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OfflineNeurotech
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Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight.
    #28553555 - 11/23/23 05:59 AM (2 months, 4 days ago)



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: Neurotech]
    #28553593 - 11/23/23 06:47 AM (2 months, 4 days ago)

do you have a good link?
is this what you had in mind?
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/biocentrism-rethinking-time-space-consciousness-and-the-illusion-of-death-1.3789414

I think Lanza is a flake.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28554572 - 11/24/23 01:58 AM (2 months, 3 days ago)

yes the mind is the electromagnetic and chemical matter in the brain
that is all we are
so we only see ourselves ever
when i see this screen that is matter in my brain
and it is me


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with our love with our love we could save the world


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: Ferdinando]
    #28554688 - 11/24/23 06:46 AM (2 months, 3 days ago)

yes - it is you in the ocean of all of us.
not just you in the electrochemical response region of mental contents.

mental contents is always a mix of external stimuli (i.e. both not you, eg. outside your body, and you inside your flesh) AND perceptions from your memory (which is memory of both you and your impressions of the outside world which is not you)

Be careful about assuming things are all you. we are a mix, a process of mixing, and well equipped to take care of the garden in which we live.


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OfflinefractalFox
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28554747 - 11/24/23 08:10 AM (2 months, 3 days ago)

What's your take on the non-dual belief that the boundary between outside/inside you is illusionary?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: fractalFox]
    #28555489 - 11/24/23 09:57 PM (2 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

fractalFox said:
What's your take on the non-dual belief that the boundary between outside/inside you is illusionary?



I am not sure about the particular non-dual belief you mean, however, my take is that in our minds, there is no separation, in fact, every memory engram is a mix of all mental contents of a mind moment (citta) ~1/10th of a second of experience - signals of which which come from within and without, and no mental content is 100% in-stuff or 100% outstuff.

even dreams, which are disconnected from live input of outstuff, are formed of the mix of the in and out mental contents that is saved in memory.


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Onlineepilectric
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28555992 - 11/25/23 12:38 PM (2 months, 1 day ago)



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OfflineNeurotech
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28566693 - 12/03/23 12:16 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
do you have a good link?
is this what you had in mind?
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/biocentrism-rethinking-time-space-consciousness-and-the-illusion-of-death-1.3789414

I think Lanza is a flake.





yES, THAT IS THE IDEA. mOST RECENTLY i CAME ACROSS THIS: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-consciousness-part-of-the-fabric-of-the-universe1/


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: Neurotech]
    #28566741 - 12/03/23 12:53 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

ok then


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OfflineBardy
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: fractalFox] * 1
    #28566803 - 12/03/23 01:49 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

fractalFox said:
What's your take on the non-dual belief that the boundary between outside/inside you is illusionary?



I believe this is true, but it is true only in the sense that there is no boundary in perception. There is an outside world, which we are part of, that is not what we call “me/us/I”. But for any one of us, all one’s perceptions are part of one’s being, and there is no boundary.

So what Ferdinando said is true if they’re just talking about their perception of the world, their consciousness.

That is my take on non-dualism at the moment.


Edited by Bardy (12/03/23 01:53 PM)


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Offlinelostintimenspc
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: Bardy]
    #28566883 - 12/03/23 02:57 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Things are not you. That is too easy.

Think about how irrelevant it is, for others to be you. Could it get more irrelevant? Could they?


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OfflineBardy
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: lostintimenspc] * 1
    #28566898 - 12/03/23 03:08 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

What is you? Where do you begin? Where do you end?


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: Bardy]
    #28566965 - 12/03/23 03:57 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

The principle of these theories seem nonsensical to me. Junk religion masquerading as science.


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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: Northerner]
    #28566988 - 12/03/23 04:09 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
The principle of these theories seem nonsensical to me. Junk religion masquerading as science.



which theories?
am I missing the thread of this?


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28567015 - 12/03/23 04:33 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

I was referring to the two articles linked there about panpsychism etc and what it theorizes.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: Northerner] * 1
    #28567025 - 12/03/23 04:37 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

oh yeah, trendy mental vapor perhaps


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: Northerner]
    #28567082 - 12/03/23 05:15 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

I tried to pick particular lines out of the articles to bring attention to, but it's basically every line in both of them that I would end up dissecting.

Like this nonsense.

“Physical science is, in principle, incapable of telling us the complete story.” Of the various alternatives that have been put forward, he says that “panpsychism is our best bet.”

Oh... so no one knows how life and consciousness came about, so his theory of how it happened must be the best. How about an omnipotent and omnipresent Spaghetti Monster? That seems like the best bet to me.

:facepalm:

Next he's gonna be starting "research" facilities and getting followers. Maybe start collecting money to further his teachings.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: Northerner]
    #28567100 - 12/03/23 05:25 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

it's about gambling obviously.
place your bets

I'd rather go with charity than gambling


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OfflineBardy
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: Northerner]
    #28567428 - 12/03/23 08:00 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
The principle of these theories seem nonsensical to me. Junk religion masquerading as science.




