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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28566216 - 12/03/23 03:32 AM (1 month, 25 days ago)

what do you mean
Quote:

Freedom said:
space practice can dismantle the self, can be a wild ride




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Offlineepilectric
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28566243 - 12/03/23 04:56 AM (1 month, 25 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

epilectric said:
i completely agree. it can make so calm and serene. but it usually only lasts for about an hour after a session. i need to keep it up again. everyday 15min at least



Of course the side effects of doing it dissipate, but the practice of following the breath, keeps on adding mental 'muscle memory' for calming down, and reconnecting to the task.
also the comfort with beginning again spreads to other things:
there are always going to be distractions, as the brain is always ready to detect movement and change, and it suppresses what is not moving, as well as navigating towards the familiar, beginning again is core to the practice of 'beginner's mind'.

if you make your moving target the breath, meditation proceeds naturally.

my simple regime for 45 mins or less

set your timer, get in a comfortable position, relax and begin
during the out breath - mentally say: "beginning," at the beginning of the out-breath, "middle," at the middle of the out-breath, and "end," at the end of the out-breath,
& during the in breath: "beginning," at the beginning of the in-breath, "middle," at the middle of the in-breath, and "end," at the end of the in-breath,
& repeat until the bell goes. relaxing as you notice the need.
& if you drift or lose it, begin again, without fuss or judgement.




yes i agree to the muscle memory. it has several trickle down effects

oh and i do as long as it feels fine. sometimes 15minutes, sometimes 30, up to 45 or 1h with a break inbetween...

i basically just feel the breath, not adding any words to it


Edited by epilectric (12/03/23 04:57 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: epilectric] * 1
    #28566278 - 12/03/23 06:12 AM (1 month, 25 days ago)

I lose the words after a bit, but use them again as part of beginning again.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28566495 - 12/03/23 09:23 AM (1 month, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Bardy said:
Is what I described what you call space practice?




well i made the phrase up so yeah lol

to me there are different ways to practice with space and different levels and phenomenah but basically the core of it is a shift in perspective from being a thing subject to experience to being the space where experience arises.

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
what do you mean
Quote:

Freedom said:
space practice can dismantle the self, can be a wild ride








Noticing I'm not a thing has an immediate effect, and also draws forth hidden self concepts . they come into concsiousness and are seen through and dropped. sometimes this happens over and over and they slowly weaken, sometimes all at once. I say its a wild ride because self concepts are so fundamental to how we build our lives.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28566529 - 12/03/23 09:46 AM (1 month, 25 days ago)

I hear lots of people claim they are dropping stuff but very few drop anything desirable in practice. Except actually practicing dropping attachments. People love to let go of letting go, because then they are self-excused to do anything they desire.

But ask someone to go without a cell phone and it's pretty evident IMO. No letting go.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28566632 - 12/03/23 11:37 AM (1 month, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I hear lots of people claim they are dropping stuff but very few drop anything desirable in practice. Except actually practicing dropping attachments. People love to let go of letting go, because then they are self-excused to do anything they desire.

But ask someone to go without a cell phone and it's pretty evident IMO. No letting go.




do you mean few drop what they desire, or few drop something desireable to drop?


and few of what group? of humans? most humans don't seem to even be aware of space never mind how to practice with it.




I'm not sure you understand what I mean, what does self concept mean to you, and why do you think seeing through a self concept enables irresponsibility?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28566633 - 12/03/23 11:37 AM (1 month, 25 days ago)

this is true, dropping A THING, sets up a focused resonance of the THING and that is moved into recency (aka Short term memory)
so it becomes easier to reactivate,
i.e. by dropping it specifically we pick it up more easily perception wise.

and what is dropping it anyway, a sentence?, a command? you can let a thing fall from your hand, but how can you do that in your mind except by diverting the attention to the overall nature of mind (in buddhism usually they generalize it as attachment (aka reflexes) - but this is also usually understood to be connected to craving and desire, but that is really completely another matter - dumb religion shit).

what has to happen is to build some relaxation, some tranquility, which is a refuge from all the hundreds of reflexes firing every minute.

oddly we are building it via reflex as well, but it is the reflex to cultivate calmness, it is the calming reflex itself.

