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Offlineblessed


Registered: 07/16/11
Posts: 1,085
Loc: ation: Tasmania Flag
Last seen: 12 days, 19 hours
Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28583440 - 12/15/23 05:24 AM (1 month, 13 days ago)

Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
I thought you meant today! šŸ˜‚

Even with mistakes made. I’m a good person.



That may be true, but you are still a sinner.


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Offlineblessed


Registered: 07/16/11
Posts: 1,085
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Last seen: 12 days, 19 hours
Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28589083 - 12/18/23 09:16 PM (1 month, 9 days ago)

Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
:lol:
Quote:

blessed said:
Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
Even with mistakes made. I’m a good person.



That may be true, but you are still a sinner.



How so?



Because the Bible says in Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

Also in the same chapter of Romans you'll find,

9  What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10  As it is written: ā€œThere is none righteous, no, not one;
11  There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
12  They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.ā€
13  ā€œTheir throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceitā€; ā€œThe poison of asps is under their lipsā€;
14  ā€œWhose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.ā€
15  ā€œTheir feet are swift to shed blood;
16  Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17  And the way of peace they have not known.ā€
18  ā€œThere is no fear of God before their eyes.ā€

and further more in Romans chapter 4:7-8

7  ā€œBlessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.ā€

And with that, there's this,

Romans 6:23  For the wages of sin is death,

You might want to consider changing that laughing out loud smiley for a crying out loud one.


Edited by blessed (12/31/23 01:06 AM)


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Offlineblessed


Registered: 07/16/11
Posts: 1,085
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Last seen: 12 days, 19 hours
Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28604129 - 12/31/23 04:26 AM (28 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
Here’s the original post. Because you edited it in a negative fashion.

Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
:lol:
Quote:

blessed said:
Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
Even with mistakes made. I’m a good person.



That may be true, but you are still a sinner.



How so?




But how have I sinned?
Also there are tons of things not true in that.
Number 11 particularly stands out to me.
So you have never met anyone who sought out spiritual meaning or God?
I am not a sinner. But somebody who tries to tell me, I’m gonna burn in hell for not reading that book page to page and believing every single thing in it.
:shrug:
That sounds like terrorism to me.




Sorry for the delayed response.  I'm going to reply to you on a point by point basis.


Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
Here’s the original post. Because you edited it in a negative fashion.



This was not intentional but merely a editing error.  I've now fixed it in my previous post.


Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
But how have I sinned?



Most people if they are honest, will admit that they have done bad things.  This can include lying, stealing, gossiping, losing their temper, not doing something they know they should have done, deceiving others for ones own benefit, wrongly judging others, putting others down from a sense of pride, treating others in a bad way (causing mental or physical harm) and so on.  Now I'm not going to pretend to know you but I'm sure you've done at least one or more thing that I just mentioned.  I'm also quite sure you've also broken one or more of the 10 Commandments.

Now from the Bibles point of view, a sin is the breaking of God's law.  This means if you lie (even just once), then you have committed a sin.  Now the same can be said of the laws of the land.  Should you go over the speed limit while driving you would be a law breaker.  Now while you may not go to jail for going over the speed limit, if you were honest you would have to admit that you've broken the law (of the land).  The same principle applies with us and sin.

Now there's also another aspect to sin.  Thanks (or no thanks) to Adam & Eve's disobedience (breaking God's laws) sin entered and now all men are destined to die.  This dying is not because of the result of the natural ageing process but a direct result of sin (breaking God's commandments). I'd like to mention also that prior to man committing sin, that death was not a reality for mankind.  Now, your and my problem is this......, just like a mother that has aids will have babies that also have aids, we are all offspring of sinful parents/people (right back to Adam & Eve).  So you see, even a new born baby, has the sin nature and not only that, he or she also carries with in them the curse and penalty of sin too, which is death.  This is in fact everyone's lot, everyone.

Long story short if you are honest with yourself, you can't deny you have sinned (according to the Bible definition of what sin is).  That is, disobeyed and broken God's commandments and wronged your fellow man.


Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
Also there are tons of things not true in that.
Number 11 particularly stands out to me.
So you have never met anyone who sought out spiritual meaning or God?



I'd like to answer this in two ways.

First, can an unborn child meet their parents?  In the same manner we are created by God and in this, the only way we could ever know (or seek him out) is that he first made us.  On this point, in making us, he made it possible to know him, and without him making us, it IS impossible.

