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Offlinesolarshroomster
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Spirituality vs. Mysticism * 2
    #28559147 - 11/28/23 07:05 AM (1 month, 30 days ago)

Spirituality vs. Mysticism

I've been meaning to write this post for awhile now, but I've always avoided it, lest I sound like I have a superiority complex. But, after recent events, such as me getting cancelled from a subreddit, r/Spirituality, over sticking up for animal rights, I've decided to make this post.

I feel like there's a big difference between Spirituality and Mysticism. I'm confused why this forum is even caused "Spirituality & Mysticism" and propose that we consider divorcing the two, as difficult as that may be, or better yet just consider deleting the word "Spirituality" altogether. I'll explain why.

You've heard of spiritual but not religious.

I'm proposing we create another category, mystical but not spiritual.

Let me explain.

To me, spirituality is often (though, by no mean always) associated with "faux spiritualist" actors. Spirituality all too often (though, again, not always) consists of people who have never had an actual mystical experience. These "faux spiritualists", in their "feel good" pop spirituality, seem to go out of their way to make mystical truth look absolutely ridiculous such that no one can take any of it the slightest bit seriously. They vary from outright frauds to people who honestly mean well, but really just have never had a mystical experience. Either way, their presence is why a lot of people feel like the mystical domain is just "a security blanket for those afraid of the dark". They give this impression to the skeptics for good reason: they often make up theories about the nature of the universe just because it "feels good", without actually having had any direct experience of it. They're the bullshitters, the spiritual hucksters. Quite frankly, I don't blame pseudoskeptics for deriding them: how can you take seriously someone who, still "wet behind the ears", claims it's "all yoga, dude", or attempts to "douse" for "rock energies". Never mind those who seek it for money. It almost seems like they're intent on getting people to reject all of the "real" Spirituality & Mysticism?

I know it seems like I'm being harsh here and acting as if I know better, but let me back up and tell you about my personal experience with the "spiritualists". Their presence is why I kept a 100 ft stick away from anything slightly resembling Spirituality. Their ideas, I can't emphasize this enough have 0 to do with direct experience and all to do with what they think "feels good".

By contrast, to me, Mysticism is about the "core eternal nugget", if you will behind the authentic "religious feeling". It's about direct experience and actually produces "veterans" and "graduates" who have actually "lived the tale", not just professed the tale. They have actually been inside the Spiritual book and know it from first-hand direct exposure. In this sense, they are more authentic than the spiritualists. I believe the vast majority of the members of this forum belong to the "Mystic" category, and (now that I think about it more) thus suggest we rename this forum as "Mysticism". Maybe there can be a Spirituality forum for those just "starting out" without the direct first-hand experience, but either way, I think it's important, for educational purposes to conceptualize "Spirituality" as different from "Mysticism" given the reality of their two very distinct populations.

Don't get me wrong here, no one is technically better than anyone else. I've often believed that those who are earliest in their journeys are the wisest! And I believe we are all apart of this together, and that "nobody knows", but it does seem like it's worth pointing out the difference between "Spirituality" and "Mysticism" for a "Spirituality & Mysticism" forum.

Thoughts?


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28559312 - 11/28/23 10:46 AM (1 month, 29 days ago)

Again I think don't give away good words to bad things. There are frauds in most any field, and there are those underqualified but without bad intentions which is neither the same. Let that be recognized and otherwise keep words where possible for helpful meanings imo. If we need a mechanic, we assume they are what they say or else how do we seek them? Once found, we try to determine their integrity and experience etc individually.


Edited by syncro (11/28/23 10:48 AM)


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: syncro] * 3
    #28560784 - 11/29/23 01:21 PM (1 month, 28 days ago)

I don't see the issue. Some people might be attracted to a certain religion or tradition. And some really need to be able to characterize "God" for example. Others need to be able to conceptualize everything. As Alan Watts said: 'They all want to catch the fish of reality in a intellectual net, although reality is more like water and slips through the net.'

So, everybody goes through their own process following their own path, and truly, in the end there's no good or bad in this. There are no levels, no steps up or down, nothing that's attained or lost.

