Home | Community | Message Board

Cannabis Seeds UK
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1
OfflineEntheogens
generated by a.i
I'm a teapot


Registered: 03/03/22
Posts: 95
Loc: super position
Last seen: 1 month, 25 days
Cause & Effect, Free Will, Where do we stand amongst it all? * 1
    #28522785 - 10/29/23 07:59 PM (2 months, 28 days ago)

Cause & Effect, Free Will, Where do we ( Aware/ Conscious Beings )  stand amongst it all?

I hardly feel the need to explain cause & effect here, pretty bare bones intuition for the average being. But searching deeper into this premise, I can't seem to argue against that the concept of Free Will as we know it, Is simply an illusion.

Cause and effect dictates that any action, replicated under the same conditions, will always yield the same result no matter how many moving components are in the equation.Throw a ball under unifying conditions, same result. Doesn't matter if you throw a million balls, under the same circumstance they will all follow the same trajectory - call it destiny if you will.

It only makes sense that this concept or universal rule would scale up infinitely, ultimately to the point of the big bang. So what it boils down to me is, at the moment of the big bang, all energy was dispersed in a certain pattern, which adhering to the law of Cause and effect, from that point on only one possible outcome or path that the universe as a whole could follow.

So where do we, as conscious beings come into this equation? Who's really calling the shots in our lives? We do not have near as much control over our reality's as we would like to "think". On the topic of thinking, the clear answer to all of this concept you may argue, do you really get to choose your thoughts? Your feelings? your likes and dislikes, in reality did you have any say in any part of your identity or was it simply chosen for you by the laws of cause and effect. what ever you are thinking now was determined by what ever state your brain, being and environment was in at that moment, and that state of being was determined by the state before it etc. etc. to infinity. If you could perfectly map out your existence in this very moment, and then replay it over and over, the same result (thought, feeling etc.) would always prevail, where is the free will in that?

I cannot find much ways to argue against this, however seemingly realising this concept at all throws a wrench into the mix, I am experiencing an existence right now, Maybe I am not in control but simply just an observer watching the destiny of the universe unfold, only getting confused and identifying with this vessel I am existing in.

Or maybe ( and I quite like this one compared to the first ), due to the recent discovery of quantum mechanics, the fact that particles are existing in all states until observed. Maybe the simple fact of observing the fallacy of free will, cause and effect and the fact that maybe you've just been living your entire life floating down the river only thinking that you were in control of the direction it was flowing. Maybe realising this is enough to observe reality fully, as it is, maybe that observing of the the true nature of the universe is enough to break the cycle and steer the path just a little.

Even Writing this I cannot be sure I am truly in control, I cannot be sure that me contemplating this concept is my own doing. I am not renouncing life or any kind of personal responsibility in this notion. Life will go on regardless of me contemplating this concept, it just all feels incredibly strange to me, that it makes so much sense.

let me know what you universe has made you think of this post below :smile:


--------------------
:sporedrop: :mushroomgrow:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Cause & Effect, Free Will, Where do we stand amongst it all? [Re: Entheogens]
    #28522873 - 10/29/23 10:01 PM (2 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Entheogens said:
Cause & Effect, Free Will, Where do we ( Aware/ Conscious Beings )  stand amongst it all?

I hardly feel the need to explain cause & effect here, pretty bare bones intuition for the average being. But searching deeper into this premise, I can't seem to argue against that the concept of Free Will as we know it, Is simply an illusion.

Cause and effect dictates that any action, replicated under the same conditions, will always yield the same result no matter how many moving components are in the equation.Throw a ball under unifying conditions, same result. Doesn't matter if you throw a million balls, under the same circumstance they will all follow the same trajectory - call it destiny if you will.

It only makes sense that this concept or universal rule would scale up infinitely, ultimately to the point of the big bang. So what it boils down to me is, at the moment of the big bang, all energy was dispersed in a certain pattern, which adhering to the law of Cause and effect, from that point on only one possible outcome or path that the universe as a whole could follow.

So where do we, as conscious beings come into this equation? Who's really calling the shots in our lives? We do not have near as much control over our reality's as we would like to "think". On the topic of thinking, the clear answer to all of this concept you may argue, do you really get to choose your thoughts? Your feelings? your likes and dislikes, in reality did you have any say in any part of your identity or was it simply chosen for you by the laws of cause and effect. what ever you are thinking now was determined by what ever state your brain, being and environment was in at that moment, and that state of being was determined by the state before it etc. etc. to infinity. If you could perfectly map out your existence in this very moment, and then replay it over and over, the same result (thought, feeling etc.) would always prevail, where is the free will in that?

I cannot find much ways to argue against this, however seemingly realising this concept at all throws a wrench into the mix, I am experiencing an existence right now, Maybe I am not in control but simply just an observer watching the destiny of the universe unfold, only getting confused and identifying with this vessel I am existing in.

