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OfflineKickleM
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28567119 - 12/03/23 05:34 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
so you're saying you don't understand what I'm saying, and instead of ignoring it or trying to understand it, you're associating it with something else and then imagining that association invalidates as "just thoughts"?




Nope. My original post was about my experience of people and had nothing to do with you specifically. The follow up was my way of saying I don't know enough about you to make any such claims. I'm not in your shoes. So I don't know what you're saying, no. At best I can relate through my own experiences. Which is what I did.

Take it or leave it

If you think you can give me an experience to relate to this differently feel free :cheers:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Bardy]
    #28567192 - 12/03/23 05:57 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Bardy said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
you can let a thing fall from your hand, but how can you do that in your mind except by diverting the attention to the overall nature of mind

With practice. There are many traditions which emphasize the importance of practice, and few which jump to the conclusion of practice.

I heard a psychiatrist look at sand mandalas in an interesting way. He described them in his view as a way to practice extreme effort, attention to detail, focus, etc. while knowing it will be destroyed upon completion. Practicing not letting this knowledge of impending destruction prevent the effort, the attention and focus.

One can say, ah, I get it. But that does not mean they could create such a sand mandala, nor that they would destroy their efforts freely. Such "I get it" moments are not akin to the fruit of practice.




I agree with this 100%. I think playing music is similar in a way. It is only there while you’re playing, and then it is not.

I don’t think I totally understand what you mean by is space a matter of degree… but I’d say I am always the space, it’s just whether or not I’m paying attention.

The language around this stuff can get really confusing lol




If you're always the space and space encapsulates everything, how could you not pay attention to it? What are you paying attention to that is somehow outside the bounds?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28567200 - 12/03/23 05:59 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

oh ok I was trying to link what you were saying to what I was.

its pretty easy, but you just have to be able to drop your conceptual overlay a little.

just feel your hand. its really that easy. start with a finger tip. take a moment, put all your attention into the fingertip and notice how the sensation changes. be patient its slow, but as you keep your attention in the same place you'll notice changes. can you feel the buzzing in it? then feel your whole hand. feel all the buzzing sensations at once.

then within all that buzzing simply notice the sensation of space. the hand is full of space. its like space full of scintilating microscopic sensations. if thats clear notice how the space within the hand isn't seperate from the space outside the hand. thats it. its very simple. it can take a few minutes to build up enough concentration.

Another, perhaps more difficult step, If you open the whole body and all the senses to space and there is no longer a distinction between inside and outside, the weight of the self slips away. if you see this it wont matter what anyone has told you about it, or what you think about people who make claims. You will see exactly for yourself. and if you can function in the world without that weight, then you will see exactly how that is, and it won't matter what you think about hippies who talk about attachment or whatever.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28567247 - 12/03/23 06:23 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
...

If you're always the space and space encapsulates everything, how could you not pay attention to it? What are you paying attention to that is somehow outside the bounds?



so you mean the space is the totality of active mental contents.
that really would be vipassana

no matter how hard anyone tries to jump into the vipassana meditation recipe, they must pass through samatha first, calming - it just works like that.

also if one intends to just do samatha, it turns into vipassana eventually, it just does.


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OfflineBardy
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28567606 - 12/03/23 10:14 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

“A man is struck in the chest with a poison arrow, and a surgeon rushes to his side to begin the work of saving his life. But the man resists. He first wants to know the name of the fletcher who fashioned the arrow’s shaft, and the type of wood from which it was cut, and the motive of the man who shot it, and the name of the horse on which he rode; and a thousand other things that have no bearing at all upon his present suffering or ultimate survival.

So this man needs to get his priorities straight. His commitment to thinking about the world results from a basic misunderstanding of his predicament. And though we may be only dimly aware of it, we too have problems that will not be solved by more thinking.”

An excerpt from a podcast on the Waking Up app where Sam talks about a Buddhist parable. Really struck a chord with me.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28567875 - 12/04/23 07:01 AM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
If thats clear notice how the space within the hand isn't seperate from the space outside the hand. thats it.




It seems to me that to see something as not separate, one would need to see it as separate first. And if one can see it as separate, then what IYO makes this less true/valuable?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28567879 - 12/04/23 07:06 AM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
...