Second,  every person is born with a sin nature, and by default there is no (genuine) desire (within us) to seek and find and know God.  Now we live in a time where we can share idea's, opinion's, world views, beliefs, and knowledge (some fact's and some theories), but it hasn't always been like this.  Still even with the way the world is today, we as individuals are no different from people who live before technology made the world smaller allowing many to communicate and share information (right and wrong) at a speed that is quite something.  Now today children are brought up being taught (many things) both from their parents and from society and yet this simple fact remains, that unless we are taught something we will not know of it.

Maybe a good way to say it concerns myself.  I would not have believed in God if my parents hadn't also believed in God, and in doing so forced me to go to church.  Now if you take away my parents belief in God, and also removed all that made them know about God, then my parents would not have known about God at all and they would have not made me go to church.  Apparently there have been those in the past that have wanted to rid the world of the Bible, and had they succeeded I would not be having this conversation with you today.

So I agree with what the Bible says in that no one (genuinely) seeks out God.  Now the Bible says,

Psalm 119:130
The entrance of Your words gives light; It gives understanding to the simple.

In this context, we are all walking in darkness, and only by God's word can we come to know the truth.  The truth of God, and the truth of ourselves.


Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
I am not a sinner. But somebody who tries to tell me, I’m gonna burn in hell for not reading that book page to page and believing every single thing in it.
:shrug:



First, whether you like it or not, whether you believe it or not, fact remain, the Bible calls you a sinner.

Second, you are wrong in thinking that you are going to hell because (as you say), "for not reading that book page to page and believing every single thing in it.".  This is not what the Bible says at all.

Seems you've ether been,
a. lied to (willfully).
b. misled (not intentional but still same end result).
c. You haven't truly seek'd out God and therefor never found the truth because you were never really looking for it?
  Note - Some/Many people open the Bible not to find the truth it contains, but their desire is (before they even read one verse) is to find reasons NOT to believe.
d. Some of all the above.


Lastly to call the Bible and it's message (or the sharing of it) as terrorism is an very interesting take on where you stand concerning the Bible.  First of all, no one is holding a gun to your head saying believe or you're dead.  The Bible presents it's self as "The Truth" and leaves each person to ether believe it or not (accept or reject).  Again, there is NO gun to your head.

Now only lies are terrified (terrorized) of, and by truth, and if the Bible and it's message is an act of terrorism (as you say), it is only to "the lie", and those that love "the lie".  It does this in that it will ultimately destroy/exposes the foundation ("the lie") on which a person stand and how they live their life,  which is..............., the lie that there is no God and that we are not accountable to him.

The Bible just sit there waiting to be opened.  Now one of the things that God does require of the reader is that they ether believe (have faith) in the message of the cross or they don't.  If one believes then great, if one does not believe then also great.  The main issue that both those who believe and those who don't will have to one day deal with is this, the consequence of their choice (concerning the Bible).  Simple as that.


Edited by blessed (12/31/23 04:34 AM)


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Offlineblessed


Registered: 07/16/11
Posts: 1,085
Loc: ation: Tasmania Flag
Last seen: 12 days, 19 hours
Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: Freedom]
    #28615764 - 01/09/24 09:45 PM (18 days, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

loladoreen said:
Raised in a very strict religious family and I am the only non follower
I struggle to believe in a god so judgemental.
Yet tend to follow a lot of what I was taught.
I think organized religion inhibits people from thinking and being themselves.
I think things I was raised to believe as sin no longer makes sense to me.
Like premarital sex for example
I don't care who you have sex with or how
I do care if you lie, harm others and are judgemental
Religion caused me a lot of harm
But
I knew no different. I spent many years disliking myself for things I did
For years I was confused and thought I was damned for eternity
It really messes with you
It messed with me bad
The rejection is debilitating
When you're the non follower
I respect and understand others following
But I can't do it
I see so many unhappy people that stay in marriages they shouldn't and live an unfulfilled life so they can be eternally happy
Not for me




Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

blessed said:

Lastly to call the Bible and it's message (or the sharing of it) as terrorism is an very interesting take on where you stand concerning the Bible.  First of all, no one is holding a gun to your head saying believe or you're dead.





