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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,850
Last seen: 33 minutes, 14 seconds
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I appreciate his work, bringing a scientific secular approach to spiritual practice.
his initial paper was about the persistent shifts (locations) and was full of interesting information. he studied people who reported having what he calls "persistant non symbolic experience", and found four clusters that he called locations.
Quote:
Abstract: Persistent forms of nondual awareness, enlightenment, mystical experience, and so forth (Persistent Non-Symbolic Experience) have been reported since antiquity. Though sporadic research has been performed on these experiences, the scientific literature has yet to report a large-scale cognitive psychology study of this population. Method: Assessment of the subjective experience of 319 adult participants reporting persistent non-symbolic experience was undertaken using 6-12 hour semi-structured interviews and evaluated using grounded theory and thematic analysis. Results: Five core, consistent categories of change were uncovered: sense-of-self, cognition, affect, perception, and memory. Participants’ reports formed phenomenological groups in which the types of change in each of these categories were consistent. Multiple groupings were uncovered that formed a range of composite experiences. The variety of these experiences and their underlying categories may inform the debate between constructivist, common core, and participatory theorists.
https://digitalcommons.ciis.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1031&context=conscjournal
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,850
Last seen: 33 minutes, 14 seconds
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
#28569596 - 12/05/23 09:40 AM (1 month, 23 days ago) |
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if you're interesting here is a page to links where he goes into a lot of detail on the locations and layers: https://www.nonsymbolic.org/finders/
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
#28569661 - 12/05/23 10:21 AM (1 month, 23 days ago) |
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I'll check it out and report here, am a bit side tracked today
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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OK - I had a quick look and took their survey and was pleased to see that I have temporary well being.
oddly none of their questions are meditation practice oriented, and their assessments are not related to anything concrete on the face of it.
Several of their survey questions relate to aspects of the divine which I could not in all honesty answer as they are put forth.
I am not their market, they are marketing something and it is not just clear information, it is belonging, like belonging to a cult.
I will take a step back from further exploration of Jeffery's group as I find them idiosyncratic.
Certainly you can gain benefit from any form of meditation that you practice, but I do not feel like trying to make more sense out of the reams of text they produce while establishing the merits of their jargony construct of what mind, and well being entails.
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,127
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Do you have me on ignore, RGV's?
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,850
Last seen: 33 minutes, 14 seconds
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can the ideas not stand on theQuote:
redgreenvines said: OK - I had a quick look and took their survey and was pleased to see that I have temporary well being.
oddly none of their questions are meditation practice oriented, and their assessments are not related to anything concrete on the face of it.
Several of their survey questions relate to aspects of the divine which I could not in all honesty answer as they are put forth.
I am not their market, they are marketing something and it is not just clear information, it is belonging, like belonging to a cult.
I will take a step back from further exploration of Jeffery's group as I find them idiosyncratic.
Certainly you can gain benefit from any form of meditation that you practice, but I do not feel like trying to make more sense out of the reams of text they produce while establishing the merits of their jargony construct of what mind, and well being entails.
Its like you were on one of those game shows with 3 doors and you get to open one of them:
Door number 1) a silly survey
Door number 2) bad marketing vibes
Door number 3) a resurch paper and related commentary (the door the audiance was pointing too :p)
I'm not suprised you didn't find anything valuable behind doors 1 and 2
personally i get a used car salesman vibe, but that thats not the part I find interesting
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Pinkerton]
#28569996 - 12/05/23 02:10 PM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Pinkerton said: Do you have me on ignore, RGV's? 
what?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
#28570001 - 12/05/23 02:15 PM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said:
Door number 3) a resurch paper and related commentary (the door the audiance was pointing too :p)
I do not see the research paper you mean, if you have an explicit link please send it, there are about a hundred links in the research section that are not research even though the list is predicated as peer reviewed research.
anyway peer reviewed research can also be flawed, but what I see good is that it is meditation you are doing inspired by whomever and you are getting some results.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,850
Last seen: 33 minutes, 14 seconds
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
#28570010 - 12/05/23 02:20 PM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,127
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
Pinkerton said: Do you have me on ignore, RGV's? 
what?
Oh, I thought you ignored me.
Yay!   
I get more and more "messages" we are about to win it.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
#28570048 - 12/05/23 02:48 PM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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well, it's a paper, one that can stand on it's own in the philosophy of mind stage, but I am not comfortable with the work behind it or with the theory, each time I look again I am more uncomfortable with anything they say past layer 2, which makes me question all of it.
All of it seems anecdotal. I thought they might report statistically and graphically but really they are just self promoting their framework.
that's how I see it.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,850
Last seen: 33 minutes, 14 seconds
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its rare to find someone in location 1 or 2, even more rare in 3 or 4. those that are in 3 or 4 typically don't go around talking about it. There are communities where people report the types of phenomena mentioned in locations 3 and 4. location 4 especially stands out to me because its always the same pattern, the person reports no seperate self, no agency, no , no time, no things and no causation. People also report this happening all at once, like suddenly they saw the world differently and this shift became long term.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
#28570210 - 12/05/23 04:53 PM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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I see this kind of thing fairly traditionally, like jhana states, and as such they are impermanent, they are not like levels of healthy mental existence.
I think the group is playing on peoples insecurities by identifying people as being at levels.
All people go to all the levels, and some go fairly purposedly and frequently and sometimes get the benefits of returning to some of these levels temporarily during zazen.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,850
Last seen: 33 minutes, 14 seconds
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the janna states correspond more to what he calls levels, which are layers of the mind operating simultaneously. the locations are peristant shifts in experience. he writes they chose the word "location" in an attempt to avoid people projecting value judgements...
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
#28570498 - 12/05/23 07:40 PM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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I think they are sort of close with layers but really far on location.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,850
Last seen: 33 minutes, 14 seconds
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how so?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
#28570784 - 12/05/23 10:39 PM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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Layers like resonant mental states or jhanas But location flat out untrue No evidence of it. Normal consciousness is normal
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,127
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Normal consciousness is normal
How para is consciously paranormal?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Pinkerton]
#28570965 - 12/06/23 05:51 AM (1 month, 22 days ago) |
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good point, I was tired and should not post inferior content, shame on me.
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,127
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I am daydreaming about airport lounges and flights...
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