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fantanyl
amateur-alchemist


Registered: 12/14/21
Posts: 58
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GHB spiked cider brew revisited
#27842440 - 06/29/22 02:02 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Do some of you guys remember the threads from a whole while ago, which claimed you could ferment MSG to GHB ? I stumbled over them not long ago and want definitely try it out. i know it got a lot of hate and disbelieve here in the forum and especially in all other forums it had been posted .. but the people who did actually try it out all seemed to pretty enjoy it and all the disbelievers did never try it out:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/16543488/fpart/1
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/16543499/fpart/all/vc/1
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17597863/fpart/all
the threads in other forums are not really interesting because there are no real trials
I'd love to hear the experiences of someone who did actually try it out, and would be interested if it is still made here this way by someone. maybe some tips would also be useful, like i remember reading somewhere high temperatures would benefit the reaction, also the sugar sugar/MSG ratio would be interesting. and i read low nutrients, so the yeast is forced to use the MSG is also good.
I'm currently running a fermentation but i bought the wrong ... i thought MSG = Monosodiumglutamate (as it is) is the Natriumsalt of Glutamine like Glutamine <-> glutamate salt heh but actually glutamic acid and glutamine are not the same but i thought fuck it I'll try it anyway, the structure is nearly identical, the yeast could just take the second nitrogen also, who knows and there is as instruction over at the dmt nexus of a guy who makes bananamead with a lot of different ingredients and apparently also glutamine and claims the mead packs quite a serious punch. it cant be the other ingredients because they're all like banana and apple and yeast nutrients stuff ... nothing exciting. the guy seems not to be aware of the MSG to GHB theory and therefore doesnt connect to glutamine, but i have no idea in who tf's mind comes sth like "ah maybe ill just throw a little bit of glutamine into the brew, maybe the taste is great"... the only thing he mentions why he did is that "the yeast seems to very much like it" ... quite mysterious
so guys can someone help ? somebody ever done this ? and pls no "oh my gosh ghb is date rape"-bullshit or it is risky in combination with alcohol and all the other comments nobody wants to hear, i'm full aware of the risks ... thanks
Edited by fantanyl (06/29/22 02:53 PM)
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schmutzen
King of the side-pins



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Re: GHB spiked cider brew revisited [Re: fantanyl] 1
#27842930 - 06/29/22 08:40 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Lizard_Wizard brews with MSG but he's kinda secretive about it.
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"Blow up your TV, throw away your paper. Go to the country, build you a home."
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fantanyl
amateur-alchemist


Registered: 12/14/21
Posts: 58
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Re: GHB spiked cider brew revisited [Re: schmutzen]
#27843283 - 06/30/22 02:46 AM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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interesting 
i thought about it going on but more secretly
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LizardWizard
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Re: GHB spiked cider brew revisited [Re: fantanyl] 2
#27848837 - 07/04/22 09:25 AM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Hi, I was just checking the shroomery for any brewing threads today and I stumbled right upon this one 
Yeah I'm brewing with MSG as a yeast nutrient. I can not confirm nor deny that these brews contain GBL, but I can do you one other that I think is almost as good. Hear me out.
I've put considerable time and effort into reading all the articles and information and discussions on the matter, and from what I have read and subsequently found in brewing experience, is that there are a few important factors that determine conversion from MSG into compounds that will make you sleepy after drinking the resulting brew.
The reason I am a bit secretive about it, are varied.
For one, it requires careful determination in every step of the brewing process, from the choice of yeast form and species, to the point where you bottle and in what you bottle, and a lot more variables along the way. I would love for these variables to not matter much, but as is my experience, it is not only important in the obvious dosage relation matters, but it is even more important in considerations that involve explosions of glass.
That's right. Glass exploding. Possibly in your hands or in your face, or in the face of your children.
I've even refrained from sharing with friends the brews I have made, apart from on my own property.
I will in the future try to write some recommendations for people willing to try it. I won't be able to for the first couple months probably, because of limitations in my experience that I feel need filling as I still encounter new possibilities for dangerous circumstances on a regular basis, but also because of time restrictions since I'm a busy man these days, hence why I don't frequent the boards as much as I did just a couple months ago.
