|
Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 12 minutes, 23 seconds
|
Can anything be proven?
#28559777 - 11/28/23 05:17 PM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
|
|
In what sense can we prove anything? Are we able to prove anything absolutely?
I know that I’m experiencing something that I call consciousness, and I can prove that to myself in each moment by paying attention. But I cannot prove that I experience consciousness to anyone else.
Are we able to prove anything to another conscious being? Or at some level, are we all just intertwined in a web of trusting each other to varying degrees?
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: Bardy]
#28559826 - 11/28/23 05:56 PM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
|
|
what do you call consciousness? just focus on that. if you do describe something that resembles what we experience, you will have a resounding conference.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 12 minutes, 23 seconds
|
|
I’m stumped.
I was thinking of saying consciousness is what it feels like to be me…
Then I thought that answer has been learned from other people, so I’ll try to think about it and put it into my own words instead…
Then I realised I can’t pin point exactly what it is…
Maybe something like - the experiencing of all of my senses simultaneously. But it’s hard to describe what it’s like to experience a sense. This is why it’s so hard to describe tripping to people who have never tripped… it’s like trying to describe consciousness to a rock
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
|
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: Bardy]
#28560194 - 11/28/23 11:03 PM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
|
|
My cumulative memories and experience
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 12 minutes, 23 seconds
|
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: sudly]
#28560227 - 11/29/23 12:30 AM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
|
|
Is that consciousness? Or is that a product of consciousness?
Experiencing what is happening now in the visual field, sound field, smell and sensation field, without remembering any memories or drawing from experience is like pure consciousness… but then, that is drawing on past experiences to get there.
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
|
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: Bardy]
#28560239 - 11/29/23 01:13 AM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
|
|
It's a me, Sudly!
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 12 minutes, 23 seconds
|
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: sudly]
#28560253 - 11/29/23 01:52 AM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sudly said: It's a me, Sudly!

Imagine someone who is experiencing full memory loss, but who is still perfectly conscious. Consciousness is still there, but there are no experiences to draw from and no memories.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: Bardy]
#28560321 - 11/29/23 05:23 AM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Bardy said: Is that consciousness? Or is that a product of consciousness?
Experiencing what is happening now in the visual field, sound field, smell and sensation field, without remembering any memories or drawing from experience is like pure consciousness… but then, that is drawing on past experiences to get there.
my understanding is that both processes of experiencing: sensing, and recollecting something similar (knowing or being familiar with what is sensed - including body movements) is a large part of it, but also there is a strong echo of recency, or what we have just been doing which facilitates what will be perceived (recalled from memory), AKA short term memory - which is the warm trail of what was recently experienced (this could be feelings - the warm trail, or short term memory)) :: all that together seems to make up everything that is consciousness [on a neural correlate basis as well as using common language]. AND when in dreamless sleep, or aesthetically medicated, there is no consciousness, AND in those times there is also no alpha or theta wave detected in EEG.
So all that may be a mouthful or two more than what you wrote, but it is a direct extension of that which you wrote.
Only recently have I shifted what I believed are feelings to the domain of recency (i.e. recent mental content activation). I used to say it is the apprehension of all mental contents, but that is what the awareness (reflection) of all mental contents is anyway. Feelings is more about finding one's way by how something feels. Recent activation facilitates the next perceptions, and that also seems to be the way "feelings" is most used.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 8 minutes
|
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: Bardy]
#28560928 - 11/29/23 03:12 PM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Bardy said: In what sense can we prove anything?
In the sense of replication. This is useful for communication and trust. I think many human experiences are replicated over and over again, forming a groundwork for social bonds.
Quote:
Bardy said:Are we able to prove anything absolutely?