Sri Ramakrishna;
Quote:

I have practised all religions - Hinduism, Islam, Christianity - and I have also followed the paths of the different Hindu sects. I have found that it is the same God toward whom all are directing their steps, though along different paths. You must try all beliefs and traverse all the different ways once. Wherever I look, I see men quarrelling in the name of religion - Hindus, Mohammedans, Brahmos, Vaishnavas, and the rest. But they never reflect that He who is called Krishna is also called Siva, and bears the name of the Primal Energy, Jesus, and Allah as well - the same Rama with a thousand names. A lake has several Ghats. At one, the Hindus take water in pitchers and call it ' Jal ' ; at another the Mussalmans take water in leather bags and call it ' pani '. At a third the Christians call it ' water '. Can we imagine that it is not ' Jal ' , but only ' pani ' or ' water '? How ridiculous! The substance is One under different names, and everyone is seeking the same substance; only climate, temperament, and name create differences. Let each man follow his own path. If he sincerely and ardently wishes to know God, peace be unto him! He will surely realize Him.




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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: spinvis] * 4
    #28560969 - 11/29/23 03:44 PM (1 month, 28 days ago)

There are no levels, no steps up or down, nothing that's attained or lost.

Send me a :pm: and I'll let you know where to send all the money you cannot lose and I cannot attain :wink:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28560990 - 11/29/23 04:05 PM (1 month, 28 days ago)

Haha you're too late Kickle, I have send the moneys to the Trees fundraiser. :wink:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: spinvis] * 1
    #28561007 - 11/29/23 04:21 PM (1 month, 28 days ago)

This place is going to the trees!

Sorry, old timey reference to the saying: this place is going to the dogs


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28561158 - 11/29/23 06:22 PM (1 month, 28 days ago)

Bump one for trees.org. :trees:


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: solarshroomster] * 1
    #28582486 - 12/14/23 11:13 AM (1 month, 13 days ago)

then in a 100 years mysticism will have to be replaced :smile:

whatever it is we're pointing to, can't be captured with words anyway. thats part of the problem, people here the words and then imagine they know what the words mean

i wouldn't totally discount the people who seem so fake. I think we have an intuitve sense of this stuff, and then we project symbols and images and ideas that resonate with that intuition, which might give a slight taste of what  you might be pointing to


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OfflineAshghanistan
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: Freedom] * 1
    #28594668 - 12/23/23 12:52 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Why cant life be what we define it to be? Our measurements determine our reality. I dont think we should limit other peoples experiences because they dont fit our understanding.


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Offlinedreamninja
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: Ashghanistan] * 1
    #28596970 - 12/24/23 07:27 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

In order to be mystical you have to be spiritual I feel.
Give up religion
( religion is agreed upon spiritual practices)
Spiritual ( spiritual uality  universal) a lot of other spiritual words if you re rearrange letes of spiritual

Mystic are a class of there own.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: dreamninja] * 1
    #28599882 - 12/27/23 02:25 PM (1 month, 16 hours ago)

Religion is

the metaphor of christ, a historical narrative of christ, a delusional fairy tale of christ, an authoritarian mind control system using christ as a means of manipulation

it is

the church potluck, kids playing in the church parking lot, turning to face each other and wishing 'peace be with you'  and feeling it, its turning to face each other and feeling obligated to say something that doesn't feel real. its eyeing that cute person on the pew, its...

a repository of generations of people searching for wisdom, peace, love, wonder, beauty, truth. a repository of all the delsion that comes with it

religion is a means of adapting groups of people to their environmental survival pressures


in other words, religion is infinite, like everything, because there are no separate things. religion is a big word with a lot of stuff in it. what you see? what you think about it? its a rorschach test, revealing your own mind, your own bias, your own view.

you don't have to be limited to one view. there are billions of people having unique experiences with what they call relgion. each person's relgion, spiritaulity, mysticism, warm bath, scary movie, etc etc is unique

we group experiences together and give them a name as if its a real thing

there is no such thing as religion, or if it is, its beyond anyone's ability to know. I had countless hours talking with someone about their religion, but I'll I can know is what I think their words meant. whatever was real about it lives inside of them and will die with them

the only religions you will ever know are the ones inside you


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Invisibleloladoreen
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28599993 - 12/27/23 04:13 PM (1 month, 15 hours ago)

Following
Intriguing conversation


--------------------
“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: loladoreen]
    #28600068 - 12/27/23 05:11 PM (1 month, 14 hours ago)

I was browsing through Vivekananda's many quotes on religion, and found this one interesting.

