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OfflineSirseth99
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Large scale grain prep for grain spawn?
    #28513488 - 10/21/23 09:07 PM (3 months, 5 days ago)

Could someone possibly tell me the best possible way to soak large scale amounts of grain for grain spawn bags? For example if I wanted to make 50 8 pound bags(wet) how would I go about presoaking all that grain at once for sterilization?


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Offlinedeadmandave
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: Sirseth99]
    #28513586 - 10/22/23 12:01 AM (3 months, 5 days ago)

Hot water. Big pot or many small pot. Cook until hydrated then drain. :rolleyes:

more difficult is sterilizing 50 bags at once. Please tell me you're not planning to steam them at atmospheric pressure.

Seriously tho, I would check the grain prep teks in the mush cult board. Cube grows use way more grains than gourmet grows. For instance four 5lb bags of spawn can easily grow a hundred pounds of gourmets.

What's your plan with all that grain?


Edited by deadmandave (10/22/23 12:02 AM)


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OfflineSirseth99
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave]
    #28513650 - 10/22/23 03:57 AM (3 months, 5 days ago)

I appreciate the information thanks and I was planning on steam sterilization yes, is that not a good route for so many bags or something else?


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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: Sirseth99] * 1
    #28513831 - 10/22/23 08:20 AM (3 months, 5 days ago)

Steam sterilization isn't a good idea for even one bag. You will quickly learn that the level of sterility granted by atmospheric (1psi) steam sterilization is not good enough to make axenic spawn.


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OfflineSirseth99
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave]
    #28513910 - 10/22/23 09:33 AM (3 months, 5 days ago)

Okay what is steam sterilization best used for? And what method do you suggest for large scale sterilization?


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OfflineSirseth99
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave]
    #28513915 - 10/22/23 09:37 AM (3 months, 5 days ago)

I've just grown super passionate about mushrooms and mycology in general in the last year and have done alot of learning and so now I'm trying to start a farm of my own and need to know as much as I can about doing things at a large scale lol


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Offlinedeadmandave
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: Sirseth99]
    #28514079 - 10/22/23 11:57 AM (3 months, 5 days ago)

The biggest autoclave you can afford. There's 80-120l autoclaves from China that are reasonably priced.


Atmospheric sterilization is best used for masters mix or other bulk substrate.


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Invisiblealaskappalachian
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave]
    #28514381 - 10/22/23 03:40 PM (3 months, 5 days ago)

^^^ x2.  Ebay has some good vertical units for fair prices actually...  It'll pay for itself.


--------------------


"First we build the tools, then they build us."

THE 49th MYCOJOURNAL: Exotics, Auroras, and Entities


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OfflineSirseth99
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave]
    #28516559 - 10/24/23 12:45 PM (3 months, 3 days ago)

Thanks I went and found some 150-200l autoclaves, mushroom farm coming soon!


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OnlineStromriderM
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: Sirseth99]
    #28517734 - 10/25/23 01:28 PM (3 months, 2 days ago)

Northern Brewer sells 30 gallon grain pots that work great for boiling a large amount of grain. You can do 75# of dry grain at once that will make you 27 5# grain bags


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Offlinecornwallacediggler
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave] * 1
    #28531533 - 11/06/23 09:57 AM (2 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

deadmandave said:
Hot water. Big pot or many small pot. Cook until hydrated then drain. :rolleyes:

more difficult is sterilizing 50 bags at once. Please tell me you're not planning to steam them at atmospheric pressure.

Seriously tho, I would check the grain prep teks in the mush cult board. Cube grows use way more grains than gourmet grows. For instance four 5lb bags of spawn can easily grow a hundred pounds of gourmets.

What's your plan with all that grain?




I've been using homemade atmospheric 55 gal steamers and an 80 gal bubbas barrels type steamer and have a very high success rate sterilizing spawn. The trick is to run it for 36 hrs... I grow quite a bit this way. Most people just don't run them long enough. But I will say, I was still mostly successful even just running at 24hrs for a few years. I would love one of those new Chinese autoclaves though. I have a bubbas barrels steam generator that I was planning to use to pump steam into 4 to 6 55 gal barrels but that was purchased a couple years back before those new autoclaves became more popular. We may sell that to fund getting one. Or we may just keep it for substrate pasteurization. All in all my point here is that atmospheric steam can work great, you just need to run it way longer than people do for substrate blocks used for edibles.