Best I can do for anyone interested in the matters, is read, read, read. When you can't contain yourself any longer, then proceed to buy yourself more fermenting vessels than you think you will need. 5L jugs are my go-to experimenting vessels for gallon sized batches. Only bottle into flip top bottles and store them inside the cardboard boxes they come in, and put those boxes in sturdy plastic boxes with latch lids.
Figure out what available nitrogen means in brewing, and read about yeast and yeast nutrients, specifically about spoilage yeasts, wild yeasts, farmhouse yeasts, diastaticus yeasts, brettanomyces yeast, bottle bombs, how unfermentable sugars and starches can turn into fermentable sugars and starches, how to read plato measurements.
Figure out what yeast you will need and why this yeast for this type of brew. There are important differences and one yeast may not even create any GBL at all where as another may create an abundance. Get all the information you can about your specific yeast, and if you can't find inforrmation, get yourself a different yeast. Learn about attenuation. Realize an attenuation above 82% is likely a yeast that can ferment to bottle bombs unexpectedly when the right precautions are not taken. Regardless these are most often the most ideal yeasts to acquire a high conversion of MSG to, hypothetically, GBL. Realize this may not actually be GBL but perhaps a more toxic compound with an identical subjective experience when ingested, which has been posited, and when I told a chemist friend of mine about this he said this may be true, but also may not be true. He basically said it would depend on the type of conversion being made (enzymatic or catalytic or chemical, I don't remember it clearly), and as in a yeast brew several types of conversions may exist alongside each other or in succession, this may even result in a combination of several compounds, some more benign or toxic than others.
Last, but not least, whatever you brew, tread with caution when consuming for the first time, and store carefully as to avoid getting hurt or hurting others as a consequence of trying to get high, and, of course, use sparingly. These are not soft brews. They can give you a good hangover. Respect the brew and the principles of pressure, expansion and cohesion, and you will be fine. This is not as easy as it may at first glance seem.
-------------------- The best things in life can be smelled on one's fingers.
Edited by LizardWizard (07/04/22 02:24 PM)
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pugster
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Re: GHB spiked cider brew revisited [Re: LizardWizard]
#27855544 - 07/09/22 02:18 AM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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all the info i could find on this points to the fact that the amount of GHB/GBL produced by this fermentation as a home brewer is so small as to be pointless ( you would have to drink a gallon to get 1 'hit' ).
if anyone has any solid evidence pointing otherwise please post it up.
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dizzy_simmons
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Re: GHB spiked cider brew revisited [Re: pugster]
#27856760 - 07/09/22 10:28 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Asante was the OG proponent of the magic spice. Is our beloved admin still adding MSG to his brews???
-------------------- UNDO YOUR DOMESTICATION Looking for: ***The Land of the Free*** Ps. caerulipes Ps. cubensis Ps. cyanescens Ps. ovoideocystidiata Pan. cinctulus Pan. cyanescens
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LizardWizard
GnomeGrower



Registered: 01/07/15
Posts: 13,688
Loc: the parking lot
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Re: GHB spiked cider brew revisited [Re: pugster]
#27858665 - 07/11/22 12:50 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
pugster said: all the info i could find on this points to the fact that the amount of GHB/GBL produced by this fermentation as a home brewer is so small as to be pointless ( you would have to drink a gallon to get 1 'hit' ).
if anyone has any solid evidence pointing otherwise please post it up.
This is not true at all, if what I am brewing contains GBL, which, judging by it's effects, it is.
50 cl of my strongest brew produces an effect of barely being able to keep awake/nodding out completely.
Just FYI.
EDIT: Oh, and, uh... CA: 50 cl homebrew GBL spiked tropical cider, feeling quite sleepy, hard to keep awake and I keep forgetting I need to do something, and I'm hella euphoric. This is not my strongest brew btw.
I know this isn't WCA but just sayin 
2nd edit: by my calculations, the recipe of my strongest brew could be an additional 50% stronger if the yeast culture can be kept happy and thriving, and the wya to keep it happy and thriving, is to add more (to the right ratio, of course) MSG since the MSG is a provider of nutrients to the yeast culture, nutrients it so desperately needs to stay healthy, as a replacement of the usually used yeast nutrients such as, for instance, DAP.
