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InvisibleRahz
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Paradigm beyond economic growth
    #28552559 - 11/22/23 08:34 AM (2 months, 5 days ago)

I've made the comment before that Communism, Socialism, Capitalism are all flawed because they're all created and instituted by humans, but in principle they're all good systems.

Going further, even with flaws considered they're all capable of being wildly successful. The metric I use is "the ability to push population growth beyond Earth's carrying capacity".

Things can get sticky when we try to examine which systems have brought in the most innovation and technical progress (Capitalism) but the point of this thread is not to determine which system, by virtue of being the most successful, is pushing humanity toward a population die off the fastest because they're all capable and in practice doing so.

Of note, China had some success limiting population growth with their One Child Policy. That policy was contentious. Penalizing people for doing what nature intended is considered cruel and unusual punishment by many. I think a two child policy would have been both more fair and more sustainable over the long run. They jumped to a 3 child policy for a few years until abandoning the policy entirely. There have been two child policies in other countries. All were eventually abandoned.

What do you think about a worldwide two child policy?

It seems like a no-brainer. Why has there been basically zero interest in the idea?

Those who do advocate for voluntary population control simply suggest not having children. This tact seems stigmatizing and divisive to me, and not taken seriously for those reasons.

I believe it's impossible to steer away from the desirability of economic growth until humanity is able to voluntarily control their numbers. Doing so absent the infringement of liberty would be a notable rise above animal nature.

I think some success in this area would lead to all sorts of paradigm changes. If the death of the tribe is more important than the death of the individual, surely everyone has some inkling that the tribe is in trouble. Seems to me this "death of humanity" drives more social strife and mental illness than mortality of the individual.


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Paradigm beyond economic growth [Re: Rahz]
    #28552605 - 11/22/23 09:36 AM (2 months, 5 days ago)

Many people have fertility issues which cannot be managed by decree, but child tax credits geared to income needs makes sense
Combined with legal abortion 😉


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Paradigm beyond economic growth [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28552637 - 11/22/23 10:08 AM (2 months, 5 days ago)

Not sure I get your first point as fertility issues aren't an overpopulation problem.

I'm in favor of tax credits for those who would benefit from them. That all goes away when a third child is born. I think it's reasonable to suggest that humans are at liberty to replace themselves, but not at liberty to overpopulate the Earth. A strong social stigma would be necessary for those who don't need help raising additional children, as well as potentially taxing the crap out of them... a matter I don't take lightly.

But such a stigma would apply to all. A sense of fairness and uniting purpose would be necessary to facilitate cooperation and voluntarism, which would be necessary for the effort to have any chance of success.

I don't advocate legislating abortion but I do shun it. I believe this is the reasonable position. I suppose that eventually the necessity of abortion will nullified by science in a way that does no harm. Until then, I propose that condoms and various other forms of contraceptives including the pill should be made available free of charge for everyone, no questions asked. Insuring that everyone had absolute access to all forms of contraception would go a long way in nullifying the usefulness of abortion.

And again I ask, why doesn't a worldwide two child policy have any traction? Even a AGW skeptic like me knows humanity is in deep shit based on numbers and the relationship between them and non-renewable resources.

Although I don't have strong convictions about it, I do consider the idea that AGW is pushed because there's something so terrible about bringing up the overpopulation issue that world leaders would rather try and scare humanity into submission with a false tangent than be honest about the issue.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Paradigm beyond economic growth [Re: Rahz]
    #28552657 - 11/22/23 10:33 AM (2 months, 5 days ago)

A person can't have 1 child if they can't have any
So it's not fair.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Paradigm beyond economic growth [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28552675 - 11/22/23 10:50 AM (2 months, 5 days ago)

If a person's reproductive issues are due to human induced environmental concerns that's a fair point, but in the context of what our responsibilities are I don't thing there is a responsibility to make sure everyone is able to have children. If more people were willing to adopt the average age at which orphans are adopted would decrease, along with the levels of trauma experienced prior to adoption.

And a new paradigm would be nice and could include an abundance of resources for addressing such issues without coercion. Such solutions are difficult to look forward to when they can't be seen and coercion begins to be appealing.

I personally think humanity is awful and doomed to fail over and over until we are no more :smile:

At any rate, not being able to have children isn't an overpopulation problem. It shouldn't be a solution either.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Paradigm beyond economic growth [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28552681 - 11/22/23 11:06 AM (2 months, 5 days ago)

When you've devised ways to extract a profit from a good chunk of the human population, say, a fraction of a cent, then the last thing you want us depopulation.

Same goes for fielding an army, maintaining a congregation, etc.

