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Rahz
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Intelligence makes us stupid 2
#28554668 - 11/24/23 06:05 AM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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A saying that I came up with a few years back: "Man is not as smart as he thinks he is, and too smart for his own good".
Just read this, a more elaborate way of putting it.
“It is man's intelligence that makes him so often behave more stupidly than the beasts. ... Man is impelled to invent theories to account for what happens in the world. Unfortunately, he is not quite intelligent enough, in most cases, to find correct explanations. So that when he acts on his theories, he behaves very often like a lunatic. Thus, no animal is clever enough, when there is a drought, to imagine that the rain is being withheld by evil spirits, or as punishment for its transgressions. Therefore you never see animals going through the absurd and often horrible fooleries of magic and religion. No horse, for example would kill one of its foals to make the wind change direction. Dogs do not ritually urinate in the hope of persuading heaven to do the same and send down rain. Asses do not bray a liturgy to cloudless skies. Nor do cats attempt, by abstinence from cat's meat, to wheedle the feline spirits into benevolence. Only man behaves with such gratuitous folly. It is the price he has to pay for being intelligent but not, as yet, intelligent enough.” ― Aldous Huxley
It is this paradox of stupidity through intelligence that brings about the necessity of introspection and humility.
Man's existence is one of foolish thoughts, punctuated by brief moments of lucidity.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Re: Intelligence makes us stupid [Re: Rahz] 1
#28554679 - 11/24/23 06:38 AM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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I have a squishy ball which I keep mostly deflated in my chair where I use my computer. It helps my back a lot. My 3 yr old grandson likes to have me blow it up and we toss it around for fun, and later I deflate it again to be a lumbar "posturepedic" accessory in my chair.
He tries to blow it up himself but it keeps deflating before he can put in the stopper.
so frustrating.
yesterday he noticed the humidifier making a wind, and he held the squishy ball with the stopper out in the path of the wind for a while, wondering why it did not just fill up.
There is so much independent thought and intelligence that goes into that little story that it is mind boggling.
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Kickle
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Re: Intelligence makes us stupid [Re: Rahz]
#28560951 - 11/29/23 03:29 PM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: A saying that I came up with a few years back: "Man is not as smart as he thinks he is, and too smart for his own good".
Just read this, a more elaborate way of putting it.
“It is man's intelligence that makes him so often behave more stupidly than the beasts. ... Man is impelled to invent theories to account for what happens in the world. Unfortunately, he is not quite intelligent enough, in most cases, to find correct explanations. So that when he acts on his theories, he behaves very often like a lunatic. Thus, no animal is clever enough, when there is a drought, to imagine that the rain is being withheld by evil spirits, or as punishment for its transgressions. Therefore you never see animals going through the absurd and often horrible fooleries of magic and religion. No horse, for example would kill one of its foals to make the wind change direction. Dogs do not ritually urinate in the hope of persuading heaven to do the same and send down rain. Asses do not bray a liturgy to cloudless skies. Nor do cats attempt, by abstinence from cat's meat, to wheedle the feline spirits into benevolence. Only man behaves with such gratuitous folly. It is the price he has to pay for being intelligent but not, as yet, intelligent enough.” ― Aldous Huxley
It is this paradox of stupidity through intelligence that brings about the necessity of introspection and humility.
Man's existence is one of foolish thoughts, punctuated by brief moments of lucidity.
I dunno man, I think this both overestimates the intelligence of man and underestimates the intelligence of many animals. And it does this all while assuming very specific overlapping experiences which would funnel into these intellects for decision making.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Rahz
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Re: Intelligence makes us stupid [Re: Kickle]
#28561723 - 11/30/23 06:33 AM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
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A good point might be that animals don't institute and codify their foolishness.
But you have a point. Animals probably have perceptual difficulties that arise through intelligence. I'm not sure how I have overestimated man's intelligence.
I recently learned that prairie dogs have complex language, to the point of having specific sounds for specific colors.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Re: Intelligence makes us stupid [Re: Rahz]
#28561741 - 11/30/23 07:00 AM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: ... I recently learned that prairie dogs have complex language, to the point of having specific sounds for specific colors.
do prarie dogs from different counties use the same sound-word for "red"?
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Kickle
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Re: Intelligence makes us stupid [Re: Rahz]
#28561747 - 11/30/23 07:06 AM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
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Are there really that many differences between human behavior and other animals?
