of meditation


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Ferdinando]
    #28571145 - 12/06/23 07:53 AM (1 month, 22 days ago)

dude I find it and lose it 10 times per day
that is the way


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28571154 - 12/06/23 07:57 AM (1 month, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Pinkerton said:
As long as I have intrusive/racing thoughts I am not free. :shrug:




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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Pinkerton]
    #28571158 - 12/06/23 08:00 AM (1 month, 22 days ago)

Dude, counter restlessness with breathing.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28571222 - 12/06/23 08:37 AM (1 month, 22 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Layers like resonant mental states or jhanas
But location flat out untrue
No evidence of it.
Normal consciousness is normal





why would you make a claim about something you have no evidence for? assuming a positive or a negative is not logical if you lack evidence

he notes two things about people who have shifted, first from the outside it doesn't look very different, second they typically don't talk about it. so its not surprising that you wouldn't have evidence, we are talking about shifts in someones internal experience, not shifts in their outward appearance.

there are resources where you may find evidence, however.

here is some evidence written by someone outside the buddhist tradition who writes in her own unique way (from  This Terrible Love Blog,

Quote:

A surprising number of people write me wanting to know how life is seen, how the world of apparent people and events looks to me. They’ve heard various speakers say that there is simply "no one" there, that everything that appears has no meaning, and even the judgments of good and bad no longer apply. It often sounds very detached, and speakers seem like they have a rule prohibiting them from discussing their direct perceptions and speaking to their audience as intimates.

So there’s a lot of “no one” and “nothing” language, as in "life is happening for no one" or "life happens, but is impersonal." From messages I receive, it seems that when sages speak this way, seekers imagine some detached observer sitting aloof from the swirling kaleidoscope of life, watching it all from a kind of void-like state.

I doubt very much that is how life seems to nonduality speakers, and certainly it’s not like that at all for this Miranda thingie. So I will try to address the many questions that ask how life seems if there is no meaning or separation.

I should begin by saying that nothing that appears ever seems caused, so in the world of seeming others---in so-called “person” or in the mediated forms we call internet or TV--- everything people do and say seems like something out of an outlandish Sci-Fi or fantasy film.

Nothing having meaning is hard to explain, but imagine you woke up one seeming day and everyone was debating the state of basket weaving in every country. Nations went to war over basket weaving, news stories centered on basket weaving, and basket weavers were the most revered people on Earth.
Or that marriages consisted of exactly 5 people--- two men, two women, and one nonbinary person, and any deviation from that was considered abnormal and even immoral. Or that people went nude everywhere, and those who wore clothes were ridiculed and in some countries stoned to death. Except for fingers, which were considered blasphemy to show, so everyone always wore gloves, and if you went glove-less the police would chop off your hands. And most people believed that chipmunks were gods who created the world and sent messages to the chipmunk popes who were the human religious authorities in each land.

That's how political, social, spiritual and moral "issues" of "society" seem, rooted as they are in the myth of separation.

When people talk of their “identity” and mention some imaginary category of human (which is already an imaginary category), whether nationality or race or religion, it sounds, as my friend Lynn says, like someone is saying, “I am an eggplant and I am proud of that, it defines me and eggplant culture must be heard.” Or: “My people are a bowl of soup! Soup people, that’s what we are!”

As Nancy once wrote, "The running commentary is not believed. There is no solidity to the thought stream. It's all even and equal... whether it is someone talking about purple unicorns on the moon or politics or whether it will rain on Tuesday. It has no meaning nor non meaning like the tree tops dancing in the wind."

There is simply nothing that appears that makes the slightest bit of logical sense, as the very concepts of some "thing" and "logic" and "sense" are absent.

It’s an Alice in Wonderland world:

“I don’t want to go among mad people,” Alice remarked.
“Oh, you can’t help that,” said the Cat. “We’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad.”
“How do you know I’m mad?” said Alice.
“You must be,” said the Cat, “or you wouldn’t have come here.”