The principle of panpsychism seems nonsensical how? I didn’t read those articles, and I’m sure there’s a lot of bullshit that surrounds it, and I know there is no real evidence to support it so saying it is the “best bet” is pretty silly. But I’m not sure how the basic principle of panpsychism is nonsensical. It’s just a vague hypothesis that consciousness might be a property of all matter that just becomes stronger or weaker in different configurations isn’t it? That’s what I thought it was anyway.

It’s seems like a vague hypothesis that they don’t know how to test to me. So yeah, it’s not a science at this point in time as far as I know.

How consciousness arises from matter is still a complete mystery. And at what point does it arise? We’re all made from inanimate matter… somehow inanimate matter + inanimate matter + …  = consciousness.


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: Northerner]
    #28567486 - 12/03/23 08:23 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
I was referring to the two articles linked there about panpsychism etc and what it theorizes.




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OfflineBardy
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: Northerner]
    #28567498 - 12/03/23 08:36 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Ohh specifically to those papers… gotcha


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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: Bardy] * 1
    #28567552 - 12/03/23 09:25 PM (1 month, 24 days ago)

meh. People say a lot but very little. Explain how consciousness arises from nonconscious matter.. It's like expecting an answer to "What is the number 1?" by being able to represent it in an infinite number of ways. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts, otherwise asymptotes wouldn't exist. Explain consciousness with... consciousness. Circulus vitiosus


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OfflineBardy
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: Blue_Lux]
    #28567750 - 12/04/23 01:47 AM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Blue_Lux said:
meh. People say a lot but very little. Explain how consciousness arises from nonconscious matter.. It's like expecting an answer to "What is the number 1?" by being able to represent it in an infinite number of ways. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts, otherwise asymptotes wouldn't exist. Explain consciousness with... consciousness. Circulus vitiosus




That’s certainly what it seems like. But maybe the matter is conscious to some degree? And maybe there will be a satisfying explanation one day… it’s hard to imagine, but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: Bardy]
    #28567793 - 12/04/23 04:26 AM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Bardy said:
...

How consciousness arises from matter is still a complete mystery. And at what point does it arise? We’re all made from inanimate matter… somehow inanimate matter + inanimate matter + …  = consciousness.



Like I said in my endless effort to dispel the complete mystery, the ongoing sequence of associative memory formation and perceptions is achieved by interconnecting neurons on a reflex basis, which can be demonstrated by this https://redgreenvines.github.io/reflex/

it is not like mixing fluids, the organic material has to grow into a brain like structure with at least 2 types of neurons, those that are excitable from sensation, and those that interconnect the excited neurons into momentary gestalt frames of experience memory engrams: this becomes our familiarity map which we use to navigate life.

It starts with bilaterally symmetrical Animalia 1/2 billion years ago and has steadily become more gifted with sensation types and expressive bodies. Initially associative mentation was just about now squirm left, and now wriggle right.

It's OK if you cannot comprehend what I have been saying; the self that reflects honestly the self is not a god given ability for any one of us, it takes intense curiosity and application to awaken it.


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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28567832 - 12/04/23 06:03 AM (1 month, 24 days ago)

No offense, but do you really believe what you just said? You can stick a microscopic point in front of microscopic organisms, and they will react to it. It is clear cockroaches are conscious to some degree. I'd say it is based on the principle of consistency that all life has experiences. Complex experiences with complex memory and language is our consciousness. Do you think animals and micro organisms are automata? and what then if no CNS? Robotic clump of cells?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: Blue_Lux]
    #28567920 - 12/04/23 07:55 AM (1 month, 24 days ago)

yes to cockroaches, and yes to microscopic multicellular bilaterally symmetrical (or radially symmetrical) creatures (all of which are capable of some learning and have a nervous system);
no to single celled creatures which move based upon chemical and energetic tropisms and are not equipped to retain experiential memory.

this is not a belief, it is an observation.

why would I take offense of a differing opinion, no matter how obtuse?


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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28567926 - 12/04/23 08:00 AM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Take a look at for instance, as perhaps you already have, Exodeoxyribonuclease V... Wtf is that? Life is not even close to being understood. Sure, we get the function... But comprehending the being of such a thing? Can anyone really say they understand this stuff? Cellular structures are utterly enigmatic. I think the idea that being just spontaneously pops into existence as a property should have been left in the early 18th century, in the dumpster of history. People are so phobic of anything giving any credence whatsoever to some medieval theology that they cannot see what stares them directly in the face. Intelligence is not unique to us, and the sheer complexity of life, and not merely 'conplexity.' ... This emergent consciousness crap is just the next installment of determinism and roboticism of humanity. And the same is to be said about those who claim to know ANYTHING about "what" consciousness IS. That is a fraudulent, ideological question based on faulty logical premises. It is the wrong question, just as Michel Foucault said asking about free will is the wrong question.

I am also not impressed by sesquipedalian, polysyllabic jargon.


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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28567927 - 12/04/23 08:00 AM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Yet you are imposing your own belief drawing a conclusion where there isn't one...


