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GenesisCorrupted
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The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence?
#28551589 - 11/21/23 01:34 PM (2 months, 5 days ago) |
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So I’ve been grappling with this one for a long time. A priest is somebody who works for God. It’s like their employee. They do all of this work so they don’t go to hell. They want people to not go to hell. And they spend their whole lives in service to God because of the concept that they get to go to heaven. That’s it, that’s what motivates them in their lives.
Now separate of that. Is a saint. Now all saints aren’t recognized, but it doesn’t change the fact that they are. This is a person that acts genuinely, because they know it is the right thing to do. That is their motivation for doing it. These people will wash lepers. These people will build wells. These people will build homes. Just because that is what you’re supposed to do. You’re supposed to make this world a better place. You’re supposed to uplift people.
Now technically, if that person doesn’t belong to a church. The priest would tell them they’re going to hell.
The saint would say that is not true. They have served God in their way. If anything. The priest is going to hell…
I think it comes down to intention.
If you are in service of God. And your entire reason for being religious is to go to heaven, or to not go to hell. You’re not actually serving a higher power. If all of this is just for you getting across the finish line. You’re not actually trying to help the people. You’re just trying to make sure you go to heaven.
The saint on the other hand, doesn’t care about heaven or hell. it never did matter to the saint. They just want the world to be better. They just want to help people. That’s why they will be uplifted by God.
I often question if Mother Teresa was actually a saint or a priest. Was she doing all of those things because she was scared of going to hell? Or was she doing all those things because she genuinely wanted to just make peoples lives better?
This is why I feel like going to church is an optional thing. It doesn’t change anything about where you are spiritually as long as you do believe. As long as you are good. As long as you do things because you want to do good things. That is what actually matters in the grand scheme.
Doing something because you know it’s the right thing to do and you don’t want to go to hell. Will not be a genuine act of kindness.
It almost feels like the priest is selling you a line of bullshit to try and guarantee himself a good return on his investment.
The saint will work, their entire lives, and die in poverty. Because they died doing what they believed in. That is the true faith. It isn’t for promises of glory or threats of anguish. It is because it is the right thing to do.
Edited by GenesisCorrupted (11/29/23 10:26 PM)
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Kickle
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28551681 - 11/21/23 02:49 PM (2 months, 5 days ago) |
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I think I'm missing something. A priest of what exactly? A saint declared by whom? There's a lot of religions out there and they don't share that many similarities in views. Even within a single religion there is often very little overlap between 1 believer and the next.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: Kickle]
#28551685 - 11/21/23 02:54 PM (2 months, 5 days ago) |
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I thought I made it pretty clear. I think you’re getting too tied up on the actual terms.
A priest is anyone who teaches that you will be punished or rewarded for your religious doctrine.
A saint is someone who does good just for the sake of it.
This applies to everybody. It doesn’t need to be any specific priest or saint.
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Kickle
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28551691 - 11/21/23 02:57 PM (2 months, 5 days ago) |
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I see, you're just defining what a priest is for your purposes, as opposed to representing some actual priest?
I'm neither and haven't met anyone who fits these roles either. I think pretty much everyone does what they think is right, given limited knowledge. But there are varying degrees of how much someone from the outside looks at those actions as right. Some may have more wisdom and so be better judges.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: Kickle]
#28551696 - 11/21/23 03:01 PM (2 months, 5 days ago) |
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Precisely, I’m talking about the concept. It doesn’t need to be anything specific.
I have definitely met people that fit into the priest category. I have met some Saints.
All I mean, when I talk about the priest is. The only reason they do good things and don’t do bad things is because they want to go to heaven and not go to hell. Which isn’t an benevolent motivation to be a good person. It’s a selfish motivation to not be punished or to get a reward.
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Kickle
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28551708 - 11/21/23 03:08 PM (2 months, 5 days ago) |
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I'm of the opinion that we can label another any way that feels right to us, but it isn't necessarily accurate beyond limited understanding. Whether that be labeling behavior hellish, heavenly, or whatever.
Maybe a question I have is why is it a good idea to label anyone a priest or a saint in the first place?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: Kickle]
#28551715 - 11/21/23 03:13 PM (2 months, 5 days ago) |
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See I don’t think you get it.
This has nothing to do with labels.
This has to do with your philosophy.
Your motivation.
Take away the labels. They don’t matter. They are a familiar term used to convey an idea of something quickly. That’s it. I need you to stop thinking about the terms themselves. And then start thinking about the concepts behind them.
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Kickle
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28551719 - 11/21/23 03:14 PM (2 months, 5 days ago) |
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Ok, revised question: Why is it a good idea to think about the concept of a priest or saint? My philosophy is that I am neither a priest nor a saint, as you've set out definitions for in the OP.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: Kickle]
#28551722 - 11/21/23 03:15 PM (2 months, 5 days ago) |
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Motivation.
Do they act out of benevolence.
Or out of fear/anticipation of a reward.
The original concept of this question was posed to me about 20 years ago. Somebody told me that Mother Teresa was a bitch. Because the only reason she did anything was so she wouldn’t burn in hell.
Wow, that was a very hard stance. But it did make me start thinking about this concept.
Are people doing these things because of this reward/punishment system.
Or are they genuinely doing these things because they are good people.
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Kickle
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28551723 - 11/21/23 03:16 PM (2 months, 5 days ago) |
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Both IME
If there was no reward, it would be exceptionally difficult to continue any acts of kindness or goodness. And if there was no kindness or goodness, there would be no reason to reward the acts.
I don't think these are mutually exclusive. Being rewarded for being kind is a kindness in and of itself and shouldn't be shunned IMO. Whether that is just a smile in return or something more long term in view.
Within my own life I would say there have been differences in motivation and it isn't set in stone. For example I don't think someone is a genuinely good person if they let someone abuse them. I think standing up for kindness towards yourself is the same as standing up for kindness towards another. There is no reason one person deserves kindness and another doesn't. But with that said, I play favorites all the time. It's a practice to overcome such tendencies and not a quick snap of the fingers IMO.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: Kickle]
#28551731 - 11/21/23 03:23 PM (2 months, 5 days ago) |
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No one ever said the word shunned until you did.
I think the concept of heaven & hell actually do paint a lot of what peoples motivations are for the actions they take.
I feel like without those motivations the actions people take are much more genuine. And actually give you a much better insight into who those people are.
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Kickle
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28551736 - 11/21/23 03:29 PM (2 months, 5 days ago) |
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Right, I said shunned and didn't attribute the word to anyone else 
Maybe it's because I don't run in Christian circles, but I don't come across people who state the reason for their actions are because they are worried they are going to hell, or because they want to go to heaven. I find the people around tend to be quite genuine
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: Kickle]
#28551760 - 11/21/23 03:53 PM (2 months, 5 days ago) |
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They aren’t going to just tell you.
You can’t just ask somebody if they actually do things for the right reasons. They’re gonna lie and say they do.
From having conversations and hearing the real ways, they think about things when they’re going about their lives. That’s how you can actually find out what really motivates them to be a good person or not.
I’ve met some vicious, mean bastards that claimed, and acted very religiously.
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] 1
#28551768 - 11/21/23 03:58 PM (2 months, 5 days ago) |
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Sorry to hear
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: Kickle]
#28551771 - 11/21/23 04:01 PM (2 months, 5 days ago) |
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Yeah, I’ve had a pretty slanted perspective. Having some family members get sucked into the Mormonism cult really did a number on my perspective of organized religion.
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Kickle
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28551782 - 11/21/23 04:10 PM (2 months, 5 days ago) |
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I just retold this story the other day so maybe that's why it sprang to mind so quickly, but the daughter of a cop is the only person to have ever tried to stab me 
I think authoritarian restriction has downsides. Which is not to say that the actions trying to be restricted should instead be encouraged. But if someone doesn't have the skills necessary, I can't see the benefit in trying to force them to do something they are incapable of. And I do see lots of frustration emerging from a sense of failure. Maybe I'm just a fool who thinks ignorance is the enemy, not people.
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] 1
#28551881 - 11/21/23 05:51 PM (2 months, 5 days ago) |
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Essence, say, present in any religion or contemplation is not kept for oneself, separation a concept left behind as well thought of future and past. That mind is in service.
An example I heard recently- a string of a musical instrument vibrating brings those close along with it.
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: syncro] 1
#28557833 - 11/26/23 10:23 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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About 20 years ago the Church finally admitted they leveraged the concept of hell as a place/destination as a way to control people. They've since said it was really nothing more than a state of existence that is different than being in connection with their God in the way they find most gratifying.
Most people never got the memo and certainly others are still trying to manipulate others with this fear.
--------------------
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: CrayolaHalls]
#28557839 - 11/26/23 10:28 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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At most. I feel like a soul that had a really hard time. Would probably go into some sort of a spiritual rehab. But they’re certainly aren’t gonna put you in a fiery box. You can’t ever come back out of again. Thank you for your comment. Sincerely, GC
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] 1
#28558626 - 11/27/23 05:34 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Many priests and pastors do it as a job to get paid.
I spoke an African "pastor" online a few years back. He was collecting donations to set up a congregation. The purpose of the congregation was to get him enough money. When he had enough money he would ditch the congregation, handing it over to his brothers while he would go to America. Why America? "to make a lot of money there" for his family? nope. his congregation? no he would have left that behind. What do you find inspiring about America? "the money." What will you do there? "whatever makes the most money"
even the locusts have phones now, it seems.
of course he'll never make it, but he'll fck the faithful and anything in his path to get there.
Would you consider MrBeast a saint?
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: Asante]
#28558647 - 11/27/23 05:44 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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At least he makes the question complicated. Donating 5 1/2 million dollars to charity. Does make it difficult to say that blowing up something to be famous, is only for vanity.
I’d say he’s having a lot of fun making a lot of money. And donating to charitable causes. Which is inherently good. But I say his enjoyment seems to be first and foremost what he is working towards. Saint Hood work is humble work. You don’t need people to see you doing it to know you’re doing the right thing. So while I am convinced, he is a good guy. He is no saint.
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28559033 - 11/28/23 02:53 AM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
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Society fails when saints have to lie..
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Asante
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: BrendanFlock] 2
#28559087 - 11/28/23 04:55 AM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
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I dislike the mrbeast video, not to shill for him but mrbeast is in good standing with me and this video shows stuff that doesnt touch what he's actually doing, its meanspirited.
God's on MrBeast's side you can't deny that.
MrBeast weaponized capitalism for philantrophy.
Sure he's probably making bank but at present he devotes his life, literally, to planting ever greater fields of generosity, afforded by virally paying it forward.
He is getting more efficient in doing works of greater good.
He is actually doing what megachurches promise, without preaching in word, but demonstrating goodness in deed.
Great respect for the guy, he's a youngster not knowing what to do with himself in this fcked society, so he's going full kamikaze in chasing this divine inspiration.
Saint is the wrong word but he is teaching the world.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: Asante]
#28559246 - 11/28/23 09:05 AM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
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I agree the video was mean spirited. I don’t disagree. The guy is doing some amazing philanthropy. I’ve just seen some of his videos that seem like he’s having a blast. But just because you’re having fun, doesn’t mean you aren’t doing good things.
He is certainly doing a lot more for his community than the churches.
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Asante
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] 1
#28559268 - 11/28/23 09:51 AM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
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Speaking of: today your donations get quadrupled in the culmination of shroomsgiving!
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] 1
#28566990 - 12/03/23 04:10 PM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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George Orwell - 1984 'We are the priests of power,' he said. 'God is power. But at present power is only a word so far as you are concerned. It is time for you to gather some idea of what power means. The first thing you must realize is that power is collective. The individual only has power in so far as he ceases to be an individual. You know the Party slogan: "Freedom is Slavery". Has it ever occurred to you that it is reversible? Slavery is freedom. Alone -- free -- the human being is always defeated. It must be so, because every human being is doomed to die, which is the greatest of all failures. But if he can make complete, utter submission, if he can escape from his identity, if he can merge himself in the Party so that he is the Party, then he is all-powerful and immortal. The second thing for you to realize is that power is power over human beings. Over the body but, above all, over the mind. Power over matter -- external reality, as you would call it -- is not important. Already our control over matter is absolute.' https://www.abhaf.org/assets/books/html/1984/174.html
Edited by gooddrugguy (12/03/23 04:11 PM)
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Freedom
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] 1
#28582494 - 12/14/23 11:25 AM (1 month, 13 days ago) |
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I think this is more a matter of understanding/perspective than authenticity.
and also comes in shades of gray rather than black or white
i see two aspects in your comments. One is self centeredness vs say whole centeredness. The other is your understanding of the world. If someone really believes in eternal torture, trying to save people from that sounds like a sane, authentic and nobel cause.
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durian_2008
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: Freedom]
#28583175 - 12/14/23 08:53 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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The problem with the 'Great Commission' of missionaries coming to everyone's house and proselytizing them, is numerous passages about predestination / foreordainment in which prophets and blood feuds would be known from the womb and even when the foundations of the Earth were laid.
edit --typo
Edited by durian_2008 (12/14/23 08:54 PM)
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28583178 - 12/14/23 08:55 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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You’re right.
 You shouldn’t go to someone and tell them they’re going to suffer because they don’t believe the same thing as you.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28583181 - 12/14/23 08:56 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Just having an actual faith in something happening after you die. Means you are right. As long as you really believe it. You’re not just waiting for a reward. You’re not just afraid of being punished. You just feel at ease because you know you’re good.
You don’t need to prove it. You don’t need to be afraid. You can just be a good person.
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durian_2008
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28583183 - 12/14/23 08:57 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Unrepentant people could suffer terrible curses. They could recover. They could change from their evil ways. Or, have some vision without any missionary or pastor, because no medium or intermediary or intercessor is needed between mankind and God.
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durian_2008
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] 1
#28583187 - 12/14/23 09:00 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: You’re right.
 You shouldn’t go to someone and tell them they’re going to suffer because they don’t believe the same thing as you.
Regardless of our politics, there is still such a thing as being objectively evil...
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28583188 - 12/14/23 09:01 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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What really bugs me is when people that don’t believe in God at all, become somebody who has a lot of power over the church. The Catholics used to let you pay money. And then you were absolved of your sins.
Just a coin in the box. And you could go out and do anything you wanted. Because you had five more coins in your pocket.
This kind of ludicrous punishment reward system. Led people to feel justified in the crusades.
 One of the greatest tragedies that befel humanity. Those men were promised blanket immunity. They thought they were going to heaven for all that murder they were doing.
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durian_2008
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28583194 - 12/14/23 09:07 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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"that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" -- from Romans 1
"...not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another..." -- from Romans 2
This says you know right from wrong. Is that true?
Edited by durian_2008 (12/14/23 09:31 PM)
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durian_2008
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28583224 - 12/14/23 09:31 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Have you been naughty or nice?
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28583226 - 12/14/23 09:32 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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I am good.
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durian_2008
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28583232 - 12/14/23 09:36 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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You've really never missed a beat, never once felt sorry for anything you have ever done? I thought you have a conscience.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28583240 - 12/14/23 09:41 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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I thought you meant today! 😂
Even with mistakes made. I’m a good person.
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syncro
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28583412 - 12/15/23 04:13 AM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Are we good considering ourselves and each other identified with these limited flesh bodies allied with the ego? The line of thought I consider from ACIM. It follows, you think you love your cutie, yet, you promote their limited form and yours to do so. Anyways just to ruin your morning. It's all good if you acknowledge and begin to hand it over.
But the course goes deep in the repercussions of what we think we are making hate inevitable, even if we act as normal 'good' humans. Notice how vulnerable that is as soon as threat is perceived, or chemistry gets tweaked, ...
Hermes I believe confirmed, the divine spark is limited by the qualities of the bodies.
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syncro
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: syncro] 1
#28583419 - 12/15/23 04:28 AM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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I think in the Magic, White and Black book read recently, or related, was described a scene where a young man was leaving overseas perhaps as a soldier, and was with his sweet amor who spoke words of love and promise, and astrally on the front side was perceived manifest vibes of said beauty and promise, yet behind her the same was peopled with shadow things. The falsehood of separation must carry the shadow I guess.
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28583440 - 12/15/23 05:24 AM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: I thought you meant today! 😂
Even with mistakes made. I’m a good person.
That may be true, but you are still a sinner.
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loladoreen


