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connectedcosmos
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Impermanence 3
#28521403 - 10/28/23 04:57 PM (2 months, 29 days ago) |
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 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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Kickle
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Impermanence is a gateway to acceptance I think. I went through a loss recently and something that emerged for me was the notion that everyone, at some point, will experience great loss.
And such a thought brought with it an understanding of the expansiveness of impermanence. That it isn't something personal, but much, much larger. And honestly that brought a lot of relief. To cease bringing loss in very close and intimate and instead to let it be very broad, as it truly is.
There's a story of a woman who loses her child and so she goes to the Buddha completely distraught. 'Oh Buddha, how am I supposed to go on!?' The Buddha listens patiently and then when she has finished he says, 'Go knock on the doors of houses and find someone who will give you a bag of flour. Bring it back to me and I will tell you.'
She runs off and begins knocking on doors until she gets a bag of flour. She brings it back to the Buddha, excited to hear what he has to say. He takes the flour and says, 'oh, I forgot one thing. You must only accept the flour from a house which has not been touched by death. I cannot accept this flour.'
She runs off to complete the task again but cannot find a house willing to give her flour that has not been touched by death.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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syncro
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I was surprised as a Vedantic monk he didn't bring it back to Atman or Brahman or something, though it was implied in the poem somewhat, the urge to be plucked into the ineffable, yet no indication of its substance - rather sneakily Buddhist of him. edit - my bad though, the writer was implying for God to pluck him.
On the other hand more subtle than I gathered at first, he also spoke of the beauty of impermanence, a 'permanent' essence flowing.
In commentary of the Yoga Sutras, I saw that two strata are considered eternal- purusha and prakriti, that is, soul(consciousness) and nature.
I don't buy impermanence really. Ridding of attachment, or treasuring the beauty of the ephemeral, ok. Yet grosser levels are more associated with time or impermanence, less so upward.
Edited by syncro (10/29/23 12:48 AM)
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syncro
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro]
#28521868 - 10/29/23 12:41 AM (2 months, 29 days ago) |
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Considering a sine wave, the oscillations between 1 and -1 are permanent. The value is not always at one or the other, but always returns and rises or falls again. Increasing the frequency, it approaches the appearance of a solid band.
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro]
#28521907 - 10/29/23 01:43 AM (2 months, 29 days ago) |
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The idea of impermanence is that a instant happens then disappears into the void..
We only have this ever changing instant.. everything else is impermanence.
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connectedcosmos
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@Kickle, interesting you bring that up, I first discovered that story while asking chatgpt to share with me Buddhist parables
And the first one it showed me was the story of the mustard seed , it is a very good story really reminds me that we are all in this together and we ultimately experience much of the same feelings through life
@Syncro I loved the poem at the end it would be fun to memorize I think 
@Brenden so you think impermanence is essentially like space-time?
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 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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syncro
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In the video the first line is used as a repeating chorus... 
Rabindranath Tagore, Gitanjali 6
Quote:
Pluck this little flower and take it, delay not! I fear lest it droop and drop into the dust.
It may not find a place in thy garland, but honour it with a touch of pain from thy hand and pluck it. I fear lest the day end before I am aware, and the time of offering go by.
Though its colour be not deep and its smell be faint, use this flower in thy service and pluck it while there is time.
1
Quote:
THOU hast made me endless, such is thy pleasure. This frail vessel thou emptiest again and again, and fillest it ever with fresh life.
This little flute of a reed thou hast carried over hills and dales, and hast breathed through it melodies eternally new.
At the immortal touch of thy hands my little heart loses its limits in joy and gives birth to utterance ineffable.
Thy infinite gifts come to me only on these very small hands of mine. Ages pass, and still thou pourest, and still there is room to fill.
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connectedcosmos
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro]
#28525117 - 11/01/23 03:58 AM (2 months, 26 days ago) |
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Sit for too long I want to stand , stand for too long I want to sit
I breathe in , I breathe out
If I'm cold - I want warmth
Too warm? Give me cold!
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 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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BrendanFlock
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Quote:
connectedcosmos said: Sit for too long I want to stand , stand for too long I want to sit
I breathe in , I breathe out
If I'm cold - I want warmth
Too warm? Give me cold!
Thermodynamics?
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syncro
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Yet, Brahman, the one without a second, where is this involving impermanence? Obscurations are impermanent give or take, yet the core defies impermanence. ?
