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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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arguing * 1
    #28548801 - 11/19/23 07:10 AM (2 months, 8 days ago)

I was thinking.  Arguing and debate are a type of communion.  It's like an intimate dance.  I suspect I experience a stronger emotional connection with people I feel opposition towards than those "on the same page" as me.  It's tempting to believe people who hold views and opinions that are in opposition to mine are an enemy.  We've all heard how an enemy can help us prop up our self-image.  Arguing feels like an intoxicating dose of self-righteousness. 

Does anyone disagree with me?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: arguing [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 2
    #28548813 - 11/19/23 07:15 AM (2 months, 8 days ago)

I agree to the extent that in arguing we find the soft parts of our opponent's mental body and provide just enough of a poke or squeeze to alarm them and engage more of the same offensive intimacy.

it is a bit orgiastical on some bizarre level.



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Edited by redgreenvines (11/19/23 07:21 AM)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: arguing [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #28548904 - 11/19/23 08:52 AM (2 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
I was thinking.  Arguing and debate are a type of communion.  It's like an intimate dance.  I suspect I experience a stronger emotional connection with people I feel opposition towards than those "on the same page" as me.  It's tempting to believe people who hold views and opinions that are in opposition to mine are an enemy.  We've all heard how an enemy can help us prop up our self-image.  Arguing feels like an intoxicating dose of self-righteousness. 

Does anyone disagree with me?




Intoxicating yes, but a stronger emotional connection is a stretch. Perhaps it's just a matter of time spent in communion?

Do you agree? - yes - nuff said.

Do you agree? - no, and let me tell you why...

I have a strong preference for harmony in my personal relationships. It's never perfect but the closer the better. That being said, arguing on a personal level is an attractor. I think of it as an attempt to find resolution. There's an end point either way. Failure to see the end point or a propensity to create negative drama for the sake of drama is an issue.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: arguing [Re: Rahz]
    #28549504 - 11/19/23 06:27 PM (2 months, 7 days ago)

I wonder why some couples argue a lot. Often about petty stuff.  What does it do for them?  Maybe the constant squabbling helps them avoid boredom or is a subconscious strategy to avoid talking about important issues.  Filling the air with noise.  How many times do I have to ask you to take out the trash?! 


Let the angry word be answered only with a kiss.

Thomas Hill


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: arguing [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #28549676 - 11/19/23 10:14 PM (2 months, 7 days ago)

reflex
mental media replay of past learned behavior (maybe a movie, or maybe parents or neighbours)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: arguing [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28549680 - 11/19/23 10:22 PM (2 months, 7 days ago)

That's a good way of putting it. People need stimulation. Bad drama is better than no drama.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: arguing [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #28549724 - 11/19/23 11:32 PM (2 months, 7 days ago)

Arguing seems more personalised and emotional, debating, at least when done while taking personal responsibility and having a flexible approach, can be great for developing more attuned personal insights or perspectives on the topic at hand.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: arguing [Re: sudly]
    #28549731 - 11/19/23 11:48 PM (2 months, 7 days ago)

squabbling/quarreling/bickering is different than debate

My original thought was about about debate arguments

Debates about hot topics - I derailed my own thread a bit


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Invisiblecubedryeguy
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Re: arguing [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #28549736 - 11/20/23 12:02 AM (2 months, 7 days ago)

I would think because of self identification. People tend to self identify with the sides they choose. In a heated debate that leads to argument, which seems to carry the emotional quality of anger/frustration, it would seem the person is defending their personal identification with the side they are arguing for rather than discussing it rationally.

So agreed :cheers:


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: arguing [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #28549742 - 11/20/23 12:17 AM (2 months, 7 days ago)

Some people want to echo their own bias, some want to hear what reasons there are to take certain viewpoints :shrug:

Some people debate like it's a sports game, some like it's educational.

Do you pick a side and work back from your conclusion, or hear them out and try to rationalise the reason? Etc.

I suppose it boils down to whether you enter a debate willing to change your views or not.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: arguing [Re: sudly]
    #28549794 - 11/20/23 03:51 AM (2 months, 7 days ago)

the reassuring noises of the jungle


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: arguing [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28549982 - 11/20/23 09:10 AM (2 months, 7 days ago)

I think working with the concept of resolution has been helpful to me.

Resolution is desirable but should not be the goal of any particular argument/debate. Why? Because people don't change their minds that quickly, and perhaps they shouldn't depending on the topic and level of subjectivity.

In the context of a personal issue the desire for resolution can overshadow the good. Being able to set aside that desire is the difference between "arguing" and discussing/disagreement.

The information gets laid out on the table. Both parties can see where there is agreement and disagreement. Requests for clarity/understanding should be granted. At this point the good discussion is essentially over. If there is no resolution, both parties can agree to disagree. Some issues may be foundational but often they are not. A foundational issue is on in which the other party must be in agreement in order to proceed with association. If an issue isn't foundational, best to be accepting of differences, give space, maybe revisit upon invitation or necessity.

