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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,127
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How do you prove the paranormal?
#28510517 - 10/19/23 01:10 PM (3 months, 8 days ago) |
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I have experienced the paranormal crystal clear, ergo the evidence is there, but how to prove?
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton]
#28510525 - 10/19/23 01:14 PM (3 months, 8 days ago) |
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Submit your evidence.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,127
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Rahz]
#28510527 - 10/19/23 01:16 PM (3 months, 8 days ago) |
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The evidence is me.
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VP123
Strange



Registered: 06/27/19
Posts: 1,341
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 9 days, 19 hours
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton]
#28510537 - 10/19/23 01:21 PM (3 months, 8 days ago) |
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In the scientific method other people should be able to reproduce your experiences or results. Otherwise it is subjective not objective.
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,127
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: VP123]
#28510551 - 10/19/23 01:28 PM (3 months, 8 days ago) |
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Is it not possible being trustworthy enough?
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton]
#28510555 - 10/19/23 01:29 PM (3 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Pinkerton said: The evidence is me.
Can you pull a rabbit out of a hat?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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VP123
Strange



Registered: 06/27/19
Posts: 1,341
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 9 days, 19 hours
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton] 1
#28510584 - 10/19/23 01:43 PM (3 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Pinkerton said: Is it not possible being trustworthy enough?
What if the experience is due to mental illness or the effect of drugs? The most logical explanation would be hallucinations rather than the existence of the paranormal. How can we distinguish one from the other? Being trustworthy enough could be, and it is used, all the time as an argument to commit frauds.
If you claim to have especial faculties like ESP you could be subjected to tests to see if what you can perceive is better than randomly guessing. There are statistical tools to measure that.
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,127
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: VP123]
#28510596 - 10/19/23 01:48 PM (3 months, 8 days ago) |
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Being trustworthy enough could be, and it is used, all the time as an argument to commit frauds.
Then you are not trustworthy enough.
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VP123
Strange



Registered: 06/27/19
Posts: 1,341
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 9 days, 19 hours
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton]
#28510604 - 10/19/23 01:54 PM (3 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Pinkerton said: Being trustworthy enough could be, and it is used, all the time as an argument to commit frauds.
Then you are not trustworthy enough.
The burden is not on me since I am not making claims that cannot be independently verified.
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,127
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: VP123]
#28510608 - 10/19/23 01:57 PM (3 months, 8 days ago) |
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I never said you did.
Read the bold part in my post.
Edited by Pinkerton (10/19/23 01:58 PM)
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VP123
Strange