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connectedcosmos
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro] 2
#28525235 - 11/01/23 08:02 AM (2 months, 26 days ago) |
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You know I wonder to myself , how does anyone even know of change , without something changeless to know what change even is ? That would be the Self or Brahman , what one really is , what this whole existence is
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 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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GenesisCorrupted
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There is an anime that I will be making a review of on a separate thread.
But I found it to be a beautiful representation of impermanence.
It was called casshern sins
It discusses how the guarantee of annihilation. Makes something that much more beautiful. Because it only exists for a little while. And will never exist again.
 Definitely worth a watch.
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AnattaAtman
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Contemplating impermanence makes you attachment free. Whatever there is, you will lose it eventually. The universe can be a real bitch sometimes.
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GenesisCorrupted
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For everything lost something takes its place. As long as we can take solace in that. The loss isn’t a bad thing. It’s just a changing of form.
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AnattaAtman
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Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: For everything lost something takes its place.
It will be replaced with something, but not necessarily with a better thing. For example, you can spend some time in heaven, but you will be reborn in a lower realm eventually. That is the turning of the wheel of Samsara.
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GenesisCorrupted
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I like to think of it as going back to school. I can always learn more. But yeah, it sure is nice going home for a while. Not having to spend so much time on the campus if you know what I mean.😉
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connectedcosmos
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As the ol adage "what goes up must come down"
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 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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AnattaAtman
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Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: I like to think of it as going back to school. I can always learn more.
That's a nice way of looking at it. Matter is for making spiritual progress, while heaven is for enjoying the fruits thereof. Even if it's only temporary.
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syncro
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It seems the traditional Eastern paths maintain this. In the Shiva sutras iirc, about liberating grace, there are basically two paths to liberation- one going directly to the absolute, and the other having no less certainty of that, also travels through the heavens as it were at one's pleasure.
In the afterlife library I was into for a while, essentially I think all under Spiritualism, in some of the narratives, for some individuals there was not a need to return to physical birth, though here apparently lessons can be learned more profoundly and quickly, and service realized.
I remember now it said in one source of yogis who had passed are in higher realms helping others to liberation from there, not implying need of the disciples for physical rebirth.
It is said that in heavens there would be little motivation to work on oneself but only to enjoy, but again in some sources the wise can continue from there, though the standard typically is that from heaven, the good karmas expire and earthly birth returns.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro]
#28526977 - 11/02/23 06:53 PM (2 months, 24 days ago) |
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I’ve always been a spirit that is hungry for knowledge. If I could go down and learn to do it myself, I would. Did🤷♂️🤣
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syncro
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro] 1
#28526990 - 11/02/23 07:07 PM (2 months, 24 days ago) |
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There was the quote of the goddess Saraswati in a translation of Vasistha's Yoga I discovered more recently - She said basically those who do dharana reasonably, which is concentration, upon passing can go wherever they like. This doesn't sound like need for physical reincarnation, though as well we may be convinced overall that it is better to do so, the implication being it is a choice.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro]
#28526992 - 11/02/23 07:08 PM (2 months, 24 days ago) |
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In that case, I’m sure it’s a overtime kind of thing. This being kind of like a violent safari where you can learn a lot of things. Not some thing that everyone would want to do. But something everyone should do once in a while.
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syncro
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If you are meaning dharana, it is basically introductory meditative practice. We were jumping for joy in the discovery, but, it seems too easy. What of the sanchita, mountain of karma, etc.? Though grace as well cannot be underestimated. 
Reading it again it sounds like you are meaning reincarnation. From here, nah I guess for me if not obligatory, but there are circumstances that may convince.
Edited by syncro (11/02/23 07:30 PM)
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro] 1
#28527018 - 11/02/23 07:29 PM (2 months, 24 days ago) |
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I do believe in karma. Because I think that if you do a really bad job when you come down here. Like you failed your test. Then you need to go to remedial courses afterwards. Like going down a ladder rung of the food chain.
If you keep doing great on your test though. Then you have to go back home. Then you get to decide if you want to go back to college. At least that’s the way I think about it.
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syncro
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A teacher once implied that, at times, even if one has not mastered meditation or is some great one of service etc, in love itself, due to love, they are liberated.
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AnattaAtman
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro] 1
#28527281 - 11/02/23 11:27 PM (2 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: In the afterlife library I was into for a while, essentially I think all under Spiritualism, in some of the narratives, for some individuals there was not a need to return to physical birth
It is called an Anagami in the Pali, a non-returner. He gains full enlightenment in the heavens, without the need to go back to physical existence. To become an Anagami, you have to fulfill five conditions:
1. Being free of the belief in a Self. 2. Not being attached to rituals. 3. Not having doubt. 4. Being free of sensual craving. 5. Being free of aversion.