"The aim is to get rid of nature’s control over us. That is the goal of all religions."


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: syncro]
    #28600072 - 12/27/23 05:19 PM (1 month, 13 hours ago)

"The greatest religion is to be true to your own nature. Have faith in yourselves! If you do not exist, how can God exist, or anybody else?"

"The proof of one religion depends on the proof of all the rest."

"The proof of religion depends on the truth of the constitution of man, and not on any books."


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: syncro]
    #28600089 - 12/27/23 05:28 PM (1 month, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
I was browsing through Vivekananda's many quotes on religion, and found this one interesting.

"The aim is to get rid of nature’s control over us. That is the goal of all religions."



This is not the goal of the religion I practice, so to speak.
Rather the goal there is to appreciate and understand our nature, rather than to seek to escape it. In this likewise is even found the idea that nature is sacred.

At the most basic level Religion is methodological and spiritualism as well as mysticism are ideological.


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: Nillion]
    #28600287 - 12/27/23 08:37 PM (1 month, 10 hours ago)

In the quote referred to I think it would go with the four noble truths, about dukkha, and its successful alleviation or removal must lead to understanding of nature as we perceive it with separation, likes and dislikes - the basis of dukkha - and realization of subtle natures, source of senses and the like which are revealed and hidden in the degree of quality.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28600291 - 12/27/23 08:41 PM (1 month, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
In the quote referred to I think it would go with the four noble truths, about dukkha, and its successful alleviation or removal must lead to understanding of nature as we perceive it with separation, likes and dislikes - the basis of dukkha - and realization of subtle natures, source of senses and the like which are revealed and hidden in the degree of quality.



In that context I concede the point and agree with the original quote.


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Offlinesolarshroomster
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: Nillion] * 1
    #28600444 - 12/28/23 02:24 AM (1 month, 4 hours ago)

I think it's worth at least entertaining separating the Spirituality forum from the Mysticism forum, for educational purposes for lurkers that are likely to conflate the two. Or, at least, maybe making them two separate subcategories of a broader parent category, much like how "Mushroom Cultivation" has two subcategories. The two represent distinct categories of thought for me... one tends to capture a population of people who want to just be part of "feel good" pop movement (not anything necessarily wrong with that); the other, one that is dedicated to serious intuitive, introspective first-hand journeying.

It is not lightly that I write that I think, unfortunately, the influence of the former has put put a stain on genuine direct mystical experience, and it's worth clarifying a distinction. Just my opinion.


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28600555 - 12/28/23 07:06 AM (1 month, 7 minutes ago)

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
It is not lightly that I write that I think, unfortunately, the influence of the former has put put a stain on genuine direct mystical experience, and it's worth clarifying a distinction. Just my opinion.



I think you have a good point.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: solarshroomster] * 1
    #28600653 - 12/28/23 09:10 AM (30 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
I think it's worth at least entertaining separating the Spirituality forum from the Mysticism forum, for educational purposes for lurkers that are likely to conflate the two. Or, at least, maybe making them two separate subcategories of a broader parent category, much like how "Mushroom Cultivation" has two subcategories. The two represent distinct categories of thought for me... one tends to capture a population of people who want to just be part of "feel good" pop movement (not anything necessarily wrong with that); the other, one that is dedicated to serious intuitive, introspective first-hand journeying.

It is not lightly that I write that I think, unfortunately, the influence of the former has put put a stain on genuine direct mystical experience, and it's worth clarifying a distinction. Just my opinion.




And for long timers such as myself, it reminds me of something very different.