What are the planks of any fundamentalist "traditional" platform? Women are baby-makers with no agency, (open) homosexuality is a mortal sin, and apostasy is unforgivable.

Why did the Shakers die out? Because they were a celibate sect.

I don't think a 2-child policy is necessary. Simply providing every woman on the planet with access to reproductive health services, knowledge, and training/education would settle the issue on its own. As would eliminating the idea that motherhood and wify-ness are the only truly important things, and any woman who eschews them has no worth.

That should be easy, right?


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Beware of advice- even this.


Edited by B Traven (11/22/23 11:08 AM)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Paradigm beyond economic growth [Re: B Traven]
    #28552756 - 11/22/23 12:13 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

That's a good point, but I think without the backdrop of a two child policy it would be difficult to get a critical number of people to accept such a social program. As well, while such things are feasible and actually happen in rich countries, providing every woman on the planet with access to reproductive health services, knowledge and training/education is a tall order, not easy.

Such a policy would promote awareness and help facilitate the cooperation that would be necessary to facilitate the things you suggest. As well, bearing children is a personal choice and while I don't believe women should be shunned for not having children, I suppose some women choose to have zero children because they think the world is an awful place (reasonable but hypothetically addressable) and/or because they're guilted into believing it's wrong.

While I think some women simply don't want to have children and that is their right, based on various conversations I've had with women I suppose "the world is an awful place" is the number one reason for not having them, and that overpopulation is number two.

And while attitudes like the ones you mention will always exist, they could become more of an opinion one keeps to themselves with a two child policy. The reason I say this is because a two child policy would result in a steady but manageable decrease in population and it wouldn't fall on deaf ears that the decrease in population would be due to women who choose to have one or none.

While they wouldn't need to be celebrated as heroes, they would be considered an essential part of the process by which humans bring their numbers down to a sustainable level.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Paradigm beyond economic growth [Re: Rahz]
    #28552768 - 11/22/23 12:21 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

If we made less garbage and we might be sustainable now


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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Paradigm beyond economic growth [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28552804 - 11/22/23 12:41 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

Most women don't want to sacrifice a decade of their lives pumping out multiple babies. Anything less than a net birth rate of 1 per person will eventually lead to population loss.

The "people" who need to be convinced are often the men who have ultimate say over their lives. Including their religious leaders.

Another point that's often missed is the space between generations. Women with more resources, education, and agency will also tend to space out their childbirths more.


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Beware of advice- even this.


Edited by B Traven (11/22/23 12:43 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Paradigm beyond economic growth [Re: B Traven] * 1
    #28552808 - 11/22/23 12:47 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

also a matrilineal society will be safer all round


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Paradigm beyond economic growth [Re: B Traven]
    #28552832 - 11/22/23 01:10 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

B Traven said:
Most women don't want to sacrifice a decade of their lives pumping out multiple babies. Anything less than a net birth rate of 1 per person will eventually lead to population loss.

The "people" who need to be convinced are often the men who have ultimate say over their lives. Including their religious leaders.

Another point that's often missed is the space between generations. Women with more resources, education, and agency will also tend to space out their childbirths more.




Certainly most women don't want to have 9-10 children. I think it's fair to say on average women generally want to have more than one if conditions are favorable. And yes, anything less than an average of two per woman will result in population loss.

I suspect poor planning, resource and scarcity concerns contribute as much or more than men demanding flocks of children, though I do frown on religion for various reasons, their contribution to the abortion industry via contraception policies being one.

And again, the answer to that is a worldwide movement that's bigger than religion or government. If people want self rule and autonomy they need to quit relying on government and religious authority, institutions that typically use subterfuge to guild the population because they consider the population too stupid to guide themselves.

It takes two to make a thing go right. I tend to think this way about government and the citizenry.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Paradigm beyond economic growth [Re: B Traven]
    #28554232 - 11/23/23 04:54 PM (2 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

B Traven said:
When you've devised ways to extract a profit from a good chunk of the human population, say, a fraction of a cent, then the last thing you want us depopulation.





"The Limits of Growth" was a report released in 1972 by the Club of Rome. It's thesis is that the population tends to multiply faster than the means of supply and that this dooms the majority of the population to poverty and an eventual humanitarian disaster (scarcity of resources).


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Paradigm beyond economic growth [Re: Rahz]
    #28554239 - 11/23/23 05:25 PM (2 months, 3 days ago)

Anthropologist Marvin Harris stresses four key variables in determining the success of any culture over the long term. They are: production, reproduction, intensification and depletion. If, for example, depletion occurs due to unsustainable levels of production and reproduction, a society, due to ecological necessity, will fail. If there is too much intensification of development due to technology, there will be over-depletion. And as you point out, too high a reproduction rate can destabilize everything as well.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Paradigm beyond economic growth [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #28554581 - 11/24/23 02:08 AM (2 months, 3 days ago)

Utility is a maxim of markets.. free or otherwise.