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Kickle
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro]
#28527907 - 11/03/23 01:01 PM (2 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: There was the quote of the goddess Saraswati in a translation of Vasistha's Yoga I discovered more recently - She said basically those who do dharana reasonably, which is concentration, upon passing can go wherever they like. This doesn't sound like need for physical reincarnation, though as well we may be convinced overall that it is better to do so, the implication being it is a choice.
Given this view, why do so many choose insect?
~80-90% of all life on the planet is an insect
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: Impermanence [Re: Kickle]
#28527928 - 11/03/23 01:24 PM (2 months, 23 days ago) |
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There are enough spirits ready to learn a new experience, they sign up for insect after all the other classes got filled.
“What are you taking this cycle? I’m taking advanced mammals.”😘
“Advanced beetles I guess”☹️
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syncro
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The insects are nubs I guess, unconscious, one with nature but not aware of it.? Choice may come with awareness beyond nature.
I've been reading Corpus Hermeticum and more quotes from Hermes would apply to topics here if I can gather up and post some.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro]
#28527970 - 11/03/23 02:16 PM (2 months, 23 days ago) |
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I think from an objective(spirit) perspective. There would be many wonderful lessons to learn from a bug. It would be a good intro course. Teach you a lot about this world. Then maybe you go up to fish.
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connectedcosmos
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Does there have to be ... what do I want to say a hierarchy though?
The spider eats breakfast and the fly loses its life
I like to think that all animals "feel" like they are "human" ... or better yet , have a sense of being or awareness the exact same way as we do
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 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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GenesisCorrupted
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It’s not a heirarchy. It’s complexity. I wouldn’t start calculus without algebra for example.
Not that you could’nt.
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Kickle
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Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: There are enough spirits ready to learn a new experience, they sign up for insect after all the other classes got filled.
“What are you taking this cycle? I’m taking advanced mammals.”😘
“Advanced beetles I guess”☹️
Wouldn't it be the other way around? The insect class seems to be the one in demand.
On Earth, there are approximately 1.4 billion insects per person
1,400,000,000 : 1
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: Impermanence [Re: Kickle]
#28528037 - 11/03/23 03:25 PM (2 months, 23 days ago) |
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Thats why I suspect it of being an intro course with a low passing grade percent each year. 😂
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GenesisCorrupted
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Also their life spans are so short typically. It would probably be difficult to learn very much. So you would have to take a lot of bug credits to pass.
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Kickle
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It just doesn't track that humans get to choose whatever, but the vast majority don't. It reeks of hubris to me. Especially considering how much killing humans do compared to your typical insect. If this is what "higher" means, the next tiers must be really ruthless.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: Impermanence [Re: Kickle]
#28528048 - 11/03/23 03:34 PM (2 months, 23 days ago) |
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Who said we got to choose? There are better things than this by a long shot. IMO This is the equivalent of teenage spiritual development.
We aren’t ready for the next courses yet. But in our dreams I think we sometimes get a glimpse of one.
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Kickle
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Quote:
syncro said: There was the quote of the goddess Saraswati in a translation of Vasistha's Yoga I discovered more recently - She said basically those who do dharana reasonably, which is concentration, upon passing can go wherever they like. This doesn't sound like need for physical reincarnation, though as well we may be convinced overall that it is better to do so, the implication being it is a choice.
bolded for emphasis
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: Impermanence [Re: Kickle]
#28528054 - 11/03/23 03:42 PM (2 months, 23 days ago) |
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I am not sure, but If we do badly enough here. We probably come back until we get it right. Being able to choose does sound awesome. But I don’t know if we could skip several levels at once. Does that make sense?
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Kickle
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Well my take is that many views of humans are likely the result of hubris. A human, an incredibly destructive minority on the planet, gets to keep being destructive without consequence or even 'upgrade' just 'cause they are human? Talk about winning the lottery.
Powerball odds: 1 in 292.2 million Human odds: 1 in billions (on Earth)
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: Impermanence [Re: Kickle]
#28528076 - 11/03/23 03:57 PM (2 months, 23 days ago) |
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I feel like spiritually this human existence is the lottery now. If people are miserable. They’re not gonna maintain any spiritual growth. They’re gonna probably have worse spiritually than they were before. If you do really well financially. Spiritually diminish. Because you don’t care anymore. Your life is great right now. Who gives a crap what happens afterwards.