The world that appears is a surreal carnival where no action seems to happen in relation to any other, and the appearance of continuity is as illusory as trying to find fixed variables for subatomic particles. Kaleidoscopic is my favorite term to describe it, as any pattern that appears soon seems to dissolve into another, and yet there is never any movement from, to, or back and forth or forward in time or space, as they are also only the shifting web of imaginary named patterns.

What is seen is indecipherable, as all words are like baby talk with a baby pointing this way or that. I suppose that is why some say this is nothing appearing as everything, as there is no place or source from which anything can be seen to arise or fall back into.

I do resonate with speakers who say nothing is personal, yet I would also say that everything is stunningly intimate. My family is right when they say I feel no deeper connection to them than to anyone else. I can look at a photo of my brother’s child, but it doesn’t seem like “my” nephew. I simply see a smiling human and I smile myself. But if someone online posts a picture of their child smiling, the intimacy felt is exactly the same.

I can relate to Byron Katie saying, when they told her that her family was there to see her after her awakening, that she expected to see little children and was surprised to see adults. If you say you’re my family, wonderful. Whoever you are, you are all my family, any appearing human as much as any other.

Everyone I see, in any apparent instant of perception, is my most intimate family member, from someone online to someone walking in the woods to the man who threatened to kill me. All are my lovers, all the beloved. Yet all who appear seem no more like actual separate individuals than characters in a nighttime dream.

When you write me, and I read your words, it always feels as if I am writing them. We are characters dreamed by life, but that is simply a way of trying to make it sound like what is going on is knowable, when all these analogies and descriptions are also part of a surreal carnival that makes no sense whatsoever.

And even that is one more fairy tale, as there is not even any center from which this writing seems to appear. Who is writing, what is writing, and what these words are and where they come from is impossible to answer. If thoughts come up about it and don’t go away, the neural pathways in my candy apple brain will start to short circuit and catch fire and my head will explode. That’s my theory, anyway.

The happy part, for this deranged Miranda thingie, is that there is no one here who gives a whit about what seems to happen or does not. No one who is looking for meaning or non-meaning; just a child playing in the grass and blowing dandelions in the wind. When people say they love me or hate me, it’s wonderful that there is no difference. It’s just like heavy metal and Mozart, and both are beautiful. And even beauty is made up.

And this sounds truly awful to some, because it includes all the things you love and all the things you fear; the things you call babies smiling and nuclear war, tender kisses and mass shootings, volcanoes and hurricanes and languid sunny days, playing on the beach and drowning in a tsunami.

All are loved, and yet none of those things seem like true descriptions as they are all imaginary separate movements in an inseparable dance where no one can even find a dancer. All these names and concepts about what appears are like looking at clouds and seeing shapes and naming them, which is all the entire world we seem to share consists of: names written on cloud shapes, blowing across an empty sky.

Alice said, “If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn’t. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn’t be. And what it wouldn’t be, it would. You see?”

Yes, I do indeed, Alice!

Aoetl, (always only ever this love),

...The Miranda Thingie... (words spilling out into in the middle of an apparent night in wonderland) đź’“




Edited by Freedom (12/06/23 08:57 AM)


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28571256 - 12/06/23 09:05 AM (1 month, 22 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Dude, counter restlessness with breathing.




or a calming anchor. the body can be difficult place to start with if the there is trauma or even a back log of repressed feelings, which most people have. the hands and feet tend to a safe place to start if breath practice makes things worse. I know some people that started with sound as an anchor as they had too much trauma in the body


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28571307 - 12/06/23 09:41 AM (1 month, 22 days ago)

here's another one, sounds genuine to me

Quote:


Michael Markham My story:
As a child, I would ride my horse North of the ranch, lay on the sagebrush flats,
watch the clouds, and wonder what the hell was going on.

Wyoming was a hunting, drinking, and fighting world then, no place for introverted little
boys.