No, thank goodness IMO. Absolutes are unchanging. This would be awful, again, IMO.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
|
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: Kickle]
#28560952 - 11/29/23 03:29 PM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
|
|
We can point to probabilities and essentially reach the same thing. E.g. do we know the Sun will rise tomorrow? Can we prove it? Well, there's a good probability it'll happen.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 8 minutes
|
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: sudly]
#28560954 - 11/29/23 03:32 PM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
|
|
The experience of the sun rising is a localized perspective and many mornings I do not experience that localized perspective due to circumstances. What does that do to the probability?
|
Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 12 minutes, 23 seconds
|
|
I think I’m just barely grasping what you mean by recency.
Does what you say still hold for someone who has no conceptual thinking happening, and who also has next to no working short term memory? As in the case of someone who has taken a large enough dose of psilocybin to be rendered conscious, but immediately forgets everything and can view any normal object and not have any concept of what that object is?
I suppose what I describe here still might have some basic level of working memory to draw upon what happened to the sense data a few milliseconds ago or something?
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
|
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: Kickle]
#28561035 - 11/29/23 04:51 PM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said: The experience of the sun rising is a localized perspective and many mornings I do not experience that localized perspective due to circumstances. What does that do to the probability?
You want to prove the experience of the Sun rising? Not what I what referring to.
The closest thing to proving something absolutely is in the probability of it happening.
I said, do we know the Sun will rise tomorrow? and you're all, 'I'll be in bed'
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: Bardy]
#28561036 - 11/29/23 04:53 PM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
|
|
recency is short term memory so On Psilocybin or any psychedelic we have less of a natural stay on course ability, but if we sit openly it is fantastic.
I am using recency to refer to all those neurons that were recently activated (eg in the last 5-7 minutes normally - shorter when stoned (so this is very hard for me to write))
I'm just going to press continue.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 12 minutes, 23 seconds
|
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: Kickle]
#28561144 - 11/29/23 06:08 PM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Kickle, I agree with your way of looking at it. Seems like a good answer to me.
And Sudly, I think probability is a different thing, which I think you acknowledged in your statement. No one can prove that the Sun will rise tomorrow, but we do have very good reason to believe it will.
But the thing I think I’m getting at is we can’t even prove absolutely that the sun exists.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: Bardy]
#28561202 - 11/29/23 07:03 PM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
|
|
but the world is turning to face the sun and then away again, the sun is not actually rising at all.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 8 minutes
|
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: sudly]
#28561211 - 11/29/23 07:08 PM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
Kickle said: The experience of the sun rising is a localized perspective and many mornings I do not experience that localized perspective due to circumstances. What does that do to the probability?
You want to prove the experience of the Sun rising? Not what I what referring to.
The closest thing to proving something absolutely is in the probability of it happening.
I said, do we know the Sun will rise tomorrow? and you're all, 'I'll be in bed' 
I'm not after proof. Maybe a social bond. I have a record of waking up before light hits the valley I live in. For about a decade now I've been an early riser. No, mine was more a comment on just how much goes into perceiving a sunrise.
There are certain canyons nearby where houses are in shadow the majority of the day. And go a bit more north from here and there are times when the sun neither rises nor sets in 24 hours. Locality...
The Sun will rise is also a phrase that feels like an homage to human centric thinking of old. Where the earth is seen as the center of the universe and the sun must orbit us. It's more accurate to say that the geography around us is what is moving in relation to the sun, that I am moving, than to say the sun is moving in relation to little ole me.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: Kickle]
#28561222 - 11/29/23 07:14 PM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
|
|
we are meeting and leaving behind the sun every day
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 8 minutes
|
|
Makes me dizzy TBH
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 12 minutes, 23 seconds
|
Re: Can anything be proven? [Re: Bardy]
#28561237 - 11/29/23 07:21 PM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
|
|
I do accept that the sun exists, because right now the heat from it is killing me haha. But I’m more trying to understand what we mean by proof I think.
And I think replicability is pretty much on the money. I’m open to other ways of thinking of it though.
Haha, thanks RGV. Cheers for making the effort anyway. If I was stoned I’d only be able to read 🤣
|
|