If you're always the space and space encapsulates everything, how could you not pay attention to it? What are you paying attention to that is somehow outside the bounds?



so you mean the space is the totality of active mental contents.
that really would be vipassana

no matter how hard anyone tries to jump into the vipassana meditation recipe, they must pass through samatha first, calming - it just works like that.

also if one intends to just do samatha, it turns into vipassana eventually, it just does.




For me it's closer to utilizing the ability to reason than settling on any particular state of mind. The Mulamadhyamakakarika does a good job of using reasoning to disavow many unreasonable views that arise from Buddhist and Hindu teachings which get rehashed over and over again.

Asking reasonable questions is, well, reasonable in my estimation. If there is no reasonable answer then perhaps the view is unreasonable.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28567931 - 12/04/23 08:02 AM (1 month, 24 days ago)

that's true, not all Buddhist monks are meditating monks, they may chant with the sangha, and then study and think and discuss sutras.
Occasionally ratiocination, (thinking) like chanting, provides a form of samatha, or peacefulness. Similarly, in the Tibetan schools, texts and visual objects become revered instead of learning anapanasati. You could say that through the door of the intellect these people practice their religion and obtain benefit of it.
I would equate that with prayers and putting on phylacteries.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28567936 - 12/04/23 08:04 AM (1 month, 24 days ago)

If the human mind is impermanent, best to make use of it while it's here. That's my take.

My grandpa passed on the saying: make hay while the sun is shining


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28567952 - 12/04/23 08:24 AM (1 month, 24 days ago)

yes, do good while you can do


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle] * 2
    #28568033 - 12/04/23 09:41 AM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
If thats clear notice how the space within the hand isn't seperate from the space outside the hand. thats it.




It seems to me that to see something as not separate, one would need to see it as separate first. And if one can see it as separate, then what IYO makes this less true/valuable?




I was responding to this,
Quote:

If you think you can give me an experience to relate to this differently feel free :cheers:




and yeah what I said starts from the perspective of duality.

the way I see it is these are just perspectives. shifts of perception. removing  filters of self and world concepts. space and the dissolution of self concepts is just one little aspect to the investigation of mind

so just like persepctives in general, looking from a different angle isn't more or less true, however it may be more or less helpful depending on what you're looking for. like if you're trying to find someone wearing glasses, looking at people from behind probably won't work as well as looking from in front.

also while one perspective is not more true than another, new perspectives do add more information. depending on how we define truth, more data from more perspectives means more truth.

and like I was saying the practice of space can disolve self concepts. thats different than the practice of planning your life, which reinforces self concepts. world concepts too.

part of the value is simply to have a choice to see through a particular filter or not. when your mind is always glued to one filter, you see through that filter weather you want or not, weather its helpful or not. if you've never seen another you don't even know its possible.

but when perspectives loosen up things can adjust as needed. its like if you're hunting maybe you want a wide open awareness, listening looking in all directions, and maybe when you're cutting a joint while building furniture you want to focus on one little detail


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28568040 - 12/04/23 09:48 AM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Good answer IMO


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28568049 - 12/04/23 09:57 AM (1 month, 24 days ago)

too logical answer IMHO
non-duality is experienced, not inferred.
it is not a sequence of this therefore that.
instead it is many moments experienced as one, and all signals experienced as a chord or chorus, one voice.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28568270 - 12/04/23 12:47 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Funknee


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28568342 - 12/04/23 01:46 PM (1 month, 23 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
too logical answer IMHO
non-duality is experienced, not inferred.
it is not a sequence of this therefore that.
instead it is many moments experienced as one, and all signals experienced as a chord or chorus, one voice.





I'm talking about practicing with space, not sure where non duality comes in


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OfflineBardy
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28568349 - 12/04/23 01:50 PM (1 month, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
If thats clear notice how the space within the hand isn't seperate from the space outside the hand. thats it.




It seems to me that to see something as not separate, one would need to see it as separate first. And if one can see it as separate, then what IYO makes this less true/valuable?




What you’re talking about with this specific example I think is the perceived border between the gases in our atmosphere and the particles which make up our skin organ. But I think this is a border which only exists conceptually in a way, so much as we call things “atmosphere” and “skin”. The words and concepts draw borders between things which don’t exist in the truest sense.