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_trauma_syndrome

Quote:

RTS begins in toxic religious environments centered around two basic narratives: "You are not okay" and "You are not safe."[6] These ideas are often enforced by theology such as the doctrines of original sin and hell.[6]

The development of RTS can be compared to the development of Complex PTSD, defined as a psychological disorder that can develop in response to prolonged, repeated experience of interpersonal trauma in a context in which the individual has little or no chance of escape. Symptoms of RTS are a natural response to the perceived existence of a violent, all-powerful God who finds humans inherently defective, along with regular exposure to religious leaders who use the threat of eternal death, unredeemable life, demon possession and many other frightening ideas to control religious devotion and the submission of group members.[1]

Members of the LGBTQIA+ community are at particular risk of RTS and C-PTSD as they attempt, over an extended period of time, to alter their sexual orientation and gender identity to fit the expectations of authoritarian religious communities. The process of attempting to alter one's orientation can create emotionally abusive thought patterns that are prone to exacerbate the C-PTSD-like symptoms of RTS. Chronically living in fear of eternal damnation and lifelong separation from loved ones and religious communities if they fail to comply with sexual identity restrictions can induce long-term symptoms of RTS.[7][8]

Leaving
Leaving a controlling religious community, while often experienced as liberating and exciting, can be experienced as a major traumatic event. Religious communities often serve as the foundation for individuals' lives, providing social support, a coherent worldview, a sense of meaning and purpose, and social and emotional satisfaction. Leaving behind all those resources goes beyond a significant loss; it calls on the individual to completely reconstruct their reality, often while newly isolated from the help and support of family and friends who stay in the religion.[3][9][10]

In addition, when violent or threatening theology, such as a belief in hell, divine punishment, demons, and an evil "outside world," have been incorporated into the basic structure of an individual's worldview, the threats of engaging the outside world instead of remaining in the safe bubble of the controlling religious community can induce further anxiety.[1][7][9]

As individuals identify the harm they are experiencing in authoritarian religious settings, their concerns may be minimized by the religious group itself, but they can also be compounded by society's investment in positive views of religion.[3] Institutional betrayal, first at the hands of beloved religious communities, second at the hands of a world that upholds the utility of religion rather than the experiences of religious abuse survivors, can make symptoms of RTS worse.[3] People leaving religion can experience extreme hostility from their former co-religionists.[11]






Hello loladoreen & Freedom.

It's a sad reality of life that both your experience's happened, and worse that it happens as much as it does to so many people.

That being said, I would like to respond to you both on this subject next time I log on.


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Offlineblessed


Registered: 07/16/11
Posts: 1,085
Loc: ation: Tasmania Flag
Last seen: 12 days, 19 hours
Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28615802 - 01/09/24 10:18 PM (18 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
Babies are without sin.
There is no inherent evil inside of everyone.
Because everyone is capable of being an angel or a devil.
To seek out meaning and existence is inherent. It is part of our struggle here.
A baby that died. Is not going to hell because it wasn’t held under some water. Somebody who is mentally unfit and cannot attend mass. Is not damned for eternity.
I reject that notion.



If you reject what the Bible says is true then that's ok with me.  I strongly believe that each person has to make their own decision and choice when it comes to the Bible and what it says.  As you have rejected it, I think that our conversation on sin has naturally come to an end.

I will however based from your replies in this thread say this, I can't help but believe that you have a totally incorrect understanding of what the Bible actually says and more importantly, it's message.

One example: Absolutely nowhere in the Bible does it say that if a baby dies, that it is going to hell (as you say) "because it wasn’t held under some water."

Happy New-ish Year, and all the best. :thumbup:


Edited by blessed (01/10/24 05:48 PM)


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Offlineblessed


Registered: 07/16/11
Posts: 1,085
Loc: ation: Tasmania Flag
Last seen: 12 days, 19 hours
Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28622055 - 01/15/24 11:20 AM (12 days, 19 hours ago)

Quote:

loladoreen said:
Raised in a very strict religious family and I am the only non follower
I struggle to believe in a god so judgemental.
Yet tend to follow a lot of what I was taught.
I think organized religion inhibits people from thinking and being themselves.
I think things I was raised to believe as sin no longer makes sense to me.
Like premarital sex for example
I don't care who you have sex with or how
I do care if you lie, harm others and are judgemental
Religion caused me a lot of harm
But
I knew no different. I spent many years disliking myself for things I did
For years I was confused and thought I was damned for eternity
It really messes with you
It messed with me bad
The rejection is debilitating
When you're the non follower
I respect and understand others following
But I can't do it
I see so many unhappy people that stay in marriages they shouldn't and live an unfulfilled life so they can be eternally happy
Not for me



Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

blessed said:

Lastly to call the Bible and it's message (or the sharing of it) as terrorism is an very interesting take on where you stand concerning the Bible.  First of all, no one is holding a gun to your head saying believe or you're dead.





