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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: Impermanence [Re: Kickle]
#28528076 - 11/03/23 03:57 PM (2 months, 23 days ago) |
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I feel like spiritually this human existence is the lottery now. If people are miserable. They’re not gonna maintain any spiritual growth. They’re gonna probably have worse spiritually than they were before. If you do really well financially. Spiritually diminish. Because you don’t care anymore. Your life is great right now. Who gives a crap what happens afterwards.
So I feel like again this “class” has a very low pass percentage…
The amount of people that actually feel they have undergone spiritual growth in this lifetime, doesn’t seem like a very high percentage of the total population. Do you agree?
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Kickle
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The amount of people that actually feel they have undergone spiritual growth in this lifetime, doesn’t seem like a very high percentage of the total population. Do you agree?
Not really. A majority of those I've talked to have changed their views on spirituality over time. I think learning and adapting is quite normal. But who knows, maybe my sample is skewed?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: Impermanence [Re: Kickle]
#28528113 - 11/03/23 04:28 PM (2 months, 23 days ago) |
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I live in the city. Maybe my pool is the skewed one. 🤣
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syncro
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Though may be relatively few, I think it's underestimating the best representatives that are human and their influence that can bring more average people to their sight.
We also over estimate the significance of human error that is minor, not particularly harming others in intent. Being good is not difficult nor takes great talent, intellect. Meditation and devotion are simple things, and the effect is to purify the heart and mind and to bring openness to those states such as the beginnings of samadhi or mahamudra, gnosis ... If one can establish peace here even partially, to that degree they will find themselves after the body if we are assuming there is life after the body.
Meditation, devotion, study of scripture makes these things more evident, meaning real time, not future time which is speculation in personal experience, but verifying experience in scripture and related now. This board is filled with such, visionary, unity.
What is mind? It's externally human in 1/3 of our daily states, 1/4 if considering turiya.
Edited by syncro (11/22/23 01:21 PM)
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro] 1
#28528243 - 11/03/23 06:01 PM (2 months, 23 days ago) |
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I don’t believe my judgment of human error is a factor spiritually. Like you said, it’s all about intention. I’ve seen a lot of darkness in my lifetime. I don’t feel like most people are very spiritual. By that, I mean the actual belief in the existence of life after death, the spirit, or spirits. People can still undergo spiritual growth. But I don’t know how many people actually feel a true connection to spirituality.
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solarshroomster
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GenesisCorrupted (great screen name, by the way), I relate a lot to what you wrote. I just question if others "saw" it. Because, even if I went crazy, I technically did "see" something, something behind the veil. Have others seen it to?
I don't know who else is spiritual and has these feelings, and who doesn't, because I didn't before trying this medicine. Really, makes me wonder, why do we keep "forgetting"?
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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GenesisCorrupted
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In my opinion. When we reincarnate. We get just a tiny, itty-bitty fraction. Of the knowledge we had in our last life. Just enough. That we felt like we could really benefit from taking it with us. This would be the equivalent of bringing your favorite book with you when you go back to college. Some story. Just a single one. That you could have as a dream perhaps. Just as reference to keep you on the right path.
But I feel like we need to be incredibly receptive to everything we can when we come back. That’s why we keep forgetting everything. Otherwise it could “paint the experience” To use a term from the psychedelic circles.
The best student. Is one ready to learn anything. It isn’t until later. That we can learn that some things aren’t worth knowing. In itself, this repeated experience is its own lesson.
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syncro
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"Why do we keep forgetting?
Hermes was talking about the mind being fire, while the body is earth and water. Fire will burn away the earth and water, therefore in the body there is not much of that mind per se.
When we have spiritual experiences, how much in our mind is the body as rendered through physical senses?
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syncro
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro]
#28528656 - 11/04/23 06:31 AM (2 months, 23 days ago) |
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The perceptions or insights I've thought can be mutually exclusive to the solid external world. The senses withdraw to their reflective source which is mind. We may still see form of the world, but it loses its conceptual or instinctual solidity as it were.
What is Plop!? Suchness no longer projected to something assumed to be apart from mind. Still an object though perhaps, still not all the way. What is suchness? It pulls back from assumed projected form in concept and can be as light between. It can go from physical objects projected in the senses to light around the body, say.