We (the gas and us) are all made up from the same fundamental elements.

It is helpful to recognise these borders of course, in order to survive. Conceptual thinking and the borders we create between all things is probably a very good evolutionary adaptation.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Bardy]
    #28568452 - 12/04/23 03:10 PM (1 month, 23 days ago)

Makes me think of a thing Zen teachers do from time to time. Whack the shoulder with a stick. Also funny stories about tweaking noses and the like.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28568472 - 12/04/23 03:41 PM (1 month, 23 days ago)

so here is something written by Jeffery Martin that is written much better than my words but is getting at the same thing. According to him what I'm talking about with space is refered to as non duality, but I don't consider it an end point or ultimate reality, because as mentions at the end of the quote, there is more to see.

Quote:

Layer 2 is the first layer beyond Layer 1 and involves the experience of all-containing
spaciousness and emptiness. The experience of it at Location 2 is what the majority of Finders
and literature on Fundamental Wellbeing describe as persistent awakening, nonduality, or
enlightenment. It is relatively rare for Finders in the general public to persistently go beyond
this combination of location and layer.

The most distinguishing qualities of Layer 2 are those of spaciousness, emptiness, vastness,
nothingness, expansiveness, formlessness, and so on. There is a sense that this aware emptiness
contains and encompasses everything, and that everything seems to be arising from and within.
Attention is centered more in the present, in direct experience rather than thoughts about
experience. When Layer 1 is no longer front and center in experience, the overlay of labels,
concepts, and interpretations on being and/or existence is no longer present. Everything is
experienced to just be here, within the limitless spacious clarity of Layer 2, and can feel truly
miraculous from this perspective.

Layers have degrees of depth to them, meaning someone can be on the shallow end in Layer
2, in the middle, or deeper. As one deepens into Layer 2, one gains increasing distance from
Layer 1 and mental activity feels increasingly impersonal and spontaneous. As this happens,
it becomes clear from a subjective experience standpoint that one is not one’s thoughts or
emotions, nor the agent of them. This results from subjective experience centering deeper in
Layer 2 and away from Layer 1. Consequently, the contents of Layer 1 can feel more in the
background, or as though they are arising within an overall context of stillness and spaciousness
(i.e., Layer 2) that feels deeper and more real than the movement of thought.

As perception moves into deeper layers, there are progressively greater depths and qualities
of stillness/silence. (The terms “stillness” and “silence” are used interchangeably, with some
Finders preferring one term over the other. “Silence” in this context does not refer to an absence
of audible sound, and “stillness” does not refer to everything being perceptually motionless.
Both “stillness” and “silence” are used to point to an existential quality of experience itself
that emerges as the perceptual filters, most obviously the activity of Layer 1, are progressively
removed.)
As mentioned, the stillness/silence relates to stripping away or getting beneath the processes
that filter and structure perception, beginning with the Layer 1 (i.e., labels, concepts,
interpretations, etc.) in the case of Layer 2. Layer 2 feels like a greater or more foundational
context for the unfolding of experience at Layer 1. The deeper layer, in this case Layer 2, feels
independent of the content of the preceding layer(s), in this case Layer 1.

This sense of distance from and space around Layer 1 makes its activity seem much less
compelling, and one typically becomes less reactive. This makes Layer 2 very effective for
releasing and reprogramming previously acquired psychological conditioning at Layer 1. The
downside of this is that Layer 2 can be used to disown and escape the parts of the system
where challenging conditioning resides. This is usually what is meant when people speak about
“spiritual bypassing”. Deepening away from Layer 1 may remove it from one’s subjective
awareness, but that does not mean it stops operating. This essentially leaves the conditioned
psychological tendencies that reside at Layer 1 to function unsupervised, which may not lead
to optimal life outcomes.

This tendency of Layer 2 is mostly relevant from Location 2 on, where one is able to more fully
isolate in Layer 2, and where this layer can feel like one has “made it” in terms of Fundamental
Wellbeing. A significant amount of religious and spiritual literature describes this experience
and assumes it to be the end of the path of deepening further into Fundamental Wellbeing.
This can lead people to root into it as deeply as they can, which can prevent the experience of
still deeper layers, and also significantly disconnect them from Layer 1. This, as mentioned, can
have unfavorable consequences in terms of overall integration and life functionality.