In buddhism there are 2 main kinds of meditation,
a) samatha meditation (aka relaxation) - including chakra, mandala, yantra, mantra, breathing, etc.
AND
b) vipassana meditation (aka insight) - which actually requires (a) relaxation, or it explodes, so it begins with relaxation
[ BUT ALSO
c) zen meditation - actually is a renaming of (a)&(b) revised through japanese culture and chinese history mixed in
and
d) tibetan yoga and secret doctrines.... it goes on, but I think Milarepa's Listening pose is an excellent echo of hinduism's eternal sound stuff.]


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28566641 - 12/03/23 11:41 AM (1 month, 25 days ago)

im using dropping here when something is seen through and no longer believed to be true

its like santa clause. when you learn santa isn't real, its not hard to stop believing and acting on that belief, although you might even play out the game


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28566643 - 12/03/23 11:43 AM (1 month, 25 days ago)

even if you were really attached to santa

thats why it can be a wild ride


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28566647 - 12/03/23 11:45 AM (1 month, 25 days ago)

and I get how on one hand there are a ton of people into spirituality who are bascially getting emotioanl highs and stuff, but on the other hand there are people who are having radical changes to their experience of being alive, and there are challanges that go along with that


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28566686 - 12/03/23 12:12 PM (1 month, 25 days ago)

you mean like everyone is in a different place.
and I agree, and also I think everyone could use a little calming down.
hahaha!

if they get to insight - bonus, but calming is the refuge. it can lead to -> clarity
(which of course is a delusion too, but it is a respite from chaotic reflexing aka clinging and clanging)


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Freedom]
    #28566712 - 12/03/23 12:30 PM (1 month, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
I hear lots of people claim they are dropping stuff but very few drop anything desirable in practice. Except actually practicing dropping attachments. People love to let go of letting go, because then they are self-excused to do anything they desire.

But ask someone to go without a cell phone and it's pretty evident IMO. No letting go.




do you mean few drop what they desire, or few drop something desireable to drop?


and few of what group? of humans? most humans don't seem to even be aware of space never mind how to practice with it.




I'm not sure you understand what I mean, what does self concept mean to you, and why do you think seeing through a self concept enables irresponsibility?




Few of those claiming to be free of their thoughts. Few of those claiming to be the space in which all things happen equally. I have no clue what you all are referring to honestly. But behaviorally I don't see many change with such views. Which from the outside makes it seem like just thoughts.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28566886 - 12/03/23 03:01 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

you can let a thing fall from your hand, but how can you do that in your mind except by diverting the attention to the overall nature of mind

With practice. There are many traditions which emphasize the importance of practice, and few which jump to the conclusion of practice.

I heard a psychiatrist look at sand mandalas in an interesting way. He described them in his view as a way to practice extreme effort, attention to detail, focus, etc. while knowing it will be destroyed upon completion. Practicing not letting this knowledge of impending destruction prevent the effort, the attention and focus.

One can say, ah, I get it. But that does not mean they could create such a sand mandala, nor that they would destroy their efforts freely. Such "I get it" moments are not akin to the fruit of practice.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineBardy
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28566893 - 12/03/23 03:05 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I hear lots of people claim they are dropping stuff but very few drop anything desirable in practice. Except actually practicing dropping attachments. People love to let go of letting go, because then they are self-excused to do anything they desire.

But ask someone to go without a cell phone and it's pretty evident IMO. No letting go.




Letting go doesn’t have to happen all the time. You can practice letting go at different points throughout the day, and then come back to socialising, and your relationships, and everything that matters to you.

It’s about letting go in the moment I think. No one can do 100% of the time their whole lives.

I mean we’re only human.. we’re gonna get distracted at some point. I think it’s all about coming back to the practice when possible once you notice you’re distracted.


Edited by Bardy (12/03/23 05:03 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Bardy]
    #28566959 - 12/03/23 03:54 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Bardy said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
I hear lots of people claim they are dropping stuff but very few drop anything desirable in practice. Except actually practicing dropping attachments. People love to let go of letting go, because then they are self-excused to do anything they desire.

But ask someone to go without a cell phone and it's pretty evident IMO. No letting go.




