Home | Community | Message Board

World Seed Supply
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | Next >  [ show all ]
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: Bardy]
    #28561289 - 11/29/23 07:49 PM (1 month, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Bardy said:
Kickle, I agree with your way of looking at it. Seems like a good answer to me.

And Sudly, I think probability is a different thing, which I think you acknowledged in your statement.
No one can prove that the Sun will rise tomorrow, but we do have very good reason to believe it will.

But the thing I think I’m getting at is we can’t even prove absolutely that the sun exists.




Aww shucks, you're saying the moon doesn't exist when you're not looking at it :facepalm:


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: Bardy]
    #28561293 - 11/29/23 07:54 PM (1 month, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Bardy said:
I do accept that the sun exists, because right now the heat from it is killing me haha. But I’m more trying to understand what we mean by proof I think.

And I think replicability is pretty much on the money. I’m open to other ways of thinking of it though.

Haha, thanks RGV. Cheers for making the effort anyway. If I was stoned I’d only be able to read 🤣




If you accept the Sun exists then it's because you've observed the proof.

I believe the Sun is absolute in the sense it is evidenced by the evidence that it exists, but I tend to lean on probabilities as a semantic tool for dealing with people who say we can't know anything.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBardy
Male

Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 11 minutes, 57 seconds
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: sudly]
    #28561305 - 11/29/23 08:02 PM (1 month, 28 days ago)

No I’m not saying that at all haha (re: your first comment about the moon) I’m saying we can’t prove anything is real. The misunderstanding is mostly my fault. I need to improve my communication skills.

So the sun and moon and everything else do exist within this experience, which we cannot prove is real?

I’m not even sure where I’m going with this, I’m trying to get you guys to help me learn about it basically haha. I like hearing what people have to say about this stuff.

———

Yeah, but proof isn’t about probabilities though is it? Proof in my mind means there is no room for doubt.

The classic example would be that we could all be in the matrix and all of this could be a very realistic dream. We might just be brains in vats hooked up to computers which can simulate pain and suffering, happiness and bliss and everything in between. I don’t believe this is true, I don’t even believe this is likely to be true, I’m truly agnostic… but if the possibility is there, then I suppose we could only prove things to be true about the simulation that we’re in. Which I guess is maybe the answer to my question?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: Bardy]
    #28561441 - 11/29/23 09:54 PM (1 month, 28 days ago)

Why not? Why can't this experience be real? I never think my own experience is fake or nothing, why do people do this?

I know the difference between my imagination and what I'm really experiencing in my environment, in aware of my own biases and honest to a point with myself.

Where is there room for doubt? All I've ever heard is the reliance on unfounded new fundamental forces giving hope to wishes or pansychism that rely on an undiscovered fundamental force!!

What isn't real in your mind? I know for certain that all my being has evolved, I have no doubt at all and am absolutely certain that I, in my entirety of cumulative cognition and organic being did infact evolve. Maybe that's the difference.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBardy
Male

Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 11 minutes, 57 seconds
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: sudly]
    #28561536 - 11/29/23 11:36 PM (1 month, 28 days ago)

Well I’m not saying the experience isn’t real, I’m saying that that is the only thing we can be sure is real in a sense.

If you use your imagination for a moment, you could imagine a reality in which you are the only thing that truly exists, and everything happening around you or to you or to others is just taking place inside your experience.

Every noise, every smell, every ache or pain, every emotion is arising within your consciousness and you have no way to tell for sure how closely your experience matches what is really happening externally to you, or whether there is any point in imagining things as internal or external to consciousness. It might be better viewed as all being one.

That thought experiment introduces doubt about how things actually are, compared to how we perceive them.

Even if we’re not brains in metal vats on an alien spaceship somewhere, in a very real sense we are still brains in vats. In this case the vat is just made of bone, flesh and skin.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrendanFlock
Stranger
Male

Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 2 days, 13 hours
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: Bardy]
    #28561543 - 11/29/23 11:49 PM (1 month, 28 days ago)

Things are self proved via experience..?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBardy
Male

Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 11 minutes, 57 seconds
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #28561544 - 11/29/23 11:53 PM (1 month, 28 days ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
Things are self proved via experience..?




