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OfflineGenesisCorruptedS
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The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence?
    #28551589 - 11/21/23 01:34 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

So I’ve been grappling with this one for a long time.
A priest is somebody who works for God. It’s like their employee. They do all of this work so they don’t go to hell. They want people to not go to hell. And they spend their whole lives in service to God because of the concept that they get to go to heaven. That’s it, that’s what motivates them in their lives.

Now separate of that. Is a saint. Now all saints aren’t recognized, but it doesn’t change the fact that they are. This is a person that acts genuinely, because they know it is the right thing to do. That is their motivation for doing it. These people will wash lepers. These people will build wells. These people will build homes. Just because that is what you’re supposed to do. You’re supposed to make this world a better place. You’re supposed to uplift people.

Now technically, if that person doesn’t belong to a church. The priest would tell them they’re going to hell.

The saint would say that is not true. They have served God in their way. If anything. The priest is going to hell…

I think it comes down to intention.

If you are in service of God. And your entire reason for being religious is to go to heaven, or to not go to hell.
You’re not actually serving a higher power.
If all of this is just for you getting across the finish line. You’re not actually trying to help the people. You’re just trying to make sure you go to heaven.

The saint on the other hand, doesn’t care about heaven or hell. it never did matter to the saint. They just want the world to be better. They just want to help people. That’s why they will be uplifted by God.

I often question if Mother Teresa was actually a saint or a priest.
Was she doing all of those things because she was scared of going to hell?
Or was she doing all those things because she genuinely wanted to just make peoples lives better?

This is why I feel like going to church is an optional thing. It doesn’t change anything about where you are spiritually as long as you do believe. As long as you are good. As long as you do things because you want to do good things. That is what actually matters in the grand scheme.

Doing something because you know it’s the right thing to do and you don’t want to go to hell. Will not be a genuine act of kindness.

It almost feels like the priest is selling you a line of bullshit to try and guarantee himself a good return on his investment.

The saint will work, their entire lives, and die in poverty. Because they died doing what they believed in.
That is the true faith. It isn’t for promises of glory or threats of anguish. It is because it is the right thing to do.


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Edited by GenesisCorrupted (11/29/23 10:26 PM)


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28551681 - 11/21/23 02:49 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

I think I'm missing something. A priest of what exactly? A saint declared by whom? There's a lot of religions out there and they don't share that many similarities in views. Even within a single religion there is often very little overlap between 1 believer and the next.


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OfflineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: Kickle]
    #28551685 - 11/21/23 02:54 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

I thought I made it pretty clear. I think you’re getting too tied up on the actual terms.

A priest is anyone who teaches that you will be punished or rewarded for your religious doctrine.

A saint is someone who does good just for the sake of it.

This applies to everybody. It doesn’t need to be any specific priest or saint.


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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28551691 - 11/21/23 02:57 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

I see, you're just defining what a priest is for your purposes, as opposed to representing some actual priest?

I'm neither and haven't met anyone who fits these roles either. I think pretty much everyone does what they think is right, given limited knowledge. But there are varying degrees of how much someone from the outside looks at those actions as right. Some may have more wisdom and so be better judges.


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OfflineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: Kickle]
    #28551696 - 11/21/23 03:01 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

Precisely, I’m talking about the concept. It doesn’t need to be anything specific.

I have definitely met people that fit into the priest category. I have met some Saints.

All I mean, when I talk about the priest is. The only reason they do good things and don’t do bad things is because they want to go to heaven and not go to hell.
Which isn’t an benevolent motivation to be a good person. It’s a selfish motivation to not be punished or to get a reward.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28551708 - 11/21/23 03:08 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

:shrug:

I'm of the opinion that we can label another any way that feels right to us, but it isn't necessarily accurate beyond limited understanding. Whether that be labeling behavior hellish, heavenly, or whatever.

Maybe a question I have is why is it a good idea to label anyone a priest or a saint in the first place?


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: Kickle]
    #28551715 - 11/21/23 03:13 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

See I don’t think you get it.

This has nothing to do with labels.

This has to do with your philosophy.

Your motivation.

Take away the labels. They don’t matter. They are a familiar term used to convey an idea of something quickly. That’s it. I need you to stop thinking about the terms themselves. And then start thinking about the concepts behind them.


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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28551719 - 11/21/23 03:14 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

Ok, revised question: Why is it a good idea to think about the concept of a priest or saint?

My philosophy is that I am neither a priest nor a saint, as you've set out definitions for in the OP.


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: Kickle]
    #28551722 - 11/21/23 03:15 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

Motivation.

Do they act out of benevolence.

Or out of fear/anticipation of a reward.