Registered: 06/27/19
Posts: 1,341
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 9 days, 19 hours
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton]
#28510624 - 10/19/23 02:11 PM (3 months, 8 days ago) |
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Ok my bad. I shouldn't be trusted. We agree on that. For that particular reason, any claims made should be independently verified.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: VP123]
#28510699 - 10/19/23 03:15 PM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
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btw, para normal is not the same as ab normal, so there is that.
how would you prove ab normal
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,683
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton]
#28510742 - 10/19/23 03:45 PM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
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All scientific discovery should be preoccupied with the paranormal, except it is a captive industry.
The problem is that you are trying deprogram a commissar of his Pavlovian training.
You can offer substitutions, within their ingrained value system, but not cause them to go against brute instinct without causing some kind of nerve damage.
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,127
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RGVs can attest to my paranormal claims.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: durian_2008]
#28510870 - 10/19/23 05:54 PM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
durian_2008 said: All scientific discovery should be preoccupied with the paranormal, except it is a captive industry. ...
I find that quite a bit of scientific evidence presented in experiments does not mean what the experimenter thinks it means. this is pretty hallucinatory.
and yeah, pinky is para
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
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Ultimately I am a big proponent of the idea that 'Seeing is believing'.. with regards to paranormal behavior..
If you are IN the occult if you ARE initiated there is only time to take before you experience this with another person..
You can belive without seeing..
But ultimately I will play the 'Proof is in the pudding' card.
1. You experience a paranormal event.
2. You attempt to show or share with another person a paranormal event.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#28511336 - 10/20/23 03:49 AM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
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such as, from personal experience, which paranormal event might you mean?
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
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Last seen: 2 days, 13 hours
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Synchronicities.
Magic tricks..
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,683
Loc: Raccoon City
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I believe that mystical and superstitious circumstances are governed by rules of their own, so are scientific.
But, most, common everyday materialists will go through different forms of blindness, amnesia, and shock when face-to-face with some stimulus, which they consider to be irrational or traumatic.
Quote:
John Hetherington is a presumed apocryphal English haberdasher, often credited as the inventor of the top hat, which is said to have caused a riot when he first wore it in public on 15 January 1797.
The common form of the story, as reproduced in many books, has it that he was arraigned before the Lord Mayor on 15 January 1797 on a charge of breach of the peace and inciting a riot, and was required to post a £500 bond (equivalent to £55,090 in 2021). Reportedly he had "appeared on the public highway wearing upon his head what he called a silk hat (which was shiny lustre and calculated to frighten timid people)" and the officers of the Crown stated that "several women fainted at the unusual sight, while children screamed, dogs yelped and a younger son of Cordwainer Thomas was thrown down by the crowd which collected and had his right arm broken".
Cats vs Cucumbers Compilation
I maintain that what is typically called supernatural can be perceived through the five ordinary senses and can be explained in English, by a skilled-enough speaker to patient-enough listener.
Further, every new discovery made by the 'materialists' was para-normal, before becoming normalized.
It amounts to a processing disorder and a failure to communicate.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,683
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: durian_2008]
#28511725 - 10/20/23 12:30 PM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
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You prove the paranormal through stress hygiene, the classical unities, and popularity contests.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: durian_2008]
#28512115 - 10/20/23 04:46 PM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
Further, every new discovery made by the 'materialists' was para-normal, before becoming normalized.
That's a fair point, normal things can seem para-normal but not be. One could make a reasonable assumption that anything which can be perceived with ordinary senses is normal whether understood or not. A caveat would be that appearances and knowledge can be deceiving especially when it comes to humans.
This would be in contrast to claims that offer nothing for the senses. I can see lightning and decide for myself if it's normal. I can't see ghosts. My only knowledge of ghosts comes from claims others have made. Same for many other paranormal claims.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,683
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Rahz]
#28512125 - 10/20/23 04:56 PM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
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There are tangible, physical objects, in your immediate surroundings, that you are unconsciously ignoring, right now.
Under the correct drugs or hypnosis, you could tell me what they are, in fine detail.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: durian_2008]
#28512251 - 10/20/23 06:55 PM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
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maybe
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: durian_2008]
#28512315 - 10/20/23 08:14 PM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
durian_2008 said: There are tangible, physical objects, in your immediate surroundings, that you are unconsciously ignoring, right now.
Sure. There are hundreds of objects in the room I'm in and I'm not consciously aware of them until they become the subject of thought.
You are suggesting a similarity between them and paranormal entities? There could be a ghost in the room and I'm not consciously aware of it because I'm tuning it out?
I have seen all the other physical objects in the room before. Either that, or that they can be seen is part of the cause to become aware of them.
The reasonable assumption is that there are no ghosts in the room. That doesn't mean it's a true assumption but I would need some reason other than a claim that ghosts exists to consider it. That's the point. I'm not saying I know for a fact there are no ghosts, I simply don't believe in them.
Humans are capable of hallucinating. Tangible physical objects can be seen by anyone. Tangible entities (like humans) are capable of traveling to NY and doing an interview with Jimmy Fallon.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Rahz]
#28512343 - 10/20/23 08:32 PM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
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to further what Rahz has said. we are not normally aware of anything we are not thinking of. In fact the two phrases are virtually synonymous and both are about the mental contents at the moment.
so if we are stoned or not, if we are being aware of our surroundings more than what was on our minds a few minutes ago, then we are more connected than we otherwise would have been, this is more about an attitude or personality habit of being aware of where we are, how our body is in space now etc.
How we sense and perceive things when stoned, however, is more temporally plastic, our thinking stretches, folds, stacks up and basically out silly's silly putty if we push it.
At this point, it is less about the surrounds, than it is about what the mind is up to.
Anyway it is normal to be silly, not paranormal. and it is also normal to spook yourself and to want to hide or get others to verify.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,683
Loc: Raccoon City
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: get others to verify.
irl, there is a cadre of likeminded people doing it -- like illicit sex, drugs, or whatever weird genre of music or media or food scene.
It is not foisted upon the disinterested, the potentially hostile, or those who are blind to it.
Someone who you think is unrelateable is able to gauge you and do it in your face. 
No one is particularly asking to be validated.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: durian_2008]
#28512882 - 10/21/23 11:21 AM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
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from the NYTimes today, https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/01/reader-center/april-fools-day-a-stranger-times.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article Describing the ancient rite of changing a billy goat into a young man.
Witches have frequented the Brocken ever since man can remember. The smallest boy hereabouts can tell you that.
Even Goethe, in his “Faust,” recognized that this was a place where no ordinary things happened. He wrote:
“The witches on the Brocken sail, The shoot is green, The stubble’s pale, And high above them thrones Old Nick.”
As prescribed by the old rite, the goat was led into the magic circle by a silver cord. After it had been anointed a white sheet was thrown over it. All the proper abracadabra was intoned. Then, in a weird monotone, Harry Price, director of the National Laboratory of Psychical Research, London, boomed “One.”
With just the proper pauses he counted to ten.
A hundred or so spectators, huddled in overcoats to protect them from the swirling mists, looked on in breathless silence.
The maiden pure in heart whisked off the white sheet.
And there stood the billygoat.
The spectators applauded heartily and the investigators said they were satisfied.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,683
Loc: Raccoon City
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Their minds filled in the blank, during the pregnant pause.
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Cory Duchesne
tabernacle