So I feel like again this “class” has a very low pass percentage…
The amount of people that actually feel they have undergone spiritual growth in this lifetime, doesn’t seem like a very high percentage of the total population. Do you agree?
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Kickle
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The amount of people that actually feel they have undergone spiritual growth in this lifetime, doesn’t seem like a very high percentage of the total population. Do you agree?
Not really. A majority of those I've talked to have changed their views on spirituality over time. I think learning and adapting is quite normal. But who knows, maybe my sample is skewed?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: Impermanence [Re: Kickle]
#28528113 - 11/03/23 04:28 PM (2 months, 23 days ago) |
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I live in the city. Maybe my pool is the skewed one. 🤣
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syncro
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Though may be relatively few, I think it's underestimating the best representatives that are human and their influence that can bring more average people to their sight.
We also over estimate the significance of human error that is minor, not particularly harming others in intent. Being good is not difficult nor takes great talent, intellect. Meditation and devotion are simple things, and the effect is to purify the heart and mind and to bring openness to those states such as the beginnings of samadhi or mahamudra, gnosis ... If one can establish peace here even partially, to that degree they will find themselves after the body if we are assuming there is life after the body.
Meditation, devotion, study of scripture makes these things more evident, meaning real time, not future time which is speculation in personal experience, but verifying experience in scripture and related now. This board is filled with such, visionary, unity.
What is mind? It's externally human in 1/3 of our daily states, 1/4 if considering turiya.
Edited by syncro (11/22/23 01:21 PM)
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro] 1
#28528243 - 11/03/23 06:01 PM (2 months, 23 days ago) |
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I don’t believe my judgment of human error is a factor spiritually. Like you said, it’s all about intention. I’ve seen a lot of darkness in my lifetime. I don’t feel like most people are very spiritual. By that, I mean the actual belief in the existence of life after death, the spirit, or spirits. People can still undergo spiritual growth. But I don’t know how many people actually feel a true connection to spirituality.
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solarshroomster
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GenesisCorrupted (great screen name, by the way), I relate a lot to what you wrote. I just question if others "saw" it. Because, even if I went crazy, I technically did "see" something, something behind the veil. Have others seen it to?
I don't know who else is spiritual and has these feelings, and who doesn't, because I didn't before trying this medicine. Really, makes me wonder, why do we keep "forgetting"?
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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GenesisCorrupted
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In my opinion. When we reincarnate. We get just a tiny, itty-bitty fraction. Of the knowledge we had in our last life. Just enough. That we felt like we could really benefit from taking it with us. This would be the equivalent of bringing your favorite book with you when you go back to college. Some story. Just a single one. That you could have as a dream perhaps. Just as reference to keep you on the right path.
But I feel like we need to be incredibly receptive to everything we can when we come back. That’s why we keep forgetting everything. Otherwise it could “paint the experience” To use a term from the psychedelic circles.
The best student. Is one ready to learn anything. It isn’t until later. That we can learn that some things aren’t worth knowing. In itself, this repeated experience is its own lesson.
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syncro
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"Why do we keep forgetting?
Hermes was talking about the mind being fire, while the body is earth and water. Fire will burn away the earth and water, therefore in the body there is not much of that mind per se.
When we have spiritual experiences, how much in our mind is the body as rendered through physical senses?
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syncro
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro]
#28528656 - 11/04/23 06:31 AM (2 months, 23 days ago) |
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The perceptions or insights I've thought can be mutually exclusive to the solid external world. The senses withdraw to their reflective source which is mind. We may still see form of the world, but it loses its conceptual or instinctual solidity as it were.
What is Plop!? Suchness no longer projected to something assumed to be apart from mind. Still an object though perhaps, still not all the way. What is suchness? It pulls back from assumed projected form in concept and can be as light between. It can go from physical objects projected in the senses to light around the body, say.
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solarshroomster
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro] 1
#28528767 - 11/04/23 09:08 AM (2 months, 22 days ago) |
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GenesisCorrupted said: In my opinion. When we reincarnate. We get just a tiny, itty-bitty fraction. Of the knowledge we had in our last life. Just enough. That we felt like we could really benefit from taking it with us. This would be the equivalent of bringing your favorite book with you when you go back to college. Some story. Just a single one. That you could have as a dream perhaps. Just as reference to keep you on the right path.
But I feel like we need to be incredibly receptive to everything we can when we come back. That’s why we keep forgetting everything. Otherwise it could “paint the experience” To use a term from the psychedelic circles.