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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] 1
#28583457 - 12/15/23 05:46 AM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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I grew up very religious and my entire family is religious . In response to the hypothetical question priest & saint My parents would be saints Becoming an adult and going more into the real world i was unaware of hypocrisy and people who hide behind their religion. As that was not my experience growing up. It was baffling to me as a young adult Now It disgusts me When we started the syringe exchange program the person who opposed it the most - preachers wife She drove bus and wanted to be able to refuse to take people to buy tobacco or alcohol. Refuse to pick up people in active addiction A preachers wife She told us in her congregation no one was in need or had problems Complete opposite of my parents, in their 70's who not only support the syringe exchange and harm reduction program but ask questions And attend community meetings and ask how they can support They do support When we had a community meeting the genuine questions were from boomers wanting to understand opiate addiction I don't understand turning your back on others in the name of religion when the religion I know teaches the opposite
--------------------
“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”
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syncro
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: loladoreen]
#28583478 - 12/15/23 06:17 AM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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I was at the store and a guy asked for some change and I gave him mine and said the habitual, 'for no drugs or alcohol?' I thought it funny later as I use the both.
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durian_2008
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28583703 - 12/15/23 09:46 AM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: mistakes made
Did you feel guilty as a matter of indoctrination?
Or, were you born with a conscience?
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: blessed]
#28583710 - 12/15/23 09:52 AM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
blessed said:
Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: Even with mistakes made. I’m a good person.
That may be true, but you are still a sinner.
How so?
Edited by GenesisCorrupted (12/18/23 09:45 PM)
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durian_2008
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28583719 - 12/15/23 09:57 AM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
durian_2008 said: were you born with a conscience?
Quote:
blessed said: you are still a sinner.
Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said:

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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28583734 - 12/15/23 10:07 AM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
durian_2008 said:
Quote:
durian_2008 said: were you born with a conscience?
Quote:
blessed said: you are still a sinner.
Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said:

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durian_2008
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] 1
#28583758 - 12/15/23 10:19 AM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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There are what are called modalities or different modes of thinking.
Some people are into video games, drugs, or that exercise machine, or take your pick of any fictional universe, role play, or hobby.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28583760 - 12/15/23 10:20 AM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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How have I sinned? That’s why I was laughing.
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syncro
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28583816 - 12/15/23 10:51 AM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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By considering yourself and us as physical humans as explained. It's all your fault, corrupting Genesis.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: syncro]
#28583822 - 12/15/23 10:55 AM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: By considering yourself and us as physical humans as explained. It's all your fault, corrupting Genesis.
I can’t explain humans. They are inexplicable sometimes.
Edited by GenesisCorrupted (12/15/23 11:27 AM)
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syncro
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] 1
#28583880 - 12/15/23 12:08 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Devotion, Bhakti, is the same as the ecstasies, Anandakaya, the bliss body.
Chanting, singing, music, is most easily explicable by its fruits.
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durian_2008
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28583935 - 12/15/23 01:15 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: How have I sinned? That’s why I was laughing.
Did you do something that made you feel bad, even without threat of condemnation or punishment?
The moral of the story is that everyone sins.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28583939 - 12/15/23 01:18 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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My point is. That doesn’t matter if you’re a good person. Everyone makes mistakes. I’m not condemned to hell because I made myself feel bad.
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durian_2008
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28583950 - 12/15/23 01:25 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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It appears that you have a conscience, independent of any threats or shaming, on my part.
Is it such a bad thing to say about you?
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28583980 - 12/15/23 01:56 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Yes, you can’t shame me. This website is shameless.
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durian_2008
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28583988 - 12/15/23 02:01 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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I haven't accused you of anything or asked the details your personal business or said that anything in particular was going to punish you, ever. 
You were not being religious. There should be nothing to be afraid of.
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durian_2008
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28583992 - 12/15/23 02:03 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Do you believe that every person contains a spark of the divine or was made in the image of God?
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28583994 - 12/15/23 02:04 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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I think everyone has the potential to be a saint or a devil.
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durian_2008
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28584000 - 12/15/23 02:09 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Christians believe that the kingdom of God is within a person, and you are doing wrong against a likeness of God or against his handiwork.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28584017 - 12/15/23 02:23 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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In what way?
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durian_2008
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] 1
#28584054 - 12/15/23 02:58 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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That depends on how far you want to take it, philosophically. Interpreted with all different levels of literalness.
We are subjected to lots of fantasy genre and punditry, but life itself is a miracle. What's going on, away from the monitor.
Some reasons not to do wrong are when you pity something or consider it valuable of your own accord.
(But, we assume someone is looking.)
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28584800 - 12/16/23 02:30 AM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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I’ve been thinking about this. I think that’s the core of it. If you aren’t being watched. You have an opportunity to do something good. Let’s say something that would hurt you. But it is the right thing to do. But if you didn’t do it. No one would know.
This isn’t a small matter. This is going to really hurt you. You might have permanent scarring maybe burns. But you did it because it was the right thing to do. Not because you wanted to die with some grand purpose in mind. Not because you were getting rewarded. Not because you were going to get punished if you didn’t do it. Just because it was the right thing to do.
That is a saint. Anyone can be a saint. That’s what we should all strive to be like. But peoples perspectives are skewed, because most religion gives you a reward for staying in line. To keep doing what you’re told. Or you are met with hellfire for breaking the rules. Now those rules are important.
There were no rules. It was awful. A group of people banded together, and they all agreed what we need is a set of rules to keep people from doing this.
 That wasn’t going to be enough. They felt like they needed to threaten them. So they convinced them of the concept of hell. Something I don’t believe in.
I think if your soul has been tainted through this life. With its misery that it can put you through. You have to go into a sort of spiritual rehab. Where you wash this taint from you. And then you can come back and try again.
That’s just how I feel.
Edited by GenesisCorrupted (12/18/23 09:42 PM)
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syncro
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] 1
#28584956 - 12/16/23 06:57 AM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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This is stuck in my head GC! Now you must pay. All together now. 
As I went down in the river to pray Studyin' about that good ol' way And who shall wear the starry crown? Good Lord, show me the way...
"Come on in boys, the water is fine."
Edited by syncro (12/16/23 07:06 AM)
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durian_2008
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28585167 - 12/16/23 10:24 AM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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Besides doing good when you are not under threat, some people faced persecution, were imprisoned and tortured for the sake of their conscience.
They would not bow down to foreign gods nor eat what was unclean to them. It wouldn't have caused any inconvenience to their physical body or required any effort on their part, if they had complied with demands.
So, it's not based on peer pressure or consequences.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28585367 - 12/16/23 01:11 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
durian_2008 said: Besides doing good when you are not under threat, some people faced persecution, were imprisoned and tortured for the sake of their conscience.
They would not bow down to foreign gods nor eat what was unclean to them. It wouldn't have caused any inconvenience to their physical body or required any effort on their part, if they had complied with demands.
So, it's not based on peer pressure or consequences.
Have you ever heard what happened to the last Incan King?
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28585382 - 12/16/23 01:24 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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The Spanish conquistadors had conquered the Inca. The king saw how they coveted treasure above all else. So he offered to fill a room with gold in one day. Then he said he would fill it twice with silver. If they would just leave his people alone.
He accomplished that. Now the conquistadors demanded one more thing. The requerimiento: A speech requiring the listener to submit to the authority of the Spanish Crown and accept the Christian faith. He refused. Knowing that in their religion being killed in fire, guaranteed no afterlife. They said they were going to burn them to death. He needed to submit, or they would kill everybody.
They tortured him for days.
 Until he finally submitted to their Christian God. Fully believing in his religion. He was willing to sacrifice himself to hell for his people. They immediately killed him. Then they went out of their way to take some of his clothes and some of his skin to burn. His remains were given a Christian burial.
That is the saint versus the priest…
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28585401 - 12/16/23 01:42 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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Inca or Inquisitor, was either religious or afraid of the consequences?
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durian_2008
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008] 1
#28585405 - 12/16/23 01:44 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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What about Pontius Pilate and Jesus?
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28585406 - 12/16/23 01:45 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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Conquistadors felt completely justified in murdering all of those people. Including their king. Because they were savages in their eyes. They did not worship the correct God. They were going to burn in hell according to their religion. The Incans were also religious. They had their own very specific belief system. The Christians purposefully were going to do something that would guarantee him no afterlife, because they knew that would terrify him the most into converting.
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durian_2008
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28585446 - 12/16/23 02:16 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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(I didn't realize that the discussion was leading to a victimhood narrative.)
Quote:
Capac Hucha as an Inca Assemblage https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/capa/hd_capa.htm
The performance began in Cuzco, the Inca capital, with the marriage of juveniles selected by Inca nobility. The juveniles, wearing a range of ornaments, were taken on processions to different locations, where they were killed and buried with varied materials, including metals.
Although it is written, "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God," one possible interpretation is that brother turns against brother and the Earth turns against them.
Authors at the time of the original missionaries, and political, and business contacts -- first contacts -- claimed to have found societies in decline due to plagues, warfare, probably killing off the best of their best, and the dumping of national treasures with those sacrificed.
Quote:
The Cult of Sol Invictus https://spacezilotes.wordpress.com/2009/12/18/the-cult-of-sol-invictus/
The Roman Empire began their official recognition of sun worship during the time of Aurelian when he instituted the cult of "Sol Invictus". There is virtually no difference between the cult of Sol Invictus and that of Mithraism or for that matter catholicism.
I find their observances very beautiful, irl. Except, in my version of intersectionality, would have been subject to the Inquisition on several issues.
LIST OF CATHOLIC HERESIESAnd HUMAN TRADITIONSADOPTED and PERPETUATED by the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCHIN THE COURSE OF 1600 YEARS(Compiled by Rev. Stephen L. Testa) https://d3hgrlq6yacptf.cloudfront.net/5f19468dbebc0/content/pages/documents/1393876384.pdf
The notorious Jack Chick asks whether Catholics are Christians: https://www.chick.com/products/tract?stk=71 Maybe, in a little booklet you were once given in your Halloween candy.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28585454 - 12/16/23 02:24 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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Christians are the result of Catholics. Because of the rampant greed that had permeated the church. Separating them from the real spirituality of it. People got fed up with being able to pay for absolution. That doesn’t sound very religious.
Which caused them to protest against this church.
Forming the designations of protestants. In truth. Most Christianity comes from a root in Judaism.
To be honest though. I got a little lost in your comment. What did you mean specifically?
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durian_2008
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28585457 - 12/16/23 02:27 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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In modern times, I think most people are religious on the level of Hallmark holidays, the WCOC, and Tomorrowland Music Festivals.
My grandmother claimed to be Catholic at an opportune time so escaped persecution and was taken in by Catholics.
I put a motor scooter back on the van of a an elderly grandmother, on my way to work, passing a Catholic church.
The parishioners around the block from me were uncommonly gentle, not acting like Crusaders, although their churchbell is no longer allowed, here.
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28585458 - 12/16/23 02:29 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: Christians are the result of Catholics.
Or, Mithraism, or Messianic Judaism...
Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: To be honest though. I got a little lost in your comment. What did you mean specifically?
About it being a victimhood narrative?
I'm enjoying my food and some family dropped by.
I'm not in victim mode all the time.
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28585472 - 12/16/23 02:42 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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You should’ve just said that. It is not a victimhood argument. It’s the statement. That they tortured this man with the thing that he feared the most. To force him to convert to their religion. Otherwise they were going to murder everybody. They felt justified in their actions.
That is not religious. That is monstrous.
The man that sacrificed himself even knowing he would go to hell in his own mind. Was the saint.
If anything, that’s a narrative about sacrifice.
Now once again. What is your question?
Edited by GenesisCorrupted (12/16/23 03:39 PM)
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durian_2008
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28585482 - 12/16/23 02:48 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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I feel tricked into answering a religious line of questioning, when I said that I did not want to be political, nor do I associate with the oppressors, who I am apparently supposed to be defending.
Since they are not directly culpable, but are civil to me, I respect them, platonically.
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28585552 - 12/16/23 03:40 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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I’m not accusing you of anything. I just want you to see what you’re saying in a different perspective.
Nobody’s attacking anyone. This is a theological philosophical debate.
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28585579 - 12/16/23 03:55 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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From the christophobic pov.
(I don't carry it with me. I am doing other things while the pc is on in the background.)
Remember, when I talked about predestination or foreordainment and how, it is written, people could be known from the womb. I don't consider it in my power to change someone's mind against their will.
You might conceivably get someone to pretend. Or, people on either side of the discussion can refuse to cooperate out of spite. As an act of free will, you can accept persecution and punishment, on either side of this discussion.
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sudly
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28587703 - 12/18/23 02:15 AM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28589083 - 12/18/23 09:16 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said:

Quote:
blessed said:
Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: Even with mistakes made. I’m a good person.
That may be true, but you are still a sinner.
How so?
Because the Bible says in Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".
Also in the same chapter of Romans you'll find,
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.” 13 “Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; “The poison of asps is under their lips”; 14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.” 15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17 And the way of peace they have not known.” 18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
and further more in Romans chapter 4:7-8
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
And with that, there's this,
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death,
You might want to consider changing that laughing out loud smiley for a crying out loud one.
Edited by blessed (12/31/23 01:06 AM)
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: blessed]
#28589092 - 12/18/23 09:19 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Here’s the original post. Because you edited it in a negative fashion.
Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said:

Quote:
blessed said:
Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: Even with mistakes made. I’m a good person.
That may be true, but you are still a sinner.
How so?
But how have I sinned? Also there are tons of things not true in that. Number 11 particularly stands out to me. So you have never met anyone who sought out spiritual meaning or God? I am not a sinner. But somebody who tries to tell me, I’m gonna burn in hell for not reading that book page to page and believing every single thing in it.
 That sounds like terrorism to me.
Edited by GenesisCorrupted (12/20/23 05:56 PM)
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Nillion
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] 2
#28591601 - 12/20/23 04:24 PM (1 month, 7 days ago) |
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Saints by definition work miracles.
Priests may just be members of the worlds oldest book club whose main pastime is asking for money.
At least with organized religion one has a choice in terms of the callings, which are related to social functions and the organizations needs.
I'm neither a Saint, nor Priest, but am deeply religious. I don't pursue nor desire reward, nor fear punishment. I don't even teach my religion to others. It's private.
I occasionally discuss aspects of my religiosity and the related content with others, but rarely and never in great detail.
Let the divine initiate those who are meant to be initiated, it needs no human representative nor spokesperson and my understanding is that it never calls people to speak for it, because it can speak for itself.
It's easy to convert people to belief patters using their fear and avarice. Organized religion excels at this no? But they fail at the spiritual matters and so end up working very hard to label anything outside of their teachings and claims as a form of heresy that should be exterminated and extinguished. This is why those who are called typically hide themselves and do not speak of their faith and practice. They even adopt the symbolism of their oppressors to do this.
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blessed


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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28604129 - 12/31/23 04:26 AM (27 days, 14 hours ago) |
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Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: Here’s the original post. Because you edited it in a negative fashion.
Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said:

Quote:
blessed said:
Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: Even with mistakes made. I’m a good person.
That may be true, but you are still a sinner.
How so?
But how have I sinned? Also there are tons of things not true in that. Number 11 particularly stands out to me. So you have never met anyone who sought out spiritual meaning or God? I am not a sinner. But somebody who tries to tell me, I’m gonna burn in hell for not reading that book page to page and believing every single thing in it.
 That sounds like terrorism to me.

Sorry for the delayed response. I'm going to reply to you on a point by point basis.
Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: Here’s the original post. Because you edited it in a negative fashion.
This was not intentional but merely a editing error. I've now fixed it in my previous post.
Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: But how have I sinned?
Most people if they are honest, will admit that they have done bad things. This can include lying, stealing, gossiping, losing their temper, not doing something they know they should have done, deceiving others for ones own benefit, wrongly judging others, putting others down from a sense of pride, treating others in a bad way (causing mental or physical harm) and so on. Now I'm not going to pretend to know you but I'm sure you've done at least one or more thing that I just mentioned. I'm also quite sure you've also broken one or more of the 10 Commandments.
Now from the Bibles point of view, a sin is the breaking of God's law. This means if you lie (even just once), then you have committed a sin. Now the same can be said of the laws of the land. Should you go over the speed limit while driving you would be a law breaker. Now while you may not go to jail for going over the speed limit, if you were honest you would have to admit that you've broken the law (of the land). The same principle applies with us and sin.
Now there's also another aspect to sin. Thanks (or no thanks) to Adam & Eve's disobedience (breaking God's laws) sin entered and now all men are destined to die. This dying is not because of the result of the natural ageing process but a direct result of sin (breaking God's commandments). I'd like to mention also that prior to man committing sin, that death was not a reality for mankind. Now, your and my problem is this......, just like a mother that has aids will have babies that also have aids, we are all offspring of sinful parents/people (right back to Adam & Eve). So you see, even a new born baby, has the sin nature and not only that, he or she also carries with in them the curse and penalty of sin too, which is death. This is in fact everyone's lot, everyone.
Long story short if you are honest with yourself, you can't deny you have sinned (according to the Bible definition of what sin is). That is, disobeyed and broken God's commandments and wronged your fellow man.
Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: Also there are tons of things not true in that. Number 11 particularly stands out to me. So you have never met anyone who sought out spiritual meaning or God?
I'd like to answer this in two ways.
First, can an unborn child meet their parents? In the same manner we are created by God and in this, the only way we could ever know (or seek him out) is that he first made us. On this point, in making us, he made it possible to know him, and without him making us, it IS impossible.
Second, every person is born with a sin nature, and by default there is no (genuine) desire (within us) to seek and find and know God. Now we live in a time where we can share idea's, opinion's, world views, beliefs, and knowledge (some fact's and some theories), but it hasn't always been like this. Still even with the way the world is today, we as individuals are no different from people who live before technology made the world smaller allowing many to communicate and share information (right and wrong) at a speed that is quite something. Now today children are brought up being taught (many things) both from their parents and from society and yet this simple fact remains, that unless we are taught something we will not know of it.
Maybe a good way to say it concerns myself. I would not have believed in God if my parents hadn't also believed in God, and in doing so forced me to go to church. Now if you take away my parents belief in God, and also removed all that made them know about God, then my parents would not have known about God at all and they would have not made me go to church. Apparently there have been those in the past that have wanted to rid the world of the Bible, and had they succeeded I would not be having this conversation with you today.
So I agree with what the Bible says in that no one (genuinely) seeks out God. Now the Bible says,
Psalm 119:130 The entrance of Your words gives light; It gives understanding to the simple.
In this context, we are all walking in darkness, and only by God's word can we come to know the truth. The truth of God, and the truth of ourselves.
Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: I am not a sinner. But somebody who tries to tell me, I’m gonna burn in hell for not reading that book page to page and believing every single thing in it.