The majority of our time is spent eating, sleeping, engaging in mating rituals, and gathering resources. These activities don't seem all that unique to me I guess. So it follows to me that pointing at intelligence as a critical difference is overestimating the role of intelligence in human behavior. Also if human intelligence were so unique and worked against these basic behaviors, we wouldn't survive. So declaring human intelligence as making us uniquely foolish goes against the evidence of survival as a species. It seems more likely that as a species intelligence is utilized by fundamental animal behavior, not somehow distinct from. This is IMO where the overestimation stems from. That human intelligence has somehow separated itself from obvious animal behaviors.
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Rahz
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
Rahz said: ... I recently learned that prairie dogs have complex language, to the point of having specific sounds for specific colors.
do prarie dogs from different counties use the same sound-word for "red"?
https://www.animalcognition.org/2015/03/11/the-linguistic-genius-of-prairie-dogs/
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Re: Intelligence makes us stupid [Re: Kickle]
#28561757 - 11/30/23 07:17 AM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
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yeah, but while we do the things that animals do, we also carry on dialogs, man of which are honestly foolish. unlike this one of course
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Kickle
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Sure. Id replace foolish with silly but then say that depending on perspective there is plenty of silly animal stuff to look at. Some of the bird dances look down right absurd for example. The weight and mobility issues of a peacock's feathers are pretty nonsensical as well from a predator-prey perspective.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Rahz
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Re: Intelligence makes us stupid [Re: Kickle]
#28561773 - 11/30/23 07:40 AM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: Are there really that many differences between human behavior and other animals?
The majority of our time is spent eating, sleeping, engaging in mating rituals, and gathering resources. These activities don't seem all that unique to me I guess. So it follows to me that pointing at intelligence as a critical difference is overestimating the role of intelligence in human behavior. Also if human intelligence were so unique and worked against these basic behaviors, we wouldn't survive. So declaring human intelligence as making us uniquely foolish goes against the evidence of survival as a species.
Sure, though a matter of degree.
While it's not possible to any fine degree to know the complexity and delusionality of beliefs among other species, the lack of human intelligence (a matter of degree) is what prevents them from codifying in the way humans do. Prairie dogs for instance are unlikely to sacrifice their virgins to a sky god to keep coyotes away.
It will be a long time before prairie dogs use chemistry to refine substances that cause pleasure and addiction/death, or to weave grass into sun visors. They're not even making beer yet and while their eyebrows are bushy they would likely benefit from additional shading while outside their burrows.
Interesting fact, at the start of the petrol industry gasoline was a waste by-product that was dumped into rivers and streams.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Kickle
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Re: Intelligence makes us stupid [Re: Rahz]
#28561792 - 11/30/23 07:56 AM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
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Survival drives behavior but all behaviors change because the needs of survival change. Intelligence is part of survival but not determinant. Nor is it more or less foolish IMO.
I agree that humans are more reliant on intelligence to survive than some other species, depending on how one defines intelligence. From the perspective of codification I'd say humans are lackluster compared to bees, ants, etc.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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blessed


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Re: Intelligence makes us stupid [Re: Rahz]
#28561795 - 11/30/23 07:58 AM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
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I'd say it's not so much (or only), our intelligence that makes humans stupid, but that we are, as a noticeable trait (of a species), stupid because of the simple fact that we just are (regardless of what we say, do or think).
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blessed


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Re: Intelligence makes us stupid [Re: Rahz]
#28561804 - 11/30/23 08:04 AM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: While it's not possible to any fine degree to know the complexity and delusionality of beliefs among other species, the lack of human intelligence (a matter of degree) is what prevents them from codifying in the way humans do. Prairie dogs for instance are unlikely to sacrifice their virgins to a sky god to keep coyotes away.
So are you saying that people who believe in God's are stupid?
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Rahz
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Re: Intelligence makes us stupid [Re: blessed]
#28561830 - 11/30/23 08:26 AM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
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Can you explain the intelligence of sacrificing virgins to increase crop fertility?
At the same time, intelligence is displayed on a spectrum rather than in stark duality so I would suggest that religious people are generally less intelligent than the non-religious rather than attempting to draw a line between the smart and stupid based on religion.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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blessed


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Re: Intelligence makes us stupid [Re: Rahz]
#28561929 - 11/30/23 09:39 AM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
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Hello Rahz.
The reason for my question came from some of your points in this thread.
It comes across to me that the main part of your statement "Intelligence makes us stupid" and point, is the stupidity of human's to believe in a spaghetti flying meatball guy and act accordingly with virgin sacrifice, something that animals don't demonstrate to do and hence making us humans not so bright. I'd confidently say that there are many, many, many dumb, stupid delusional atheist, but I don't call them stupid because they don't believe in fairy tales, I'd call them stupid because they just are. No matter what it is they say, do, or think, they are stupid and they do this on a daily basses without believing in any fairy tales.