Registered: 10/05/16
Posts: 915
Loc: Nova Scotia
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton]
#28513849 - 10/22/23 08:34 AM (3 months, 5 days ago) |
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Take a photograph of 'it'. I did a spore print a few years ago and photographed the pareidolia. There are some pareidolia's that imply a normality that super or para:
Here's my photograph of the paranormal or super-natural:
&ab_channel=CoryDuchesne
-------------------- C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know." "I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti "All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,683
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: durian_2008]
#28513890 - 10/22/23 09:13 AM (3 months, 5 days ago) |
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If flocks of wild birds fell to the ground, mushrooms suddenly appeared, the bison stampeded at Yellowstone, if ants grew wings, or schools of grunion, whales, and oarfish washed ashore, you might infer some prime mover, strange attractor, or chaos agent outside of the typical range of human perception. One could accuse the neurotypical of having the negative hallucination in response to some scientifically measurable outcome, or it could be considered a schizoid superstition.
Quote:
Guillermo del Toro's Cabinet of Curiosities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillermo_del_Toro's_Cabinet_of_Curiosities
"The Viewing" In 1979, wealthy recluse Lionel Lassiter invites musician Randall Roth, astrophysicist Charlotte Xie (who studies extraterrestrial life), best-selling author Guy Landon, and psychic Targ Reinhhard to his home for a special viewing, intended to help them all expand their consciousness. Flanked by his physician Dr. Zahra, he encourages them all to take a mixture of cocaine and a custom drug made by Zahra, to place them on the same wavelength. He takes them to a secret room containing an otherworldly meteor. The meteor reacts to their collective presence, and they fall into a trance. The meteor cracks open, and an oozing entity emerges. The power emanating from the being melts Targ's face and Zahra's body, explodes Landon's head, and causes Xie and Roth to flee for their lives. The entity melts down and possesses Lassiter's body, stalking the grounds of his home and killing his guard with electricity. Xie and Roth flee by car, stopping eventually to question what occurred. The entity, now merged with Lassiter into a grisly form, enters the sewers, disrupting the electricity of the city with its uncontrolled aura.
For the sake of this short story, they were not being poisoned, together; they are explicitly told that their party favors are non-toxic, as well as being in the presence of a skilled, medical professional.
In spite of the guest's separate career specialties, each of which gave them unique ways of framing the situation, (like the parable of the blind men grasping at the elephant) the common denominator was their fear of the unknown, when viewing the singular, non-descript object.
Had Lassiter not said, "I have seen things that will make you shit your mind, Kemosabe," these artsy guests might just as soon have manifested some rare delicacy, such as they were offered from the very beginning, each from his respective field of knowledge. This artifact is the only obvious advantage held by the eccentric billionaire.
It may be no more evil than the tophat that caused the riot or the cucumber that causes the housecat to panic, depending on how you react to what is unfamiliar to you or if you block it out, altogether.
But, if you see a response like upheaval, you might consider it proof of the unknown.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: durian_2008]
#28514226 - 10/22/23 01:54 PM (3 months, 5 days ago) |
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the unknown does not need to be proven, almost everything is unknown, and everything that will be is unknown yet.
this is about what is paranormal and what is not, and so far every thing is normal - much of it weird but not paranormal i.e. new new laws of physics required
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,127
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So what you are saying is that I did not experience true paranormality? Is the paranormal always scientifically understood?
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,683
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton]
#28514269 - 10/22/23 02:17 PM (3 months, 5 days ago) |
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Someone who performs a paranormal feat is going to cause primal outrage in about 19 out of 20 people and probably some version of amnesia.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton]
#28514300 - 10/22/23 02:39 PM (3 months, 5 days ago) |
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Something paranormal is by definition beyond the range of scientific explanation.
Does this mean it's beyond the range because the science isn't understood or because it's inherently not understandable regardless of what scientific knowledge one has?
For me, something truly paranormal can never be approached by science. That's why I cited lightning.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton]
#28514301 - 10/22/23 02:40 PM (3 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
Pinkerton said: So what you are saying is that I did not experience true paranormality? Is the paranormal always scientifically understood?
no, scientific understanding is very limited, paranormal understanding is even more limited.
people can feel when something is not normal to them. I have no doubt that you are feeling something not normal to you when you say it.
I can't help with getting people who are not you to believe you, but they will eventually accept you as you are.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,683
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Rahz]
#28514306 - 10/22/23 02:41 PM (3 months, 5 days ago) |
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I view 'para' as meaning on the verges of consensus reality.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,683
Loc: Raccoon City
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Quote:
I can't help with getting people who are not you to believe you, but they will eventually accept you as you are.
Snitches, witches, and prophets are dying breeds.
Imagine what this means, where self-knowledge is put on restriction, and status is established through artificial scarcity.
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Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton]
#28514330 - 10/22/23 02:57 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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I had some profound experiences of a religious nature, but I still question them. Someone appeared to me in a dream when I was a kid and told me stuff, they gave me 3 pieces of information about my mother as well and told me to go ask them when I woke up, and told me it would be proof that the dream was legit.
I went to my mom and asked her about the stuff and she swore me to secrecy and admitted the first two things and then told me she would not talk about the third.
To this day the whole thing messes with my head. Could it be genetic memory? I'd like to think so.
But the person also told me stuff about my future, stuff that came true. Did it only come true because they said it would? How can I know?
I'm not convinced of any of it and yet I cannot dismiss it. But proving it to any other person is nigh impossible.
It is also personal in many ways and not really stuff I like talking about. In a way it is intimidating, but I don't worry about it.
I don't have any belief in the supernatural at this point, but I don't rule it out.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,683
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Nillion]
#28514343 - 10/22/23 03:07 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
Could it be genetic memory? I'd like to think so.
What is in one peer review threatens the funding of and tenure of another. Endowments rival small countries. Academics will get so angry over their version of reality, that you will sense adrenaline in the air, and someone's gonna miss a beat.
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Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton] 1
#28514356 - 10/22/23 03:17 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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durian_2008, I don't know if you meant that to be as amusing as I found it, but spot on!
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,683
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Nillion]
#28514369 - 10/22/23 03:30 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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Produce a cucumber out of thin air, and whichever credentialed smart ass is going to jump like a housecat and fill in the lost time with a false memory.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Nillion]
#28514371 - 10/22/23 03:32 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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there is no genetic memory but there are many situations when a baby (or 3 year old) hears stuff and never thinks about it but one day revisits it in a dream, and then while confronting their mother, hears it again for the first time and maybe not at all.
nobody can tell the future.
eg.
what will happen in GAZA? - this is totally up in the air IMO. but if you work for world peace, and if you have any supernatural or paranormal or even just abnormal influence, please give it a go.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,683
Loc: Raccoon City
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There are studies in which worms fed the RNA of other worms can remember their tricks, that assuredly make people of other academic persuasions lose their minds.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,683
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: durian_2008]
#28514379 - 10/22/23 03:38 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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I would go so far as to say, be careful with your contact info as "professionals" have called and yelled at me.
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Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: there is no genetic memory
I've read studies showing genetic memory being passed down by mice and am aware of it happening with plants as well. Some amazing work has been done with Zea showing the gametic transmission of memory.
The idea of genetic memory is not controversial in various Scientific communities, there is quite a lot of evidence supporting the conclusion that it exists.
However, I do have memories that are far earlier than are typical and it is possible that I heard information that I processed later into a dream.
As for the future content, it isn't something I am able to causally dismiss. Nor do I believe that people can predict or tell the future. However I also believe that human perception and knowledge are limited and I want to avoid making any presumptions one way or another, unless they are strongly evinced by measurable evidence.
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Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: durian_2008]
#28514396 - 10/22/23 03:51 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
durian_2008 said: There are studies in which worms fed the RNA of other worms can remember their tricks, that assuredly make people of other academic persuasions lose their minds.
Indeed. Nematodes are kinda amazing as model organisms for all sorts of things.
I might write about my own understanding of such phenomena at some point but will leave that aside for now. I do have some education, both formal and informal and am cautious about claims lacking evidence.
Certainly, however, I do not anticipate being called by anyone, given that I am not among those who own or carry a cellular device!
Edited by Nillion (10/22/23 03:52 PM)
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Nillion]
#28514401 - 10/22/23 03:53 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Nillion]
#28514408 - 10/22/23 03:56 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
Nillion said:
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redgreenvines said: there is no genetic memory
I've read studies showing genetic memory being passed down by mice and am aware of it happening with plants as well. Some amazing work has been done with Zea showing the gametic transmission of memory.
The idea of genetic memory is not controversial in various Scientific communities, there is quite a lot of evidence supporting the conclusion that it exists.
However, I do have memories that are far earlier than are typical and it is possible that I heard information that I processed later into a dream.
As for the future content, it isn't something I am able to causally dismiss. Nor do I believe that people can predict or tell the future. However I also believe that human perception and knowledge are limited and I want to avoid making any presumptions one way or another, unless they are strongly evinced by measurable evidence.
plants don't have memory and not all "peer reviewed" published and reported science is reproduce-able (hence valid), or properly interpreted with mice or with worms or with plants or with people.
we inherit knowledge or memories by storytelling, and mimicry - it's good enough.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