The first photograph I remember, I was sitting on my dad's half-crazy dapple gray with
a cowboy hat and a Coors beer in my hand. I was two years old.

Jackson had a bar on every corner, and I became familiar with them all as the years
passed. Over the next ten years, I became an expert. Drinking took over and almost
destroyed my life.

They say nurses and teachers love cowboys, but I don't remember much. Sometimes I wish I
could. Sometimes I'm glad I don't. I married my high school sweetheart, had a beautiful
baby boy, and had a successful business.

Life was good, and I continued to drink a lot.

My parents died early from drinking, and I came close to following their example. With a
little help from like-minded people, I slowly found my way back to sanity, and I suppose
that right along there, someplace, my spiritual journey began.

My life seemed a little out of sync for as long as I can remember. Nothing seemed to
match up. Growing up, I attended nine different schools, and friends were never a
priority. Alcohol seemed to soothe that a little, but fear and pain always returned,
sometimes with friends.

The first book I remember picking up was "The Golden Bough: A Study in Comparative
Religion". What followed was a compulsive search for the one book that held the secret of
secrets. I exhausted the New Age section, switched back and forth between the Religion
and Philosophy sections, and dabbled in the Poetry shelves. I read everything I could
find in the Eastern Religion area and eventually settled on Advaita as my chosen path.
If you name an author remotely related to Advaita I have read everything they ever wrote.
If there was a teacher within reach.....I would reach out to them. Not for a moment did
the search for personal relevance let up.

I played with out-of-body experiences and lucid dreaming for ten years and was convinced
that I could push my way through walls and travel in outer space. I had some experiences
that would shock even you.

I kept notes, underlined and dog-eared books, and I wrote in the margins. I wore out two
copies of A Course In Miracles and took the year-long exercises twice, I read the
Ashtavakra Gita three times. I checked out Scientology and read any channeled books I
could find. I really like Seth and Jane Roberts. I loved Don Juan and tried the "power
walk" without shin guards. I even read a Shirley MacLaine book. Books and manuscripts
completely filled two sides of my two-car garage. I traveled to sit with teachers and
attended Non-Dual seminars.

Even now, when I see an Amazon box, I get a little shot of adrenaline.

And then, that night in Las Vegas.

My wife and I attended a wholesale clothing show in Las Vegas twice a year. We usually
stayed at the Hilton.

Here the search had become my constant companion, and as usual, as I was drifting off to
sleep, I was pondering the essential emptiness of all things. Intellectually, I had
understood for many years that things themselves had no actual existential reality.
I knew that there were no such things as "mountains" or "rivers" or the state of "Texas,”
and as I started to slip into my evening dreamtime, came the thought:
"If there are no such things as things, what does that say about the holder of things?"
Everything started to spin, and I could not find my center.
Immediately I was gripped by an intense panic and tried to push the thought away. Another thought came:
"You little chicken shit, you have yearned for this moment your whole life, and now you
run like a frightened little girl!" (I used to say "frightened little child" to be
politically correct, but the voice actually said "girl". (probably remembered from a
shaming father).

I don't remember much after I let go and slipped into the swirling. Whatever happened
disappeared beyond the edge of where memory has anything to hold. I do know that it was a
wrenching, tearing, rendering bloodiness, and once it had begun, there was no way to turn
back.

There was no longer a center of cognition where personal intent could arise. It was a
personal Armageddon. When I woke up, I wept and cried for two days. I couldn't find the
words and didn't have the heart to tell my beloved wife I was gone and wouldn’t be coming
back.

I knew that this was it.
I knew that this was what I had read about all those years.
This was Ramana's smile and Rumi's Shams.
This was Beatrice and Dulcinea lying in my arms.
There was no doubt and nowhere for doubt to arise.
The search came to a full stop.
The war was over, and peace fell like a soft spring rain.

On our way to the show, I watched Las Vegas flow softly through my mind, the people, a
little dog, grass, all green and such, and a tall black wrought iron fence.
I watched as our car slowly turned off Flamingo Drive onto Paradise.

