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Sirseth99
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Large scale grain prep for grain spawn?
#28513488 - 10/21/23 09:07 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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Could someone possibly tell me the best possible way to soak large scale amounts of grain for grain spawn bags? For example if I wanted to make 50 8 pound bags(wet) how would I go about presoaking all that grain at once for sterilization?
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deadmandave
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: Sirseth99]
#28513586 - 10/22/23 12:01 AM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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Hot water. Big pot or many small pot. Cook until hydrated then drain.
more difficult is sterilizing 50 bags at once. Please tell me you're not planning to steam them at atmospheric pressure.
Seriously tho, I would check the grain prep teks in the mush cult board. Cube grows use way more grains than gourmet grows. For instance four 5lb bags of spawn can easily grow a hundred pounds of gourmets.
What's your plan with all that grain?
Edited by deadmandave (10/22/23 12:02 AM)
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Sirseth99
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave]
#28513650 - 10/22/23 03:57 AM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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I appreciate the information thanks and I was planning on steam sterilization yes, is that not a good route for so many bags or something else?
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deadmandave
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: Sirseth99] 1
#28513831 - 10/22/23 08:20 AM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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Steam sterilization isn't a good idea for even one bag. You will quickly learn that the level of sterility granted by atmospheric (1psi) steam sterilization is not good enough to make axenic spawn.
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Sirseth99
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave]
#28513910 - 10/22/23 09:33 AM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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Okay what is steam sterilization best used for? And what method do you suggest for large scale sterilization?
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Sirseth99
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave]
#28513915 - 10/22/23 09:37 AM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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I've just grown super passionate about mushrooms and mycology in general in the last year and have done alot of learning and so now I'm trying to start a farm of my own and need to know as much as I can about doing things at a large scale lol
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deadmandave
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: Sirseth99]
#28514079 - 10/22/23 11:57 AM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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The biggest autoclave you can afford. There's 80-120l autoclaves from China that are reasonably priced.
Atmospheric sterilization is best used for masters mix or other bulk substrate.
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alaskappalachian
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave]
#28514381 - 10/22/23 03:40 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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^^^ x2. Ebay has some good vertical units for fair prices actually... It'll pay for itself.
-------------------- "First we build the tools, then they build us." THE 49th MYCOJOURNAL: Exotics, Auroras, and Entities
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Sirseth99
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave]
#28516559 - 10/24/23 12:45 PM (3 months, 2 days ago) |
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Thanks I went and found some 150-200l autoclaves, mushroom farm coming soon!
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Stromrider
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: Sirseth99]
#28517734 - 10/25/23 01:28 PM (3 months, 1 day ago) |
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Northern Brewer sells 30 gallon grain pots that work great for boiling a large amount of grain. You can do 75# of dry grain at once that will make you 27 5# grain bags
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cornwallacediggler
atmospheric steam specialist



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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave] 1
#28531533 - 11/06/23 09:57 AM (2 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
deadmandave said: Hot water. Big pot or many small pot. Cook until hydrated then drain.
more difficult is sterilizing 50 bags at once. Please tell me you're not planning to steam them at atmospheric pressure.
Seriously tho, I would check the grain prep teks in the mush cult board. Cube grows use way more grains than gourmet grows. For instance four 5lb bags of spawn can easily grow a hundred pounds of gourmets.
What's your plan with all that grain?
I've been using homemade atmospheric 55 gal steamers and an 80 gal bubbas barrels type steamer and have a very high success rate sterilizing spawn. The trick is to run it for 36 hrs... I grow quite a bit this way. Most people just don't run them long enough. But I will say, I was still mostly successful even just running at 24hrs for a few years. I would love one of those new Chinese autoclaves though. I have a bubbas barrels steam generator that I was planning to use to pump steam into 4 to 6 55 gal barrels but that was purchased a couple years back before those new autoclaves became more popular. We may sell that to fund getting one. Or we may just keep it for substrate pasteurization. All in all my point here is that atmospheric steam can work great, you just need to run it way longer than people do for substrate blocks used for edibles.
Edited by cornwallacediggler (11/06/23 09:59 AM)
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Stromrider
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Oh god here we go
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cornwallacediggler
atmospheric steam specialist



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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: Stromrider] 1
#28532364 - 11/06/23 09:55 PM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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What? A lot of people thinking they know what's up when they don't? Lol. The proof is in the pudding for me. I have very little loss. This forum is hilarious. So many egos and people needing to be right and being willing to insult others and belittle them for having opinions or experiences that differ from their own. There's a big reason I post so little here even if I've been around / lurking for years. I'm not saying that's you specifically but I made my post knowing people will wanna chime in talking shit lol.
Edited by cornwallacediggler (11/07/23 11:19 PM)
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trippleblack
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boiling and draining is a waste of time and energy.
add 75% water to grain -perfect ratio for rye or oats, seal bag, then autoclave. the water turns to steam and forces its way into the grain like milk in cookies. no need to waste time and energy by hot water extracting your grains then pouring it all down the drain.