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More than 3,000 mainstream biologists were dismissed or imprisoned, and numerous scientists were executed in the Soviet campaign to suppress scientific opponents. The president of the Soviet Agriculture Academy, Nikolai Vavilov, who had been Lysenko's mentor, but later denounced him, was sent to prison and died there, while Soviet genetics research was effectively destroyed. Research and teaching in the fields of neurophysiology, cell biology, and many other biological disciplines were harmed or banned.
And, I assure you that academics, here and now, become physically aggressive as any witchfinder.
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Nillion
Nobody

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plants don't have memory
I can respect that opinion but do not share it.
Plants exhibit forms of memory very much akin to those of their single celled, motile, photosynthetic aquatic ancestors. It is rather simplistic compared to the complex memory that we exhibit, but remarkable nonetheless and is transmitted via gametes. At some point I will likely share more about this. It is a fascinating topic.
I agree completely about the other point, regarding studies.
Edited by Nillion (10/22/23 04:07 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Nillion]
#28514459 - 10/22/23 04:44 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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single celled creatures do not have memory either. they store their goodies in vacuoles, they don't need no stinkin' memories.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



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Actually, there is discussion regarding whether simple life forms learn without brains.
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redgreenvines
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: durian_2008]
#28514486 - 10/22/23 05:27 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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unlikely for less than a worm, but likely if limited for anything more complex than a worm.
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Nillion
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: durian_2008] 2
#28514492 - 10/22/23 05:32 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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durian_2008 said: Actually, there is discussion regarding whether simple life forms learn without brains.
I think the recent observations about what appears to be apparent consciousness in jellyfish is rather interesting myself. As is the subject of cellular consciousness, as that some sort of reactive awareness appears to be present in numerous types of cellular life and it doesn't appear to be limited to cells with a nucleus, though those having one have the most overt signs of types of reactive awareness and transmissible acquired behaviors.
Certainly memory was a part of nature before linguistic communication was a thing, though arguably what we call knowledge may not have been part of the world in ancient times, biologically relevant information was clearly transmitted across generations and between organisms. Indeed that is what gametes are, living packets of information that combine together forming a complete set of instructions which can include aspects of behavior. Needless to say, the idea of knowledge being transmitted via gametes is a problematic concept, but the idea of aspects of memory being transmitted is reasonably well supported.
It is all rather lovely trivia.
However it is also true that the process of science, is that in which such discoveries and investigations demand and entail the use of evidence that can be reproduced, measured and tested thoroughly. Evidence, or that which evinces, is key to this process of learning, accumulating and revising information.
Herein lies the problem when it comes to the supernatural or paranormal, which may just be different words for superstition rather than words that describe genuine phenomena. Hence the super and para are prefixes that indicate that what the word is being applied to cannot be reasonably interpreted as normal.
Is it possible to prove something beyond normality? That seems far fetched to me, like trying to argue that the nonexistent exists because it doesn't exist. Science as a process cannot be employed for understanding things that cannot be observed and measured in a consistently reproducible manner.
Moreover, if something that is considered supernatural is evinced as extant, then it is natural and the label of supernatural cannot be reasonably applied.
In my case, regardless of the content of certain childhood dreams, I cannot consider dreams to be evidence of the supernatural regardless of my inability to explain said content. Nor, however, can I rightly dismiss them. Rather, without being able to measure their content, there is no tenable basis for any conclusion or even consideration of them as real or fake. Thus they are functionally irrelevant. Still, they were peculiar.
Some interpret the appearance of people they know to be dead in dreams as evidence of an afterlife. I find myself unable to make such an assertion. I think it is just evidence that we dream, no more, no less.
Edited by Nillion (10/22/23 05:38 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Nillion]
#28514741 - 10/22/23 09:10 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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I do not think the way our mind works is just trivia. nor is it trivial to see the similarity between (1)our mental approach towards what is of current interest, and (2) an insect or fish (or jellyfish) doing the same thing. albeit the range, complexity, energy, and feelings that reflexively accompany mental navigation are as immensely different between ourselves and some of our squishy friends, as are our body shapes and abilities.
Worms, insects & jellyfish might not consider the dead after the smell is gone. Some fish, however, might; birds and mammals have been observed to grieve, and some reptiles have shown affection with long standing mates.
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Nillion
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton]
#28514780 - 10/22/23 09:47 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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I do not disagree.
I meant that my familiarity with science and fact is trivia to me in relation to the topic, which is why I used the line about it being trivia to segue back to the discussion of proving the paranormal.
I did not mean to offend you by mistakenly implying that scientific theories of mind, consciousness and behavior are trivial.
I apologize for any misunderstanding that my wording may have caused. Please forgive my poor choice of words. Sorry about that.
I have likely written something in this post poorly as well, I fear, so I ask for your forgiveness should I continue to offend you. Please forgive me. It is not intentional.
Am I in the wrong by trying to participate in discussions here? I am starting to get the impression that I am not welcome here. If that is the case, I apologize.
I will withdraw from the conversation now.
Edited by Nillion (10/22/23 09:50 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Nillion] 1
#28514966 - 10/23/23 04:29 AM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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that's ridiculous, apologies rejected, withdrawal rejected!
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Nillion
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton]
#28515099 - 10/23/23 08:40 AM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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Then the mistake or misunderstanding is mine and I apologize for my confusion!
Once I met a boy in a cafe who just walked up to me and introduced himself and then proceeded to tell me that he was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. In that particular conversation I believe I mostly just kept replying "Oh?"