(postmortem epilogue)
Nothing has changed since that morning.
The sublime emptiness is there when I go to bed at night and greets me like a playful
puppy in the morning.
There is always this sublime quiescence in the middle of the swirling mnemonic debris.
When I get sick, get upset or worried about anything, get angry, or when anxiety taps me
on the shoulder, it is right in the center of who I am.
It was there when I had my stroke and when my back spasmed.
It has become who I am.
What more could anybody want?




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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28571314 - 12/06/23 09:54 AM (1 month, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:

Why would you make a claim about something you have no evidence for? assuming a positive or a negative is not logical if you lack evidence

he notes two things about people who have shifted, first from the outside it doesn't look very different, second they typically don't talk about it. so its not surprising that you wouldn't have evidence, we are talking about shifts in someones internal experience, not shifts in their outward appearance.

there are resources where you may find evidence, however.




I actually do have personal experience which is a kind of evidence, and I am very thankful for the experience that I have had in this regard, and I do hope I am suitably humble in not repeating it very often as many spiritual types do. I will instead endeavor not to declare my personal experience other than to explain my understanding of brain function and practice for which I can demonstrate and share something of some value.

I have spent a fair bit of time with Ranpoche's, Bikkhu's, Roshi's and Anagarika's, as well as hundreds of practicing meditators; and I am aware of them generally exhibiting a much more "in-touch-with-the-moment" behavior and generally a calm (most of the time) presence, with a great deal of honest sensitivity and overall alertness, and openness. Not all of them equally, and not all the time for any of them.

Some, are so much more in tune with the moment that the air practically bristles with energy and it is not just charisma.

They have not been shifted into something different, this is them as themselves, but improved by serenity and refreshed daily by practice.

I have been very very close with some of them; that is what I know, and besides that I am a meditator for over 50 years myself - so I am familiar with this stuff in general.

In my opinion, the statements that the website you directed me to, are not reasonable declarations, while they probably do not offend religious organizations, and, they use traditional philosophical and new age tropes about non-dualism.

They do talk about real absorption states which they have renamed.

Thinking in a non-dual way is not a change in mental grammar and vocabulary, nor is it a change in wiring, it is more an aspect of experiencing an absorption state (which is still thinking albeit with frame stacking in place - technically extended thalamo-cortical feedback sequences) and this is always a temporary shift.

We cannot function properly over an extended period of time (like days)  with that kind of inebriation whether it is drug induced, or the product of concentration, or emotional impacts. It takes too much energy, and our neurons need to rest and recover.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28574485 - 12/08/23 02:23 PM (1 month, 19 days ago)

to me thought is always dual, as it always involves comparison, however the expressions of nonduality are as varied as personalities, and can include lots of thought

the expression depends on the person. some sing poetry, some work in hospice, some are completely hidden. The esteemed Nagarjuna had an extremely logical and detailed book on the nondual "middle" way. It would be a mistake to see the expressions of the non dual as the non dual.

also there are different types of experience that could be considered non dual. some could be functional, some not. for example in deep meditation the sense of self dissolving into infinity did not seem very functional. On the other hand, in a non concentrated state of mind the identity or self sponatenously disapeared. the body acted. a voice in the head would speak, but i wouldn't know what it would say. I wouldn't know what the body would do. All just sponataneous. That was very functional. It also felt extremely grounded and sober.

The pali cannon also differentiates between the jnanas and 4 stages which are shifts starting with stream entry and ending with arhatship. Each of these 4 shifts is described as clusters of phenomenon (for example disapearing fetters). there are fairly precise instructions for reaching the jnanas, but I'm not aware of that with stream entry and beyond - it seems that its just something that may happen after practicing for years.

the zen literature is also full of accounts of people who had persistent shifts after years of intense practice.