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solarshroomster
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro] 1
#28528767 - 11/04/23 09:08 AM (2 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: In my opinion. When we reincarnate. We get just a tiny, itty-bitty fraction. Of the knowledge we had in our last life. Just enough. That we felt like we could really benefit from taking it with us. This would be the equivalent of bringing your favorite book with you when you go back to college. Some story. Just a single one. That you could have as a dream perhaps. Just as reference to keep you on the right path.
But I feel like we need to be incredibly receptive to everything we can when we come back. That’s why we keep forgetting everything. Otherwise it could “paint the experience” To use a term from the psychedelic circles.
The best student. Is one ready to learn anything. It isn’t until later. That we can learn that some things aren’t worth knowing. In itself, this repeated experience is its own lesson.
This is a really interesting take. I think I kind of agree. It does seem like we take back a little bit of that memory, which is what we get when we have "deja vu" feelings, a memory of a forgotten time when all was "remembered".
Quote:
syncro said: What is Plop!? Suchness no longer projected to something assumed to be apart from mind. Still an object though perhaps, still not all the way. What is suchness? It pulls back from assumed projected form in concept and can be as light between. It can go from physical objects projected in the senses to light around the body, say.
Yeah, I think of "Plop!" as something along the lines of "suchness" too, but more that it is an interaction between the two worlds.
Like "frog!" is the inner-essence of suchness in being an "I" (mind). Like "pond!" is the inner-essence of suchness in being the world (matter). And "plop!" is the interaction between the two, the oneness of Mind and Matter.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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syncro
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Interesting considering interaction between. In that sense it seems to remove a separation. Useful.
I thought of it as interaction or at a border between maya and suchness. Can a border be found? Then where are we forgetting to?
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro]
#28529801 - 11/05/23 01:15 AM (2 months, 22 days ago) |
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Its there until it isn't there anymore.
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connectedcosmos
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I was thinking of space earlier today And trying to figure out exactly what it is
Thought a lot about forms and how they occupy space , space being the formless
Like an atom , even has all of this empty space (formless) and then it has the particles (forms) that are in contrast with this empty space
Just like at our level the forms of objects reside in this formlessness Such as a car driving by on a road
Space took me on a ride through the realms of the mind
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 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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syncro
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What is the form of mind without concrete thought or concept? Is it space? Inner space reveals itself, but it goes beyond space. It is like nonexistence, or only existence. In that is the spontaneity.
What does an Advaitic nun wear? An unhabit.
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro] 1
#28533455 - 11/07/23 08:12 PM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: What is the form of mind without concrete thought or concept? Is it space? Inner space reveals itself, but it goes beyond space. It is like nonexistence, or only existence. In that is the spontaneity.
What does an Advaitic nun wear? An unhabit. 
The observer pure observation is without form or concept.. just pure awareness..
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spinvis
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I had a reply typed out, not sure where it went 
Impermanence also known as aniccā is just one of the three marks of existence according to Buddhism, next to dukkha (commonly translated as "suffering", "unsatisfactory," "unease"), and anattā (without a lasting essence).
Some Buddhist quotes on impermanence.
Gautama Buddha;
Quote:
All conditioned things have the nature of vanishing.
Omori Sogen Rotaishi's commentary of Case 80: Joshu's "A Newborn Baby," from the Hekigan Roku (The Blue Cliff Record), Hakujusha Company, Inc., Tokyo, 1976;
Quote:
Twelfth-century Zen master Setcho wrote, "A ball strikes the boundless swift-flowing waters."
Referring to that quote, Omori Sogen Rotaishi went on to write "Boundless means infinitely vast and magnificent. Although it is called the boundless swift flowing waters, it is not only a river. The heavens, the earth, the entire universe, and everything are on these swift-flowing waters. Human existence also is flowing on these swift flowing waters without stopping even for an instant . . . Everything is flowing, especially the transient nature of all phenomena. Everything changes and flows without stopping. This is the nature of the existence of things, the form and shape of reality. At the same time, it is the same state of being of one who attains the ‘Way’.”
Dōgen;
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Therefore, the very impermanency of grass and tree, thicket and forest is the Buddha nature. The very impermanency of men and things, body and mind, is the Buddha nature. Nature and lands, mountains and rivers, are impermanent because they are the Buddha nature. Supreme and complete enlightenment, because it is impermanent, is the Buddha nature.