The best student. Is one ready to learn anything. It isn’t until later. That we can learn that some things aren’t worth knowing. In itself, this repeated experience is its own lesson.
This is a really interesting take. I think I kind of agree. It does seem like we take back a little bit of that memory, which is what we get when we have "deja vu" feelings, a memory of a forgotten time when all was "remembered".
Quote:
syncro said: What is Plop!? Suchness no longer projected to something assumed to be apart from mind. Still an object though perhaps, still not all the way. What is suchness? It pulls back from assumed projected form in concept and can be as light between. It can go from physical objects projected in the senses to light around the body, say.
Yeah, I think of "Plop!" as something along the lines of "suchness" too, but more that it is an interaction between the two worlds.
Like "frog!" is the inner-essence of suchness in being an "I" (mind). Like "pond!" is the inner-essence of suchness in being the world (matter). And "plop!" is the interaction between the two, the oneness of Mind and Matter.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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syncro
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Interesting considering interaction between. In that sense it seems to remove a separation. Useful.
I thought of it as interaction or at a border between maya and suchness. Can a border be found? Then where are we forgetting to?
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro]
#28529801 - 11/05/23 01:15 AM (2 months, 22 days ago) |
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Its there until it isn't there anymore.
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connectedcosmos
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I was thinking of space earlier today And trying to figure out exactly what it is
Thought a lot about forms and how they occupy space , space being the formless
Like an atom , even has all of this empty space (formless) and then it has the particles (forms) that are in contrast with this empty space
Just like at our level the forms of objects reside in this formlessness Such as a car driving by on a road
Space took me on a ride through the realms of the mind
--------------------
 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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syncro
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What is the form of mind without concrete thought or concept? Is it space? Inner space reveals itself, but it goes beyond space. It is like nonexistence, or only existence. In that is the spontaneity.
What does an Advaitic nun wear? An unhabit.
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro] 1
#28533455 - 11/07/23 08:12 PM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: What is the form of mind without concrete thought or concept? Is it space? Inner space reveals itself, but it goes beyond space. It is like nonexistence, or only existence. In that is the spontaneity.
What does an Advaitic nun wear? An unhabit. 
The observer pure observation is without form or concept.. just pure awareness..
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spinvis
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I had a reply typed out, not sure where it went 
Impermanence also known as aniccā is just one of the three marks of existence according to Buddhism, next to dukkha (commonly translated as "suffering", "unsatisfactory," "unease"), and anattā (without a lasting essence).
Some Buddhist quotes on impermanence.
Gautama Buddha;
Quote:
All conditioned things have the nature of vanishing.
Omori Sogen Rotaishi's commentary of Case 80: Joshu's "A Newborn Baby," from the Hekigan Roku (The Blue Cliff Record), Hakujusha Company, Inc., Tokyo, 1976;
Quote:
Twelfth-century Zen master Setcho wrote, "A ball strikes the boundless swift-flowing waters."
Referring to that quote, Omori Sogen Rotaishi went on to write "Boundless means infinitely vast and magnificent. Although it is called the boundless swift flowing waters, it is not only a river. The heavens, the earth, the entire universe, and everything are on these swift-flowing waters. Human existence also is flowing on these swift flowing waters without stopping even for an instant . . . Everything is flowing, especially the transient nature of all phenomena. Everything changes and flows without stopping. This is the nature of the existence of things, the form and shape of reality. At the same time, it is the same state of being of one who attains the ‘Way’.”
Dōgen;
Quote:
Therefore, the very impermanency of grass and tree, thicket and forest is the Buddha nature. The very impermanency of men and things, body and mind, is the Buddha nature. Nature and lands, mountains and rivers, are impermanent because they are the Buddha nature. Supreme and complete enlightenment, because it is impermanent, is the Buddha nature.
Dōgen;
Quote:
Permanence is the mind that discriminates the wholesomeness and unwholesomeness of all things.
The Buddhist wheel of life, also known as the bhavacakra, further demonstrates impermanence in the form of Yamarāja, also known as Māra, the God/Demon of death.
A Buddhist wheel of life, including two explanatory pics for the wheel.



With regards to the latest comments in the thread about the mind, some excerpts from Huangbo Xiyun (d. 850) - The Zen Teaching of Huangbo;
Quote:
All the buddhas and sentient beings are only the one mind; there is no other dharma. Since time immemorial, this mind has never been produced or extinguished. It is neither green nor yellow; it has neither form nor characteristics (lakṣaṇa). It does not belong to the categories of either existence or nonexistence. It cannot be measured in terms of new or old, long or short, large or small. It transcends all limits, measures, names, traces, and comparisons. What is right in front of you — that is it. But if you start to think, you will be far off the mark. [The one mind] is like empty space. It has no boundaries and cannot be measured.
