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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28557958 - 11/27/23 05:03 AM (2 months, 8 hours ago) |
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I don’t think it’s a valid point.
Crayola is talking about convincing somebody of something, not proving it.
If the standard at which someone will accept something as being true falls short of scientific proof then yes, they are convinced, but the thing is not proven.
You can’t just change the definition of the word prove to mean “proven to me”, or in other words “you’ve managed to persuade me”.
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy]
#28557969 - 11/27/23 05:16 AM (2 months, 8 hours ago) |
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good point, Bardy
The truth is something that is limited more narrowly than is consensus; but scientific truth is not quite as compelling as belief in this era.
How do we fix that?
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28558397 - 11/27/23 01:36 PM (2 months, 7 minutes ago) |
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Nobody can prove the paranormal, but the paranormal can choose to prove itself.
It has for me, rock solid proof.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Asante]
#28558412 - 11/27/23 01:57 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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I guess we need to be comfortable with our own limited range of knowledge, and find ways of being comfortable with others' range as well, and keep on being open and learning.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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It’s always good to be open to learning new things, but never abandon your critical thinking abilities.
Openness in the absence of critical thinking is called gullibility.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Asante]
#28558435 - 11/27/23 02:27 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said: Nobody can prove the paranormal, but the paranormal can choose to prove itself.
It has for me, rock solid proof.
What is an example of rock solid proof that you cannot show to anyone else?
Your senses don’t count, because we all know (at least all of us on the shroomery should) that they can fool us, or be fooled.
Edited by Bardy (11/27/23 02:31 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy]
#28558455 - 11/27/23 02:52 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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didn't you ever say to yourself, "this is not normal"?
in the eye of the beholder self evidence prevails, after that, you have to find your own meaning. this can leave you with a social disconnect.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: didn't you ever say to yourself, "this is not normal"?
in the eye of the beholder self evidence prevails, after that, you have to find your own meaning. this can leave you with a social disconnect.
What exactly do you mean by the first sentence? …Yes, I’ve had experiences where I’ve felt as if things are a bit off, but I don’t see why we should chalk that up to the paranormal.
I’ve experienced delusion before under the influence of a cocktail of psychedelics where I’ve been absolutely sure what I’ve experienced was objective fact, but later I came to realise my mind completely fabricated the whole thing.
Not sure about the social disconnect claim… I can stay friends with people that I disagree with and have conversations with them about things that we disagree on.
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy]
#28558546 - 11/27/23 04:39 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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that's excellent I don't agree with anyone, so there's hope for me too
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy]
#28558742 - 11/27/23 07:02 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Haha of course!
It feels good to have a big disagreement with someone and manage to get through the whole thing without it getting heated, then agreeing to disagree, then proceeding to share great times with that person. Gives me hope.
It’s probably easier to do with someone that shares your culture or background, but I feel as though it should be possible to do with anyone as long as they are open to having a dispassionate conversation where each of us don’t feel insulted that the other doesn’t agree.
Even though I may disagree with you and Asante here and there I still find a lot of your comments insightful and I am open to learning from anyone (even though it may not seem like it if I’m currently disagreeing with you).
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy]
#28558938 - 11/27/23 09:57 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Yeah well even tho it may seem I am disagreeing with you I am really agreeing with you but trying to give Asante some support since he has a lot of passion in his beliefs, or his way of describing reality, which may be the same thing.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: good point, Bardy
The truth is something that is limited more narrowly than is consensus; but scientific truth is not quite as compelling as belief in this era.
How do we fix that?
meditation and drawing
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Ferdinando]
#28559009 - 11/28/23 01:37 AM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: Yeah well even tho it may seem I am disagreeing with you I am really agreeing with you but trying to give Asante some support since he has a lot of passion in his beliefs, or his way of describing reality, which may be the same thing.
True. That’s something to think about. I respect you both anyway.
Amazing world, we live in.
Quote:
Ferdinando said: meditation and drawing
Both awesome hobbies. I love it when I rediscover both
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy]
#28559011 - 11/28/23 01:41 AM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: Yeah well even tho it may seem I am disagreeing with you I am really agreeing with you but trying to give Asante some support since he has a lot of passion in his beliefs, or his way of describing reality, which may be the same thing.