Dōgen;
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Permanence is the mind that discriminates the wholesomeness and unwholesomeness of all things.
The Buddhist wheel of life, also known as the bhavacakra, further demonstrates impermanence in the form of Yamarāja, also known as Māra, the God/Demon of death.
A Buddhist wheel of life, including two explanatory pics for the wheel.



With regards to the latest comments in the thread about the mind, some excerpts from Huangbo Xiyun (d. 850) - The Zen Teaching of Huangbo;
Quote:
All the buddhas and sentient beings are only the one mind; there is no other dharma. Since time immemorial, this mind has never been produced or extinguished. It is neither green nor yellow; it has neither form nor characteristics (lakṣaṇa). It does not belong to the categories of either existence or nonexistence. It cannot be measured in terms of new or old, long or short, large or small. It transcends all limits, measures, names, traces, and comparisons. What is right in front of you — that is it. But if you start to think, you will be far off the mark. [The one mind] is like empty space. It has no boundaries and cannot be measured.
This mind is bright and clear like empty space; it has not even the slightest mark or appearance.
Arousing your mind and starting to think deviates from the essence of the dharma and creates an attachment to characteristics. Since time immemorial, no buddhas have clung to characteristics.
Since buddhas and sentient beings are the one mind, they are not different. Like empty space, that mind is free from admixture or deterioration. It is like the great orb of the sun that shines over all four quarters of the world.
When the sun rises, its light shines over the entire world, but empty space has never been illuminated. When the sun sets, darkness pervades the entire world, but empty space has never been darkened. The realms of light and dark alternate, but the nature of empty space is expansive and invariable. The minds of both buddhas and sentient beings are also like this.
The essence of suchness is internally like wood or stone, which does not move or sway; externally, it is like empty space, which has no boundaries or obstructions. It has no subject or object, no direction or locus. It has no characteristics or shapes, and nothing to gain or lose. Those who pursue it are wary of accessing this dharma, for they are afraid of falling into voidness where there is no place to roost; therefore, they retreat as if staring at a sheer precipice. All of them are seeking everywhere for intellectual understanding. This is why those seeking intellectual understanding are [as common as] fur, while those who have awakened to the Way are [as rare as] a horn.
These days, practitioners of the Way do not seek awakening within their own minds. Instead, they look outside their minds, clinging to characteristics and holding on to external objects, turning their backs on the Way.
This pure mind, the original fount — whether in sentient beings or all the buddhas, whether in the mountains or rivers of this world, whether endowed with characteristics or free of characteristics — in all cases, it pervades all realms in the ten directions. Utterly equanimous, it has no characteristics of self or other.
This pure mind, the original fount, is always itself perfectly bright, its radiance illuminating everywhere. Since people of this world are not awakened, they just recognize their seeing, hearing, sensing, and knowing as their minds. Since they are blinded by seeing, hearing, sensing, and knowing, they do not perceive their original essence, which is seminal and bright.
Impermanence with regards to for example Kashmir Shaivism, the phenomenal material world is portrayed as the active and dynamic nature of consciousness, which is described as the spontaneous vibration or pulsation (spanda) of universal consciousness, which is an expression of its freedom (svātāntrya) and power in the form of Śakti.
Kshemaraja - Pratyabhijñā-hṛdayam;
Quote:
Awareness, free and independent, is the cause of the performance of everything. She unfolds the universe through Her own will and on Her own canvas. It becomes diverse by its division into mutually adapting subjects and objects. The individual conscious being, as a condensation of universal Awareness, embodies the entire universe in a microcosmic form.
While the underlying is in the form of pure absolute Universal Consciousness at rest portrayed by Shiva.
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syncro
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Re: Impermanence [Re: spinvis]
#28552639 - 11/22/23 10:10 AM (2 months, 4 days ago) |
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I was reading on the term Svātantrya (sovereignty or free will) - further
Quote:
According to Kashmir Shaivism, spiritual realization is more than a state of illumination (defined as pure witness , non-dual consciousnes or atma-vyapti).[36] Full spiritual realization means to know bliss (ānanda) and to control the energies (śakti) and the mantras[37] (or, the so-called śiva-vyāpti). The root of spiritual efficiency is svātantrya, the operative, dynamic aspect of the absolute.