The Philosophy, Sociology and Psychology forum used to be merged with the Spirituality and Mysticism forum. Spiritual/mystical leaning folks didn't like having to defend their points of view, so the S&M forum was created as a safe haven. This was the first division. Now, I hear this post and cannot help but wonder: Are these artificial divisions representative of mystic principles? Are mystics incapable of communicating with those who disagree? Is being theologically singular the natural outcome of inward seeking, as the only theology one sees is their own? Is such a divisive spiral ended with another division? IMO no, there will always be another external problem/distraction which keeps one from the purity of inner pursuits. This seems to be the way of the hermit. 


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28600682 - 12/28/23 09:35 AM (30 days, 21 hours ago)

Good points too.

I had the impression that Solarshroomster was expressing that spiritual is a term more likely to be used by those who reject methods of spirituality. Like with people saying they are not religious but are spiritual as a rejection of religion, rather than as an affirmation of their own spiritual beliefs or endeavors. In this I think that those who affirm their engagement and pursuit of the mysteries, hence mystics, are frequently distinct from those who claim to be spiritual.

It seems that some people want to express that they have beliefs about spirits and spirituality while also rejecting traditional methods of spiritual development or cultivation. This seems invoked by the spiritual-but-not-religious label. On the other hand, those who delve into the mysteries and the occult typically practice some aspect or form of traditional spiritual development. I think that in the psychedelic community that there are a lot of people who see things through a spiritual filter, so to speak, but who do not deliberately practice any form of organized spirituality.

I think the forum structure makes sense as it is, I wouldn't consider changing it at this time. I rather like that one can post about the mysteries, spirituality and religion in the Philosophy section and be engaged in debates.

In many ways, as well, I view Philosophers and Mystics as similar and both are part of ancient tradition, which are often related and even intertwined but I see spirituality as a New Age phenomena that has no traditional or historical basis.


Edited by Nillion (12/28/23 09:40 AM)


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: Nillion] * 2
    #28600707 - 12/28/23 09:49 AM (30 days, 21 hours ago)

Being with similar people, having a group you get along with, tribalism; these are important elements in the development of identity I think. I've heard the idea expressed that the internet is so difficult in the modern age not because it creates echo chambers as once was feared it might. But rather, because it is a constant bombardment of differing ideologies. For many, this causes them to take up battle stations to defend their ideology against the onslaught of differing views. For others, it causes them confusion on which ideology is *the* ideology to take up. And so there is this ugly swirl of extremely combative and extremely uncertain individuals all over. I use the word 'extreme' to represent relative to the past, where a mono-culture was normative.

I'd rather argue for recognition of ^
and discuss that
than to continue splintering off
making new battle stations

Like who is going to moderate? What are the rules of a mysticism forum? What are the rules of a spirituality forum? It is a battle to maintain certain standards and keep the rest out. And the point of it as I understand it, is to create homogeneity. This forum is already a tiny sliver of people. To continue and become more homogeneous? It's not far removed from the most homogeneous mystical view there is, that of the hermit.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: Nillion]
    #28600741 - 12/28/23 10:22 AM (30 days, 20 hours ago)

I think the problem with this is who will be the gatekeeper of what is authentic 'mysticism' and inauthentic 'spirituality'?


isn't gatekeeping part of what creates relgions as used in op?


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Offlinesolarshroomster
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: Freedom]
    #28600774 - 12/28/23 10:59 AM (30 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
I think the problem with this is who will be the gatekeeper of what is authentic 'mysticism' and inauthentic 'spirituality'?


isn't gatekeeping part of what creates relgions as used in op?




A best faith effort will work. But there’s a clear difference.

Spirituality - popular, more pro-social “feel good”-oriented philosophy. This includes things such as yoga, mindfulness meditation, and general philosophical thinking

Mysticism - more esoteric, and based on direct experience of the divine.

We shouldn’t conflate the two. In a little bit, I’m going to set up a poll to determine whether we should separate these two groups or make a subcategory. It isn’t lightly that I’m doing so; it’s because I think a split is warranted for educational purposes. In general, I propose we maintain a “broad tent”, but when there are meaningful differences to be made between people who just go with feel good vibes and those who base their knowledge on direct experience, the difference (for the sake of educational knowledge), MUST be emphasized, at least in my view../ People shouldn’t be confused into thinking spirituality is the same thing as mysticism.

Poll to come.