First, whether you like it or not, whether you believe it or not, fact remain, the Bible calls you a sinner.
Second, you are wrong in thinking that you are going to hell because (as you say), "for not reading that book page to page and believing every single thing in it.". This is not what the Bible says at all.
Seems you've ether been, a. lied to (willfully). b. misled (not intentional but still same end result). c. You haven't truly seek'd out God and therefor never found the truth because you were never really looking for it? Note - Some/Many people open the Bible not to find the truth it contains, but their desire is (before they even read one verse) is to find reasons NOT to believe. d. Some of all the above.
Lastly to call the Bible and it's message (or the sharing of it) as terrorism is an very interesting take on where you stand concerning the Bible. First of all, no one is holding a gun to your head saying believe or you're dead. The Bible presents it's self as "The Truth" and leaves each person to ether believe it or not (accept or reject). Again, there is NO gun to your head.
Now only lies are terrified (terrorized) of, and by truth, and if the Bible and it's message is an act of terrorism (as you say), it is only to "the lie", and those that love "the lie". It does this in that it will ultimately destroy/exposes the foundation ("the lie") on which a person stand and how they live their life, which is..............., the lie that there is no God and that we are not accountable to him.
The Bible just sit there waiting to be opened. Now one of the things that God does require of the reader is that they ether believe (have faith) in the message of the cross or they don't. If one believes then great, if one does not believe then also great. The main issue that both those who believe and those who don't will have to one day deal with is this, the consequence of their choice (concerning the Bible). Simple as that.
Edited by blessed (12/31/23 04:34 AM)
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,322
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] 1
#28604310 - 12/31/23 08:15 AM (27 days, 10 hours ago) |
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Raised in a very strict religious family and I am the only non follower I struggle to believe in a god so judgemental. Yet tend to follow a lot of what I was taught. I think organized religion inhibits people from thinking and being themselves. I think things I was raised to believe as sin no longer makes sense to me. Like premarital sex for example I don't care who you have sex with or how I do care if you lie, harm others and are judgemental Religion caused me a lot of harm But I knew no different. I spent many years disliking myself for things I did For years I was confused and thought I was damned for eternity It really messes with you It messed with me bad The rejection is debilitating When you're the non follower I respect and understand others following But I can't do it I see so many unhappy people that stay in marriages they shouldn't and live an unfulfilled life so they can be eternally happy Not for me
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“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”
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syncro
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: loladoreen] 1
#28604391 - 12/31/23 09:45 AM (27 days, 9 hours ago) |
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In contemplation or trance, we can see that the spirit has no such judgement, even if one spends the morning cussing it out beforehand. It knows nothing of it. This is not to deny the reaping of that which is sown and the laws of things. That which is sown must be reaped in its own nature it seems, or lower nature for that inclined and likewise the higher.
'Judge not.' Sin is in judgement, the first stone and all. Writing it I'm reminded of the impossibility of doing so in the world, but we are told not to be of the world.
Edited by syncro (12/31/23 09:52 AM)
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: syncro] 2
#28604397 - 12/31/23 09:49 AM (27 days, 9 hours ago) |
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I think the saint is signified by not expecting return from their deeds.
The priest, well, he wants to go to heaven.
If judgement isn't static it's not a sin, only an exploration, step by step. Is it still judgement if the judgment isn't static?
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Freedom
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: blessed]
#28604415 - 12/31/23 10:00 AM (27 days, 9 hours ago) |
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Quote:
blessed said:
Lastly to call the Bible and it's message (or the sharing of it) as terrorism is an very interesting take on where you stand concerning the Bible. First of all, no one is holding a gun to your head saying believe or you're dead.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_trauma_syndrome
Quote:
RTS begins in toxic religious environments centered around two basic narratives: "You are not okay" and "You are not safe."[6] These ideas are often enforced by theology such as the doctrines of original sin and hell.[6]
The development of RTS can be compared to the development of Complex PTSD, defined as a psychological disorder that can develop in response to prolonged, repeated experience of interpersonal trauma in a context in which the individual has little or no chance of escape. Symptoms of RTS are a natural response to the perceived existence of a violent, all-powerful God who finds humans inherently defective, along with regular exposure to religious leaders who use the threat of eternal death, unredeemable life, demon possession and many other frightening ideas to control religious devotion and the submission of group members.[1]
Members of the LGBTQIA+ community are at particular risk of RTS and C-PTSD as they attempt, over an extended period of time, to alter their sexual orientation and gender identity to fit the expectations of authoritarian religious communities. The process of attempting to alter one's orientation can create emotionally abusive thought patterns that are prone to exacerbate the C-PTSD-like symptoms of RTS. Chronically living in fear of eternal damnation and lifelong separation from loved ones and religious communities if they fail to comply with sexual identity restrictions can induce long-term symptoms of RTS.[7][8]
Leaving Leaving a controlling religious community, while often experienced as liberating and exciting, can be experienced as a major traumatic event. Religious communities often serve as the foundation for individuals' lives, providing social support, a coherent worldview, a sense of meaning and purpose, and social and emotional satisfaction. Leaving behind all those resources goes beyond a significant loss; it calls on the individual to completely reconstruct their reality, often while newly isolated from the help and support of family and friends who stay in the religion.[3][9][10]
In addition, when violent or threatening theology, such as a belief in hell, divine punishment, demons, and an evil "outside world," have been incorporated into the basic structure of an individual's worldview, the threats of engaging the outside world instead of remaining in the safe bubble of the controlling religious community can induce further anxiety.[1][7][9]
As individuals identify the harm they are experiencing in authoritarian religious settings, their concerns may be minimized by the religious group itself, but they can also be compounded by society's investment in positive views of religion.[3] Institutional betrayal, first at the hands of beloved religious communities, second at the hands of a world that upholds the utility of religion rather than the experiences of religious abuse survivors, can make symptoms of RTS worse.[3] People leaving religion can experience extreme hostility from their former co-religionists.[11]
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,322
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28604418 - 12/31/23 10:01 AM (27 days, 9 hours ago) |
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It's very traumatizing
--------------------
“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”
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Freedom
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: loladoreen]
#28604421 - 12/31/23 10:05 AM (27 days, 9 hours ago) |
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My grandmother had borderline and was split within herself the good and bad parts, and she totally identified with catholicism, was terrified of the devil. I wonder how much that fear made her split within herself.
She put that on her children, and it was really harmful.
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syncro
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: sudly]
#28604481 - 12/31/23 10:52 AM (27 days, 8 hours ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: I think the saint is signified by not expecting return from their deeds.
The priest, well, he wants to go to heaven.
If judgement isn't static it's not a sin, only an exploration, step by step. Is it still judgement if the judgment isn't static?
If I'm interpreting correctly, this is how sin is treated in ACIM saying on one hand we are not sinners which is why some fundamentalists are against it (being spoken as Christ), but after the clarification, the term sin is used for its usual connotations of ignorance etc.
Fundamentally sin seems to be treated as static, a constant taint on us which is odd because it also gives an easy redemption of them, formalities and particular words aside.
Also ego seems to be a persistent taint, our tendency to degradation, judgement, so to me both angles can be appreciated.
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Nillion
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28604483 - 12/31/23 10:54 AM (27 days, 8 hours ago) |
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Quote:
durian_2008 said: Christians believe that the kingdom of God is within a person.
I don't see too many people today who believe that, but it is a correct reading of Christian teachings in my opinion. A lot of them misunderstand that stuff and make it into a claim about a magic eternal kingdom in an afterlife.
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syncro
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: syncro]
#28604513 - 12/31/23 11:28 AM (27 days, 7 hours ago) |
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The traumatizing stuff we would toss in the trash, but considering the basest of men, those that would murder, steal and destroy without concern, the fire and brimstone may be be applicable as a 'Hail Mary'.
but that it was not lawfull for men to understand the knowledge of those things, because, whereas they have but a short time to live, they study mischief with all their might, and attempt all manner of wickedness; if they should be sure of a very long time, they would not spare the Gods themselves. -Agrippa
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: blessed]
#28604536 - 12/31/23 11:52 AM (27 days, 7 hours ago) |
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Babies are without sin. There is no inherent evil inside of everyone. Because everyone is capable of being an angel or a devil. To seek out meaning and existence is inherent. It is part of our struggle here. A baby that died. Is not going to hell because it wasn’t held under some water. Somebody who is mentally unfit and cannot attend mass. Is not damned for eternity.
I reject that notion.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28604538 - 12/31/23 11:55 AM (27 days, 7 hours ago) |
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Here’s another example.
My grandmother was a deeply Catholic woman. She believed completely in God. When she was struck down with cancer. She could not move. She laid in bed praying every day. When the time was finally upon her. The priest from the Catholic Church grabbed his bag and went to her house. He went into her bedroom. There he performed her last rights.
Something that is not supposed to be done, unless it is in the church. But to quote that man “ God is with this woman, if anyone deserved these rights, it is her. Regardless of where we are.”
The rigidity to which these rules must be followed. Does not bring us closer to God. It’s a guideline. It’s a way to get you onto the path. If you stray from the path but you’re still walking it. You’re not going to be turned away. There’s no way that somebody who served God every day completely. Would be sent away because their last rights weren’t read to them in a church when they physically couldn’t go to it.
God would never be that cruel.
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Nillion
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28604566 - 12/31/23 12:13 PM (27 days, 6 hours ago) |
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Any God that would damn an unbaptized child to an eternity of torture is an evil God. Anyone who serves such a God serves evil.
God cannot commit an act that would be evil if done by others and make it righteous just because God is the one doing it. It doesn't work that way.
Anyone with a pure heart who is not an idiot knows this without question.
Edited by Nillion (12/31/23 12:16 PM)
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28604658 - 12/31/23 02:10 PM (27 days, 5 hours ago) |
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I think that it's evil to inflict moral injury on others, by posing hypothetical moral dilemmas, ad infinitum, so take a revisionist approach to social justice narratives.
I find that normies typically like to virtue signal, venally, to put their typical moral compass on display.
The reprobates and nihilists like to posit no-win situations, to show everyone their hopelessness, bonding by commiseration. There is no way to honor the line of inquiry without accepting some kind of imaginary loss.
I don't feel that way.
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Freedom
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28604661 - 12/31/23 02:14 PM (27 days, 4 hours ago) |
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Quote:
durian_2008 said: I think that it's evil to inflict moral injury on others, by posing hypothetical moral dilemmas, ad infinitum, so take a revisionist approach to social justice narratives.
I find that normies typically like to virtue signal, venally, to put their typical moral compass on display.
The reprobates and nihilists like to posit no-win situations, to show everyone their hopelessness, bonding by commiseration. There is no way to honor the line of inquiry without accepting some kind of imaginary loss.
I don't feel that way.
good points, how to be free of all that?
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: Freedom]
#28604668 - 12/31/23 02:20 PM (27 days, 4 hours ago) |
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Thanks.
Only make time for equivalent exchange.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28604690 - 12/31/23 02:48 PM (27 days, 4 hours ago) |
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Quote:
durian_2008 said: I think that it's evil to inflict moral injury on others, by posing hypothetical moral dilemmas, ad infinitum, so take a revisionist approach to social justice narratives.
I find that normies typically like to virtue signal, venally, to put their typical moral compass on display.
The reprobates and nihilists like to posit no-win situations, to show everyone their hopelessness, bonding by commiseration. There is no way to honor the line of inquiry without accepting some kind of imaginary loss.
I don't feel that way.
I just like to ask questions. I don’t let people inflict moral punishment upon me without a basis in reality. I am a good person. Not memorizing a book isn’t going to impact that.
Someone asking a question should never threaten you on a spiritual basis. Unless there’s something wrong with you spiritually.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28604696 - 12/31/23 02:55 PM (27 days, 4 hours ago) |
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Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: I just like to ask questions.
They were structured, methodically, so there was no way of a clean, win-win outcome.
Why not ask people about something that makes them happy or better?
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
#28604707 - 12/31/23 03:08 PM (27 days, 4 hours ago) |
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Why do you keep not answering my questions in the wrong threads?
 What are you hiding?
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Freedom
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] 2
#28604785 - 12/31/23 03:56 PM (27 days, 3 hours ago) |
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I think as long as one identifies with their beliefs, they will feel threatened when those beliefs are challenged....
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: Freedom]
#28604827 - 12/31/23 04:13 PM (27 days, 2 hours ago) |
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During lockdown, I walked my dog, got suntanned, and focused on self improvement.
Some of my more activistic neighbors would objectively be threatening to my physical person, not just my philosophy.
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syncro
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28605827 - 01/01/24 12:58 PM (26 days, 6 hours ago) |
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There's nothing wrong with helping others to help yourself, blessing others to bless yourself. It is exactly the law we need to see. One who does in spontaneity, more power to them. Who will be perfect? Very few which is the purpose and need in embracing the law, not worrying about insincerity or split mind. Following the law is the solution.
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blessed