You can prove to yourself that you have having an experience, but you cannot prove that to me absolutely. You could convince me of it though.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: Bardy]
    #28561566 - 11/30/23 12:23 AM (1 month, 28 days ago)

There are things I know that I don't know because I'm honest to myself about it, you could ask me how to install fibre optics and I'd say I have no clue.

I am aware that my imagination isn't my real experience! Not being able to do that is hyperactive mental delirium!!!

Your experience is only real when it reflects what happened between you and your environment. How we interact with our environment is real.

Everything happening around us is being experienced by the other people around us too. Sunburn isn't my imagination, you can experience it too.

I can match all my sensations to what I'm experiencing within the interaction I'm having between myself and my environment. I can remember things differently to what happened, but that's a fault of my own recollection, it can be good, but isn't always perfect.

Awwwww shit, there you said it, all as one being, you're delving into pansychism, and all I can say is that you have to know it relies on an imaginary fundamental force that doesn't exist to be real. It's a presumptive philosophy that relies on a distinct future discovery to occur that hasn't as of yet.

We're evolved beings who've developed an understanding of the natural world as the cumulative experience of our understanding. Our minds are a cumulative butterfly effect of experience, recollection and the knowledge that births from it.

But if you really want to explore the path I think you're going down, look up Asante in this forum, read his omnicylion, and reflect on your thoughts after that.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrendanFlock
Stranger
Male

Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 2 days, 13 hours
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: Bardy]
    #28561567 - 11/30/23 12:39 AM (1 month, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Bardy said:
Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
Things are self proved via experience..?




You can prove to yourself that you have having an experience, but you cannot prove that to me absolutely. You could convince me of it though.



I think then therefore the next question is:

Can I tell if someone is telling the truth or not?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBardy
Male

Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 11 minutes, 57 seconds
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: sudly]
    #28561572 - 11/30/23 12:58 AM (1 month, 28 days ago)

Your imagination is part of your real experience. It isn’t part of the external world usually though, at least not the part of your imagination that you can “control”.

I can tell a lot of the time when my brain is inventing things that don’t match up with other peoples experiences of the world around us, but occasionally I get things wrong and have to think about what happened, talk to people and work out how things actually were.
Have you never had a disagreement with someone about something and found out you were completely wrong? I think that gives us  a small insight as to how ones mind can feel as though it has the correct view of the world, when in reality it’s completely wrong.

The imagination is an important tool to have in order to get to a more useful understanding of reality. We often have to imagine different ways in which things could be true and weigh them up against each other, and talk to other people to see what they can imagine as being true.

All of this is happening inside your conscious experience right now. And for practical purposes you have a model of the external world which you assume is truth. But that model is always changing and hopefully bettering itself in a healthy mind.

No, I’m not talking about panpsychism. I’m talking about the oneness of each of our personal experiences of consciousness.

I completely agree with you about how real our experiences are, and that it’s very practical to think that how we view the external world is as it is most of the time. And I treat it as such to function normally in life. I don’t go around shouting to everyone on the streets “this isn’t real!!” :lol:. I’m literally just on here to talk about these things because I find them so interesting.
And I think you may be missing the point I’m trying to make, and I’m not sure if it’s how I’m explaining it, or if you just aren’t quite using your imagination flexibly enough. But that’s all good man, we can just agree to disagree for now if you like 😊


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: Bardy]
    #28561577 - 11/30/23 01:13 AM (1 month, 28 days ago)

your imagination is a reflection of your associative experiences, you have memory of associative experiences but it doesn't mean those experiences aren't real. They wouldn't exist without you interacting with the environment in the real world to form them.

Sometimes you've got to communicate with others to gather recollections of the events that unfolded during a situation sure.

Misinterpretations or not remembering the details of an event aren't evidence that the event didn't happen or isn't real, it's only the individuals memory that may not reflect the actual events that happen.

Ignorance just means not knowing, and not knowing is not so much a shame as being unwilling to learn.

Having a firm grasp of analytical methodology is of greater use than speculative imagination in grasping an understanding of the events that occur around us in nature.

Different perspectives or interpretations are good to hear, but they don't in and of themselves change the matter at hand of what happened in reality. You could ask someone what they think happened when the apple fell from the tree and they might say them imagined an invisible being pulled it from the tree, but that's not going to make steps in attaining the reality of the situation.