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Stromrider
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: trippleblack] 2
#28532567 - 11/07/23 06:38 AM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
trippleblack said: boiling and draining is a waste of time and energy.
add 75% water to grain -perfect ratio for rye or oats, seal bag, then autoclave. the water turns to steam and forces its way into the grain like milk in cookies. no need to waste time and energy by hot water extracting your grains then pouring it all down the drain.
You should contact the big commercial spawn producers and let them know. You could save them hundreds of thousands of dollars with this information.
I joke but I'll just say what works at a small hobby scale doesn't usually scale up for large scale production. You can get by with a lot of less than ideal methods at a hobby level. The problem with your method is it doesn't get the grain fully penetrated with moisture until the end of the autoclave cycle or even after the cycle. This doesn't allow steam penetration throughout the grain for the duration needed for axenic spawn. You'll also never get completely even hydration of the grain
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trippleblack
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: Stromrider]
#28532594 - 11/07/23 07:15 AM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Stromrider said:
Quote:
trippleblack said: boiling and draining is a waste of time and energy.
add 75% water to grain -perfect ratio for rye or oats, seal bag, then autoclave. the water turns to steam and forces its way into the grain like milk in cookies. no need to waste time and energy by hot water extracting your grains then pouring it all down the drain.
You should contact the big commercial spawn producers and let them know. You could save them hundreds of thousands of dollars with this information.
I joke but I'll just say what works at a small hobby scale doesn't usually scale up for large scale production. You can get by with a lot of less than ideal methods at a hobby level. The problem with your method is it doesn't get the grain fully penetrated with moisture until the end of the autoclave cycle or even after the cycle. This doesn't allow steam penetration throughout the grain for the duration needed for axenic spawn. You'll also never get completely even hydration of the grain
How sure are you that the method i'm using don't allow for even steam penetration throughout the grain and complete sterility?
I would never consider myself on scale of a commercial grower, but i am growing on a much-much larger scale than any hobby grower.
You could be 100% correct, I have not noticed any evident negatives that would make me think my spawn isn't axenic.
Edited by trippleblack (11/07/23 07:21 AM)
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deadmandave
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Quote:
cornwallacediggler said:
Quote:
deadmandave said: Hot water. Big pot or many small pot. Cook until hydrated then drain.
more difficult is sterilizing 50 bags at once. Please tell me you're not planning to steam them at atmospheric pressure.
Seriously tho, I would check the grain prep teks in the mush cult board. Cube grows use way more grains than gourmet grows. For instance four 5lb bags of spawn can easily grow a hundred pounds of gourmets.
What's your plan with all that grain?
I've been using homemade atmospheric 55 gal steamers and an 80 gal bubbas barrels type steamer and have a very high success rate sterilizing spawn. The trick is to run it for 36 hrs... I grow quite a bit this way. Most people just don't run them long enough. But I will say, I was still mostly successful even just running at 24hrs for a few years. I would love one of those new Chinese autoclaves though. I have a bubbas barrels steam generator that I was planning to use to pump steam into 4 to 6 55 gal barrels but that was purchased a couple years back before those new autoclaves became more popular. We may sell that to fund getting one. Or we may just keep it for substrate pasteurization. All in all my point here is that atmospheric steam can work great, you just need to run it way longer than people do for substrate blocks used for edibles.
Interesting and like you say proof is in the pudding. We have not seen your pudding tho so it's hard to accept.
I think we have all tried steaming grains because it would be cheaper than a huge autoclave. I've never gone longer than 24 hrs. There's other more learned folks than me who like to think overcooking grains or sub will result in reduced yield.
I am curious why you're still interested in a large autoclave if steaming has good results?
Imo spawn is so crucial to a mushroom op that it's not worth risking it all on possible bacterial vectors. Especially considering the amount of spawn necessary for a farm, it's really not very much. By the time you're needing 200lbs of spawn, a $3-5k autoclave can be budgeted.
For perspective, 16lbs of spawn (which can be cooked in one run of a 925 autoclave) can generate more than 100lbs of mushrooms.
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cornwallacediggler
atmospheric steam specialist



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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave] 1
#28532916 - 11/07/23 12:39 PM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
deadmandave said:
Quote:
cornwallacediggler said:
Quote:
deadmandave said: Hot water. Big pot or many small pot. Cook until hydrated then drain.
more difficult is sterilizing 50 bags at once. Please tell me you're not planning to steam them at atmospheric pressure.
Seriously tho, I would check the grain prep teks in the mush cult board. Cube grows use way more grains than gourmet grows. For instance four 5lb bags of spawn can easily grow a hundred pounds of gourmets.
What's your plan with all that grain?
I've been using homemade atmospheric 55 gal steamers and an 80 gal bubbas barrels type steamer and have a very high success rate sterilizing spawn. The trick is to run it for 36 hrs... I grow quite a bit this way. Most people just don't run them long enough. But I will say, I was still mostly successful even just running at 24hrs for a few years. I would love one of those new Chinese autoclaves though. I have a bubbas barrels steam generator that I was planning to use to pump steam into 4 to 6 55 gal barrels but that was purchased a couple years back before those new autoclaves became more popular. We may sell that to fund getting one. Or we may just keep it for substrate pasteurization. All in all my point here is that atmospheric steam can work great, you just need to run it way longer than people do for substrate blocks used for edibles.