Letting go doesn’t have to happen all the time. You can practice letting go at different points throughout the day, and then come back to socialising, and your relationships, and everything that matters to you.

It’s about letting go in the moment I think. No one can do 100% of the time their whole lives.



I think you mean letting go as in breathe
which is a shift in attention

this is non specific.

if you make it transitive, then the object of the letting go keeps recycling associatively


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28567031 - 12/03/23 04:41 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

No, I don't mean just breath. Although it is a very common place to put attention.

Edit: oops, I missed that you quoted bardy :smile:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Bardy]
    #28567045 - 12/03/23 04:49 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Bardy said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
I hear lots of people claim they are dropping stuff but very few drop anything desirable in practice. Except actually practicing dropping attachments. People love to let go of letting go, because then they are self-excused to do anything they desire.

But ask someone to go without a cell phone and it's pretty evident IMO. No letting go.




Letting go doesn’t have to happen all the time. You can practice letting go at different points throughout the day, and then come back to socialising, and your relationships, and everything that matters to you.

It’s about letting go in the moment I think. No one can do 100% of the time their whole lives.




I agree that skill is a matter of degree. But is space a matter of degree? Are you saying sometimes space is spacious and sometimes it is not? Or are you saying that you are not that space now, but you were before? Or that you only feel like space when you are thinking spacey


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28567101 - 12/03/23 05:25 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
I hear lots of people claim they are dropping stuff but very few drop anything desirable in practice. Except actually practicing dropping attachments. People love to let go of letting go, because then they are self-excused to do anything they desire.

But ask someone to go without a cell phone and it's pretty evident IMO. No letting go.




do you mean few drop what they desire, or few drop something desireable to drop?


and few of what group? of humans? most humans don't seem to even be aware of space never mind how to practice with it.




I'm not sure you understand what I mean, what does self concept mean to you, and why do you think seeing through a self concept enables irresponsibility?




Few of those claiming to be free of their thoughts. Few of those claiming to be the space in which all things happen equally. I have no clue what you all are referring to honestly. But behaviorally I don't see many change with such views. Which from the outside makes it seem like just thoughts.




so you're saying you don't understand what I'm saying, and instead of ignoring it or trying to understand it, you're associating it with something else and then imagining that association invalidates as "just thoughts"?


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OfflineBardy
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: Kickle]
    #28567110 - 12/03/23 05:31 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
you can let a thing fall from your hand, but how can you do that in your mind except by diverting the attention to the overall nature of mind

With practice. There are many traditions which emphasize the importance of practice, and few which jump to the conclusion of practice.

I heard a psychiatrist look at sand mandalas in an interesting way. He described them in his view as a way to practice extreme effort, attention to detail, focus, etc. while knowing it will be destroyed upon completion. Practicing not letting this knowledge of impending destruction prevent the effort, the attention and focus.

One can say, ah, I get it. But that does not mean they could create such a sand mandala, nor that they would destroy their efforts freely. Such "I get it" moments are not akin to the fruit of practice.




I agree with this 100%. I think playing music is similar in a way. It is only there while you’re playing, and then it is not.

I don’t think I totally understand what you mean by is space a matter of degree… but I’d say I am always the space, it’s just whether or not I’m paying attention.

The language around this stuff can get really confusing lol


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: praise to meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28567112 - 12/03/23 05:32 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
you mean like everyone is in a different place.
and I agree, and also I think everyone could use a little calming down.
hahaha!

if they get to insight - bonus, but calming is the refuge. it can lead to -> clarity
(which of course is a delusion too, but it is a respite from chaotic reflexing aka clinging and clanging)




I think they go hand in hand and there's a natural unfolding

like maybe shamatah sounds boring so the person can't do it  but space sounds exciting, then the great amazing mind blowing insights lead to oh, normal "boring"  shamatah, but then the practice of that gets more subtle and intresting and then oh wait it provides a foundatino to stabilize insight and then those mind blowing insights just become normal and

or perhaps a person is scared of insight but calming sounds nice, but then when they get real calm they start to become curious or....

but yeah if everyone had calm abiding as a tool that would be hella tight. there is a lot of insight in just that actually. By cutting of the mindless proliferation of thought a great deal of dullness and confusion can be cleared away


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