The external model of the world is the truth, and we try to understand it. We can be wrong in doing so, but it doesn't change what that truth is. Our model that tries to understand reality changes, but not the reality itself.

You can't define 'oneness' when you're using it, and I'll bet on the probability of that being true.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineHeroic DosageS
Psychonaut Storyteller
Male


Registered: 11/30/23
Posts: 30
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 1 month, 6 days
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: Bardy] * 1
    #28561584 - 11/30/23 01:46 AM (1 month, 28 days ago)

I once remember thinking that consciousness could adequately be defined as the presence of short and long term memory.

If we strip someone of memory entirely, including memories of a few microseconds ago, are they conscious?

I want to discuss your original point, but I'm having a tough time understanding what you mean when you say 'proven'.

As far as I'm aware, all that can be proven falls into the category of 'deductive logic'.

Anything else, good luck, especially in this 'post-truth' world where what is real seems ever harder to discern.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBardy
Male

Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 11 minutes, 57 seconds
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: sudly]
    #28561597 - 11/30/23 02:15 AM (1 month, 28 days ago)

Maybe it was me who was misunderstanding you then… because I agree with everything you just said.

I think I’m trying to explain something different to what you’re talking about and I don’t want to go around and around in circles talking past one another haha

I agreed with what Kickle said in the beginning and I think what you’re saying now is roughly converging on what they were saying.

I’m not trying to deny the existence of the material world. I’m not trying to invent anything that isn’t there either. I’m trying to say that, in a way, all we truly have is our own conscious experience in any moment.
And what I mean by a sense of oneness is as definable as any other word man. I mean the sense you get when you experience selflessness and thoughtlessness, such that the entire world that you can sense isn’t “out there” as much as it is “in here”. It’s feels a part of you, and you feel a part of it. Separateness fades away, and the way we usually think of objects and materials in the world cease to feel as though they are really separate from oneself. Centrelessness is another way to put it I think.

Sorry if my last comment came off as a bit pompous at the end… It is of course possible that I’m not understanding you fully.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: Bardy]
    #28561602 - 11/30/23 02:24 AM (1 month, 28 days ago)

What do you get when observations match and are repeatable? I'll leave it at that.

if you're defining oneness as selflessness and thoughtlessness, and that the external world isn't 'sensed', as much as the external world is 'sensed' 'internally, I don't think you've been able to articulate a definition.

I have subjective views of the objective world, and the only sense of 'oneness' I might feel in these regards, is that I know we all have red blood and evolved. We share common ancestry, we're all living on this planet, we all share the same world, but have our own views within it. It doesn't mean those views alone shape the world, but they do play part in enabling us to shape the world around us by helping us in understanding how it works.

I'm just of the opinion that if you can't clearly define a word, don't use it to try and explain any kind of concept because it'll only muddy the waters for you and anyone trying to read it.

Oneness is my sense is shared evolutionary history.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrendanFlock
Stranger
Male

Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 2 days, 13 hours
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: sudly]
    #28561613 - 11/30/23 02:35 AM (1 month, 28 days ago)

Every moment you exchange energies, metaphors and words..

The dynamic exchange in a relationship is alchemy..


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrendanFlock
Stranger
Male

Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 2 days, 13 hours
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #28561614 - 11/30/23 02:36 AM (1 month, 28 days ago)

Alachemy is between everything.!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBardy
Male

Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 11 minutes, 57 seconds
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: sudly]
    #28561620 - 11/30/23 02:42 AM (1 month, 28 days ago)

No, I did just define it… you just didn’t accept my definition. Surely you have to concede that right? Haha
When I say oneness I’m not just talking about feeling one with other people and animals, I’m talking the entire universe.

I’m not sure why you’re bringing evolution into the conversation, because I’m talking about our conscious experience as a whole.

When observations match and are repeatable we get better and better predictive theories about the nature of reality. Hopefully we can agree about that?

I’ve been listening to a lot of Alan Watts and Sam Harris on the topics of meditation and consciousness, and what they say about it matches up perfectly with my experience. I’m really enjoying it at the moment. If you’re interested in knowing what I’ve been trying to get at here I’d recommend giving them a listen. Alan Watts is especially entertaining, but Sam has this very articulate way of presenting these ideas.