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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: Freedom]
#28615764 - 01/09/24 09:45 PM (17 days, 21 hours ago) |
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Quote:
loladoreen said: Raised in a very strict religious family and I am the only non follower I struggle to believe in a god so judgemental. Yet tend to follow a lot of what I was taught. I think organized religion inhibits people from thinking and being themselves. I think things I was raised to believe as sin no longer makes sense to me. Like premarital sex for example I don't care who you have sex with or how I do care if you lie, harm others and are judgemental Religion caused me a lot of harm But I knew no different. I spent many years disliking myself for things I did For years I was confused and thought I was damned for eternity It really messes with you It messed with me bad The rejection is debilitating When you're the non follower I respect and understand others following But I can't do it I see so many unhappy people that stay in marriages they shouldn't and live an unfulfilled life so they can be eternally happy Not for me
Quote:
Freedom said:
Quote:
blessed said:
Lastly to call the Bible and it's message (or the sharing of it) as terrorism is an very interesting take on where you stand concerning the Bible. First of all, no one is holding a gun to your head saying believe or you're dead.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_trauma_syndrome
Quote:
RTS begins in toxic religious environments centered around two basic narratives: "You are not okay" and "You are not safe."[6] These ideas are often enforced by theology such as the doctrines of original sin and hell.[6]
The development of RTS can be compared to the development of Complex PTSD, defined as a psychological disorder that can develop in response to prolonged, repeated experience of interpersonal trauma in a context in which the individual has little or no chance of escape. Symptoms of RTS are a natural response to the perceived existence of a violent, all-powerful God who finds humans inherently defective, along with regular exposure to religious leaders who use the threat of eternal death, unredeemable life, demon possession and many other frightening ideas to control religious devotion and the submission of group members.[1]
Members of the LGBTQIA+ community are at particular risk of RTS and C-PTSD as they attempt, over an extended period of time, to alter their sexual orientation and gender identity to fit the expectations of authoritarian religious communities. The process of attempting to alter one's orientation can create emotionally abusive thought patterns that are prone to exacerbate the C-PTSD-like symptoms of RTS. Chronically living in fear of eternal damnation and lifelong separation from loved ones and religious communities if they fail to comply with sexual identity restrictions can induce long-term symptoms of RTS.[7][8]
Leaving Leaving a controlling religious community, while often experienced as liberating and exciting, can be experienced as a major traumatic event. Religious communities often serve as the foundation for individuals' lives, providing social support, a coherent worldview, a sense of meaning and purpose, and social and emotional satisfaction. Leaving behind all those resources goes beyond a significant loss; it calls on the individual to completely reconstruct their reality, often while newly isolated from the help and support of family and friends who stay in the religion.[3][9][10]
In addition, when violent or threatening theology, such as a belief in hell, divine punishment, demons, and an evil "outside world," have been incorporated into the basic structure of an individual's worldview, the threats of engaging the outside world instead of remaining in the safe bubble of the controlling religious community can induce further anxiety.[1][7][9]
As individuals identify the harm they are experiencing in authoritarian religious settings, their concerns may be minimized by the religious group itself, but they can also be compounded by society's investment in positive views of religion.[3] Institutional betrayal, first at the hands of beloved religious communities, second at the hands of a world that upholds the utility of religion rather than the experiences of religious abuse survivors, can make symptoms of RTS worse.[3] People leaving religion can experience extreme hostility from their former co-religionists.[11]
Hello loladoreen & Freedom.
It's a sad reality of life that both your experience's happened, and worse that it happens as much as it does to so many people.
That being said, I would like to respond to you both on this subject next time I log on.
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Alyssa
consecrated woman ✝️

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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: blessed]
#28615801 - 01/09/24 10:18 PM (17 days, 20 hours ago) |
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How much of a spiritual chance are you willing to take to avoid facing emotional trauma? How long are you willing to feel less than the ideal amount of comfort to be able to save someone else's soul? Are you willing to be martyred so someone else can have heaven instead of hell? If not, why are you so attached to your mortal life? It's going to last another 120 years max. Then you have a potentially infinite number of years in the reality where God can put your body back together with celestial matter manipulation technology (if you think of God as being able to do anything with the universe because he's outside it, it's not that difficult to believe in miracles). Don't push it!
-------------------- I'm Alyssa. I'm consecrated to the Immaculate Heart. I don't want her to have to look at adultery to save my privileged living cells, so please keep it PG-13.
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blessed


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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28615802 - 01/09/24 10:18 PM (17 days, 20 hours ago) |
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Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: Babies are without sin. There is no inherent evil inside of everyone. Because everyone is capable of being an angel or a devil. To seek out meaning and existence is inherent. It is part of our struggle here. A baby that died. Is not going to hell because it wasn’t held under some water. Somebody who is mentally unfit and cannot attend mass. Is not damned for eternity. I reject that notion.
If you reject what the Bible says is true then that's ok with me. I strongly believe that each person has to make their own decision and choice when it comes to the Bible and what it says. As you have rejected it, I think that our conversation on sin has naturally come to an end.
I will however based from your replies in this thread say this, I can't help but believe that you have a totally incorrect understanding of what the Bible actually says and more importantly, it's message.
One example: Absolutely nowhere in the Bible does it say that if a baby dies, that it is going to hell (as you say) "because it wasn’t held under some water."
Happy New-ish Year, and all the best.
Edited by blessed (01/10/24 05:48 PM)
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Alyssa
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: blessed]
#28615807 - 01/09/24 10:22 PM (17 days, 20 hours ago) |
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Babies aren't without sin. How innocent is "innocent"? When a baby lashes out physically is she/he no longer innocent? God tests our souls from the moment of conception. He's the first to know if a fetus is likely to grow up to be a psychopath.
-------------------- I'm Alyssa. I'm consecrated to the Immaculate Heart. I don't want her to have to look at adultery to save my privileged living cells, so please keep it PG-13.
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GenesisCorrupted
Taoist, Writer, Student, Artist




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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: blessed]
#28615831 - 01/09/24 10:53 PM (17 days, 20 hours ago) |
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According to the Bible. You need to be baptized to go to heaven. If a baby isn’t baptized, it goes to purgatory. That’s the “good word” for ya. Legitimately a happy New Year’s to you.
Edited by GenesisCorrupted (01/09/24 11:47 PM)
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AnattaAtman
Mad Bodhisattva

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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] 1
#28615904 - 01/10/24 01:29 AM (17 days, 17 hours ago) |
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There is even a special word for the baby hell. It's called "Limbo".
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GenesisCorrupted
Taoist, Writer, Student, Artist