I sat there and realized that I was pretty biased when it comes to that claim. Likely because decades of internet use has shown me that this type of claim is absurdly common... as in far more common than I could or would have guessed it was. As he kept talking he explained his reasons for thinking what he did. I don't really recall many of them. One was that his birth name was Joshua, which is one of the most popular boys names among US religious communities. He had been born into a notorious polygamist family in Utah, where the cafe was. Some of his other reasons included his birthday and his last name.
He didn't appear to doubt himself. I quickly withdrew from the conversation, which I admit was something I was not very comfortable participating in. If I tell him what I thought, how would that help, and if I didn't, would I be contributing to his apparent delusion and potential psychosis? This path, of thinking oneself a deity, has led more than one person to a psychotic break, historically speaking. I told my spouse about him and a few weeks later they came back from a party and told me that he was there, that he walked up, introduced himself and started his whole speech about how he is the Son of God. My spouse stopped him and told him "I know who you are" and walked away!
Looking back on this... I am not even sure what evidence I would consider as proof of his claims. I know that none of what he considered proof was even remotely convincing to me. I confess, several of my experiences, psychedelic and otherwise, lead me to the concept that the universe is an interesting place in which peculiar things happen from time to time. I have often needed something and then it appeared in my life, mundane stuff typically, like a belt breaking and then finding a nice one that fit me on the side of the road later that day. I love things like this and they happen all the time to lots of people. Still I think it is far too easy to read into them and make a leap to absurdity and that religion and superstition play huge roles in that. Did the universe conspire to help me hold up my pants? To some perhaps an event like that is proof of just such a thing. I thought it was convenient and I liked that my pants stayed up. But maybe it was a case of the universe actually conspiring to drop someone else's pants and my finding the belt they lost was just incidental!
The evidence appears to prove that I found a belt and it fit.
I have experienced other things like this in my life and I think we all do, things that can be, imaginatively, interpreted as being on purpose. However, upon examination of those events and beliefs, I think we cherry pick circumstantial evidence to support ideas that make us feel better about ourselves. Many of us have beliefs that we want to be true because of how we relate to them, instead of beliefs that make actual sense.
To me this invokes an ancient concept that has changed considerably over the years. It is called Karma. Today in the west we see Karma as some sort of law of universal balance, a cosmic version of people get what they deserve. In the ancient version, however, it is the opposite of that, sort of. The thing is that things we see as good or bad happen to people we see as good or bad without any actual pattern. Karma originally was the law that what happens to people is beyond their comprehension. It is the teaching that if you look for a reason why things happen to people then you won't actually find one because it is all beyond human understanding. This is clear in old Hindu scriptures, but today people think of it as something that allows them to understand why things happen and divide it into good karma and bad karma. This allows them to interpret things they perceive as good and bad as something they or others deserve. In reality this is a dangerous and inherently problematic delusion that can be used to justify atrocity by casually dismissing it as the will of the universe or as the result of so called bad karma, but just writing that here will likely cause others to give me considerable grief about it.
The old version of Karma, however, relates to an ancient teaching of fate. It is actually the first rule in an old system of understanding but it is not quite as people see it today. Fate is not that which is meant to be, rather it is that which we have no control over. It is that which cannot be changed, rather than a manifestation of a plan of the universe. This older version of it is even compatible with relativity and what are called time-like curves!
Both Karma and Fate, today, have become woo concepts, to borrow a term I rarely use, but in their original sense they are both a version of Shit Happens, so don't worry too much about it or it will lead to delusional thinking, which it clearly does. They are practical concepts in their original forms, but today are imaginative concepts used to reinforce the same subjective delusions they were originally intended to dispel. But of course this is not something one like me says to boys in cafes who claim to be deities. Likewise teaching stuff like this to people online who think they are deities or reincarnated celebrities from the ancient world, is also rarely productive. So too is reinforcing their delusion, which can and does become full fledged psychosis in some of them. Many of us who have been involved in the psychedelic community have seen this happen repeatedly and know that there is often a tragic human cost involved.
I try to be as open minded as I can be, but it can be difficult. When someone says they can prove supernatural claims and then provides as this proof testimony that they know it to be true, then it is easy to see that they do not understand that a testimonial is only proof that they believe what they claim. It is not proof of the truth of what they claim, regardless of how strong their belief is. And yet for some people this seems to be an insurmountable mental obstacle.
Some people, though, are convinced that a testimony is proof, which is why we have cults and infomercials and the monstrous offspring of their union; televangelism.
The perception of what people interpret as supernatural events is also something that is being studied today. A good lay article about this, which I think relates to the topic can be found here: https://news.yahoo.com/news/ve-ever-heard-voice-wasn-140418564.html I hate to say that our perceptions can be misleading, but there is evidence supporting that, evidence I think is worth considering.
I am not actually an atheist nor a skeptic. I too have beliefs that others would likely consider woozy, as it were. One of those beliefs is that there is much in the universe that is beyond explanation. I believe in a type of fate, as well as karma, but the old versions I mention, which are still considered woozy beliefs by many people today.
There is a difference, I think, between looking for proof of a belief one already has and searching for truth.
To me, the theme of this thread is about looking for ways to prove beliefs that one has already decided are true. I don't think people should worry too much about that because it appears that superstition is surprisingly contagious already and merely saying you believe something will be taken as proof by some people in the world. Convincing others is, often enough, more about finding people who will believe you than it is about what you have to say. At least, it seems like that to me.
I've been wrong before and am just some guy on the internet, nothing I write should be considered as proof of anything.
Edited by Nillion (10/23/23 08:53 AM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Nillion] 1
#28515136 - 10/23/23 09:49 AM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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ah, just one of the people on the internet, but one with an exceptionally good journalistic style.
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Nillion
Nobody