An adept who reaches spiritual illumination needs to learn how to stabilize his experience. The Kashmir Shaivism scriptures declare that stability is based on the assimilation of the energy of svātantrya.[38] Thus, while the incipient practitioner aims for the experience of the nondual consciousness, the advanced ones focus on the assimilation of all the energies into non-duality. Svātantrya being the root of all energies, it becomes automatically the final step of the spiritual practice.[38]
The will of such an advanced practitioner becomes more and more efficient as it identifies with the will of Śiva. Yet, his actions are necessarily without base in egoism (without the attributes of good or bad)[39] - and this is an attitude that defines the discipline of karma yoga.
Quote:
All the spiritual paths (upāyas): that of Śiva (śāmbhavopāya), that of Śakti (śāktopāya) and that of the man (āṇavopāya) are subsumed under the umbrella of svātantrya as it is the sole mediator of divine grace.[40] The adept who has attained svātantrya is beyond the need for formal meditation - that is - for him to meditate or to act in everyday life is identical - he does all his actions from a state of perfect unity with Śiva from now on. This is the culmination of the Kashmiri Shaivite spiritual practice.[41] Such an adept does not exert himself in maintaining this state of consciousness because it is his own nature. From his point of view, everything is made of just forms of consciousness, his own consciousness, also identified with the consciousness of Śiva at this stage. The energy he possesses is the risen form of Kundalini.[42] His mantras have spiritual efficiency.[43] His heart (hṛdaya) is the receptacle of all objects.[44]
Kashmir Shaivism doctrine affirms that nothing can determine Śiva to bestow the final spiritual realization - it is solely based on the unconditioned svātantrya, or, from the opposite perspective, there is no obstacle that can separate the disciple from becoming one with Śiva because he has svātantrya which is the ultimate power that cannot be impeded by anything.[45] Thus, in Kashmir Shaivism there is this paradoxical concept that nothing needs to be done, as the supreme realization can appear without effort, but also, no matter what effort one undergoes, he cannot determine Śiva to liberate his self (ātman).[46] Yet, this is not an invitation to abandon hard work but a justification for humility.
Quote:
Svātantrya has a number of synonyms such as: maheśvaraya (from maheśvara which means supreme lord)[48], or aiśvarya (similarly, from the word Iśvara which also means Lord)[49]. It has been personalized as the Goddess (devi) [50], the virginal feminine deity Uma (virginity being a symbol of existence outside the reach of profane world)[51] and the playful goddess Kumārī[52]. Other scriptures also refer to svātantrya as the Glory of Siva[53] on account of it being identical to the 'ocean' of uncreated light (prakāśa) and cosmic bliss (ānanda) - cidānanda-ghana.
A shame someone had to go tribal with it. How could it be different?
Quote:
In antithesis with the Vedantic concept of Brahman, which is a mere conscious witness without effective power, being inflicted with the illusion (or maya) of the world by an external force, in the Kashmiri Shaivite viewpoint creation is actively willed into existence by the supreme consciousness (Śiva) by the means of his irresistible will-force (Svātantrya).[1]
This doesn't sound like an accurate view of Vedantic Brahmanism.
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spinvis
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro]
#28553580 - 11/23/23 06:39 AM (2 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: This doesn't sound like an accurate view of Vedantic Brahmanism.
Because Kashmir Shaivism is not Vedanta Brahmanism.
Quote:
Kashmir Shaivism and Advaita Vedanta are both non-dual philosophies that give primacy to Universal Consciousness (Chit or Brahman). In Kashmir Shaivism, all things are a manifestation of this Consciousness, but the phenomenal world (Śakti) is real, existing and having its being in Consciousness (Chit).
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syncro
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Re: Impermanence [Re: spinvis]
#28554561 - 11/24/23 01:31 AM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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Well reading about it I'm overall discontented and Thanksgiving stuffed.
Though I accept no antithesis, conceptual language the weakest link, labels, ordering, meh, distinctions interesting at pleasure, art.
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Impermanence [Re: syncro]
#28554571 - 11/24/23 01:57 AM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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Impermanence isn't true..
The past exists but is hiding..in our dimension we don't "keep the past with us"
But one can experience the past through memory.
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