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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: AnattaAtman]
#28615906 - 01/10/24 01:38 AM (17 days, 17 hours ago) |
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Quote:
AnattaAtman said: There is even a special word for the baby hell. It's called "Limbo".
How sick is that right? No babies go to hell. I don’t care what a book says. Babies are innocent. They don’t get punished. That is just another attempt to terrify you into following their religion or else.
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blessed


Registered: 07/16/11
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28622055 - 01/15/24 11:20 AM (12 days, 7 hours ago) |
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Quote:
loladoreen said: Raised in a very strict religious family and I am the only non follower I struggle to believe in a god so judgemental. Yet tend to follow a lot of what I was taught. I think organized religion inhibits people from thinking and being themselves. I think things I was raised to believe as sin no longer makes sense to me. Like premarital sex for example I don't care who you have sex with or how I do care if you lie, harm others and are judgemental Religion caused me a lot of harm But I knew no different. I spent many years disliking myself for things I did For years I was confused and thought I was damned for eternity It really messes with you It messed with me bad The rejection is debilitating When you're the non follower I respect and understand others following But I can't do it I see so many unhappy people that stay in marriages they shouldn't and live an unfulfilled life so they can be eternally happy Not for me
Quote:
Freedom said:
Quote:
blessed said:
Lastly to call the Bible and it's message (or the sharing of it) as terrorism is an very interesting take on where you stand concerning the Bible. First of all, no one is holding a gun to your head saying believe or you're dead.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_trauma_syndrome
Quote:
RTS begins in toxic religious environments centered around two basic narratives: "You are not okay" and "You are not safe."[6] These ideas are often enforced by theology such as the doctrines of original sin and hell.[6]
The development of RTS can be compared to the development of Complex PTSD, defined as a psychological disorder that can develop in response to prolonged, repeated experience of interpersonal trauma in a context in which the individual has little or no chance of escape. Symptoms of RTS are a natural response to the perceived existence of a violent, all-powerful God who finds humans inherently defective, along with regular exposure to religious leaders who use the threat of eternal death, unredeemable life, demon possession and many other frightening ideas to control religious devotion and the submission of group members.[1]
Members of the LGBTQIA+ community are at particular risk of RTS and C-PTSD as they attempt, over an extended period of time, to alter their sexual orientation and gender identity to fit the expectations of authoritarian religious communities. The process of attempting to alter one's orientation can create emotionally abusive thought patterns that are prone to exacerbate the C-PTSD-like symptoms of RTS. Chronically living in fear of eternal damnation and lifelong separation from loved ones and religious communities if they fail to comply with sexual identity restrictions can induce long-term symptoms of RTS.[7][8]
Leaving Leaving a controlling religious community, while often experienced as liberating and exciting, can be experienced as a major traumatic event. Religious communities often serve as the foundation for individuals' lives, providing social support, a coherent worldview, a sense of meaning and purpose, and social and emotional satisfaction. Leaving behind all those resources goes beyond a significant loss; it calls on the individual to completely reconstruct their reality, often while newly isolated from the help and support of family and friends who stay in the religion.[3][9][10]
In addition, when violent or threatening theology, such as a belief in hell, divine punishment, demons, and an evil "outside world," have been incorporated into the basic structure of an individual's worldview, the threats of engaging the outside world instead of remaining in the safe bubble of the controlling religious community can induce further anxiety.[1][7][9]
As individuals identify the harm they are experiencing in authoritarian religious settings, their concerns may be minimized by the religious group itself, but they can also be compounded by society's investment in positive views of religion.[3] Institutional betrayal, first at the hands of beloved religious communities, second at the hands of a world that upholds the utility of religion rather than the experiences of religious abuse survivors, can make symptoms of RTS worse.[3] People leaving religion can experience extreme hostility from their former co-religionists.[11]
Hello again.
Whether we like it or not, It's a fact of life that all parents can (and do) have a large an impact on their children lives. This happens regardless of whether the parents are religious or not . Every child is greatly impacted (as an adult) by how they were raised. So my first point is this, both religious & non religious parents have for generations after generations poorly raise their children, so It is therefor incorrect to point the finger solely at parents who believe in the God of the Bible. But as the subject matter is the life long scars and damage caused by religious parents as raised in this thread by both loladoreen & Freedom, I will now try to address this, but please do not forget that many, many, many non religious parents have also caused life long damage and scars to children (using a form of fear to keep their kids in-line or downtrodden). My intention is to approach this problem from the point of view of what the Bible actually says.
But first, I'd like to start with my own parents who forced us (my brothers & sisters) to go to church from a young age. Now while I feel that overall my parents did a poor job of raising us, I have to say that other then the forced going to church (which I'm now glad they did), the biggest issues that I actually have against my parents have little to nothing to do with their belief in God or how they used the Bible to raise us up. Now my father did smack us on occasions, but this wasn't like every day or week, and when he did it was only after we did something wrong (9 times out of 10). Despite this fact, I can honestly say I hold no grudge against him concerning his form of discipline. I would like to add that my parents never ever used the fear of hell, to correct me or make me feel afraid of God, never.
Now for my second point, there is nowhere in the Bible that parents are instructed to treat their children in a, bad , abusive , demeaning , fear based ("you're going to hell if you don't eat your vegetables") , with verbal or physical attacks, or by treating them like scum. Any parent that does raise their children in such manner is definitely sure to cause mental scars and life long struggles for a child, and to do so is wrong, but my point is this, there are no parents who could justifiably justify raising up a child like this and be able to quote from the Bible as the guide lines for such an poor upbringing. It's 100% not biblical.
So if the Bible isn't instructing parents to raise their children in such a harmful way, what then could be the possible reasons for this sad reality to occur?
A few possible reason.
First I say that no parent does a perfect job, and when you add the dynamic of different children with different types of personality, I think it's safe to say that no matter how hard any parents try to raise their kids correctly, there is always going to be some form of hurt or emotional scar that will affect the child growing up. Now another reason is that when children are raised by religious parents, they will typically be raised by a certain type of parent (please see below). Now the type of religious parent a child has will usually determine the likelihood of RTS (religious trauma syndrome). But because of the complexities of family life this is not always the case.
Religious Parent Types
Parent Type A: These parent themselves had bad parents and upbringing and this is unconsciously carried out through in how they raise their children (monkey see, monkey do). Now these types of parents will typically handle or treat situations primarily from the poor lessons they learned by being raised by their own parents. Now regardless of if these people do (or come to) believe in God, without being corrected, they will by default treat their children like they were treated. This was the fact for both of my parents, and I recognize that their poor upbringing directly negatively affected mine, but I want to add that what the Bible has to say had nothing to do with my poor upbringing and that it was a result of my parents having worse parents themselves.
Parent Type B: These parents while not having been raised poorly have (for whatever reason) decided to have religion in their life (maybe it's the family's religion). Now for these parents their religion is more about a socializing then actually truly believing in God and taking up their daily cross to follow him. These people will typically be in churches that do not hold to the true teaching of the Bible, but instead offer a replacement religion that still give the follower a belief in God and a community to be part of. The problem with religion/churches like these are that they don't require said believer/parishioner to actually believe and obey the Bible. It's more about keeping a seat warm once a week (or a year) and following a couple of simple rules and that with the occasional confession and prayer (especially just before passing away), is all they need to do to have their salvation assured (nothing could be further from the truth). The parents who most likely fits this type will be Catholics or similar churches like the Church of England.
Parent Type C: These are the parents that for whatever reason follow extreme teachings and will typically be parts of what some would consider cults or fanatical fundamental churches. Now there can be many reasons why people join cults but for those that join religious cults I am 100% confident that none of them read the Bible and just from that was, lead to join such extreme cults or churches. My argument is that there has to be another factor that makes them want to join extreme religious places. Now here's were things get ugly, when these parents have children they inevitably will raise their children in the extreme teachings. This is the one of the worst possible thing for a child to experience and grow up in, as it will most likely affect their life (usually for the worst).
My Conclusion.
Both (B & C) types of parents are not true Christians according to the Bible own standards and so, while they may be able to quote some Bible verses here and there, when it comes to raising a child, they (the parents) by rejecting the truth of the Bible and subsequently taking verses out of context, will very likely raise a child in a poor harmful manner and therefor it's not surprising that people experience upbringings like loladoreen did. Sorry to tell you this loladoreen, but your parents aren't true Biblical Christians. Is it any wonder why such parents incorrectly quote the Bible and use fear (instead of love) and put downs (instead of uplifting encouragement) when it comes to raising their children. It is these types of parents that do the majority of all of the damage and abuse that children are subjected to growing up when it comes to religious parents.
Freedoms post about RTS (religious trauma syndrome) is therefor I believe a direct result of religious parents B & C, and as these parents ain't true Christians, to use it against the God of the Bible as if he and his book is the cause of the problem is sorry, bullcrap. Now I'm not saying that the trauma that children face is bullcrap, but the attempt to blame God and his book when the actual cause is because of fake ass numbnuts, pretending to be Christians but like the Bible refers to such people, they are cups that are clean on the outside but dirty on the inside.