So I'd have to disagree with you on the argument you have presented.
Quote:
Rahz said: Can you explain the intelligence of sacrificing virgins to increase crop fertility?
I think you've got that wrong, the people who do such things do it from out of their belief system and isn't actually based on from their level of intelligence.
but to answer your question,
As I don't consider it intelligent to sacrifice virgins to increase crop fertility, I have no explanation to explain their justification for doing so. I will add however, that I believe in the God of the Bible and have never felt the need to offer a virgin to make my tomato's grow better.
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Rahz
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Re: Intelligence makes us stupid [Re: blessed]
#28561961 - 11/30/23 10:03 AM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
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I'll suggest you are missing the point, in that it takes a certain degree of intelligence to use reasoning and an incomplete data set to formulate assumptions/inferences and act on them.
Being able to infer things is a sign of intelligence but it often leads to stupidity among humans. I suppose animals also do this to a degree but it's hard to top the foolishness of humanity IMO.
Is the basis of Christianity that God sacrificed a virgin?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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DisoRDeR
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Re: Intelligence makes us stupid [Re: Kickle] 1
#28562170 - 11/30/23 01:32 PM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
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I have been tossing around the phrase most people are wrong about most things most of the time for a while now. I find it helps me anchor in introspection and humility when navigating ideas. An exception to this is the direct application of skills to manipulate the world into desired forms, as the feedback from that is relatively immediate and apparent.
Comparing human and other animal intelligence is tough without scoping their worldview a bit. The differences you and Kickle are discussing may have something to do with the animal's apprehension of the context of its existence. Human intelligence proffers existential problems which generate a vast, dark jungle around us.
The anxiety of vulnerability in the wilderness is not exclusive to humans. Our ability to conjure comforting incorrectness is maybe akin to mental nest building. Humans' existential problems seem to generate a survival concern that extends orthogonally to biological survival. Now identity and worldview must be protected lest we fall out of our nest.
It is easy and perhaps comforting to build a bulwark of ideas into the darkness that lend a sense of control, but hard to know how effective they were until death or dawn. The propagation of wild ideas continues, so long as they don't interfere with the process of survival through reproduction and repropagation.
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lostintimenspc
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Re: Intelligence makes us stupid [Re: DisoRDeR]
#28562200 - 11/30/23 01:52 PM (1 month, 27 days ago) |
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Sounds like you're frustrated.
Try focusing on feeling-thoughts or thinking with feeling, or trying to garner experience, rather than logically working things out.
Don't worry I get like that all the time because I have dedicated my life to understanding it.
-------------------- LSD, mushrooms and DMT are different structural levels within the same magically simulated mystery sometimes blandly called 'life' Your life, your call.
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Kickle
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Re: Intelligence makes us stupid [Re: DisoRDeR]
#28562207 - 11/30/23 01:57 PM (1 month, 27 days ago) |
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hey disorder
Our ability to conjure comforting incorrectness...
I think Icelander once brought this up as well, but when survival is at stake incorrect guesses lead to death. And so in survival situations there is seldom such wild speculation as you may find on a Thursday afternoon appearing on Twitter from someone removed from most real threats.
Ever watch a housecat make the mundane into something abnormally important?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Rahz
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Re: Intelligence makes us stupid [Re: DisoRDeR]
#28562244 - 11/30/23 02:31 PM (1 month, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
DisoRDeR said: I have been tossing around the phrase most people are wrong about most things most of the time for a while now. I find it helps me anchor in introspection and humility when navigating ideas. An exception to this is the direct application of skills to manipulate the world into desired forms, as the feedback from that is relatively immediate and apparent.
Comparing human and other animal intelligence is tough without scoping their worldview a bit. The differences you and Kickle are discussing may have something to do with the animal's apprehension of the context of its existence. Human intelligence proffers existential problems which generate a vast, dark jungle around us.
The anxiety of vulnerability in the wilderness is not exclusive to humans. Our ability to conjure comforting incorrectness is maybe akin to mental nest building. Humans' existential problems seem to generate a survival concern that extends orthogonally to biological survival. Now identity and worldview must be protected lest we fall out of our nest.
It is easy and perhaps comforting to build a bulwark of ideas into the darkness that lend a sense of control, but hard to know how effective they were until death or dawn. The propagation of wild ideas continues, so long as they don't interfere with the process of survival through reproduction and repropagation.
Well said. I began to question my religion, or rather reject it, in my early teens. Rather than being free it simply removed the assurances I had been given. It was almost 30 years later before I began to find appreciation in the unknown (emptiness), and acceptance of my ignorance.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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