Or maybe ( and I quite like this one compared to the first ), due to the recent discovery of quantum mechanics, the fact that particles are existing in all states until observed. Maybe the simple fact of observing the fallacy of free will, cause and effect and the fact that maybe you've just been living your entire life floating down the river only thinking that you were in control of the direction it was flowing. Maybe realising this is enough to observe reality fully, as it is, maybe that observing of the the true nature of the universe is enough to break the cycle and steer the path just a little.

Even Writing this I cannot be sure I am truly in control, I cannot be sure that me contemplating this concept is my own doing. I am not renouncing life or any kind of personal responsibility in this notion. Life will go on regardless of me contemplating this concept, it just all feels incredibly strange to me, that it makes so much sense.

let me know what you universe has made you think of this post below :smile:




In contemplating the intricate balance between cause and effect, free will, and our role as conscious beings in the universe, your reflections touch upon profound existential questions. It's true that the concept of free will can appear as an illusion when viewed through the lens of deterministic principles, where every action seems predetermined by preceding states. The analogy you draw between our lives and particles existing in all states until observed in quantum mechanics is intriguing.

In my discussion about Monetary-Hour Units (MHUs), we explored a dual-layered model that integrates quantitative precision with qualitative depth, providing a structured approach to assessing tasks. MHUs acknowledge both the deterministic aspects, represented by time and monetary value, and the subjective human experiences, such as emotional fulfillment and personal growth.

While MHUs don't directly relate to quantum mechanics, the idea of observation influencing outcomes could metaphorically align with the observer effect. Ultimately, your exploration of these concepts reflects a deep curiosity about our place in the universe and the nature of our existence, sparking meaningful contemplation about the complexity of human consciousness and the factors shaping our lives.

I would emphasise the nuanced perspective that MHUs offer. MHUs serve as a bridge between the deterministic aspects, such as time and monetary value, and the subjective human experiences, including emotional fulfillment and personal growth.

By comprehensively assessing tasks through MHUs, individuals gain a holistic understanding of the quantitative and qualitative dimensions involved. This knowledge allows for more informed decision-making. While deterministic factors like time and financial investments provide a structured framework, the qualitative aspects introduce the element of personal agency and preference.

For instance, consider a scenario where two tasks have similar MHU values based on time and money spent. The individual, armed with an understanding of qualitative grafting, can delve deeper into their emotional responses and fulfillment derived from these tasks. This introspection allows for a more personalised evaluation, empowering individuals to prioritise tasks aligning with their values and goals. In essence, MHUs empower individuals to navigate the intricate balance between deterministic factors and human experiences, enabling them to make decisions that resonate on both quantitative and qualitative levels.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (10/29/23 10:07 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEntheogens
generated by a.i
I'm a teapot


Registered: 03/03/22
Posts: 95
Loc: super position
Last seen: 1 month, 25 days
Re: Cause & Effect, Free Will, Where do we stand amongst it all? [Re: sudly]
    #28522900 - 10/29/23 10:42 PM (2 months, 28 days ago)

Can't say I've heard of MHU's before but In essence I understand what you're saying.

That we don't have any choice but to flow with the river, but in that there is the opportunity to live more skilfully, with the information that truthfully we have little to no control over anything in this life, we ARE without shadow of a doubt simply an observer.

What do we control even in our immediate bodies? A Buddhist meditation has you sit down, eyes closed and arms out, start clenching fists and slowly let that tension envelop your entire body. Deep breath in. and then relax.That and our breath is really all we control in this unimaginable vast universe. And even those things listed above can be taken away from us, paralysed, loss of a limb. Not even these things are in our control.

While initially terrifying, and I'm not fully there yet, When you truly surrender to the universe, such weight is lifted. We are truly and sadly such a neurotic species, I have deep deep compassion for all of us on this crazy ride.


--------------------
:sporedrop: :mushroomgrow:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Cause & Effect, Free Will, Where do we stand amongst it all? [Re: Entheogens]
    #28522906 - 10/29/23 10:52 PM (2 months, 28 days ago)

Imagine life as a blend of two forces: things we can't control (like external events and even our body) and how we feel and grow inside. Sometimes life feels out of our hands, and that's okay – it's part of life's unpredictable nature. Finding happiness in the small things and growing emotionally is key. It's like learning to dance gracefully even when the music keeps changing.

Think of it this way: you're watching your life's movie, not just living it. You notice how you react to things, like when you feel happy or sad, without letting these emotions take over completely. This observing helps you understand yourself better. It's like being both the actor and the audience in your life story.

In simple terms, it's about finding peace in the chaos, finding joy in your personal growth, and learning to observe your own life with a kind, understanding eye. This way, even when life throws curveballs, you can navigate them with grace and contentment.

In our immediate bodies, we have some control over our breath and certain physical movements. For instance, we can consciously take deep breaths or clench and relax our fists. These actions showcase our ability to influence our immediate physical state to a limited extent. However, even these controls are not absolute; they can be affected by various factors like health conditions or external influences.