I also know teachers, roshis, abbots, and others with titles. I've noticed that the ammount of people claiming these shifts varies from community to community. the buddhist communities sometimes directly claim the shifts don't happen, or more often it seems, down play them significantly. the people I know that report expereinces that fit location 4 also frequently claim they went to buddhist teachers and the teachers had no clue about their experience. One 'community' where you can find a lot of people with these claims is the 'radical nonduality' community.

what do you think about depersonalization and derealization? the psychologists seem to be an agreement that long term shifts in the expreince of the self and world happen.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28574515 - 12/08/23 02:35 PM (1 month, 19 days ago)

I think you are using the wrong definition for thought and missing most of it's function.
thought is really any mental content,
anything you can be aware of,
anything that you can remember and recall.

True, some of it is verbal, and some verbal mental content has non-dual concepts attached to it. (associated with it).

however, concentration on the breath is also thought.  (do not be shocked, the same organs are in play).
anapanasati may be wordless, it may be dual nor non-dual.

so really mental content in the form of language or dialog, is not the only kind of mental content, dhyani, is all about mental content cultivation which you can be aware of, remember, recall, and expand, and it may or may not include words, and it may or may not be dual or nondual.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28574534 - 12/08/23 02:51 PM (1 month, 19 days ago)

the shifts you find in the pali canon are part of the foundation of the religion, not the practice.

there is a separate wisdom in religion, and that is political, - read crowd control!
therefore it makes sense in the large religious organization to canonize rank, and to assign it to something mysterious that meditating buddhist monks will avoid answering completely - because it is actually nonsense, to be honest a meditating buddhist monk would have to be vague, avoid the question completely, or begin asking you koans or play pranks with awareness to communicate fleetingness of experience and the lightness of enlightenment.

so, do you want to have religion?
if yes go with the canon, forget about what I am saying.

you have to follow your own nose to what you desire or require as the case may be.

I am not and was not looking for religion, in my study of buddhism, but I did find the seed of anapanasati there, and the original theories about abhidhamma revealing the seed of citta, AKA mind moments.

Also one of my Rinpoche teachers did a fine drawing of the stream of consciousness in which one citta links to the next and the next mind moment links to the one following it etc., and it was so simple and sublime it took me decades to understand what he meant.

I do not find everything in that religion of value for understanding mind, and psychology but these genius seeds were not obvious in other books while it was in some buddhist texts.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28574636 - 12/08/23 04:21 PM (1 month, 19 days ago)

I don't consider myself a buddhist.

i thought you were using appeals to authority to claim that non dual states are by definition persistant, so used the palli cannon to counter that.

my main reason for being open to the idea is i see no reason to doubt it. if you could come up with solid proof that its impossible, then I would agree with you. but to believe its not possible without any proof, well that seems like religious thinking to me. its also unhelpful.

i hold multiple models of reality. I don't see models as real. Its like a blueprint vs a building. we infer the blueprint from viewing the building, some of the blueprint we can acurately draw from observing the building, but we fill in or tend to imagine whats in the gaps. instead of forming one solid belief about the gap, i simply recognize i don't know and imagine multiple possibilities of what could be in that gap, and keep my eyes open for confirmation or denial of those possibilitites.

second is that i have close friends who have shared some of what its been like and how challenging it can be

third i have teachers who have shared some of their experiences

fourth i lived in a very intense practice community for years, and knew people who made similar claims

fifth I watch the conversations at various places like the buddha at the gas pump facebook page, reading those for years patterns appear. for example over and over again i see people saying they shifted and they found their true self, and others say they shifted and there is no true self. when they have a conversation and get into the details, lots of little details of what each persons life is like are shared, how they view self, time, reality, objects, causation, morality or meaning. the same themes come up over and over again, and some of the same struggles emerge over and over again.

sixth: depersonalization and derealization are persistent shifts to how self and world are perceived, which shows its possible to have very radical and long term shifts in the sense of self/world


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28574680 - 12/08/23 04:53 PM (1 month, 19 days ago)

OK, that's great.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28574743 - 12/08/23 05:52 PM (1 month, 19 days ago)

On the other hand, in a non concentrated state of mind the identity or self sponatenously disapeared. the body acted. a voice in the head would speak, but i wouldn't know what it would say. I wouldn't know what the body would do. All just sponataneous. That was very functional. It also felt extremely grounded and sober.