True. That’s something to think about. I respect you both anyway.
Amazing world, we live in.
Quote:
Ferdinando said: meditation and drawing
Both awesome hobbies. I love it when I rediscover both
Rediscover in every moment..
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: BrendanFlock] 1
#28559015 - 11/28/23 02:08 AM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Unfortunately it’s not possible to do in every moment, but I like the way you’re thinking. I wish I made more time to meditate… maybe I should make more time to meditate
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy]
#28559051 - 11/28/23 03:34 AM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Uh, I have a simple solution..
3 things..
1. Attempt to meditate all the time.. every instant forever.. Just the attempt to do this or say this has meditative power.
2. When you think about meditation during the day/night.. meditate at that moment..
3. Realize you can meditate on sense data.. in fact you can meditate on anything. And each thing you meditate on will produce a different reaction than another thing.
Thus the power of transcendental meditation!
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#28559075 - 11/28/23 04:34 AM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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rather than "meditate" consider these terms "reflect" and "be aware of mental contents" as mental contents change.
I admit, reflecting is not trivial to "do" at all times, but it can become an enlightening "habit that does you" if you give it some practice.
It is easily discontinuous, or as when hitting a stone while skating, you can easily be on another path, so the resilience here is like that of a skater who keeps on going, and is in a posture that welcomes, rolls with, eats the changes.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Bardy] 1
#28559091 - 11/28/23 05:30 AM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bardy said:
Quote:
Asante said: Nobody can prove the paranormal, but the paranormal can choose to prove itself.
It has for me, rock solid proof.
What is an example of rock solid proof that you cannot show to anyone else?
Your senses don’t count, because we all know (at least all of us on the shroomery should) that they can fool us, or be fooled.
I will tell you and then you have an outrageous claim, because what was an experience of the miraculous to you is mere hearsay to you.
-clear clairvoyance of main life events sometimes decades in advance, demonstrating knowledge of future events
-repeated pre-announced materialization of physical objects that remained present, demonstrating translocation of objects across space.
-repeated pre-announced human error in my favor, across the world, demonstrating influence over minds other than my own.
-repeated pre-announced defiance of what appears to be random chance, such as picking series of announced cards out of a 78 card tarot deck, demonstrating total control over the situation.
I DIDNT DO THAT - so i can't produce nor reproduce that.
The reality synthesizing level of human consiousness, that is the same in all of us, does and will, not just on our terms.
Now you have a problem whih you will likely solve with disbelief that tends to have a discrediting flavor in most as disbelief generally is paid for by calling someone a fool or liar.
Since you were given no proof, believing it might get gullibility cast on you.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Asante]
#28559129 - 11/28/23 06:41 AM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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often when I cut the deck of cards, I have several images in my mind of what it will be, and at 1/10th of a second - easily 10 images flash in mind, each second, as the card is being flipped.
this can add up to 2 or 3 seconds or 20-30 mental previews of the cut card (sometimes the same one).
Such as it is I do guess the right card before it is cut, and occasionally even articulate it linguistically in my head, and occasionally declare it outright when high. When high, occasionally, I feel like I am the deck and the table and this kind of connection can be spectacular.
However, being aware of my rapidly shifting mental contents, this seems ordinary to me but would seem astonishing to someone who does not observe changing mental contents at a sustained 10hz.
the experience of this kind of thing is terrific.
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
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Asante, you seem like you’ve already taken offence to my disbelief. Why? I have a right to not believe you if I don’t want to. It’s nothing personal…
I should clarify, I don’t believe in clairvoyance. I do believe that you may have been witness to a series of very lucky guesses - that is possible. And that would explain why you can’t reproduce it.
Also, it is not an outrageous claim to say that we can’t rely on our senses for proof of something. We all know our senses can be fooled. They often get things right, but often fabricate events too. A minute ago I thought I heard someone call my name, I realised it was a bird singing. Last night I experienced dreams where events took place that never happened and likely never will.
This is not a personal attack Asante. Hope you’re well mate.
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