Now I wanted to share from the Bible's perspective on how God deals with children (now adults) that (for whatever the reason) have a poor or wrong, or even a fearful understanding of the God of the Bible, and how he deals with that fact, including that they now want nothing to do with him. Can God save/reach someone so damaged by fake religious parents and bring them (the hurt and damage child/adult) back to a right and true understating of him and the Bible?, according to God's words, yes he can (Romans 8:35-39).
I'll end with a question.
If you were to write a teaching/instruction book (on anything) and some of the readers of your book didn't correctly follow your instructions which led to them (and those around them) experiencing problems of various sorts, would it be your fault or that of the one who did not correctly follow your instructions/teaching? In addition, would you gladly accept criticism or complaints by those who did not correct follow your teaching/instructions, or would you reject their complaints as you know it's not your teaching that caused the problem, but that the fault lies with those who didn't follow the instructions correctly?
............
TLDR
Please stop blaming the God of the Bible for the things dumb, stupid, 2-faced c@nts, lying, sick, depraved, evil sacks of poops (aka people/humans) do!!!!!!
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Nillion
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Registered: 04/14/22
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: blessed] 1
#28622073 - 01/15/24 11:38 AM (12 days, 7 hours ago) |
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Quote:
blessed said: Now for my second point, there is nowhere in the Bible that parents are instructed to treat their children in a, bad , abusive , demeaning , fear based ("you're going to hell if you don't eat your vegetables") , with verbal or physical attacks, or by treating them like scum.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Quote:
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
It literally says that if your kid is not obedient then take them before the elders and make false accusations about them being gluttons and drunkards so that they will be stoned to death.
The Bible is so fucked when it comes to parenting that it's not even funny.
The loyalty test of telling Abraham to kill his son is an example of that.
And then you have to realize it comes from Judaism, which traditionally is NOT child friendly. Find any copy of the Babylonian Talmud and look up Mishnah Niddah 5:4. It's about how a man can become betrothed to female child who is 3 years and one day old by having sex with her. If she is younger than this, it says it doesn't count, same if she doesn't bleed.
Both the Bible and Judaism treat children horrifically.
The exception to this are the Teachings of Jesus, but he was baptized a Mandaean, he wasn't a practitioner of Judaism in any way shape or form. He abandoned it quite early in his life when he was in Egypt. In fact his family had a Rabbi traveling with them when this occurred and in the Talmud, again, they talk shit on him for this and say he became a brick-worshiper. His teachings have nothing to do with Judaism.
In fact, in the Bible there is a quote about what he actually thought about Judaism. It is John 8:44-45:
Quote:
You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.
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Nillion
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28622227 - 01/15/24 01:59 PM (12 days, 5 hours ago) |
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I always hint that I have more but don't share it. Well, I'm sharing a bit of the life of Jesus now. Here's a synopsis of the real story:
In some other ancient texts and accounts, which Catholics used to murder people for having after the vote at Nicaea, the story of the man we call Jesus today is very different.
Jesus’ mother was in the line of hereditary succession for both the throne of Judea and the position of high priest. She was also betrothed to a man from an early age, she was not given a choice in this.
When she was young, she fell in love with a man and had a child with him. This man was not the one she was betrothed to. According to Judaic law she was to be stoned to death while pregnant. She knew that forcing little girls to marry people was wrong and that there is no sin in love. This is why it is said she bore Jesus without sin. Not because she never had sex or because he was half deity, but because there is no sin in a woman determining the course of her own life. Judaism historically, however, says otherwise.
A man was trying to gain control of Judea by marrying into the royal family. He sought to have all the male heirs to the throne killed, this allowed him to marry a woman from the royal line and it was his hope that this would legitimize his rule over Judea in the mind of the people, who were mainly Jews. His name was Herod. The woman we call Mary had already gone into hiding when pregnant and had concealed that there was a child. That was until three men entered the kingdom asking where the kid was, not because the saw a magic star that guided them, but because they heard from other human beings about how she had given birth and her son was legitimately in both the line of royal succession and in the line of the high priest succession. Herod was furious because this child had been hidden from him and he sent people out to kill the kid. This caused the family to go to Egypt. It was there in Alexandria that Jesus was initiated into the scribal tradition and learned to read and write, among other things.
And get this, she ended up marrying the guy she was betrothed to in the end and he was like a father to Jesus and considered his wife without sin. He wasn’t a bad guy at all.
Eventually Herod died and they returned thinking things were cool. Jesus became a Nazarene, which is the name of the Mandaean priests. This is why he was called Jesus of Nazarus. The title meant literally that he was a priest of that religion, baptized by John the Baptist. Eventually Jesus went out teaching and developed an enormous following, he was very intelligent and kind and well loved. He also preached things like forgiveness, which is basically blasphemy to old school Judaism. When his travels took him to Jerusalem he caught the attention of the authorities and he was identified as the son of his mother, he was considered living proof of her adultery. In Jerusalem he had few followers and the Jews captured him and brought him to Pilate and Pilate found him innocent of any crimes. However the Pharisees were furious, they bribed Pilate with 30 pieces of silver and he turned Jesus over to them. They stoned him to death and then hung his body on a cross shaped like an X, Pilate was disgusted and knowing that Jesus was literally Judaic royalty had his soldiers put a sign on the corpse that said basically “this is what Jews do to their Kings” and the Jews kept taking the sign down and Pilate kept having his guys put one back up. Then the corpse disappeared and was never seen again.
This was so horrific, brutal and evil that it caused a massive political movement that totally changed Judea and Jerusalem, not that long after his murder the number of followers Jesus had vastly increased. There were several sects, but eventually as a way to control the political issue Rome converted to Christianity by renaming all things Roman as Christian and then making it punishable by death to practice any other form of Christianity. This happened under Constantine, who after his so called conversion killed far more Christians than he did when he was a pagan. Rome kept the same location, rites, days of worship and more of their Pagan ways. They changed the doctrine to reflect the Roman pagan claim that Gods mate with humans and made Jesus a new form of Hercules. Eventually we get to Nicaea and the Nicene Creed when the neopagan Catholics voted on what they thought was true in regard to Jesus and came up with the version we have in the bible today.
I know more about this than any Christian I have ever met, because they just assume the Bible is true and don’t look for other accounts and records of the life of Jesus and his mother.
And as for Q source, Tatianus didn’t combine the synoptics into a harmony, that was the original work, it had 3 perspectives together in one tale and then later to flesh the material out more they were separated into 3 books, which were 80% verbatim because of their origin. Justin, Tatianus’ teacher, wrote the book we call John. The rest were Pauline inventions from later. I’ve thought about writing about this, but I keep a lot to myself and just keep learning. This isn’t even the detailed version of these events. There are more details and aspects, like about the trial where Pilate found Jesus innocent before the bribe.
Christ taught salvation through good conduct, he never taught that he was magically going to make it so that sinners who accepted him as master were immune from the consequences of sin. He also never taught that he was the son of the God of the Jews. That’s all stuff that came later from organized religion that perverted his teachings into a way to control people and make money from them while doing it.
Christians today think that we know almost nothing about the life of Jesus Christ, but that isn’t true, they just reject the truth because it doesn’t fit their magical narrative of a Jewish God making his son a human sacrifice for the good of all mankind.
At least, this is what I've learned about the matter through years of study. I'm not sharing this synopsis here to offend Christians, Jews or Catholics, but so that people have a chance to hear the historically accurate account rather than the one told by religions that want their money. Naturally, I've not written of this in public before and may even delete this post at some point. I generally keep things like this private out of respect for the beliefs of others but perhaps some here can appreciate that Jesus was real, he isn't made up, but the real story is far more fucked up and sad than the bible version is.
Anyway, if this offends you feel free to add me to your ignore list.
Edited by Nillion (01/16/24 07:56 AM)
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Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28622246 - 01/15/24 02:13 PM (12 days, 4 hours ago) |
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Incidentally the synoptic gospels were based on accounts of Jesus' teachings (logoi) and life and though they were messed up by the Catholics they still contain some direct teachings such as the two christian commandments and more. Much of the sermon on the Mount contains actual teachings of Jesus, though not every word is accurate.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: blessed] 2
#28622372 - 01/15/24 04:19 PM (12 days, 2 hours ago) |
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Quote:
blessed said:
Please stop blaming the God of the Bible for the things dumb, stupid, 2-faced c@nts, lying, sick, depraved, evil sacks of poops (aka people/humans) do!!!!!!
I was responding to this statement :
Quote:
First of all, no one is holding a gun to your head saying believe or you're dead.
My point was that things aren't all one way. I've met a lot of people, especially Catholics, that had various degrees of trauma because of the way their families but beliefs on them.
The idea of the devil terrifies a lot of people. For a long time the idea of hell was so absurd to me I didn't think anyone could actually believe in it, but it was people who were terrified and shared their terror with me that convinced me they actually did believe.
There is nothing innately good or bad about squiggles of ink on paper bound together in a book, how those squiggles are interpreted and how that interpretation affects people that's important. This also can't be separated from all the other aspects of the religion and culture, in terms of main stream religion.
Over the centuries the bible has been interpreted in many different ways and used to justify or vilify many different things.
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