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Nillion
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Good points too.
I had the impression that Solarshroomster was expressing that spiritual is a term more likely to be used by those who reject methods of spirituality. Like with people saying they are not religious but are spiritual as a rejection of religion, rather than as an affirmation of their own spiritual beliefs or endeavors. In this I think that those who affirm their engagement and pursuit of the mysteries, hence mystics, are frequently distinct from those who claim to be spiritual.
It seems that some people want to express that they have beliefs about spirits and spirituality while also rejecting traditional methods of spiritual development or cultivation. This seems invoked by the spiritual-but-not-religious label. On the other hand, those who delve into the mysteries and the occult typically practice some aspect or form of traditional spiritual development. I think that in the psychedelic community that there are a lot of people who see things through a spiritual filter, so to speak, but who do not deliberately practice any form of organized spirituality.
I think the forum structure makes sense as it is, I wouldn't consider changing it at this time. I rather like that one can post about the mysteries, spirituality and religion in the Philosophy section and be engaged in debates.
In many ways, as well, I view Philosophers and Mystics as similar and both are part of ancient tradition, which are often related and even intertwined but I see spirituality as a New Age phenomena that has no traditional or historical basis.
Edited by Nillion (12/28/23 09:40 AM)
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Kickle
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: Nillion] 2
#28600707 - 12/28/23 09:49 AM (30 days, 21 hours ago) |
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Being with similar people, having a group you get along with, tribalism; these are important elements in the development of identity I think. I've heard the idea expressed that the internet is so difficult in the modern age not because it creates echo chambers as once was feared it might. But rather, because it is a constant bombardment of differing ideologies. For many, this causes them to take up battle stations to defend their ideology against the onslaught of differing views. For others, it causes them confusion on which ideology is *the* ideology to take up. And so there is this ugly swirl of extremely combative and extremely uncertain individuals all over. I use the word 'extreme' to represent relative to the past, where a mono-culture was normative.
I'd rather argue for recognition of ^ and discuss that than to continue splintering off making new battle stations
Like who is going to moderate? What are the rules of a mysticism forum? What are the rules of a spirituality forum? It is a battle to maintain certain standards and keep the rest out. And the point of it as I understand it, is to create homogeneity. This forum is already a tiny sliver of people. To continue and become more homogeneous? It's not far removed from the most homogeneous mystical view there is, that of the hermit.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: Nillion]
#28600741 - 12/28/23 10:22 AM (30 days, 20 hours ago) |
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I think the problem with this is who will be the gatekeeper of what is authentic 'mysticism' and inauthentic 'spirituality'?
isn't gatekeeping part of what creates relgions as used in op?
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solarshroomster
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: Freedom]
#28600774 - 12/28/23 10:59 AM (30 days, 20 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: I think the problem with this is who will be the gatekeeper of what is authentic 'mysticism' and inauthentic 'spirituality'?
isn't gatekeeping part of what creates relgions as used in op?
A best faith effort will work. But there’s a clear difference.
Spirituality - popular, more pro-social “feel good”-oriented philosophy. This includes things such as yoga, mindfulness meditation, and general philosophical thinking
Mysticism - more esoteric, and based on direct experience of the divine.
We shouldn’t conflate the two. In a little bit, I’m going to set up a poll to determine whether we should separate these two groups or make a subcategory. It isn’t lightly that I’m doing so; it’s because I think a split is warranted for educational purposes. In general, I propose we maintain a “broad tent”, but when there are meaningful differences to be made between people who just go with feel good vibes and those who base their knowledge on direct experience, the difference (for the sake of educational knowledge), MUST be emphasized, at least in my view../ People shouldn’t be confused into thinking spirituality is the same thing as mysticism.
Poll to come.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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Nillion
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: Kickle]
#28600775 - 12/28/23 10:59 AM (30 days, 20 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: Like who is going to moderate? What are the rules of a mysticism forum? What are the rules of a spirituality forum? It is a battle to maintain certain standards and keep the rest out.
That makes a great deal of sense. I don't envy moderators and have refused the position at other forums in the past before.
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Kickle
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Spirituality - popular, more pro-social “feel good”-oriented philosophy. This includes things such as yoga

Words are funny
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Quote:
solarshroomster said:
A best faith effort will work. But there’s a clear difference.
Spirituality - popular, more pro-social “feel good”-oriented philosophy. This includes things such as yoga, mindfulness meditation, and general philosophical thinking
Mysticism - more esoteric, and based on direct experience of the divine.
We shouldn’t conflate the two. In a little bit, I’m going to set up a poll to determine whether we should separate these two groups or make a subcategory. It isn’t lightly that I’m doing so; it’s because I think a split is warranted for educational purposes. In general, I propose we maintain a “broad tent”, but when there are meaningful differences to be made between people who just go with feel good vibes and those who base their knowledge on direct experience, the difference (for the sake of educational knowledge), MUST be emphasized, at least in my view../ People shouldn’t be confused into thinking spirituality is the same thing as mysticism.
Poll to come.
Good luck getting consensus on what an authentic experience of the devine is.
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Kickle
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: Freedom] 1
#28600823 - 12/28/23 11:55 AM (30 days, 19 hours ago) |
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Whatever it is, as a practitioner of yoga, meditation, and philosophical debate, any direct realizations I've had wouldn't be welcomed
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Nillion
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: Kickle]
#28600831 - 12/28/23 12:03 PM (30 days, 19 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: Whatever it is, as a practitioner of yoga, meditation, and philosophical debate, any direct realizations I've had wouldn't be welcomed
And yet the work of Goodman indicates that holding a posture and meditating can result in, what are surely able to be labeled as, mystical experiences.
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solarshroomster
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Re: Spirituality vs. Mysticism [Re: Freedom]
#28600842 - 12/28/23 12:12 PM (30 days, 19 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: Good luck getting consensus on what an authentic experience of the devine is.
Not as hard as you might think. A mystical experience is defined as some combination of an experience where: - sense of time & space are altered - extraordinary ineffable perception of something beyond earthly perception (eg. seeing “new colors” that don’t exist on Earth, feeling like one has gained a new sense, telepathy of another order, etc.) - Visonary revelatory understanding - feelings or unity with the universe (alterations in self) - Noetic feeling: utter conviction that one has glimpsed ultimate reality. Experiencers cannot be reasoned with, despite evidence otherwise. They are absolutely convinced (see “delusions of reference” vs. “ideas of reference”)
I’ll elaborate on this when I get home, but this should do the trick for now.
In order for one’s experience to qualify as “mystical”, perhaps we can insist that one explain why it meets the above criteria before posting (ie. “Although I didn’t feel a sense that time stopped, my experience was such that I felt as though the veil of reality was lifted and the universe was talking through me”). Proof will be in the pudding.
We need to move beyond the idea that mysticism is about “feel good” vibes and is about direct revelatory experience. It’s not just as simple as getting on a yoga mat, or praying to the four directions. Practice needs to be followed with actual experience to meet the criteria of mysticism.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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Kickle
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Which one of those criteria is uncommon on a psychedelic drug forum called the Shroomery?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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syncro
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'We need to move beyond the idea that mysticism is about “feel good” vibes and is about direct revelatory experience'
The experience almost always feels good unless disharmonies in the body mind are preventing it. Bliss is its nature, of pure mind or of the pure qualities, sattva, sublimities, vision. Mindfulness brings the same. The magics and the esoteric are the same - edit added - same as the yogas and devotion etc.
Edited by syncro (12/28/23 01:27 PM)
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