And my calculations assume a nitrogen requirement on the lower end of the spectrum to allow for some of the nitrogen requirements to be filled in by the byproducts of whatever is used as a carbohydrate source, whereas in reality, it seems that one could easily switch to the higher end of the spectrum or even above that number with the right yeast and, most importantly, enough time and care for the right conditions.
You can say this is pointless, but if you mean to say it is pointless because of lack of potency then you clearly lack the brewing experience and haven't done half the reading you could have.
Solid evidence I can't provide, but if you'll take some fluid evidence instead, I'll pour you a pint so you can sleep on it.
-------------------- The best things in life can be smelled on one's fingers.
Edited by LizardWizard (07/11/22 01:08 PM)
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pugster
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Re: GHB spiked cider brew revisited [Re: LizardWizard]
#27859479 - 07/12/22 02:01 AM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
LizardWizard said:
Quote:
pugster said: all the info i could find on this points to the fact that the amount of GHB/GBL produced by this fermentation as a home brewer is so small as to be pointless ( you would have to drink a gallon to get 1 'hit' ).
if anyone has any solid evidence pointing otherwise please post it up.
This is not true at all, if what I am brewing contains GBL, which, judging by it's effects, it is.
50 cl of my strongest brew produces an effect of barely being able to keep awake/nodding out completely.
Just FYI.
EDIT: Oh, and, uh... CA: 50 cl homebrew GBL spiked tropical cider, feeling quite sleepy, hard to keep awake and I keep forgetting I need to do something, and I'm hella euphoric. This is not my strongest brew btw.
I know this isn't WCA but just sayin 
2nd edit: by my calculations, the recipe of my strongest brew could be an additional 50% stronger if the yeast culture can be kept happy and thriving, and the wya to keep it happy and thriving, is to add more (to the right ratio, of course) MSG since the MSG is a provider of nutrients to the yeast culture, nutrients it so desperately needs to stay healthy, as a replacement of the usually used yeast nutrients such as, for instance, DAP.
And my calculations assume a nitrogen requirement on the lower end of the spectrum to allow for some of the nitrogen requirements to be filled in by the byproducts of whatever is used as a carbohydrate source, whereas in reality, it seems that one could easily switch to the higher end of the spectrum or even above that number with the right yeast and, most importantly, enough time and care for the right conditions.
You can say this is pointless, but if you mean to say it is pointless because of lack of potency then you clearly lack the brewing experience and haven't done half the reading you could have.
Solid evidence I can't provide, but if you'll take some fluid evidence instead, I'll pour you a pint so you can sleep on it.
ok you have me interested, what exactly do you mean by in bold ? - im not a chemist but have been brewing and distilling for over 20yrs
*im presuming you are the same guy that posted about this on bluelight going back to 2012 ?
Edited by pugster (07/12/22 02:47 AM)
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LizardWizard
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Re: GHB spiked cider brew revisited [Re: pugster]
#27859531 - 07/12/22 04:41 AM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Oh god no, I've only been brewing this brew for a couple months at most, not 2012 
Haven't posted about it either in any other forum to my knowledge. So I'm absolutely NOT that guy, whoever it is 
what I mean by the points in bold is what I said, if the right yeast is used, it will likely consume more than even the higher end of the numbers of nitrogen the yeast needs, because no one ever stated yeast stops using the nitrogen when it's done consuming sugars, and the higher the levels of nitrogen available to the yeast, the faster and more vigorously primary happens, and the faster and more complete conversion will become, with higher attenuation levels as a result.
Types of yeast that are conducive to higher GBL production are rumored to be the types that produce more fusel alcohols, and when the conditions are tailored to produce more fusels, there will theoretically be a higher conversion level of MSG to GBL.
But these yeasts are also the types of yeasts that infect bottles of regular beer so they become sour beer in bottlebombs. The types that need long fermentation times because of a possible tertiary fermentation where the pressure in the bottle becomes so great due to unfermentable sugars being transformed in fermentable ones, but only after weeks or months of ripening.
That's why you need to inform yourself more than you did. If you did, I wouldn't have had to spend my lunch break tellling you about it.
I've got a jackdaw in my chimney again. It's hanging on half-way, trying to hold on instead of just letting go to where I can grab it and set it free. Oh well. Guess I'll have to just wait until it exhausts itself enough to come down.
Smoking a fat bong then I'm back to work!