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Quote:
redgreenvines said: ah, just one of the people on the internet, but one with an exceptionally good journalistic style. 
That is the best compliment I've ever had about my writing, without exaggeration.
I'll take it! Thank you for that.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Nillion]
#28515181 - 10/23/23 11:26 AM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
durian_2008 said: Actually, there is discussion regarding whether simple life forms learn without brains.
Quote:
Nillion said: I think the recent observations about what appears to be apparent consciousness in jellyfish is rather interesting myself.
Quote:
durian_2008 said: There are studies in which worms fed the RNA of other worms can remember their tricks
And, jellyfish are being eaten to supplement human memory. 
Some people claiming to have ESP would regard the electrical field in terms of a virtual bodypart, in which case, the sensory organs would not be solid in the conventional sense, or scientifically unrecognized organs of the body might act as meta materials.
Edited by durian_2008 (10/23/23 11:31 AM)
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
durian_2008 said: All scientific discovery should be preoccupied with the paranormal, except it is a captive industry. ...
I find that quite a bit of scientific evidence presented in experiments does not mean what the experimenter thinks it means. this is pretty hallucinatory.
and yeah, pinky is para
The unpleasant (bad rollercoaster ride) sensation in my belly and war of mind. Para(trooper).
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton]
#28556071 - 11/25/23 02:03 PM (2 months, 1 day ago) |
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I would hide within a modern convenience or business model, some unexplained feature, that is proof of my concept.
Although, I am giving it a conventional explanation that is palatable to the patent office.
It is an artifact, produced by physical mediumship, or a violation of thermodynamics.
And, anyone who wants to match my performance standards will have to copy my hitherto paranormal, newly discovered law of nature, as though it had was already, commonly accepted.
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Bardy


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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: durian_2008] 1
#28556564 - 11/25/23 09:41 PM (2 months, 1 day ago) |
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You can’t call genes memory. It’s just not memory. They’re genes being passed on to express certain traits in future generations. That is not the same as memory… it may seem kind of similar to memory when framed in certain ways, but it’s an entirely different process, therefore we give it a different name.
As for proving the paranormal, the only correct answer was given as the first reply to the initial post
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BrendanFlock
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy]
#28556602 - 11/25/23 10:58 PM (2 months, 1 day ago) |
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Does your DNA get affected by things that occur in your life?
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Bardy


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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: BrendanFlock] 1
#28556613 - 11/25/23 11:22 PM (2 months, 1 day ago) |
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Yeah, it definitely does change during our lives. Not a heck of a lot though if I remember correctly.
Mutations are your DNA changing. UV rays can change your DNA. DNA can kind of accidentally change itself when replicating. It’s almost perfect at replicating with close to 100% accuracy, but does make mistakes here and there.
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy]
#28556634 - 11/26/23 12:54 AM (2 months, 1 day ago) |
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Why do the mistakes happen?
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Bardy


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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#28556636 - 11/26/23 01:00 AM (2 months, 1 day ago) |
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Lot of different reasons. I’m no expert. I think it’s usually from external influences like viruses, radiation, chemical damage etc.
Look it up
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy]
#28556675 - 11/26/23 03:05 AM (2 months, 1 day ago) |
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Can you connect to your DNA and change it via your consciousness?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#28556696 - 11/26/23 03:57 AM (2 months, 1 day ago) |
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not a chance in hell, unless you have telepathic control over crisper, and you know each codon precisely.
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BrendanFlock
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I can see DNA strips and ribbons in my minds eye..
I try to tune into them.. like a tuner on an instrument.
Tweaking the means and methods of my DNA..
Dynamic base, acid Alkaloid.
Nucleotide.
DNA communicates on a sequence array from the electromagnetic spectrum..
D-branes contain electrodynamic forces..
Starting with nothing, then a point, then a line.. then a square.. then a circle.. then sphere.. than all the partial dimensions.
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#28556712 - 11/26/23 04:48 AM (2 months, 1 day ago) |
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The principle is that consciousness is made of fields of dimensions..
Leary made up the 8 circuit system of consciousness.
Higher dimensions control lesser ones..
Therefore the highest people rule.. the cause way..
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#28556713 - 11/26/23 04:51 AM (2 months, 1 day ago) |
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dancing in your mind changes how you feel, and doing this dna dance sounds fun, but it is not a paranormal feely way of changing your body's cells' actual dna chemical composition.
it's your art form or expression of Brendanity!
with your understanding of DNA chemistry, you should feel lucky that you are just being Brendan.
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Bardy


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DNA Dance… love it haha
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy]
#28556903 - 11/26/23 09:03 AM (2 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said: You can’t call genes memory.
DNA can be used as a medium for computer memory.
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,328
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton] 1
#28556936 - 11/26/23 09:23 AM (2 months, 1 day ago) |
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Keep a journal of your experiences. Try to get them on video. I was able to get one on video. Really you are the only person that needs to believe it.
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redgreenvines
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: durian_2008]
#28557028 - 11/26/23 10:38 AM (2 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
durian_2008 said:
Quote:
Bardy said: You can’t call genes memory.
DNA can be used as a medium for computer memory.
in an unstable proof of concept this is technically true. The encoding and decoding of the data, however, is not trivial nor is it realistic for living tissue to produce. After such a record of data is made, it is subject to ageing, mutation etc. therefore I would not recommend more work in that direction except as a form of espionage messaging, i.e. expensive spycraft.
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BrendanFlock
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28557731 - 11/26/23 08:05 PM (2 months, 17 hours ago) |
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For DNA to be used like a computer chip it has to have processing power.. which requires manipulation of the molecule as a current flows through it..
So there fore it must be changeable via human manipulation.
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CrayolaHalls