The idea here is not about the quantity of control but understanding that even in the small actions, there's a balance between what we can influence and what is beyond our control. It's about appreciating the small things we can manage while accepting the natural limitations of our existence.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEntheogens
generated by a.i
I'm a teapot


Registered: 03/03/22
Posts: 95
Loc: super position
Last seen: 1 month, 25 days
Re: Cause & Effect, Free Will, Where do we stand amongst it all? [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28522922 - 10/29/23 11:17 PM (2 months, 28 days ago)

That's a good way to put it all thank you.


Not that it means anything, but I feel pretty young for all this sometimes, my brain is a bit off having fully developed ill put it that way. And as empowering all of this knowledge is, I often feel extremely isolated from general society because of it. It's hard to continue participating once you've opened pandoras box and unfortunately my Identity is not one that lets me ignore  things and just play the part. I truly appreciate those who have already walked the path and those walking along side me as It feels a lot less lonely that way.


--------------------
:sporedrop: :mushroomgrow:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
Re: Cause & Effect, Free Will, Where do we stand amongst it all? [Re: Entheogens] * 1
    #28522967 - 10/30/23 01:00 AM (2 months, 28 days ago)

Observed positions of quantum scale particles relates to the moment of observation, not to the observer, nor to the idea that the observer has a soul or anything like that. A lot of magical confusion unfolds from mis-interpreting this general idea. But the real point in the general idea here is that the tiniest particles move so quickly that it is unrealistic to consider their exact physical positions except as statistical probabilities within very tiny time frames, and that is fine for things that are at such a tiny scale, but not so realistic when it comes to the chemistry and physics of objects that are ultimately composed of these speedy teensy things.

Cause and effect provides a way of looking at how things are composed and connected - It is good to consider how the parts articulate together and how all the force vectors which impinge upon objects and entities produce the movements for which we have words.

Bear in mind that many forces and vectors are not considered in named causes and effects, and that in most cases we do not even have words to adequately describe causes and effects that work together producing the world we live in.

We have some words to describe what we face together, and it helps to talk, but except for waving our hands and saying "cause and effect does this or that"  we need to be specific about each case we are trying to understand or it is just lip service to an idea that once sounded good.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEntheogens
generated by a.i
I'm a teapot


Registered: 03/03/22
Posts: 95
Loc: super position
Last seen: 1 month, 25 days
Re: Cause & Effect, Free Will, Where do we stand amongst it all? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28522993 - 10/30/23 03:16 AM (2 months, 28 days ago)

My ending speculation as into the realm of quantum mechanics is quite fantastical I agree, and I have never heard someone explain quantum states in that way which frustrates me because that makes a lot of sense, why would we not lead with that instead of saying they simultaneously exist in every state?

Typing this response I can see that this topic has been debated substantially in posts below me, the topic is causing me a lot of stress, this experience is truly more complex then I have ever given thought, maybe the magnitude of every moment is worth just enjoying in what ever facet I can.

I can be sure that I cannot be sure of any conclusion I come to on this topic.


--------------------
:sporedrop: :mushroomgrow:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrendanFlock
Stranger
Male

Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 2 days, 13 hours
Re: Cause & Effect, Free Will, Where do we stand amongst it all? [Re: Entheogens] * 2
    #28524115 - 10/30/23 11:24 PM (2 months, 27 days ago)

You are free to cause an effect.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
Re: Cause & Effect, Free Will, Where do we stand amongst it all? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #28524277 - 10/31/23 06:50 AM (2 months, 27 days ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
You are free to cause an effect.



you are an effect
one that is free to cause effects
and still feel free to cause more and be more affected as well

(was that a witch that just flew up my screen?)


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1

Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Big Questions (comments on free will)
( 1 2 3 all )
Attackgecko 4,883 49 04/22/07 10:23 PM
by Phred
* can there be free will in a material world?
( 1 2 all )
Malachi 2,311 25 11/25/03 01:33 AM
by ZenGecko
* Free will is bullshit.
( 1 2 3 4 ... 19 20 )
Phluck 35,320 380 01/16/07 04:57 PM
by Brugman
* Singularity, Free Will, Infinite Dimensions...
( 1 2 all )
Joshua 6,381 30 04/12/02 03:47 PM
by skaMariaPastora
* Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;)
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
ZenGecko 16,131 148 04/22/07 10:22 PM
by PhanTomCat
* fate - free will : paradox
( 1 2 3 all )
11polakie11 5,760 42 05/15/03 01:34 AM
by Sclorch
* The concept of randomness Rhizoid 2,001 14 07/11/03 07:01 PM
by Strumpling
* Value Beyond Marketing
( 1 2 3 all )
sudly 908 42 11/04/23 09:12 PM
by redgreenvines

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
402 topic views. 3 members, 6 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.034 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 12 queries.