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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28568510 - 12/04/23 04:09 PM (1 month, 23 days ago)

I'm going to share a little more of this cause it seems so relevant and I find it so well written. o couple of words he uses, Locations refer to long term shifts that people experience and layers refers to layers of mind.

Quote:

The deeper experiences of Layer 2 typically only
occur for Finders from Location 2 on, where the
experience of Layer 2 moves more to the foreground
of moment-to-moment experience. Location 2
is nondual, meaning that there is no perception of
separation between subject (observer) and object
(observed). There is only a unified field of experience.
As a result, in Location 2 the experience of Layer
2 is also nondual. It feels as though one is indistinct
from the space in which everything arises and, deeper
into the layer, from the substance of everything
arising as well. Because of the nonduality at Location
2, especially beyond Layer 1 and the shallow end of
Layer 2, there is no sense of distinction between
the object of experience, the experiencer, and
the process of experiencing. It all seems to unfold
as one field of experience. There is no longer a
sense of within or without, the spaciousness is all
encompassing.

In this deeper experience of Layer 2, there is an
association with the substance of its spaciousness as
one’s true nature, which is also experienced as the
essential nature of everything. Perception becomes
progressively centered on Layer 2’s central qualities
of spaciousness and emptiness. This increasingly
highlights the impermanent and relative nature of
other aspects of perceptual experience, like thought,
emotion, sensation, and so on, which seem to come
and go, all contained within the properties, the
spaciousness, of Layer 2. Subjectively, it can feel
as though, instead of one’s body moving through
the world, the perceptual experience of the world is
flowing through the motionless, spacious clarity of
Layer 2. As one moves progressively deeper into the
layer, the experience of Layer 2 often feels more real
to Finders than anything else, in this case because
everything else seems impermanent by contrast.




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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28568651 - 12/04/23 06:10 PM (1 month, 23 days ago)

I prefer the less detailed second JM quote post above, the first one presents too many concepts and too much of that is theoretical in a direction that needs work or abandonment.

I am familiar with experiences like this but I have not previously called the absorption states layers - In yoga and buddhism they are called jhanas, and you can look that up on the web, 5 or six of them are commonly talked about which he (Finders? martin? not sure who is naming this stuff layers) has collapsed the jhanas into 2 resonant mental states.

He is describing what happens after calming is established (his layer 1), and the awareness is more fully sensory rather than perceptive, (i.e. not mentally working out anything,) just being there - he  refers to a perception of spaciousness in place of  chains of thought ramifying and interrupting this relaxed clearly reflective space - just experiencing here and now, as it cascades and reverberates naturally.

Something similar happens as when we get stoned on psychedelics, in that time is experienced in a frame stacked way (I do use layers to describe frame stacking) i.e. the moments fade more slowly and the experience becomes conjoined, like the many armed goddesses just being there, like the many headed buddhas keeping still but unlocked, it's simple and unified, neither dual nor multiple, until it is interrupted, because it is a state.

None of these states persist.

the buildup to the 2nd layer (I wish he called it a jhana or stage or resonant mind state instead of layer 2), follows several moves towards sustained concentration, which I find can happen after 5-20 minutes: My interpretation is that the short term memory becomes full of readiness to begin good concentration by virtue of several moves towards relaxed awareness, visiting several 'doorways', and this recent experience is helpful in continuing restarting concentration: i.e. following the breath and noticing phenomena arising in mind without reacting.

without reacting is quite an important factor among the qualities in the moves made towards relaxed awareness, and I think it is the way to the space he is talking about. supported by recent mental contents that pit awareness as a reflex process reflecting mental contents (i.e. everything that comes to awareness).

In the second phase/layer it becomes more of a it keeps on going spaciously thing from a let's restart thing in layer/phase 1.

traditionally layer 1 is split up into more jhanas, and so is layer 2.

I think I get what you mean by space now, and it is a good thing to bring up.
thank you. I like reducing the complexity of meditative resonant states to just 2!


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