Interesting and like you say proof is in the pudding. We have not seen your pudding tho so it's hard to accept.
I think we have all tried steaming grains because it would be cheaper than a huge autoclave. I've never gone longer than 24 hrs. There's other more learned folks than me who like to think overcooking grains or sub will result in reduced yield.
I am curious why you're still interested in a large autoclave if steaming has good results?
Imo spawn is so crucial to a mushroom op that it's not worth risking it all on possible bacterial vectors. Especially considering the amount of spawn necessary for a farm, it's really not very much. By the time you're needing 200lbs of spawn, a $3-5k autoclave can be budgeted.
For perspective, 16lbs of spawn (which can be cooked in one run of a 925 autoclave) can generate more than 100lbs of mushrooms.
I mean I don't post stuff on here generally for security reasons but have been feeling more inclined to do so. I don't really care to flex what I do on the internet. You don't need to believe me if you don't want to lol. I don't need the validation.
The 55 gal fits around 70 2.5L bags of grain. When I was partnering with a friend that had the 80 gal bubbas barrel it fit about 110.. I have seen a significant decrease in loss going up to 36 hours and the grains and fruits produce just as well.
The reason for the autoclave is faster turn around. The Chinese ones that reach 30psi can cycle very quickly and be re loaded. Vs the long af cook times of a steamer barrel type setup. They simply weren't as widespread when we made our purchases in the past and have now gotten more reviews to where we would feel more comfortable making the purchase. We're only doing 35/ 40LB of cubes a month right now. Thats running the steamer once a week. And prices are super low / overhead super high... that's why we're avoiding large equipment purchases for the time being... I already owe my business partner 5k... my other partner owes him like 2k... shits not selling because the organized crime groups in California driving the prices super low...
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deadmandave
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Its not about flexing but sharing of information so we can all learn something. That being said, anyone can type "atmospheric steam sterilization works, i do it all the time. yall just aint cooking long enough" but if you were to show the evidence it would be more persuasive. Grain prep in atmospheric conditions has been looked over many times and no one has posted and conclusive evidence that it works anywhere near as consistently as temps in the 250f range.
i'd like to see what your grains look like before fruiting, what the fruits look like and how much yield you get. this all might be moot because youre growing cubes and we be talking about gourmet.
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Stromrider
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The race to the bottom with bulk cube prices happened so incredibly fast. I've known it was coming for a couple of years but I didn't see it happening that fast
About the atmospheric steaming of grains I'll just quote Johnny Cash, "you can run on for a long time but sooner or later God is gonna cut you down" I've seen this play out many times now.
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cornwallacediggler
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: Stromrider] 3
#28533372 - 11/07/23 07:24 PM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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It's been working out for me for years now. I had losses in the past that were significant but now it's very minimal. I'll post some more pictures in a week or so when I have more mature fruits and have more fully colonized spawn. Sorry for being sketched out about posting stuff online. This is also only a portion of my un colonized fruiting bags in the pic of multiple racks... To reply to the part about it being a moot point because it's cubes... edibles are pretty much all more aggressive than cubes and if it works for cubes then there's no doubt it works for edibles.
Also, have you guys never seen videos from southeast Asia and other developing parts of the world where they use barrel steamers over wood fires or propane to sterilize spawn? They don't even have flowhoods and grow pounds and pounds of edibles on a commercial scale.. there's plenty of videos on YouTube.








Edited by cornwallacediggler (11/07/23 08:02 PM)
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deadmandave
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Thanks for posting pics. Looks pretty good honestly.
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cornwallacediggler
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave] 2
#28533547 - 11/07/23 09:17 PM (2 months, 18 days ago) |
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Thanks. I get that I probably came off like a bullshitter lol. This isn't even a good example of our spawn, it's the leftover from the fruiting bags we already made. I prep my sub in specific amounts and I don't have enough ready to do a batch yet. I will in about a week though. Just loaded another sterilizer right as I took that pic earlier. There is for sure a noticeable difference between doing 24 , 30 and 36 hours of having the sterilizer plugged in. I think 36 is the sweet spot. It also requires prepping the grain to be very dry on the outside while still properly plump and hydrated. The sterilizers work great for grain prep too. I pre boil water with 4 PC bases on 2 propane 2 burner camp stoves twice and pour into the sterilizer and turn the element on. I fit 22.5 gal of wheat into 4 to 6 pillow cases, then I let soak in the water filled sterilizer for an hour 15 mins, drain , dry over night rotating a few times which yields the 70 10T bags. This batch came out just under 70 ..