Edited by cornwallacediggler (11/06/23 09:59 AM)


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OnlineStromriderM
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: cornwallacediggler]
    #28532075 - 11/06/23 05:56 PM (2 months, 20 days ago)

Oh god here we go :facepalm:


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Offlinecornwallacediggler
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: Stromrider] * 1
    #28532364 - 11/06/23 09:55 PM (2 months, 20 days ago)

What? A lot of people thinking they know what's up when they don't? Lol. The proof is in the pudding for me. I have very little loss. This forum is hilarious. So many egos and people needing to be right and being willing to insult others and belittle them for having opinions or experiences that differ from their own. There's a big reason I post so little here even if I've been around / lurking for years. I'm not saying that's you specifically but I made my post knowing people will wanna chime in talking shit lol.


Edited by cornwallacediggler (11/07/23 11:19 PM)


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Offlinetrippleblack
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: cornwallacediggler]
    #28532405 - 11/06/23 11:25 PM (2 months, 20 days ago)

boiling and draining is a waste of time and energy. 

add 75% water to grain -perfect ratio for rye or oats, seal bag, then autoclave.  the water turns to steam and forces its way into the grain like milk in cookies. no need to waste time and energy by hot water extracting your grains then pouring it all down the drain.


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OnlineStromriderM
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: trippleblack] * 2
    #28532567 - 11/07/23 06:38 AM (2 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

trippleblack said:
boiling and draining is a waste of time and energy. 

add 75% water to grain -perfect ratio for rye or oats, seal bag, then autoclave.  the water turns to steam and forces its way into the grain like milk in cookies. no need to waste time and energy by hot water extracting your grains then pouring it all down the drain.





You should contact the big commercial spawn producers and let them know. You could save them hundreds of thousands of dollars with this information.

I joke but I'll just say what works at a small hobby scale doesn't usually scale up for large scale production. You can get by with a lot of less than ideal methods at a hobby level. The problem with your method is it doesn't get the grain fully penetrated with moisture until the end of the autoclave cycle or even after the cycle. This doesn't allow steam penetration throughout the grain for the duration needed for axenic spawn. You'll also never get completely even hydration of the grain


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Offlinetrippleblack
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: Stromrider]
    #28532594 - 11/07/23 07:15 AM (2 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Stromrider said:
Quote:

trippleblack said:
boiling and draining is a waste of time and energy. 

add 75% water to grain -perfect ratio for rye or oats, seal bag, then autoclave.  the water turns to steam and forces its way into the grain like milk in cookies. no need to waste time and energy by hot water extracting your grains then pouring it all down the drain.





You should contact the big commercial spawn producers and let them know. You could save them hundreds of thousands of dollars with this information.

I joke but I'll just say what works at a small hobby scale doesn't usually scale up for large scale production. You can get by with a lot of less than ideal methods at a hobby level. The problem with your method is it doesn't get the grain fully penetrated with moisture until the end of the autoclave cycle or even after the cycle. This doesn't allow steam penetration throughout the grain for the duration needed for axenic spawn. You'll also never get completely even hydration of the grain





How sure are you that the method i'm using don't allow for even steam penetration throughout the grain and complete sterility?

I would never consider myself on scale of a commercial grower, but i am growing on a much-much larger scale than any hobby grower. 

You could be 100% correct, I have not noticed any evident negatives that would make me think my spawn isn't axenic. 


Edited by trippleblack (11/07/23 07:21 AM)


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Offlinedeadmandave
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: cornwallacediggler]
    #28532764 - 11/07/23 10:31 AM (2 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

cornwallacediggler said:
Quote:

deadmandave said:
Hot water. Big pot or many small pot. Cook until hydrated then drain. :rolleyes:

more difficult is sterilizing 50 bags at once. Please tell me you're not planning to steam them at atmospheric pressure.

Seriously tho, I would check the grain prep teks in the mush cult board. Cube grows use way more grains than gourmet grows. For instance four 5lb bags of spawn can easily grow a hundred pounds of gourmets.

What's your plan with all that grain?




I've been using homemade atmospheric 55 gal steamers and an 80 gal bubbas barrels type steamer and have a very high success rate sterilizing spawn. The trick is to run it for 36 hrs... I grow quite a bit this way. Most people just don't run them long enough. But I will say, I was still mostly successful even just running at 24hrs for a few years. I would love one of those new Chinese autoclaves though. I have a bubbas barrels steam generator that I was planning to use to pump steam into 4 to 6 55 gal barrels but that was purchased a couple years back before those new autoclaves became more popular. We may sell that to fund getting one. Or we may just keep it for substrate pasteurization. All in all my point here is that atmospheric steam can work great, you just need to run it way longer than people do for substrate blocks used for edibles.




Interesting and like you say proof is in the pudding. We have not seen your pudding tho so it's hard to accept.

I think we have all tried steaming grains because it would be cheaper than a huge autoclave. I've never gone longer than 24 hrs. There's other more learned folks than me who like to think overcooking grains or sub will result in reduced yield.