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: Blue_Lux] * 1
    #28567946 - 12/04/23 08:19 AM (1 month, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Blue_Lux said:
Yet you are imposing your own belief drawing a conclusion where there isn't one...



In the context of what I put forward regarding memory formation and perception, a brain structure equivalent of cortex and thalamic gateway from somatic neural signals is necessary.

the smallest creatures with this are possibly tiny nematodes, but certainly flatworms.

you might be in a position to appreciate logic that stands on its own,
JavaScript is a form of software, and this https://redgreenvines.github.io/reflex/ illustrates how both memory formation and perception can be achieved in a tiny neural fabric. If you can read that sort of thing look at this function which is iterated for each branch of each activated pyramidal neuron in a mind moment:
line 814:  function activateAxonBranchesOf(pyram){}

In living tissue this is not iterated, but it all advances together organically and synchronously, so it is even simpler than my software simulation. Prior to writing this little bit of code, I could have agreed with you about myself being convinced via belief, however, this is more like math, and modeling rather than postulation and bombasting.

I wrote the code to attempt to show people what I was thinking, as an illustration, I did not really expect that it would work nearly as well as it does, but there you have it. eureka...


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28567972 - 12/04/23 08:49 AM (1 month, 23 days ago)

after being exposed to the image with textual writing near the bottom
the first image shows some of the branches reactivating the memory when only a part of the graphic is provided as a sensory signal


however we can still read the text that is appearing below, and if more than 3 cycles are provided, even more of the text would appear more clearly as the reactivated neurons energize axon branches ramifying into a more fulsome perception of the original engram.


this particular test sample is good because it illustrates multiple channels of mental content, and the text can represent sounds or a complete sentence sequence, or body motion that became part of an interlinked engram.

Engrams of moments of experience interlink all areas of the cortex pretty evenly.


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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28568074 - 12/04/23 10:16 AM (1 month, 23 days ago)

oooh so shocking! 

:notimpressed:


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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28568090 - 12/04/23 10:27 AM (1 month, 23 days ago)



29:40

:shocked2:

:nut:


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OfflineBardy
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28568302 - 12/04/23 01:12 PM (1 month, 23 days ago)

Your website keeps glitching out when I try to visit it.

I understand that it could be true that consciousness arises from neuronal networks/communication or whatever you want to call it. I’m not sure how you prove that though.


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OfflineBardy
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: Bardy]
    #28568305 - 12/04/23 01:14 PM (1 month, 23 days ago)

“Momentary gestalt frames of experience memory engrams” is the only part that makes absolutely no sense to me.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: Bardy]
    #28568396 - 12/04/23 02:21 PM (1 month, 23 days ago)

The page should work, it is in GitHub. It's extremely reliable.

I seem to get the site fine on my computer using any browser, the phone works but is too small a screen to really explore this with.
what browser are you using?



when the page settles (after it learns the first image using a red field energy simulation and branches) click in the upper left image and watch the perception unfold from that sample.

engram means the brain wide configuration of neural links for a moment of memory - which is a memory of experience - including vision, sound, thought, pressure, heat, smell, pain, pleasure, all of that which is noticeable in a moment becomes linked together into an engram. Memory is made up of these associations of things that happened together at the same time. The frame size is about 1/10th of a second more or less, and a sequence of memory is like a movie. All of our physical expressions and speech are memory movies emerging in real time from perceived cues at 1/10th of a second.

the program demonstrates making an engram from an image, and it lets you pick a part of the image as a sample from which to test perception (it varies from part to part) - and you can see the perception emerge (as a large part of the original engram is reactivated by the sample) - just like it does in our minds when we notice a part of something familiar.


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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28568861 - 12/04/23 08:11 PM (1 month, 23 days ago)

Hey RGV have u read Voltaire's Candide?

and also there was something else I wanted to ask you, but I forgot. darn


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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28568880 - 12/04/23 08:20 PM (1 month, 23 days ago)

Ahh yes I remember. I was taking a shower and I was thinking about if puritanical religious views about sex and nudity is really responsible for people being so dirty in the middle ages... They got rid of those huge baths they used to have, and they were really methodical about their baths with multiple rooms, procedures, etc. What do you think about this? And furthermore what do you think the social impact would be if people did see each other naked in a way like this which is not sexual. The Romans were uncircumcised and so male genitalia was covered so to speak by the foreskin, and the Romans and Greeks thought an exposed glans was inappropriate... Perhaps this means something? I think people would have personally thought someone was weird if they were ogling people and aroused. I wonder too if the Romans were not therefore as easily aroused by nudity because of these baths. What do you think?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Science catches up to Buddhism and psychedelic insight. [Re: Blue_Lux]
    #28568928 - 12/04/23 08:51 PM (1 month, 23 days ago)

When civilization peaks, we have abundant water and baths, and when it tanks we have mud and poverty.
the plumbing does not last forever.

I don't think it means anything beyond available resources.
daily ablutions are a great thing.


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