Edited by cornwallacediggler (11/07/23 11:25 PM)
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SupaThaRipper
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Quote:
cornwallacediggler said: Thanks. I get that I probably came off like a bullshitter lol. This isn't even a good example of our spawn, it's the leftover from the fruiting bags we already made. I prep my sub in specific amounts and I don't have enough ready to do a batch yet. I will in about a week though. Just loaded another sterilizer right as I took that pic earlier. There is for sure a noticeable difference between doing 24 , 30 and 36 hours of having the sterilizer plugged in. I think 36 is the sweet spot. It also requires prepping the grain to be very dry on the outside while still properly plump and hydrated. The sterilizers work great for grain prep too. I pre boil water with 4 PC bases on 2 propane 2 burner camp stoves twice and pour into the sterilizer and turn the element on. I fit 22.5 gal of wheat into 4 to 6 pillow cases, then I let soak in the water filled sterilizer for an hour 15 mins, drain , dry over night rotating a few times which yields the 70 10T bags. This batch came out just under 70 ..
Man I really like this!
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mushboy
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: SupaThaRipper]
#28537870 - 11/10/23 09:49 PM (2 months, 15 days ago) |
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l0wbob
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: mushboy] 1
#28537955 - 11/10/23 11:13 PM (2 months, 15 days ago) |
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Nice to see that someone is really doing the 0 PSI sterilization.
When I was creating my post from the signature (venting your pressure cooker) I just looked at the mathematical equation and saw that I is indeed possible. It will just increase the time you need to hold the temperature.
To be honest I just thought it might be way to time and energy consuming that you would do that on a larger scale (I was rly thinking about the volume of a 23 quart presto). Seeing that you run a whole barrel in that way makes me wonder how long it takes so the core temperature of these thick bags will reach your holding temperature. From the equation it seems possible that you could even get away with "just" around 1150 Minutes of 0 PSI.
So how long does it take to head that barrel up?
-------------------- +++ Forrest Information Collection +++ Why you should ALWAYS vent your PC +++ 🅃 🄴 🄰 🄼 🄶 🅁 🄰 🄵 🅃 🄸 🄽 🄶 🅃 🄰 🄿 🄴
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cornwallacediggler
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: l0wbob]
#28538602 - 11/11/23 11:47 AM (2 months, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
l0wbob said: Nice to see that someone is really doing the 0 PSI sterilization.
When I was creating my post from the signature (venting your pressure cooker) I just looked at the mathematical equation and saw that I is indeed possible. It will just increase the time you need to hold the temperature.
To be honest I just thought it might be way to time and energy consuming that you would do that on a larger scale (I was rly thinking about the volume of a 23 quart presto). Seeing that you run a whole barrel in that way makes me wonder how long it takes so the core temperature of these thick bags will reach your holding temperature. From the equation it seems possible that you could even get away with "just" around 1150 Minutes of 0 PSI.
So how long does it take to head that barrel up?
It takes a while, I can get a probe to read about 210 to 212 (max temp at 0psi) at around 10hrs from my memory, I dont even use probes anymore though. You definitely need a long time to get it properly sterilized. Like I was saying I've done lots of different run times and 36hrs seems to be the sweet spot. That's with a 1500w element at 120v though, if one were to use a higher wattage element you could reduce that time for sure.
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deadmandave
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Is that just the temp in the barrel or in the center of a bag?
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cornwallacediggler
atmospheric steam specialist



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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave]
#28538657 - 11/11/23 12:21 PM (2 months, 15 days ago) |
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I mean it's the probe in the middle of the stack. It takes way longer for all the grain to actually get there though which is why I run it for so long.
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l0wbob
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Quote:
cornwallacediggler said:
It takes a while, I can get a probe to read about 210 to 212 (max temp at 0psi) at around 10hrs from my memory, I dont even use probes anymore though. You definitely need a long time to get it properly sterilized. Like I was saying I've done lots of different run times and 36hrs seems to be the sweet spot. That's with a 1500w element at 120v though, if one were to use a higher wattage element you could reduce that time for sure.
To be honest it sounds like a dream to just set and forget this amount of spawn and come back 36h later and you are basically done with grain 'for a while'
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Kinoko314
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: l0wbob]
#28538704 - 11/11/23 12:58 PM (2 months, 15 days ago) |
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It's not a bad way to go if you're growing a fuckton of shroomies. That quantity is so over the top for your average shroomery grower.
36 hours seems to make a lot of sense. About 12 to heat up and 24 more to fully sterilize.
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Stromrider
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: Kinoko314]
#28538988 - 11/11/23 04:23 PM (2 months, 15 days ago) |
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I dont know about large scale cube production but you'll have endless problems trying to do this with gourmets. It's been tried over and over by many people. Saying gourmet spawn is more aggressive therefore would be easier to do this way is a fallacy i also once believed
I made literal tons of cube spawn before I ever got into commercial gourmet production and rarely had any issues. Cubes grow like weeds. They don't give much of a fuck. Quality gourmet spawn is much harder to achieve
The problem you'll have to face with these long cooks is not lack of sterilization but over cooked grains. You'll completely caramelize the sugars in the grain making it where the mycelium cant completely colonize or digest it causing a lot of bacteria issues down the line. Usually showing up after you've Inoculated your ultra pasturized substrate. Sometimes even leaving wet looking uncolonized areas in the spawn but not always.