And the older a person is, simply meaning to say 'with experience' which doesn't correlate directly with age, one will start to more easily see when this type of cooperation is available and when it's not. To be told by someone (in so many words and on a consistent basis), I don't agree with you but I love you anyway, can be a life changer. And then there are those who withhold love in absence of resolution. This is the essence of bad drama and all the negativity that comes out of it. It's not just being right that's at stake, it's being loved!

More toward the OP, self-righteousness is one side of the coin. Self doubt the other. Both of these can be healthy reactions in debate even when there is discomfort. Exploring cognitive dissonance and personal bias is not easy. While self-righteousness feels good, it's good to consider that unexamined bias may be at play. This applies to the other party as well so perhaps best not to spend too much time "crushing the enemy". It doesn't tend to foster future cooperation, changing of minds or kindness and harmony, though nothing wrong with emphatic conclusions if they help mark the end point of a particular discussion.

These are my thoughts and not a rebuttal of prior comments.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: arguing [Re: Rahz]
    #28550005 - 11/20/23 09:27 AM (2 months, 7 days ago)

Good thoughts

Not that you needed it said


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OnlineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: arguing [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28550283 - 11/20/23 01:04 PM (2 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
I wonder why some couples argue a lot. Often about petty stuff.  What does it do for them?  Maybe the constant squabbling helps them avoid boredom or is a subconscious strategy to avoid talking about important issues.  Filling the air with noise.  How many times do I have to ask you to take out the trash?! 


Let the angry word be answered only with a kiss.

Thomas Hill



I have seen enough of those relationships to tell you that they are physically attracted to each other.

While finding each other incredibly obnoxious.

Those people usually have incredible sex.
But they are fighting constantly.
This inevitably leads to everyone around them being very uncomfortable.

It would probably be best for both of them to break up with each other.
But they really like the intense angry sex.
So I doubt they will…


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: arguing [Re: GenesisCorrupted] * 1
    #28551028 - 11/21/23 02:51 AM (2 months, 6 days ago)

Thesis, antithesis, synthesis..

Let it all sink in!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: arguing [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #28551032 - 11/21/23 03:14 AM (2 months, 6 days ago)

foamy


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: arguing [Re: Rahz]
    #28551776 - 11/21/23 04:03 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I think working with the concept of resolution has been helpful to me.
...




Are you familiar with conflict transformation? It's a viewpoint that stems from believing conflict doesn't simply start and stop. There is no such thing as conflict resolution as a result. Because conflicts don't suddenly stop, fully resolved, never to be seen again. Nor is it a school of thought revolving around conflict management, suggesting that conflicts must be handled in particular ways. Rather it posits that conflicts can be transformed, and are transformed, regularly. 

I personally think it's a very reasonable way to look at conflict.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: arguing [Re: Kickle]
    #28551899 - 11/21/23 06:10 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

I had not. Thanks for bringing it up. It seems to mirror some of the refinements I noted, not putting emphasis on resolution or short term fixes. And the little I read brings up a good point, not just looking for the good beyond the conflict but within it, looking at things from both sides and being able to express that so the other person/group doesn't feel alone in their own self-righteousness.

Maybe no particular ways but more/better communication is very often part of moving forward, lest it be a lesson in how bad communication works and makes things fall apart. A lack of understanding can only produce bad outcomes. Assumptions are often misunderstandings and they often preclude the kind of communication that produces clarity.

When communication does happen it can be highly emotive. While I do have a strong preference for harmony I don't demand it. If I did I suppose I would be more alone in various ways.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: arguing [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #28552893 - 11/22/23 02:09 PM (2 months, 4 days ago)

Sincerity and honesty are essential.  Point, counter point need not devolve into personal attacks. 

:biden:


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: arguing [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #28552913 - 11/22/23 02:33 PM (2 months, 4 days ago)

Seems hypothetical but I agree with the gist... though what some people consider sincerity and honesty can at times be cold and harsh. I can do my best to communicate in a way that's conducive to cooperation, something I've gotten better at but not perfection. I can extricate myself from the situation when my best efforts fail.

Beyond a certain point I don't mind feeling like a failure. I don't need to know how much was me and how much was them, just that it wasn't all me, wasn't all them. I assume my tact isn't perfect and contributes to strife at times and I'm okay with that.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: arguing [Re: Rahz] * 2
    #28552930 - 11/22/23 02:47 PM (2 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

though what some people consider sincerity and honesty can at times be cold and harsh




Its true.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: arguing [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #28552961 - 11/22/23 03:22 PM (2 months, 4 days ago)

I think the delivery and the truth are different things... sometimes people just need to get it out in a certain way, and that's cool.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: arguing [Re: Rahz]
    #28553003 - 11/22/23 04:10 PM (2 months, 4 days ago)

They both could make an important difference.  Depends on how receptive people are, or choose to be.  I'm pleased that you're THAT understanding!  I've always sensed an incredibly supportive vide from the shroomery.  <Peace>


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: arguing [Re: Rahz]
    #28553063 - 11/22/23 05:18 PM (2 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:

... though what some people consider sincerity and honesty can at times be cold and harsh.




If we attempt to express how we feel instead of blaming others, that can help cultivate a productive conversation.  As you say, try to communicate in a way that's conducive to cooperation.  If we are sincere and honest about how we feel, it's generally not interpreted as harsh or cold.

I feel I'm being mushy.


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