Nice description. I feel like this is what I’ve been doing at work.. I don’t need to think, to do.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Bardy]
    #28574767 - 12/08/23 06:09 PM (1 month, 19 days ago)

it sounds like a description of inebriation and loss of short term memory as well.

de-personalization and de-realization are also attributed to substance abuse.

I would not praise meditation for bringing on derealization and de personalization  or consider that those effects are only beneficial, nor would I imagine them to be persistent other than habituated and triggered to resume after doing something else. It is not evidence of status in some spiritual scheme of progress either.


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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28574886 - 12/08/23 07:49 PM (1 month, 19 days ago)

It’s not a loss of short term memory. I can still remember what I’m doing and move from task to task.

Depersonalisation does have some commonalities with this frame of mind, being that one’s perceived identity and self fade away (the self and our identities are just mental constructs anyway, so this is not surprising as they don’t exist outside of our minds). And this isn’t a bad thing, I very much enjoy it because I feel like I’ve suffered from being far too self conscious for too long.

The state of mind I’m talking about is actually a full attention to the present moment, so the part where Freedom says “non concentrated” I don’t resonate with.

And it isn’t derealisation, if anything it feels like you’re more in tune with what is real because your mind ideally isn’t getting wrapped up in thought loops and rabbit holes all the time. It’s not to say that I’m not thinking at all, thoughts do still come to me, but I practice letting them go as soon as possible when going about my work and am able to perform better without having any strong emotions that last more than a few seconds at most. This practice is nothing but beneficial to me.
———
If I have a moderate dose of caffeine I find this difficult. My mind races almost uncontrollably with a significant amount of caffeine.

The fact that Freedom is describing this as grounding and sober makes it sound nothing like depersonalisation or derealisation to me.
——

Also, I don’t think anyone here is claiming that this is evidence of status in some spiritual scheme. I’m not a part of any spiritual scheme, and no one need be a part of any such load of shit to practice training their minds like this. It’s simply something you do for your own well-being, same as lifting weights or running on a daily basis.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Bardy]
    #28575021 - 12/08/23 09:28 PM (1 month, 19 days ago)

OK so you are saying that one of the side effects you are experiencing is "depersonalization" or do you mean to convey that one of the side effects you are experiencing is "non-defensiveness", or a kind of serenity.

that is something that I find semi-related conceptually but actually fairly different, and I relate to that.

the defensiveness often drives us to get in our own way.

all the same it is not a permanent boon, loose the practice and we will stumble over our own feet again.


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OfflineBardy
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28575199 - 12/09/23 12:16 AM (1 month, 19 days ago)

Yeah. Definitely not experiencing depersonalisation but some of the experience, notably the losing of the identity and self, are similar - (I’ve never experienced depersonalisation I don’t think, so I’m only comparing the description on Wikipedia to my experience being mindful while working).

And yes, there is a non-defensiveness to it in the sense that I don’t feel guarded. An example would be that if someone said something to me that came off as a bit aggressive when I wasn’t being mindful then I’d probably bite back or stew on it for half the day… when I’m being mindful I can basically recognise that it is just a noise that comes and goes, and that it isn’t a threat to me. If I start to react negatively then I can observe this pattern of thought and have it evaporate. Then draw my attention back to my breath, then to whatever task I’m doing. Being able to do this feels very freeing, and it is often accompanied by a sense of tranquility if I pull it off well.

I think that you’re right that defensiveness drives us to get in our own way, but I also think that all patterns of thought do this when they’re reiterated too many times? Maybe.. feels right to me.


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