I would never recommend this method for gourmet spawn or even cube spawn but do what thy wilt
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deadmandave
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: Stromrider]
#28539869 - 11/12/23 08:17 AM (2 months, 14 days ago) |
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Interesting. I never understood the caramelized sugars bit or what kind of problems it creates. I honestly thought it slowed down colonization but didn't know it could lead to bacterial growth.
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Stromrider
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave] 1
#28540038 - 11/12/23 10:28 AM (2 months, 14 days ago) |
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Don't quote me on this but I think what happens is you have bits of grains that can't be colonized leaving vectors in the bulk substrate. I'm no expert, I've just seen a lot of people go down this road over the years and they always end up back to the autoclave after a lot of headaches and losses
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cornwallacediggler
atmospheric steam specialist



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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave]
#28540067 - 11/12/23 10:44 AM (2 months, 14 days ago) |
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Well, I used to run PCs of bags as well atmospherically steam sterilize and noticed no difference in speed of growth. These guys have a video about their really nice stainless steep atmospheric steamer that they use for spawn on a large scale for edibles. They clearly grow a lot and even sell spawn.
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deadmandave
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That dude is selling spawn and "sterile" grain bags but not sure hes actually fruiting anything. Personally i'd much rather buy from someone using a pressurized vessel rather than atmospheric.
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SupaThaRipper
Genetics Hoarder



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Quote:
cornwallacediggler said: Well, I used to run PCs of bags as well atmospherically steam sterilize and noticed no difference in speed of growth. These guys have a video about their really nice stainless steep atmospheric steamer that they use for spawn on a large scale for edibles. They clearly grow a lot and even sell spawn.
Seriously thinking I’m going to fuck around with this and find out. Stainless would be dope but sounds pricey! Maybe I’ll mess around with a recycled drum first and see how it goes. You running 220 on yours as well and is yours all fully automated as well like theirs? Seems a little overkill but truly set and forget would be cool. But I also would not be leaving the vicinity while this thing is running either. So I think you can get by without that. I might do a test setup with one of those smaller 20 gallon drums. I actually have a couple of those on hand right now. I’ll run it 120 though with a steel 5 gallon water reservoir for starters. I have a lot of left over materials from my bulk pasteurizer that i didn’t care for anyways.
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cornwallacediggler
atmospheric steam specialist



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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: SupaThaRipper]
#28540772 - 11/12/23 07:02 PM (2 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
SupaThaRipper said:
Quote:
cornwallacediggler said: Well, I used to run PCs of bags as well atmospherically steam sterilize and noticed no difference in speed of growth. These guys have a video about their really nice stainless steep atmospheric steamer that they use for spawn on a large scale for edibles. They clearly grow a lot and even sell spawn.
Seriously thinking I’m going to fuck around with this and find out. Stainless would be dope but sounds pricey! Maybe I’ll mess around with a recycled drum first and see how it goes. You running 220 on yours as well and is yours all fully automated as well like theirs? Seems a little overkill but truly set and forget would be cool. But I also would not be leaving the vicinity while this thing is running either. So I think you can get by without that. I might do a test setup with one of those smaller 20 gallon drums. I actually have a couple of those on hand right now. I’ll run it 120 though with a steel 5 gallon water reservoir for starters. I have a lot of left over materials from my bulk pasteurizer that i didn’t care for anyways.
I just use a use a regular food grade barrel. Stainless is super expensive but worth it if you have the money. I also use a regular 120v element. The dernord ones are the best. There's some videos by multiple people that make these on YouTube in differentways. I have mine set up as an all in one, I don't have a separate boiler and just have a false bottom made from cinder blocks and a weber grill grate. I also have a stainless float valve to keep water at the right level.
Quote:
That dude is selling spawn and "sterile" grain bags but not sure hes actually fruiting anything. Personally i'd much rather buy from someone using a pressurized vessel rather than atmospheric.
He's got an IG , he definitely fruits stuff. Probably a lot more than you lol. I get you can't be persuaded and no longer care to try. Go ahead and die on your hill while I chill over here atop my mountain of dried fruits. The naysayers have been giving us some laughs over here.
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deadmandave
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To each their own.
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Stromrider
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave]
#28544395 - 11/15/23 06:18 PM (2 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
deadmandave said: That dude is selling spawn and "sterile" grain bags but not sure hes actually fruiting anything. Personally i'd much rather buy from someone using a pressurized vessel rather than atmospheric.
I just watched that video and wtf. That guy is a complete clown. He said low and slow is what you want for grain sterilization 
The exact opposite is true. That's why all the legit commercial spawn producers are spending a quarter of a million bucks on these huge vacuum retorts. Anytime I get a couple bags of spawn from Maine cap and stem I'm always so jealous of how the mycelium looks on their grain. You can leave an oyster bag of theirs sitting colonized for a couple weeks and it never gets wet looking. It's because of the short time they're at temp and rolled into the lab to cool. That's some happy mycelium
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cornwallacediggler
atmospheric steam specialist



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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: Stromrider] 1
#28550757 - 11/20/23 07:43 PM (2 months, 6 days ago) |
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Yeah I mean I don't agree with the temps... but they aren't the only people doing atmospheric steam sterilization. My spawn is doing great by the way lol. I just used a bunch of it today, here's what's left that's finished. Got plenty of half way done and just inoculated spawn on top of this. Have fun repeatedly loading your PCs. My weekly run has been doing me really nicely for a while now.
