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Amazon Shop for: ½ Pint Jars, Agar, Autoclave, Brown Rice Flour, Pressure Cooker, Vermiculite

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Offlinetubervegan
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chemiclave use
    #2851818 - 07/02/04 04:57 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Hey everyone I've been trying to make some cakes but they keep getting contaminated. My original method was a 2:1:1 ratio of verm:brf:water + 5% peroxide, I boiled my jars then added the mixture to the jars. I innoculated them with mycelium grown on SDA agar plates. I hoped the peroxide would do the trick. it did not, all of my cakes got contaminated. huu huu huu  :crying:

Here is my next idea. I own a chemiclave (like an autoclave but uses a chemical soultion in addition to heat and pressure) and I was thinking this would definatley be the best thing to use for sterilzing any materials EXCEPT the actual brown rice flour (and maybe the water), I could use it for the vermiculite, but the brownrice flour and water may absorb the chemicals in the vaposterile. Vaposterile is about 75% ethanol, and about .3 percent formaldehyde (Plus about 25% inert ingredients). Obviously using the chemiclave for the sterilization of the actual filled cakes would be a bad idea because the cakes would get formaldehyde in them and then the mushrooms would be carcinogenic etc etc, general bad stuff. BUT I was thinking it would probably be ok if I just filled the chemiclave with water and used it like an autoclave no? does anyone by any chance have experience doing this? I don't wan to ruin my chemiclave.

Normally a chemiclave uses 17 psi, but less temperature because the ethanol boils at a lower temp and because a high temp. is not needed because of the formaldehyde. the cycle is 15 minutes for total sterilization so I was thinking with the water I would maybe up it to anywhere between 20 and 40 minutes.

what do you all think about this idea of mine? I really don't want to ruin another batch


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: chemiclave use [Re: tubervegan]
    #2851895 - 07/02/04 05:17 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

>I boiled my jars then added the mixture to the jars.

You are suppoed to fill the mixture to the jar, THEN boil it.....
You better read the tek again.


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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: chemiclave use [Re: Anno]
    #2852006 - 07/02/04 05:48 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

indeed, the subtrate has to be sterilized as well as the jars or you will get contams.


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Offlinetubervegan
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Re: chemiclave use [Re: Rebirtha]
    #2854053 - 07/03/04 03:14 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

no no I do understand that, my problem is that boilinf is clearly not going to be enough to destroy spores so boiling sealed jars seems pointless to me, so I was trying the peroxide tek, boiling the jars before hand may seem unnecessary but it means less spores to be killed in the first place. Either way I know my jars are spoiled, my question is about my chemiclave. Does anyone know if its safe to run water in a chemiclave and if it will still sterilize?


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: chemiclave use [Re: tubervegan]
    #2855586 - 07/04/04 06:10 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

>my problem is that boilinf is clearly not going to be enough to destroy spores so boiling sealed jars seems pointless to me

Boiling(or pressure cooking) filled jars is NOT pointless, trust me, it's the only way you will ever achieve sterilization.
Not the jars themselve need sterilization, but the stuff that you fill in(your vermiculite, water, brf mixture)

Again, go to www.shroomery.org/faq and READ, READ, READ......


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InvisibleDieCommie
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Re: chemiclave use [Re: tubervegan]
    #2855625 - 07/04/04 07:06 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Dont be so hell bent on the chemiclave man, boiling is good, like he ^^ says READ READ READ...When i first started, i read for a couple hours every night for 2 or 3 weeks... never had ALL my cakes get contam...

Good Luck


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Offlinetubervegan
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Re: chemiclave use [Re: DieCommie]
    #2856283 - 07/04/04 02:21 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

and trust me I've read all teh FAQ and have a biology degree so I've read lots. (saying this jokingly and not in a rude way) speaking of reading, you guys should read my post, because what I'm saying is taht although boiling helps it doesn't cut it, you need heat AND pressure to kill spores, heat alone isn't gooing to kill them, esspecially if it has to conduct through glass and vermiculite (vermiculite is porus and can harbour tons and tons of spores AND its an insulator). So once a gain boiling a sealed jar seems pointless because its not going to sterilize well enough, which is
why we tell people to use an autoclave (pressure cooker).

the reason my jars were contaminated was because the tek I was using isn't meant for what i was doing its an agar tek, once again read my last post, I know why my cakes didn't work, I was asking a question about chemiclaves not about why my cakes were contaminated. I'm just going to run the damn thing and see if it works or not.