Money is from Heaven..

^Getting it is one of the best things in life..

Skills are great when added with a wage..

The object demand of society is utopia.. self actualization. 

Peace,

Life style..

Freedom of expression.

Freedom from evil intentions.. or otherwise ideas that are a decay on society.

Peaceful pursuits..

Occult knowledge is real..

Freedom of religion.

Prayer, meditation ritual..

Social contract.. The purpose of society is Civil Union.

Ability to have a love story.

And pursue a story worth living in..

Money makes more parts of society available to the citizen..


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Paradigm beyond economic growth [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #28554630 - 11/24/23 04:13 AM (2 months, 3 days ago)

my point by point on this set of dispositions re: what BrendanFlock said:

Utility is a maxim of markets.. free or otherwise
generic utility is relative, however personal utility makes some sense.
Grouping people into categories (it's brutal) empowers corporate profitmaking, and forces painful identity conformities, shunting people into market sectors that are not necessarily healthy.

Money is from Heaven..
largely luck of the draws - and status is subject to change as well

^Getting it is one of the best things in life..
Lotto culture, Casino culture, game show culture

Skills are great when added with a wage..
Pursuing our natural gifts is lost in this view

The object demand of society is utopia.. self actualization.
Peace,

Life style..

Freedom of expression.

manipulative terms motivational hypnosis 


Freedom from evil intentions.. or otherwise ideas that are a decay on society.

Peaceful pursuits..

vague truisms

Occult knowledge is real..
nonsense, but good for a context re-evaluation (but not clear either)

Freedom of religion.

Prayer, meditation ritual.


this is a given even in oppressive societies, rituals practiced in secret, but better without any oppression for "beliefs".

Social contract.. The purpose of society is Civil Union.

Ability to have a love story.

And pursue a story worth living in..

motivational story telling is the closest to culture that propaganda aspires.

Money makes more parts of society available to the citizen..
or to the alien


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: Paradigm beyond economic growth [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28554632 - 11/24/23 04:17 AM (2 months, 3 days ago)

Freedom of movement.


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: Paradigm beyond economic growth [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28554646 - 11/24/23 04:49 AM (2 months, 3 days ago)

Karl = free man.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Paradigm beyond economic growth [Re: Pinkerton] * 1
    #28554648 - 11/24/23 04:56 AM (2 months, 3 days ago)

the unobstructed Pinky!


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Paradigm beyond economic growth [Re: Rahz]
    #28554694 - 11/24/23 06:57 AM (2 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:

. . . based on various conversations I've had with women I suppose "the world is an awful place" is the number one reason for not having them, and that overpopulation is number two.




In the history of the human species, this new belief is a massive shift with profound repercussions.  We should ponder exactly where these beliefs come from.  These beliefs are being actively propagated.  I hear girls complaining about being victims of the "patriarchy" in the elementary school I work at.  I've heard women complain having children results in a type of slavery.  They use the word slavery.

The belief "the world is such an awful place" that new humans should not enter it is a sign of misery.  Do you agree?  This belief is spreading like wildfire. Currently many women don't view men as having value (studies show this).  Many women do not see having an intimate relationship with a man as having value. Many women do not see having children and a family as having value.  How did these beliefs become so popular?

So what role do men serve in our society and culture now?  We're bombarded with messages about "female power" & male misogyny.  Where does that leave men - nearly half the planet?  The message that continues to grow = male power & authority is bad.  Women control reproduction.  Do men have any authority or rights when a woman chooses to destroy the unborn via abortion?  Nope.  Abortion is the new religion many worship.   

Women win child custody rights battles 80-90% of the time.  Men collectively pay tens of billions in child support. Women are seen as caregivers.  Men are viewed as insensitive $$$ making machines who drink beer & watch football.  And we're all repeatedly lectured we must abandon gender roles & gender stereotypes!  These same people scream "the terrible patriarchy!" ... "the terrible patriarchy!"


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Paradigm beyond economic growth [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28554703 - 11/24/23 07:14 AM (2 months, 3 days ago)

When a girl is forced into marriage or motherhood that is slavery.
resentment builds, and any children from that scenario will develop characters that are basically the impressions of resentment foisted upon them from the day they were born.

People need some sense of empowerment over their bodies and their lives.

I say some sense of it because, weather, climate, economics, infection, disease are all beyond the scope of social influence, and they do affect personal freedom.

But this thing about abortion and personal freedom in society with regards to our own bodies and minds is of paramount importance. Pitting the sexes one against the other is a red herring.


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