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SupaThaRipper
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I’m having fun repeatedly loading my PCs 😢 😂
Why does the top of the grain spawn bag colonize so damn slow. That shit drives me crazy. Anything to do to get around that?
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cornwallacediggler
atmospheric steam specialist



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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: SupaThaRipper]
#28551024 - 11/21/23 02:38 AM (2 months, 5 days ago) |
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Tbh I'm not sure but I'll honestly just shake it up amd use it anyways if it's had time to internally consolidate and the top isn't done. I've also wiped the uncolored grain off before using, that's what I used to do fearing contaminated but haven't noticed an issue just shaking em and using them if it's just a tiny bit on the top.
Edited by cornwallacediggler (11/21/23 07:59 PM)
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SupaThaRipper
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I’ve turned the bags on their side to help(and it does) but I don’t have the room all the time for all that lol
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Stromrider
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: SupaThaRipper]
#28551581 - 11/21/23 01:28 PM (2 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
SupaThaRipper said: I’m having fun repeatedly loading my PCs 😢 😂
Why does the top of the grain spawn bag colonize so damn slow. That shit drives me crazy. Anything to do to get around that?
That's from the grains on top drying out. If you get your grain more thoroughly hydrated it will help. It also helps to wait until the bag is about 50 to 60 percent colonized then shake.
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SupaThaRipper
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: Stromrider]
#28551784 - 11/21/23 04:11 PM (2 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
Stromrider said:
That's from the grains on top drying out. If you get your grain more thoroughly hydrated it will help. It also helps to wait until the bag is about 50 to 60 percent colonized then shake.
Thank you! I’m thinking I should boil it a little longer then and wait a little longer to shake too
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cornwallacediggler
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: Stromrider]
#28552042 - 11/21/23 08:00 PM (2 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
Stromrider said:
Quote:
SupaThaRipper said: I’m having fun repeatedly loading my PCs 😢 😂
Why does the top of the grain spawn bag colonize so damn slow. That shit drives me crazy. Anything to do to get around that?
That's from the grains on top drying out. If you get your grain more thoroughly hydrated it will help. It also helps to wait until the bag is about 50 to 60 percent colonized then shake.
That's what my suspicion has been. I keep my spawn and fruiting bags in the same room amd I have fans going in there which is likely the culprit. I don't get it on most bags though.
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Markamello
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Impressive. I fucked around with atmospheric sterilising for almost 2 years. Tried a polly Barellan than forked out for stainless. I think the maximum I run it was 24 hours. It never worked for me. I could get bags colonised and looking contam free but would end up with a sea of green going tubbing to bulk substrate. I think I could have got the results if I fruited in bags but it was going to require to much atmospheric control with temp and humidity in a fruiting space.
Can you go to bulk substrate/coir with the barrel sterilised bags?
In the end I invested in 2 x AA75x and run pre sealed bags. A lot more work but things have stayed consistently good for me.
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cornwallacediggler
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: Markamello] 1
#28558847 - 11/27/23 08:30 PM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
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Oh you can totally do tubs with these atmospherically steamed bags, that's what I did for about 5 years. I only started bags like a year ago. I used to do 24hr cooks amd still had success. What I will say is that it's stillwprth it to pasteurize CVG substrate, I do. I see way less contams that way. Especially if you buy loose coco bricks in bulk that are un wrapped. There's still Hella mold spores on the surface of the bricks even of they don't grow on it and boiling water ain't gonna kill them all. I saw a huge difference in reduction of cantams when I switched over to doing that, I was having issues with mold before. I use wallpaper steamers pumped into big coolers with a wire shelving rack shelf inside to elevate the pillowcases full of sub from the pooling water. I steam them for 4hrs and let cool 20+ hrs. You need to dial your moisture content when prepping the coir doing this though, you need to use less water than a normal bucket tek because the steam adds moisture.
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deadmandave
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you can super pasteurize coir as well. load coir and water in a bag, cook for 24 hours like you would masters mix. your good to inoculate once they are cool.
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cornwallacediggler
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave]
#28578502 - 12/11/23 12:21 PM (1 month, 16 days ago) |
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You don't need to do it for that long though. The barrels tale forever to heat so I prefer the 4hr wallpaper steamer tek. Using pillow cases this also allows the coir to get nicely steamed and increase moisture content. I've noticed big differences with different amounts of water used. There's definitely a sweet spot. Especially using bags to fruit in.
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deadmandave
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You can easily calculate the ideal moisture content. Ime it's 5:1 water:coir. Very repeatable in a steamer. Doesn't matter if it takes 6 hrs to reach temp imo, turn it on and don't think about it until it's time to unload.