I am curious why you're still interested in a large autoclave if steaming has good results?

Imo spawn is so crucial to a mushroom op that it's not worth risking it all on possible bacterial vectors. Especially considering the amount of spawn necessary for a farm, it's really not very much. By the time you're needing 200lbs of spawn, a $3-5k autoclave can be budgeted.

For perspective, 16lbs of spawn (which can be cooked in one run of a 925 autoclave) can generate  more than 100lbs of mushrooms.


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Offlinecornwallacediggler
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave] * 1
    #28532916 - 11/07/23 12:39 PM (2 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

deadmandave said:
Quote:

cornwallacediggler said:
Quote:

deadmandave said:
Hot water. Big pot or many small pot. Cook until hydrated then drain. :rolleyes:

more difficult is sterilizing 50 bags at once. Please tell me you're not planning to steam them at atmospheric pressure.

Seriously tho, I would check the grain prep teks in the mush cult board. Cube grows use way more grains than gourmet grows. For instance four 5lb bags of spawn can easily grow a hundred pounds of gourmets.

What's your plan with all that grain?




I've been using homemade atmospheric 55 gal steamers and an 80 gal bubbas barrels type steamer and have a very high success rate sterilizing spawn. The trick is to run it for 36 hrs... I grow quite a bit this way. Most people just don't run them long enough. But I will say, I was still mostly successful even just running at 24hrs for a few years. I would love one of those new Chinese autoclaves though. I have a bubbas barrels steam generator that I was planning to use to pump steam into 4 to 6 55 gal barrels but that was purchased a couple years back before those new autoclaves became more popular. We may sell that to fund getting one. Or we may just keep it for substrate pasteurization. All in all my point here is that atmospheric steam can work great, you just need to run it way longer than people do for substrate blocks used for edibles.




Interesting and like you say proof is in the pudding. We have not seen your pudding tho so it's hard to accept.

I think we have all tried steaming grains because it would be cheaper than a huge autoclave. I've never gone longer than 24 hrs. There's other more learned folks than me who like to think overcooking grains or sub will result in reduced yield.

I am curious why you're still interested in a large autoclave if steaming has good results?

Imo spawn is so crucial to a mushroom op that it's not worth risking it all on possible bacterial vectors. Especially considering the amount of spawn necessary for a farm, it's really not very much. By the time you're needing 200lbs of spawn, a $3-5k autoclave can be budgeted.

For perspective, 16lbs of spawn (which can be cooked in one run of a 925 autoclave) can generate  more than 100lbs of mushrooms.





I mean I don't post stuff on here generally for security reasons but have been feeling more inclined to do so. I don't really care to flex what I do on the internet. You don't need to believe me if you don't want to lol. I don't need the validation.

The 55 gal fits around 70 2.5L bags of grain. When I was partnering with a friend that had the 80 gal bubbas barrel it fit about 110.. I have seen a significant decrease in loss going up to 36 hours and the grains and fruits produce just as well.

The reason for the autoclave is faster turn around. The Chinese ones that reach 30psi can cycle very quickly and be re loaded. Vs the long af cook times of a steamer barrel type setup. They simply weren't as widespread when we made our purchases in the past and have now gotten more reviews to where we would feel more comfortable making the purchase. We're only doing 35/ 40LB of cubes a month right now. Thats running the steamer once a week. And prices are super low / overhead super high... that's why we're avoiding large equipment purchases for the time being... I already owe my business partner 5k... my other partner owes him like 2k... shits not selling because the organized crime groups in California driving the prices super low...


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Offlinedeadmandave
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: cornwallacediggler]
    #28533090 - 11/07/23 02:52 PM (2 months, 20 days ago)

Its not about flexing but sharing of information so we can all learn something. That being said, anyone can type "atmospheric steam sterilization works, i do it all the time. yall just aint cooking long enough" but if you were to show the evidence it would be more persuasive. Grain prep in atmospheric conditions has been looked over many times and no one has posted and conclusive evidence that it works anywhere near as consistently as temps in the 250f range.

i'd like to see what your grains look like before fruiting, what the fruits look like and how much yield you get. this all might be moot because youre growing cubes and we be talking about gourmet.


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OnlineStromriderM
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: cornwallacediggler] * 1
    #28533095 - 11/07/23 02:55 PM (2 months, 20 days ago)

The race to the bottom with bulk cube prices happened so incredibly fast. I've known it was coming for a couple of years but I didn't see it happening that fast

About the atmospheric steaming of grains I'll just quote Johnny Cash, "you can run on for a long time but sooner or later God is gonna cut you down"
I've seen this play out many times now.


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