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_trauma_syndrome

Quote:

RTS begins in toxic religious environments centered around two basic narratives: "You are not okay" and "You are not safe."[6] These ideas are often enforced by theology such as the doctrines of original sin and hell.[6]

The development of RTS can be compared to the development of Complex PTSD, defined as a psychological disorder that can develop in response to prolonged, repeated experience of interpersonal trauma in a context in which the individual has little or no chance of escape. Symptoms of RTS are a natural response to the perceived existence of a violent, all-powerful God who finds humans inherently defective, along with regular exposure to religious leaders who use the threat of eternal death, unredeemable life, demon possession and many other frightening ideas to control religious devotion and the submission of group members.[1]

Members of the LGBTQIA+ community are at particular risk of RTS and C-PTSD as they attempt, over an extended period of time, to alter their sexual orientation and gender identity to fit the expectations of authoritarian religious communities. The process of attempting to alter one's orientation can create emotionally abusive thought patterns that are prone to exacerbate the C-PTSD-like symptoms of RTS. Chronically living in fear of eternal damnation and lifelong separation from loved ones and religious communities if they fail to comply with sexual identity restrictions can induce long-term symptoms of RTS.[7][8]

Leaving
Leaving a controlling religious community, while often experienced as liberating and exciting, can be experienced as a major traumatic event. Religious communities often serve as the foundation for individuals' lives, providing social support, a coherent worldview, a sense of meaning and purpose, and social and emotional satisfaction. Leaving behind all those resources goes beyond a significant loss; it calls on the individual to completely reconstruct their reality, often while newly isolated from the help and support of family and friends who stay in the religion.[3][9][10]

In addition, when violent or threatening theology, such as a belief in hell, divine punishment, demons, and an evil "outside world," have been incorporated into the basic structure of an individual's worldview, the threats of engaging the outside world instead of remaining in the safe bubble of the controlling religious community can induce further anxiety.[1][7][9]

As individuals identify the harm they are experiencing in authoritarian religious settings, their concerns may be minimized by the religious group itself, but they can also be compounded by society's investment in positive views of religion.[3] Institutional betrayal, first at the hands of beloved religious communities, second at the hands of a world that upholds the utility of religion rather than the experiences of religious abuse survivors, can make symptoms of RTS worse.[3] People leaving religion can experience extreme hostility from their former co-religionists.[11]







Hello again.

Whether we like it or not, It's a fact of life that all parents can (and do) have a large an impact on their children lives.  This happens regardless of whether the parents are religious or not .  Every child is greatly impacted (as an adult) by how they were raised.  So my first point is this, both religious & non religious parents have for generations after generations poorly raise their children, so It is therefor incorrect to point the finger solely at parents who believe in the God of the Bible.  But as the subject matter is the life long scars and damage caused by religious parents as raised in this thread by both loladoreen & Freedom, I will now try to address this, but please do not forget that many, many, many non religious parents have also caused life long damage and scars to children (using a form of fear to keep their kids in-line or downtrodden).  My intention is to approach this problem from the point of view of what the Bible actually says.

But first, I'd like to start with my own parents who forced us (my brothers & sisters) to go to church from a young age.  Now while I feel that overall my parents did a poor job of raising us, I have to say that other then the forced going to church (which I'm now glad they did), the biggest issues that I actually have against my parents have little to nothing to do with their belief in God or how they used the Bible to raise us up.  Now my father did smack us on occasions, but this wasn't like every day or week, and when he did it was only after we did something wrong (9 times out of 10).  Despite this fact, I can honestly say I hold no grudge against him concerning his form of discipline.  I would like to add that my parents never ever used the fear of hell, to correct me or make me feel afraid of God, never.

Now for my second point, there is nowhere in the Bible that parents are instructed to treat their children in a, bad , abusive , demeaning , fear based ("you're going to hell if you don't eat your vegetables") , with verbal or physical attacks, or by treating them like scum.  Any parent that does raise their children in such manner is definitely sure to cause mental scars and life long struggles for a child, and to do so is wrong, but my point is this, there are no parents who could justifiably justify raising up a child like this and be able to quote from the Bible as the guide lines for such an poor upbringing.  It's 100% not biblical.


So if the Bible isn't instructing parents to raise their children in such a harmful way, what then could be the possible reasons for this sad reality to occur?

A few possible reason.