This mind is bright and clear like empty space; it has not even the slightest mark or appearance.
Arousing your mind and starting to think deviates from the essence of the dharma and creates an attachment to characteristics. Since time immemorial, no buddhas have clung to characteristics.
Since buddhas and sentient beings are the one mind, they are not different. Like empty space, that mind is free from admixture or deterioration. It is like the great orb of the sun that shines over all four quarters of the world.
When the sun rises, its light shines over the entire world, but empty space has never been illuminated. When the sun sets, darkness pervades the entire world, but empty space has never been darkened. The realms of light and dark alternate, but the nature of empty space is expansive and invariable. The minds of both buddhas and sentient beings are also like this.
The essence of suchness is internally like wood or stone, which does not move or sway; externally, it is like empty space, which has no boundaries or obstructions. It has no subject or object, no direction or locus. It has no characteristics or shapes, and nothing to gain or lose. Those who pursue it are wary of accessing this dharma, for they are afraid of falling into voidness where there is no place to roost; therefore, they retreat as if staring at a sheer precipice. All of them are seeking everywhere for intellectual understanding. This is why those seeking intellectual understanding are [as common as] fur, while those who have awakened to the Way are [as rare as] a horn.
These days, practitioners of the Way do not seek awakening within their own minds. Instead, they look outside their minds, clinging to characteristics and holding on to external objects, turning their backs on the Way.
This pure mind, the original fount — whether in sentient beings or all the buddhas, whether in the mountains or rivers of this world, whether endowed with characteristics or free of characteristics — in all cases, it pervades all realms in the ten directions. Utterly equanimous, it has no characteristics of self or other.
This pure mind, the original fount, is always itself perfectly bright, its radiance illuminating everywhere. Since people of this world are not awakened, they just recognize their seeing, hearing, sensing, and knowing as their minds. Since they are blinded by seeing, hearing, sensing, and knowing, they do not perceive their original essence, which is seminal and bright.
Impermanence with regards to for example Kashmir Shaivism, the phenomenal material world is portrayed as the active and dynamic nature of consciousness, which is described as the spontaneous vibration or pulsation (spanda) of universal consciousness, which is an expression of its freedom (svātāntrya) and power in the form of Śakti.
Kshemaraja - Pratyabhijñā-hṛdayam;
Quote:
Awareness, free and independent, is the cause of the performance of everything. She unfolds the universe through Her own will and on Her own canvas. It becomes diverse by its division into mutually adapting subjects and objects. The individual conscious being, as a condensation of universal Awareness, embodies the entire universe in a microcosmic form.
While the underlying is in the form of pure absolute Universal Consciousness at rest portrayed by Shiva.
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syncro
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Re: Impermanence [Re: spinvis]
#28552639 - 11/22/23 10:10 AM (2 months, 4 days ago) |
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I was reading on the term Svātantrya (sovereignty or free will) - further
Quote:
According to Kashmir Shaivism, spiritual realization is more than a state of illumination (defined as pure witness , non-dual consciousnes or atma-vyapti).[36] Full spiritual realization means to know bliss (ānanda) and to control the energies (śakti) and the mantras[37] (or, the so-called śiva-vyāpti). The root of spiritual efficiency is svātantrya, the operative, dynamic aspect of the absolute.
An adept who reaches spiritual illumination needs to learn how to stabilize his experience. The Kashmir Shaivism scriptures declare that stability is based on the assimilation of the energy of svātantrya.[38] Thus, while the incipient practitioner aims for the experience of the nondual consciousness, the advanced ones focus on the assimilation of all the energies into non-duality. Svātantrya being the root of all energies, it becomes automatically the final step of the spiritual practice.[38]
The will of such an advanced practitioner becomes more and more efficient as it identifies with the will of Śiva. Yet, his actions are necessarily without base in egoism (without the attributes of good or bad)[39] - and this is an attitude that defines the discipline of karma yoga.