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cornwallacediggler
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave]
#28587631 - 12/18/23 01:21 AM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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I've done a lot of experimentation... if it's loaded into pillowcases then more moisture is introduced. Changing the ratio has yielded very different results, which I've tracked and noted. Trust me, when you've run over 1000 bags in the same room at the same time, using a variety of different moisture contents, temperatures, and steam times, you can see a difference. Even right now , I just bought a new pallet of coir bricks that preps differently then the last one we purchased elsewhere. The same weight of coir is yielding quite a bit more bags than before because this new stuff is more fluffy and fibrous and less ground up / dusty like the last batch. We've had to adjust our moisture content. Using the same as before yielded a much more dry substrate than we had before.
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wtfcrazymofo
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Quote:
cornwallacediggler said: url=https://files.shroomery.org/files/23-47/053453447-20231120_183524.jpg] [/url]
some of those do look slightly bacterial. does anyone have a good link to one of those Chinese autoclaves?
-------------------- If you want to eat->https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541 Bag sealers are to bulky (my hood isn't that big) https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28622922
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MorePies
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: wtfcrazymofo]
#28599145 - 12/26/23 09:16 PM (1 month, 22 hours ago) |
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As I understand it and have experienced ...
Molds and their spores are killed/neutralized at relatively low temperatures, 135-155f. Bacterial endospore can survive much higher temperatures and are MOSTLY neutralized via atmospheric steaming.
I would guess that the species you are growing runs over bacteria well and you end substrate has almost no nutrition in it. I mean, you could use hot tap water on coir and be OK. So, what works for you ends up being a time bomb for the less aggressive gourmet strains being grown on rich substrates.
For anyone trying to run and scale a business, 36 hour cooks are a huge cost in utilities and time for your equipment to be tied up. I can get 3 sterilization cycles through a 150L per work day. That said, it's your business and life, make of it what you will.
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tedoro
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: MorePies]
#28615414 - 01/09/24 03:32 PM (18 days, 4 hours ago) |
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Interesting convo. I did side by side comparisons of steamer vs presto 23, 4 lb bags of wbs... for months last year... because I was so skeptical. The steamer (a plastic barrel with a 1500 watt 120v element) worked great. 20 hours. My prestos have been collecting dust ever since. Then I made a steamer out of a cheap steel drum, and I started having contams. Then I realized the plastic barrel was more insulating. I upped my time to 25 hours and all is well again.
A few things I learned:
Small grains are better with the long run times.
I found if an element was ever turned off, the barrel would immediately suck in room air, which hinders heat conducting into the bags. So I never turn the element off. I make sure there is space around each bag, and keep them from touching the external wall. 25 4lb bags.
I have 12 gallons of water in the 55 drum. I have a copper condensing coil circling downward externally from the top, then re-introduce the condensed water into the drum. I lose little water.
RR once spoke of steamers somewhere here on the forum. He said that a raging steam is more powerful than a low simmering boil steam. With that sentiment, I installed a second element (1000watts) which I run for 7 hours along side the 1500watt at the beginning of the run. I get the top bags internal temp up to 211-212 in 4.5 hours that way.
I always pre-seal my bags.
Nursing my PC's was my least favorite part of this hobby. This steamer is kinda my favorite part now. I am of the belief that steaming like this barely sterilizes the grain. I'm a one flush and done guy, so if shit gets a little weird in the 2nd and 3rd flush, I don't really care, my sub shot its load on the first flush... its in the trash by then.
I will add that I discovered that fermented grains in my slow and lazy workflow (leaving wet grains in bags at 100f for hours) could completely stop colonization, even after sterilization (a known fact). So I work to keep those fermenting temps to a minimum. Cold soaked grains, loaded into a preheated and raging boiling steamer. They still are gross warm for a few hours... but I'm colonizing bags in 8 days with a wedge of agar... so things seem just good enough.
Now, if I could just find an off the shelf outlet timer with a 36hour setting that doesn't melt under the stress of a 1500watt element. I've melted three so far, that were rated for 1800watts. Now I just turn it off myself, in person. Good thing is the steamer will never run dry.
-------------------- -------------------- Deep pour soft agar plates-->bags of WBS-->Low Profile Monos Clean spawn thread | Put a thermometer on your PC
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tedoro
ToadStool Tender



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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave]
#28615425 - 01/09/24 03:47 PM (18 days, 3 hours ago) |
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Quote:
For perspective, 16lbs of spawn (which can be cooked in one run of a 925 autoclave) can generate more than 100lbs of mushrooms.
So with cubes (all I know), four, 4lb bags of grain spawn... a bag in a mono would make 25 lbs of wet cubes? I gotta learn your secrets. Are there culinary shrooms that, when mixed with a ton of straw or something can yield that?