Been working in this beer store, best beer store in the entirity of Belgium no less, and it's only a couple minutes from home. And I still like the people I'm working for, for now. Let's hope that don't change. I'd hate for that to change.
-------------------- The best things in life can be smelled on one's fingers.
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fantanyl
amateur-alchemist


Registered: 12/14/21
Posts: 58
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Re: GHB spiked cider brew revisited [Re: LizardWizard]
#27863250 - 07/15/22 02:47 AM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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BIG Thanks for the long replys @LizardWizard! Very helpfull starting points you gave about different yeasts and attenuation! I'll have to read many many things up, as i'm just starting in brewing experiments in general. I'm currently doing also a lot of other non msg related brewing experiments a'la Stephen buhner. I think these yeast's attributes you mention could be the key in this area, too. I probably telling you nothing new here but for the other guys here: "stephen buhner - sacred and herbal healing beers" is a very good read if you're interested in herbal brews with a lil extra punch. I tried different wormwood and related absinthe-herb brews and have to say it definitly does make a difference if the herbs are yeast fermented and not just macerated (and distilled). Stephen buhner calls for wild yeast, but currently i'm not yet experienced enough to do it like that without the not recognition of possible malfermentation and poisoning myself with pathogens as on top of that the herbs are much harder to digest for the yeasts than a mash as the herbs contain a lot of preservatives/natural fungizides. I think the wild yeasts probably would have the right attributes you mentioned and produce a lot of fusel alkohols. some ingredents of the herbs are probably converted to something interesting under these same conditions as the msg to ghb conversion! Currently i have only tried a couple of different runs with distillers yeast yet and looking foreward to the bottleing of the batches with wine yeast. The distillers yeast is probably the least optimal yeast in therms of the mentioned attributes and still gave a noticeable difference in psychoactivity ... i'm very excited about the wine yeast experiments and will defintily take a look around for yeasts with high attenuation etc ... a lot of research will follow and then I'll write back ! May i ask you (@LizardWizard) wich type of yeast do you use for good results in msg brews? and did you ever try to wild ferment? (msg related and in general)
Thanks again & cheers!
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LizardWizard
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Re: GHB spiked cider brew revisited [Re: fantanyl]
#27867174 - 07/18/22 07:07 AM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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I sometimes do partial wild ferments when working with fruits, though not always, by pitching yeast after the wild yeasts have taken hold, but you gotta watch it with wild yeasts cause some of them may give off poisons for other yeasts. Some yeasts can live together with wild yeast, some can't. And there's more than 2 options in that regard Look for more information on killer factor and being positive/negative/neutral/killer/immune in that regard.
What I use for good results in msg brews is my common sense and my willingness to read and discover. If you find yourself in short supply of either, you should stop right now. If you have both, it should render your question obsolete. After all, I've already given you more keys than my ring can spare.
-------------------- The best things in life can be smelled on one's fingers.
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Drnochromo
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Re: GHB spiked cider brew revisited [Re: LizardWizard]
#28515991 - 10/23/23 10:07 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
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Dear @LizardWizard,
I have a lot of experience with home brewing, specifically home distillation. It's been over a year since you said you'd provide recommendations for the cider fermentation steps. I'd appreciate it if you could provide any insight into my selected materials for the fermentation. If not I'm most curious about the yeast you used with the most success.
M02 Cider is a high ester-producing cider strain that I chose. When using standard apple juice with a high nitrogen requirement, approximately 1.67 grams of Dap are required to achieve a YAN of 350. Msg has a free nitrogen content of 6.04%, whereas Dap has a free nitrogen content of about 21%, meaning that 5.81 grams of msg are required per litre. If we assume that all msg is converted to ghb, the levels of ghb would be very high and noticeable.
Regard,
Drnochromo
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LizardWizard
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Re: GHB spiked cider brew revisited [Re: Drnochromo]
#28517389 - 10/25/23 06:01 AM (3 months, 2 days ago) |
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High!
What carbohydrate source are you adding? To what brix level are you bringing it?
It's been a long while since I brewed any, and I never got around to writing specific instructions, rather I'm still at the stage of developing a recipe that will test what I've learned so far. A bit hazy on the details on the moments since it's been a while.
I'm going to check my recipes and other notes and I'll get back to you through pm probably.
-------------------- The best things in life can be smelled on one's fingers.
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