Quote:
All the spiritual paths (upāyas): that of Śiva (śāmbhavopāya), that of Śakti (śāktopāya) and that of the man (āṇavopāya) are subsumed under the umbrella of svātantrya as it is the sole mediator of divine grace.[40] The adept who has attained svātantrya is beyond the need for formal meditation - that is - for him to meditate or to act in everyday life is identical - he does all his actions from a state of perfect unity with Śiva from now on. This is the culmination of the Kashmiri Shaivite spiritual practice.[41] Such an adept does not exert himself in maintaining this state of consciousness because it is his own nature. From his point of view, everything is made of just forms of consciousness, his own consciousness, also identified with the consciousness of Śiva at this stage. The energy he possesses is the risen form of Kundalini.[42] His mantras have spiritual efficiency.[43] His heart (hṛdaya) is the receptacle of all objects.[44]
Kashmir Shaivism doctrine affirms that nothing can determine Śiva to bestow the final spiritual realization - it is solely based on the unconditioned svātantrya, or, from the opposite perspective, there is no obstacle that can separate the disciple from becoming one with Śiva because he has svātantrya which is the ultimate power that cannot be impeded by anything.[45] Thus, in Kashmir Shaivism there is this paradoxical concept that nothing needs to be done, as the supreme realization can appear without effort, but also, no matter what effort one undergoes, he cannot determine Śiva to liberate his self (ātman).[46] Yet, this is not an invitation to abandon hard work but a justification for humility.
Quote:
Svātantrya has a number of synonyms such as: maheśvaraya (from maheśvara which means supreme lord)[48], or aiśvarya (similarly, from the word Iśvara which also means Lord)[49]. It has been personalized as the Goddess (devi) [50], the virginal feminine deity Uma (virginity being a symbol of existence outside the reach of profane world)[51] and the playful goddess Kumārī[52]. Other scriptures also refer to svātantrya as the Glory of Siva[53] on account of it being identical to the 'ocean' of uncreated light (prakāśa) and cosmic bliss (ānanda) - cidānanda-ghana.
A shame someone had to go tribal with it. How could it be different?
Quote:
In antithesis with the Vedantic concept of Brahman, which is a mere conscious witness without effective power, being inflicted with the illusion (or maya) of the world by an external force, in the Kashmiri Shaivite viewpoint creation is actively willed into existence by the supreme consciousness (Śiva) by the means of his irresistible will-force (Svātantrya).[1]
This doesn't sound like an accurate view of Vedantic Brahmanism.
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spinvis
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro]
#28553580 - 11/23/23 06:39 AM (2 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: This doesn't sound like an accurate view of Vedantic Brahmanism.
Because Kashmir Shaivism is not Vedanta Brahmanism.
Quote:
Kashmir Shaivism and Advaita Vedanta are both non-dual philosophies that give primacy to Universal Consciousness (Chit or Brahman). In Kashmir Shaivism, all things are a manifestation of this Consciousness, but the phenomenal world (Śakti) is real, existing and having its being in Consciousness (Chit).
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syncro
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Re: Impermanence [Re: spinvis]
#28554561 - 11/24/23 01:31 AM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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Well reading about it I'm overall discontented and Thanksgiving stuffed.
Though I accept no antithesis, conceptual language the weakest link, labels, ordering, meh, distinctions interesting at pleasure, art.
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro]
#28554571 - 11/24/23 01:57 AM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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Impermanence isn't true..
The past exists but is hiding..in our dimension we don't "keep the past with us"
But one can experience the past through memory.
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AnattaAtman
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Quote:
BrendanFlock said: Impermanence isn't true..
Well, then, where is the snow of yesterday?
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Lithop
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Quote:
AnattaAtman said:
Quote:
BrendanFlock said: Impermanence isn't true..
Well, then, where is the snow of yesterday?
The clouds of tomorrow.
--------------------
🌬️ 🌻 ➞➞➞ ❮❮❮❮ 🌈 ❹⑤⓿ 🌬️ 🌻 ➞➞➞ ❮❮❮❮ 🌈 ❹⑤⓿ 🌬️ 🌻 ➞➞➞ ❮❮❮❮ 🌈 ❹⑤⓿
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BrendanFlock
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Quote:
AnattaAtman said:
Quote:
BrendanFlock said: Impermanence isn't true..
Well, then, where is the snow of yesterday?
What I am saying is that nothing really "leaves".. it just goes into hiding..
Also to answer your question.. it gets logged into dark matter/energy.. aka Akashic records.
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GenesisCorrupted
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You’re talking about the principal that energy only changes forms. It never really disappears.