Registered: 03/23/10
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton]
#28557814 - 11/26/23 09:58 PM (2 months, 15 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Pinkerton said: I have experienced the paranormal crystal clear, ergo the evidence is there, but how to prove?
Lots of twisty conversations can come from this, but I wonder why you need to prove anything.
I think the answer lies in who you are trying to prove something to. You'll have to overcome their biases and experiences in a manner they find convincing if you want them to feel as though something is proven.
Many people rely on fragments of the scientific process for establishing proof, but the truth is most people don't understand what the scientific process is... so I go back to figuring out what qualifies to them as an individual.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: CrayolaHalls]
#28557934 - 11/27/23 03:54 AM (2 months, 9 hours ago) |
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good point Crayola
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Bardy


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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28557958 - 11/27/23 05:03 AM (2 months, 8 hours ago) |
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I don’t think it’s a valid point.
Crayola is talking about convincing somebody of something, not proving it.
If the standard at which someone will accept something as being true falls short of scientific proof then yes, they are convinced, but the thing is not proven.
You can’t just change the definition of the word prove to mean “proven to me”, or in other words “you’ve managed to persuade me”.
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redgreenvines
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy]
#28557969 - 11/27/23 05:16 AM (2 months, 8 hours ago) |
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good point, Bardy
The truth is something that is limited more narrowly than is consensus; but scientific truth is not quite as compelling as belief in this era.
How do we fix that?
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Asante
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28558397 - 11/27/23 01:36 PM (2 months, 7 minutes ago) |
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Nobody can prove the paranormal, but the paranormal can choose to prove itself.
It has for me, rock solid proof.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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redgreenvines
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Asante]
#28558412 - 11/27/23 01:57 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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I guess we need to be comfortable with our own limited range of knowledge, and find ways of being comfortable with others' range as well, and keep on being open and learning.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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It’s always good to be open to learning new things, but never abandon your critical thinking abilities.
Openness in the absence of critical thinking is called gullibility.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Asante]
#28558435 - 11/27/23 02:27 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said: Nobody can prove the paranormal, but the paranormal can choose to prove itself.
It has for me, rock solid proof.
What is an example of rock solid proof that you cannot show to anyone else?
Your senses don’t count, because we all know (at least all of us on the shroomery should) that they can fool us, or be fooled.
Edited by Bardy (11/27/23 02:31 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy]
#28558455 - 11/27/23 02:52 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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didn't you ever say to yourself, "this is not normal"?
in the eye of the beholder self evidence prevails, after that, you have to find your own meaning. this can leave you with a social disconnect.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 22 minutes, 53 seconds
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: didn't you ever say to yourself, "this is not normal"?
in the eye of the beholder self evidence prevails, after that, you have to find your own meaning. this can leave you with a social disconnect.
What exactly do you mean by the first sentence? …Yes, I’ve had experiences where I’ve felt as if things are a bit off, but I don’t see why we should chalk that up to the paranormal.
I’ve experienced delusion before under the influence of a cocktail of psychedelics where I’ve been absolutely sure what I’ve experienced was objective fact, but later I came to realise my mind completely fabricated the whole thing.
Not sure about the social disconnect claim… I can stay friends with people that I disagree with and have conversations with them about things that we disagree on.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy]
#28558546 - 11/27/23 04:39 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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that's excellent I don't agree with anyone, so there's hope for me too
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy]
#28558742 - 11/27/23 07:02 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Haha of course!
It feels good to have a big disagreement with someone and manage to get through the whole thing without it getting heated, then agreeing to disagree, then proceeding to share great times with that person. Gives me hope.
It’s probably easier to do with someone that shares your culture or background, but I feel as though it should be possible to do with anyone as long as they are open to having a dispassionate conversation where each of us don’t feel insulted that the other doesn’t agree.
Even though I may disagree with you and Asante here and there I still find a lot of your comments insightful and I am open to learning from anyone (even though it may not seem like it if I’m currently disagreeing with you).
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy]
#28558938 - 11/27/23 09:57 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Yeah well even tho it may seem I am disagreeing with you I am really agreeing with you but trying to give Asante some support since he has a lot of passion in his beliefs, or his way of describing reality, which may be the same thing.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: good point, Bardy
The truth is something that is limited more narrowly than is consensus; but scientific truth is not quite as compelling as belief in this era.
How do we fix that?
meditation and drawing
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Ferdinando]
#28559009 - 11/28/23 01:37 AM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: Yeah well even tho it may seem I am disagreeing with you I am really agreeing with you but trying to give Asante some support since he has a lot of passion in his beliefs, or his way of describing reality, which may be the same thing.
True. That’s something to think about. I respect you both anyway.
Amazing world, we live in.
Quote:
Ferdinando said: meditation and drawing
Both awesome hobbies. I love it when I rediscover both
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy]
#28559011 - 11/28/23 01:41 AM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: Yeah well even tho it may seem I am disagreeing with you I am really agreeing with you but trying to give Asante some support since he has a lot of passion in his beliefs, or his way of describing reality, which may be the same thing.
True. That’s something to think about. I respect you both anyway.
Amazing world, we live in.
Quote:
Ferdinando said: meditation and drawing
Both awesome hobbies. I love it when I rediscover both
Rediscover in every moment..
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: BrendanFlock] 1
#28559015 - 11/28/23 02:08 AM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Unfortunately it’s not possible to do in every moment, but I like the way you’re thinking. I wish I made more time to meditate… maybe I should make more time to meditate
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy]
#28559051 - 11/28/23 03:34 AM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Uh, I have a simple solution..
3 things..
1. Attempt to meditate all the time.. every instant forever.. Just the attempt to do this or say this has meditative power.
2. When you think about meditation during the day/night.. meditate at that moment..
3. Realize you can meditate on sense data.. in fact you can meditate on anything. And each thing you meditate on will produce a different reaction than another thing.