>my problem is that <b>boilinf is clearly not going to be enough to destroy spores</b> so boiling sealed jars seems pointless to me


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OfflineCactusMonkey
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Re: chemiclave use [Re: tubervegan]
    #2856376 - 07/04/04 03:08 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Read MMGG boiling my substrate jars worked perfectly. I only had 1 jar contaminate out of 12. I boiled them for exactly 1 hour. IYou probably don't need the chemiclave.


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Offlinedeath_by_desire
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Re: chemiclave use [Re: tubervegan]
    #2857464 - 07/05/04 01:26 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

yup never had any problem with boiling... even though you say it in theory isn't enough, just give it a try because it seems to work pretty well most of the time.. how can you know if that isn't going to be what works for you if you doN't try it...


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Invisiblematts
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Re: chemiclave use [Re: tubervegan]
    #2857519 - 07/05/04 01:43 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)



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Invisiblemicro
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Re: chemiclave use [Re: tubervegan]
    #2857524 - 07/05/04 01:44 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I've never used such an apparatus, but it seems to be for sterilizing instruments and not a substrate. If it is 75% ethanol, if you try and cook substrate, which is mostly water in it, at those temps there will end up being a high % ethanol in the substrate which will either kill the mycelium, or if you let it evaporate, leave the substrate too dry. Don't use ethanol to sterilize your substrate.

Use water vapour to sterilize your substrate (in the jars.) The rationale is very simple -- 250 degrees celcius kills everything. Leave the water/substrate at 15 psi for an hour and it will sterilize it. This IS in the FAQ.

As far as your "chemoclave" is concerned, I don't know what will hurt it -- read the manual.

--
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InvisibleDieCommie
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Re: chemiclave use [Re: tubervegan]
    #2857976 - 07/05/04 04:33 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I think the only reason you need pressure to kill spores, is it raises the temperature...


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OfflineX24
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Re: chemiclave use [Re: DieCommie]
    #3444598 - 12/04/04 05:08 AM (12 years, 3 days ago)

ok so here i am for the last 4 hours now searching the web with this very topic on my mind. ive got a chemiclave, i want to know if the vapo sterile is gonna fuck up my cakes? or if waters gonna blow up my machine? the manual on this thing is weak... tells you only the "donts" really. wether or not i boil a turd or a jar i still wanna know the answer to the question.


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Edited by X24 (12/04/04 05:11 AM)


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Offlinekraj
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Re: chemiclave use [Re: X24]
    #3445269 - 12/04/04 11:35 AM (12 years, 3 days ago)

i had 0 contams when i boiled, i only did 3 jars though...


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Offlinedjred
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Re: chemiclave use [Re: kraj]
    #3445277 - 12/04/04 11:38 AM (12 years, 3 days ago)

just boil your brf cakes in a pot dude real simple..why make it so hard on your self..put atowel down inch or 2 of water cook for an hour or so light boil


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Offlineticktock
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Re: chemiclave use [Re: djred]
    #3445847 - 12/04/04 03:23 PM (12 years, 3 days ago)

"I've read all teh FAQ and have a biology degree"

Ok, but we have some physics going on here too. The pressure isn't killing anything. If it was, we could sterilize by pressurizing a chamber to 3000 psi or so. (The pressure in a scuba tank.)

Put a thermometer in a pot of boiling water. It will say 212F. Now turn your burner way up to crazy hot and measure again. Still 212F. That's the limit at sea level standard atmospheric pressure. When you add more energy, it just turns more water into steam. There's no way to get the temperature up to 213F.

And that's where the pressure cooker comes in. By raising the pressure to 15 psig your temperature levels out at 260F. That's plenty high to destroy most living things. Whatever water is in the jars stays there, because it didn't boil, even at 260F.

Hot, high pressure alcohol might be great for sterilizing surgical instruments. If it gets into your jars it will be poisonous to your spores. People here are not answering about the chemiclave because we don't know. Give it a shot. You are exploring new territory. Perhaps going where no man has gone before. Let us know what you find out. It could be the next big thing.


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OfflineX24
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Re: chemiclave use [Re: ticktock]
    #3448468 - 12/05/04 02:28 AM (12 years, 2 days ago)

well seein as how im a noobie at this...........
and i never claimed to be a brainy smurf.....
and ive got some crazy ideas..... that involve a chemiclave and h202.
im gonna go start a thread about my mishaps and achivements.


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OfflineFreshCaps
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Re: chemiclave use [Re: X24]
    #3448512 - 12/05/04 02:50 AM (12 years, 2 days ago)

Teach us X24... :smile: :smile: :smile:


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Amazon Shop for: ½ Pint Jars, Agar, Autoclave, Brown Rice Flour, Pressure Cooker, Vermiculite

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Mushroom Cultivation

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