-------------------- -------------------- Deep pour soft agar plates-->bags of WBS-->Low Profile Monos Clean spawn thread | Put a thermometer on your PC
Edited by tedoro (01/09/24 03:48 PM)
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deadmandave
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: tedoro]
#28615538 - 01/09/24 05:30 PM (18 days, 2 hours ago) |
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Cubes are so different. Cubes are growing in coir which has almost zero nutrients. It's a sponge and a place to expand but not much else. The grains give almost all the nutes.
Gourmets eat wood, the substrate is sawdust and soy hulls. It's highly nutritious. It contams more easily but also provides a shitload of resources for the fungi to produce mushrooms. Using supplements, spawn rates can be 1% and still achieve huge yield.
I like what you're doing but for everyone reading this be aware that steamed grains into a nutrient dense substrate is not the same as putting those grains in coir.
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tedoro
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave]
#28615670 - 01/09/24 07:49 PM (17 days, 23 hours ago) |
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I completely agree. I feel like I am barely making it work.
-------------------- -------------------- Deep pour soft agar plates-->bags of WBS-->Low Profile Monos Clean spawn thread | Put a thermometer on your PC
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Markamello
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: deadmandave]
#28617173 - 01/11/24 04:32 AM (16 days, 15 hours ago) |
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Quote:
deadmandave said: I like what you're doing but for everyone reading this be aware that steamed grains into a nutrient dense substrate is not the same as putting those grains in coir.
Am I understanding correctly that steamed grains will not perform with cubes being put to coir?
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deadmandave
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: Markamello] 1
#28617462 - 01/11/24 10:25 AM (16 days, 9 hours ago) |
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I'm trying to say that steamed grains don't work very well for gourmets.
Others in this thread are using steamed grains into coir for cubes with success.
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cornwallacediggler
atmospheric steam specialist



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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: wtfcrazymofo]
#28630621 - 01/22/24 02:49 AM (5 days, 16 hours ago) |
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Quote:
wtfcrazymofo said:
Quote:
cornwallacediggler said: url=https://files.shroomery.org/files/23-47/053453447-20231120_183524.jpg] [/url]
some of those do look slightly bacterial. does anyone have a good link to one of those Chinese autoclaves?
Those aren't the best example of what we're doing here tbh. It's the ones we fruited last and some are also not done colonizing.
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cornwallacediggler
atmospheric steam specialist



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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: MorePies]
#28630623 - 01/22/24 02:57 AM (5 days, 16 hours ago) |
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Quote:
MorePies said: As I understand it and have experienced ...
Molds and their spores are killed/neutralized at relatively low temperatures, 135-155f. Bacterial endospore can survive much higher temperatures and are MOSTLY neutralized via atmospheric steaming.
I would guess that the species you are growing runs over bacteria well and you end substrate has almost no nutrition in it. I mean, you could use hot tap water on coir and be OK. So, what works for you ends up being a time bomb for the less aggressive gourmet strains being grown on rich substrates.
For anyone trying to run and scale a business, 36 hour cooks are a huge cost in utilities and time for your equipment to be tied up. I can get 3 sterilization cycles through a 150L per work day. That said, it's your business and life, make of it what you will.
I run my sterilizer 1x a week usually. My power consumption costs mostly come from running heaters to keep my fruiting room in the 70s. I would love an autoclave but theyre not that cheap and what i have is working just fine. Shits rough right now. No lack of product... definitely a lack of sales though. If that changes we will probably upgrade at some point.
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Stromrider
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I'm glad I got out of large scale cube production and into the gourmet side of things when I did. I have friends that are still in it and no matter what part of the country it's tough. I'm hearing a lot of low demand and a race to the bottom on pricing for bulk loads. I'm not doing all that work and taking all that risk for 350 to 400 a lb! Fuck that. We ran hard for years at 700 a lb and it made sense. By the time you factor in your labor, risk, and overhead nothing under 500 makes sense to me
Greedy weed growers in California switching over to huge mushroom grows and flooding the market. It's a race to the bottom
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trippleblack
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: Stromrider]
#28630947 - 01/22/24 11:27 AM (5 days, 8 hours ago) |
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no boil works the same with gourmet.. however i don't grow nearly as many gourmet as i do actives, but i am always growing gourmet.
for the guys doing no boil.. i strongly suggest you soak the grain in the water and bag you are about to sterilize with for 12 - 16 hours prior. Right before you sterilize, shake the container to distribute the wet grains evenly. -try this out, i promise you won't have 'dry spots' / or hidden bacteria / ect.
i have ran thousands of bags with no boil.
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spasm666
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Re: Large scale grain prep for grain spawn? [Re: MorePies]
#28632057 - 01/23/24 11:39 AM (4 days, 8 hours ago) |
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Quote:
MorePies said:For anyone trying to run and scale a business, 36 hour cooks are a huge cost in utilities and time for your equipment to be tied up. I can get 3 sterilization cycles through a 150L per work day. That said, it's your business and life, make of it what you will.
Sorry if I offtopic but I'm really interested in this as I'm thinking about buying an autoclave. You can do 3 runs on a single day, does this mean you unload the bags very hot and put them to your lab to cool down? Or is there a cooling function (including intaking air or something like that?) in the autoclaves?
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