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: Kickle]
    #28600775 - 12/28/23 10:59 AM (30 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Like who is going to moderate? What are the rules of a mysticism forum? What are the rules of a spirituality forum? It is a battle to maintain certain standards and keep the rest out.




That makes a great deal of sense.
I don't envy moderators and have refused the position at other forums in the past before.


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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: solarshroomster] * 1
    #28600809 - 12/28/23 11:37 AM (30 days, 19 hours ago)

Spirituality - popular, more pro-social “feel good”-oriented philosophy. This includes things such as yoga

:lol:

Words are funny


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28600816 - 12/28/23 11:49 AM (30 days, 19 hours ago)

Quote:

solarshroomster said:

A best faith effort will work. But there’s a clear difference.

Spirituality - popular, more pro-social “feel good”-oriented philosophy. This includes things such as yoga, mindfulness meditation, and general philosophical thinking

Mysticism - more esoteric, and based on direct experience of the divine.

We shouldn’t conflate the two. In a little bit, I’m going to set up a poll to determine whether we should separate these two groups or make a subcategory. It isn’t lightly that I’m doing so; it’s because I think a split is warranted for educational purposes. In general, I propose we maintain a “broad tent”, but when there are meaningful differences to be made between people who just go with feel good vibes and those who base their knowledge on direct experience, the difference (for the sake of educational knowledge), MUST be emphasized, at least in my view../ People shouldn’t be confused into thinking spirituality is the same thing as mysticism.

Poll to come.





Good luck getting consensus on what an authentic experience of the devine is.


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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: Freedom] * 1
    #28600823 - 12/28/23 11:55 AM (30 days, 19 hours ago)

Whatever it is, as a practitioner of yoga, meditation, and philosophical debate, any direct realizations I've had wouldn't be welcomed
:nicesmile:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: Kickle]
    #28600831 - 12/28/23 12:03 PM (30 days, 19 hours ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Whatever it is, as a practitioner of yoga, meditation, and philosophical debate, any direct realizations I've had wouldn't be welcomed




And yet the work of Goodman indicates that holding a posture and meditating can result in, what are surely able to be labeled as, mystical experiences.


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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: Freedom]
    #28600842 - 12/28/23 12:12 PM (30 days, 19 hours ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Good luck getting consensus on what an authentic experience of the devine is.




Not as hard as you might think. A mystical experience is defined as some combination of an experience where:
- sense of time & space are altered
- extraordinary ineffable perception of something beyond earthly perception (eg. seeing “new colors” that don’t exist on Earth, feeling like one has gained a new sense, telepathy of another order, etc.)
- Visonary revelatory understanding
- feelings or unity with the universe (alterations in self)
- Noetic feeling: utter conviction that one has glimpsed ultimate reality. Experiencers cannot be reasoned with, despite evidence otherwise. They are absolutely convinced (see “delusions of reference” vs. “ideas of reference”)

I’ll elaborate on this when I get home, but this should do the trick for now.

In order for one’s experience to qualify as “mystical”, perhaps we can insist that one explain why it meets the above criteria before posting (ie. “Although I didn’t feel a sense that time stopped, my experience was such that I felt as though the veil of reality was lifted and the universe was talking through me”). Proof will be in the pudding.

We need to move beyond the idea that mysticism is about “feel good” vibes and is about direct revelatory experience. It’s not just as simple as getting on a yoga mat, or praying to the four directions. Practice needs to be followed with actual experience to meet the criteria of mysticism.


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Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28600852 - 12/28/23 12:29 PM (30 days, 18 hours ago)

Which one of those criteria is uncommon on a psychedelic drug forum called the Shroomery?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28600900 - 12/28/23 01:20 PM (30 days, 17 hours ago)

'We need to move beyond the idea that mysticism is about “feel good” vibes and is about direct revelatory experience'

The experience almost always feels good unless disharmonies in the body mind are preventing it. Bliss is its nature, of pure mind or of the pure qualities, sattva, sublimities, vision. Mindfulness brings the same. The magics and the esoteric are the same - edit added - same as the yogas and devotion etc.


Edited by syncro (12/28/23 01:27 PM)


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