Edited by GenesisCorrupted (11/25/23 12:46 AM)
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syncro
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Re: Impermanence [Re: spinvis] 1
#28557920 - 11/27/23 03:07 AM (2 months, 4 hours ago) |
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Quote:
spinvis said:Because Kashmir Shaivism is not Vedanta Brahmanism.
It's making more sense to me in the references. In Advaita they're meaning the attribruteless, and in Shaivism, not to do them justice, Ishvara,... considered active.
I found this interesting. I had only known Kashmir Shaivism pretty much as the name and six-lettered shadhakshar, and the ajapa-japa. I did come across a piece years ago which was profound to me on Shiva's grace. Another I found this week goes more in depth with the tattvas, etc.
https://www.bhagavadgitausa.com/siva_sutras_all.htm

The Tirumantiram is amazing, extensive.
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spinvis
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro] 1
#28558335 - 11/27/23 12:47 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said:
Quote:
spinvis said:Because Kashmir Shaivism is not Vedanta Brahmanism.
It's making more sense to me in the references. In Advaita they're meaning the attribruteless, and in Shaivism, not to do them justice, Ishvara,... considered active.
I found this interesting. I had only known Kashmir Shaivism pretty much as the name and six-lettered shadhakshar, and the ajapa-japa. I did come across a piece years ago which was profound to me on Shiva's grace. Another I found this week goes more in depth with the tattvas, etc.
https://www.bhagavadgitausa.com/siva_sutras_all.htm

The Tirumantiram is amazing, extensive.
Not sure why you're first linking to the Bhagavad Gita, and then to the Tirumantiram, which is a Tamil work? Unless you meant to link to the Shiva Sutras and something went wrong? Here's a link to the Shiva Sutras of Vasugupta with commentary by Shri Shailendra Sharma http://www.shailendrasharma.org/shiva-sutras And another link Shiva Sutras of Vasugupta using a different translation. Here's a link which might help as well, Kashmir Shaivism versus Vedanta – A Synopsis by Piyaray L. Raina. Kashmir Shaivism has 36 tattvas vs the more traditional 25 tattvas which you're familiar with.
Anyway, thanks for the link to the Tamil book and happy Thanksgiving!
If you're interested in reading up on the Kashmir Shaivism texts, read the works of Utpaladeva (The Ishvarapratyabhijnakarika) and Abhinavagupta (Tantraloka and Tantrasara), who laid the foundation to this tradition. And if you want a more modern approach, read the works of Lakshmanjoo and Christopher D Wallis.
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syncro
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Re: Impermanence [Re: spinvis] 1
#28558555 - 11/27/23 04:47 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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The domain says BG but the page linked addresses Shiva Sutras (scrolling down a little). Otherwise I didn't recognize the difference. Ok, the Tirumantiram is Saiva Siddhanta. Thanks for the sources.
Edited by syncro (11/27/23 04:54 PM)
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spinvis
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro] 1
#28558599 - 11/27/23 05:17 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Oh thanks for the clarification, that website looks just weird on mobile, starting with a full page containing 2 x 18 links to the Bhagavad Gita and then three search bars. I was confused by that, but now I see I needed to scroll down like six pages to get there, yes it's the same  
Good stuff
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spinvis
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Back on topic, was reading this book a while back, fits the subject, short except:
Wei Wu Wei - Fingers Pointing Towards the Moon: Reflections of a Pilgrim on the Way - 11. Time and Space - IV - Movement Is Within;
Quote:
If life were to stop for a perceptible moment it would cease to be life; but it would be Time that had stopped. Therefore Time is Movement. But Time is within ourselves (“a function of our receptive apparatus”—Kant); therefore Movement is within ourselves. When we stop (die) Movement stops, and life remains immobile, i.e. eternal—in its permanent state. Do we realise the implications of this?
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syncro
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Re: Impermanence [Re: spinvis] 2
#28561114 - 11/29/23 05:51 PM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
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excellent... we have them now
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syncro
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro] 1
#28561367 - 11/29/23 08:50 PM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
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"Happiness measures no time" -Franz Hartmann
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro] 1
#28561377 - 11/29/23 08:58 PM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
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But couldn’t existence simply be explained as the presence of oneself? Anything beyond that could be a trick. We could just be in a simulation right now. We could exist in a single drop of water between two molecules. That’s how much space there is.
The fact that I know I exist is my existence.
https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation.aspx?paperid=104024#:~:text=We%20believed%20that%20the%20universe,atom%20and%20sub%2Datomic%20particle.
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syncro
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The energy pool. Interesting link. I was reminded of the fractal enfolded magnetic fields we and everything are said to be.
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