First I say that no parent does a perfect job, and when you add the dynamic of different children with different types of personality,  I think it's safe to say that no matter how hard any parents try to raise their kids correctly, there is always going to be some form of hurt or emotional scar that will affect the child growing up.  Now another reason is that when children are raised by religious parents, they will typically be raised by a certain type of parent (please see below).  Now the type of religious parent a child has will usually determine the likelihood of RTS (religious trauma syndrome).  But because of the complexities of family life this is not always the case.

Religious Parent Types

Parent Type A:  These parent themselves had bad parents and upbringing and this is unconsciously carried out through in how they raise their children (monkey see, monkey do).  Now these types of parents will typically handle or treat situations primarily from the poor lessons they learned by being raised by their own parents.  Now regardless of if these people do (or come to) believe in God, without being corrected, they will by default treat their children like they were treated.  This was the fact for both of my parents, and I recognize that their poor upbringing directly negatively affected mine, but I want to add that what the Bible has to say had nothing to do with my poor upbringing and that it was a result of my parents having worse parents themselves.

Parent Type B:  These parents while not having been raised poorly have (for whatever reason) decided to have religion in their life (maybe it's the family's religion).  Now for these parents their religion is more about a socializing then actually truly believing in God and taking up their daily cross to follow him.  These people will typically be in churches that do not hold to the true teaching of the Bible, but instead offer a replacement religion that still give the follower a belief in God and  a community to be part of.  The problem with religion/churches like these are that they don't require said believer/parishioner to actually believe and obey the Bible.  It's more about keeping a seat warm once a week (or a year) and following a couple of simple rules and that with the occasional confession and prayer (especially just before passing away), is all they need to do to have their salvation assured (nothing could be further from the truth).  The parents who most likely fits this type will be Catholics or similar churches like the Church of England.

Parent Type C:  These are the parents that for whatever reason follow extreme teachings and will typically be parts of what some would consider cults or fanatical fundamental churches.  Now there can be many reasons why people join cults but for those that join religious cults I am 100% confident that none of them read the Bible and just from that was, lead to join such extreme cults or churches.  My argument is that there has to be another factor that makes them want to join extreme religious places.  Now here's were things get ugly, when these parents have children they inevitably will raise their children in the extreme teachings.  This is the one of the worst possible thing for a child to experience and grow up in, as it will most likely affect their life (usually for the worst).


My Conclusion.

Both (B & C) types of parents are not true Christians according to the Bible own standards and so, while they may be able to quote some Bible verses here and there, when it comes to raising a child, they (the parents) by rejecting the truth of the Bible and subsequently taking verses out of context, will very likely raise a child in a poor harmful manner and therefor it's not surprising that people experience upbringings like loladoreen did.  Sorry to tell you this loladoreen, but your parents aren't true Biblical Christians.  Is it any wonder why such parents incorrectly quote the Bible and use fear (instead of love) and put downs (instead of uplifting encouragement) when it comes to raising their children.  It is these types of parents that do the majority of all of the damage and abuse that children are subjected to growing up when it comes to religious parents.

Freedoms post about RTS (religious trauma syndrome) is therefor I believe a direct result of religious parents B & C, and as these parents ain't true Christians, to use it against the God of the Bible as if he and his book is the cause of the problem is sorry, bullcrap.  Now I'm not saying that the trauma that children face is bullcrap, but the attempt to blame God and his book when the actual cause is because of fake ass numbnuts, pretending to be Christians but like the Bible refers to such people, they are cups that are clean on the outside but dirty on the inside.

Now I wanted to share from the Bible's perspective on how God deals with children (now adults) that (for whatever the reason) have a poor or wrong, or even a fearful understanding of the God of the Bible, and how he deals with that fact, including that they now want nothing to do with him.  Can God save/reach someone so damaged by fake religious parents and bring them (the hurt and damage child/adult) back to a right and true understating of him and the Bible?, according to God's words, yes he can (Romans 8:35-39).

I'll end with a question.

If you were to write a teaching/instruction book (on anything) and some of the readers of your book didn't correctly follow your instructions which led to them (and those around them) experiencing problems of various sorts, would it be your fault or that of the one who did not correctly follow your instructions/teaching?  In addition, would you gladly accept criticism or complaints by those who did not correct follow your teaching/instructions, or would you reject their complaints as you know it's not your teaching that caused the problem, but that the fault lies with those who didn't follow the instructions correctly?

............

TLDR

Please stop blaming the God of the Bible for the things dumb, stupid, 2-faced c@nts, lying, sick, depraved, evil sacks of poops (aka people/humans) do!!!!!!


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