Thus the power of transcendental meditation!
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#28559075 - 11/28/23 04:34 AM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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rather than "meditate" consider these terms "reflect" and "be aware of mental contents" as mental contents change.
I admit, reflecting is not trivial to "do" at all times, but it can become an enlightening "habit that does you" if you give it some practice.
It is easily discontinuous, or as when hitting a stone while skating, you can easily be on another path, so the resilience here is like that of a skater who keeps on going, and is in a posture that welcomes, rolls with, eats the changes.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy] 1
#28559091 - 11/28/23 05:30 AM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said:
Quote:
Asante said: Nobody can prove the paranormal, but the paranormal can choose to prove itself.
It has for me, rock solid proof.
What is an example of rock solid proof that you cannot show to anyone else?
Your senses don’t count, because we all know (at least all of us on the shroomery should) that they can fool us, or be fooled.
I will tell you and then you have an outrageous claim, because what was an experience of the miraculous to you is mere hearsay to you.
-clear clairvoyance of main life events sometimes decades in advance, demonstrating knowledge of future events
-repeated pre-announced materialization of physical objects that remained present, demonstrating translocation of objects across space.
-repeated pre-announced human error in my favor, across the world, demonstrating influence over minds other than my own.
-repeated pre-announced defiance of what appears to be random chance, such as picking series of announced cards out of a 78 card tarot deck, demonstrating total control over the situation.
I DIDNT DO THAT - so i can't produce nor reproduce that.
The reality synthesizing level of human consiousness, that is the same in all of us, does and will, not just on our terms.
Now you have a problem whih you will likely solve with disbelief that tends to have a discrediting flavor in most as disbelief generally is paid for by calling someone a fool or liar.
Since you were given no proof, believing it might get gullibility cast on you.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Asante]
#28559129 - 11/28/23 06:41 AM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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often when I cut the deck of cards, I have several images in my mind of what it will be, and at 1/10th of a second - easily 10 images flash in mind, each second, as the card is being flipped.
this can add up to 2 or 3 seconds or 20-30 mental previews of the cut card (sometimes the same one).
Such as it is I do guess the right card before it is cut, and occasionally even articulate it linguistically in my head, and occasionally declare it outright when high. When high, occasionally, I feel like I am the deck and the table and this kind of connection can be spectacular.
However, being aware of my rapidly shifting mental contents, this seems ordinary to me but would seem astonishing to someone who does not observe changing mental contents at a sustained 10hz.
the experience of this kind of thing is terrific.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 22 minutes, 53 seconds
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Asante, you seem like you’ve already taken offence to my disbelief. Why? I have a right to not believe you if I don’t want to. It’s nothing personal…
I should clarify, I don’t believe in clairvoyance. I do believe that you may have been witness to a series of very lucky guesses - that is possible. And that would explain why you can’t reproduce it.
Also, it is not an outrageous claim to say that we can’t rely on our senses for proof of something. We all know our senses can be fooled. They often get things right, but often fabricate events too. A minute ago I thought I heard someone call my name, I realised it was a bird singing. Last night I experienced dreams where events took place that never happened and likely never will.
This is not a personal attack Asante. Hope you’re well mate.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy]
#28559530 - 11/28/23 02:27 PM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
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Descartes came to the conclusion “Cogito, ergo sum” because he realised his senses could be fooled and the only thing he could know for sure was that he existed because he has an experience.
This is why most people agree we cannot prove anything, other than that we exist in some form, based solely on our senses. It is not an outrageous claim. It has been largely agreed upon for centuries.
I think there is also a sense in which science is never able to positively prove anything either. It’s more just a gradual convergence on reality.
Edited by Bardy (11/28/23 03:26 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy]
#28559655 - 11/28/23 03:54 PM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
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it is a variant of "This is that I am" which is the translation of god's name in Hebrew ("yehaveh" aka "Jehova") and another variant in buddhism is Tathagato "he who walks thus".
moebius strips could be more explanatory.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy]
#28559671 - 11/28/23 04:03 PM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
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Circular reasoning? Haha
It’s starting to sound like I don’t believe anything can be truly proven
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy]
#28559688 - 11/28/23 04:09 PM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
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there is also the fact that in any 10th of a second more than a million neurons may be firing, different from those of 10th of a second earlier: trying to describe all of that other than by saying "Thus" or "That I am" would be absurd since by the next utterance the veracity would no longer hold.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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So it’s a different set of neurons each time saying “I am!”, “no I am!”
We all are. And we are not one, and we are not many. We just are? Lol
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy]
#28559821 - 11/28/23 05:52 PM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
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pretty much as you say, being a good approximation.
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
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What does one firiing synapse communicate?
Edited by BrendanFlock (11/29/23 02:06 AM)
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#28560254 - 11/29/23 01:53 AM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
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Not much
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#28560314 - 11/29/23 05:10 AM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
BrendanFlock said: What does one firiing synapse communicate?
where is this lonely synapse? did you sit on a pin?
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


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Lol, it is part of a group.. I concede..
But it must have a singular output in combined with the bundle..
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#28561692 - 11/30/23 05:10 AM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
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neurons in isolation are too lonely
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,683
Loc: Raccoon City
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They go catatonic and wake up from their amnesia in a blind, murderous rage.
(People have literally rioted over the use of straw hats and top hats in a fashion crime.)
If mundane people aren't doing that, nothing paranormal has occurred.
(Think, cat vs. cucumber.)
What will happen, irl, when the whole thing is said and done and over with, the normies will misremember something tolerable in place of what they cannot grasp.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: durian_2008] 1
#28563033 - 11/30/23 10:07 PM (1 month, 27 days ago) |
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Is that comment supposed to not make sense? Or have I had a stroke or something? Lol
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