I’m a science man too, love it. So don’t think I’m one of these spiritual, new age religious, science denier types 😊


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: Bardy]
    #28561621 - 11/30/23 02:46 AM (1 month, 28 days ago)

Maybe you can try again because what you said didn't make sense in any colloquial sense. And using oneness in relation to the universe is spot on with panpsychism.

How could you know what an observation is given your stance?

The way you're going is the way of the omnicyclion.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBardy
Male

Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 11 minutes, 57 seconds
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: sudly]
    #28561635 - 11/30/23 03:23 AM (1 month, 28 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Maybe you can try again because what you said didn't make sense in any colloquial sense. And using oneness in relation to the universe is spot on with panpsychism.




No man. You just rejected my definition because you didn’t like it. Plain and simple. I’m not jumping through hoops for you because you don’t understand.

And my definition of the feeling of oneness has nothing to do with panpsychism. Panpsychism is the claim that consciousness is an inherent property of all matter in the universe. That is not what I’m saying.

Quote:

sudly said:
How could you know what an observation is given your stance?

The way you're going is the way of the omnicyclion.




This isn’t my entire world view, I know what an observation is. This is simply a recognition of the nature of consciousness as one experiences it.

You think you know the way I’m going, but my friend you are mistaken. Peace man, not in this for a fight. In this to learn.


Edited by Bardy (11/30/23 04:10 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBardy
Male

Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 11 minutes, 57 seconds
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: Bardy]
    #28561654 - 11/30/23 04:04 AM (1 month, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Heroic Dosage said:
I once remember thinking that consciousness could adequately be defined as the presence of short and long term memory.

If we strip someone of memory entirely, including memories of a few microseconds ago, are they conscious?

I want to discuss your original point, but I'm having a tough time understanding what you mean when you say 'proven'.

As far as I'm aware, all that can be proven falls into the category of 'deductive logic'.

Anything else, good luck, especially in this 'post-truth' world where what is real seems ever harder to discern.




Sorry mate, missed your post! Yeah the initial question in the title is kind of lacking a lot in clarity haha, but I think my first post explains a little more of what I meant at the time.

I’m just trying to figure these things out… questions about reality, consciousness, truth and proof. I’m quite a noobie when it comes to philosophy, never studied it or anything but take quite an interest in it and love listening to what other people have to say about it.

I’m a little confused for sure, but I still feel like there’s a few things I know to be true about my conscious experience.

Deduction is a great tool, and mathematical proof I know is solid, but these are both language games that we play aren’t they? And I think the general consensus is that they don’t map onto reality perfectly… hence why we don’t have a “theory of everything”.

The way I think about it at this point I’m time is, the logic of languages can be used to absolutely prove a statement is true or false, and the logic inherent in language can be used to form extremely accurate predictive theories about nature. But these theories aren’t perfect. They always fail to predict some aspect of nature. Which is okay, because they’re not supposed to.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* ... in Literature, and everything else
( 1 2 all )
shadowed 2,558 24 05/06/10 02:16 AM
by Noteworthy
* Eastern religious thought - Recommend me some literature.... andrewss 1,632 14 01/11/11 10:46 AM
by NetDiver
* The Cremaster cycle trailer SneezingPenis 817 7 04/23/05 02:15 PM
by SneezingPenis
* Declining literacy levels/de-emphasizing the importance of literature
( 1 2 all )
NastyDHL 3,149 22 10/15/08 07:45 AM
by Boots
* is the concept of an evil spiritual force adequately dealt with anywhere in new age literature?
( 1 2 all )
BigAlHux 4,184 32 07/21/07 12:54 AM
by BigAlHux
* Sadean literature and nature MokshaMan 1,420 6 09/30/01 01:25 AM
by Jellric
* Nihilist literature. Psilosomatic 1,216 5 04/26/05 04:35 PM
by SneezingPenis
* I have proven Telekenisis to myself
( 1 2 3 all )
2Experimental 2,766 49 09/26/04 07:59 PM
by deff

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
726 topic views. 0 members, 12 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.026 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 13 queries.