The original concept of this question was posed to me about 20 years ago. Somebody told me that Mother Teresa was a bitch. Because the only reason she did anything was so she wouldn’t burn in hell.

Wow, that was a very hard stance.
But it did make me start thinking about this concept.

Are people doing these things because of this reward/punishment system.

Or are they genuinely doing these things because they are good people.


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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28551723 - 11/21/23 03:16 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

Both IME

If there was no reward, it would be exceptionally difficult to continue any acts of kindness or goodness. And if there was no kindness or goodness, there would be no reason to reward the acts.

I don't think these are mutually exclusive. Being rewarded for being kind is a kindness in and of itself and shouldn't be shunned IMO. Whether that is just a smile in return or something more long term in view. 

Within my own life I would say there have been differences in motivation and it isn't set in stone. For example I don't think someone is a genuinely good person if they let someone abuse them. I think standing up for kindness towards yourself is the same as standing up for kindness towards another. There is no reason one person deserves kindness and another doesn't. But with that said, I play favorites all the time. It's a practice to overcome such tendencies and not a quick snap of the fingers IMO. 


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OfflineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: Kickle]
    #28551731 - 11/21/23 03:23 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

No one ever said the word shunned until you did.

I think the concept of heaven & hell actually do paint a lot of what peoples motivations are for the actions they take.

I feel like without those motivations the actions people take are much more genuine. And actually give you a much better insight into who those people are.


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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28551736 - 11/21/23 03:29 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

Right, I said shunned and didn't attribute the word to anyone else :smile:

Maybe it's because I don't run in Christian circles, but I don't come across people who state the reason for their actions are because they are worried they are going to hell, or because they want to go to heaven. I find the people around tend to be quite genuine :confused:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: Kickle]
    #28551760 - 11/21/23 03:53 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

They aren’t going to just tell you.

You can’t just ask somebody if they actually do things for the right reasons. They’re gonna lie and say they do.

From having conversations and hearing the real ways, they think about things when they’re going about their lives. That’s how you can actually find out what really motivates them to be a good person or not.

I’ve met some vicious, mean bastards that claimed, and acted very religiously.


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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] * 1
    #28551768 - 11/21/23 03:58 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

Sorry to hear :hug:


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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: Kickle]
    #28551771 - 11/21/23 04:01 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

Yeah, I’ve had a pretty slanted perspective. Having some family members get sucked into the Mormonism cult really did a number on my perspective of organized religion.


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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28551782 - 11/21/23 04:10 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

I just retold this story the other day so maybe that's why it sprang to mind so quickly, but the daughter of a cop is the only person to have ever tried to stab me :lol:

I think authoritarian restriction has downsides. Which is not to say that the actions trying to be restricted should instead be encouraged. But if someone doesn't have the skills necessary, I can't see the benefit in trying to force them to do something they are incapable of. And I do see lots of frustration emerging from a sense of failure. Maybe I'm just a fool who thinks ignorance is the enemy, not people.


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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] * 1
    #28551881 - 11/21/23 05:51 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

Essence, say, present in any religion or contemplation is not kept for oneself, separation a concept left behind as well thought of future and past. That mind is in service.

An example I heard recently- a string of a musical instrument vibrating brings those close along with it.


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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28557833 - 11/26/23 10:23 PM (2 months, 8 hours ago)

About 20 years ago the Church finally admitted they leveraged the concept of hell as a place/destination as a way to control people.  They've since said it was really nothing more than a state of existence that is different than being in connection with their God in the way they find most gratifying.

Most people never got the memo and certainly others are still trying to manipulate others with this fear.


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OfflineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: CrayolaHalls]
    #28557839 - 11/26/23 10:28 PM (2 months, 8 hours ago)

At most. I feel like a soul that had a really hard time. Would probably go into some sort of a spiritual rehab. But they’re certainly aren’t gonna put you in a fiery box. You can’t ever come back out of again.
Thank you for your comment.
Sincerely, GC


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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] * 1
    #28558626 - 11/27/23 05:34 PM (1 month, 30 days ago)

Many priests and pastors do it as a job to get paid.

I spoke an African "pastor" online a few years back. He was collecting donations to set up a congregation. The purpose of the congregation was to get him enough money. When he had enough money he would ditch the congregation, handing it over to his brothers while he would go to America. Why America? "to make a lot of money there" for his family? nope. his congregation? no he would have left that behind. What do you find inspiring about America? "the money." What will you do there? "whatever makes the most money"

even the locusts have phones now, it seems.

of course he'll never make it, but he'll fck the faithful and anything in his path to get there.

Would you consider MrBeast a saint?


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