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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: durian_2008]
#28512115 - 10/20/23 04:46 PM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
Further, every new discovery made by the 'materialists' was para-normal, before becoming normalized.
That's a fair point, normal things can seem para-normal but not be. One could make a reasonable assumption that anything which can be perceived with ordinary senses is normal whether understood or not. A caveat would be that appearances and knowledge can be deceiving especially when it comes to humans.
This would be in contrast to claims that offer nothing for the senses. I can see lightning and decide for myself if it's normal. I can't see ghosts. My only knowledge of ghosts comes from claims others have made. Same for many other paranormal claims.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,683
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Rahz]
#28512125 - 10/20/23 04:56 PM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
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There are tangible, physical objects, in your immediate surroundings, that you are unconsciously ignoring, right now.
Under the correct drugs or hypnosis, you could tell me what they are, in fine detail.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: durian_2008]
#28512251 - 10/20/23 06:55 PM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
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maybe
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: durian_2008]
#28512315 - 10/20/23 08:14 PM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
durian_2008 said: There are tangible, physical objects, in your immediate surroundings, that you are unconsciously ignoring, right now.
Sure. There are hundreds of objects in the room I'm in and I'm not consciously aware of them until they become the subject of thought.
You are suggesting a similarity between them and paranormal entities? There could be a ghost in the room and I'm not consciously aware of it because I'm tuning it out?
I have seen all the other physical objects in the room before. Either that, or that they can be seen is part of the cause to become aware of them.
The reasonable assumption is that there are no ghosts in the room. That doesn't mean it's a true assumption but I would need some reason other than a claim that ghosts exists to consider it. That's the point. I'm not saying I know for a fact there are no ghosts, I simply don't believe in them.
Humans are capable of hallucinating. Tangible physical objects can be seen by anyone. Tangible entities (like humans) are capable of traveling to NY and doing an interview with Jimmy Fallon.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Rahz]
#28512343 - 10/20/23 08:32 PM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
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to further what Rahz has said. we are not normally aware of anything we are not thinking of. In fact the two phrases are virtually synonymous and both are about the mental contents at the moment.
so if we are stoned or not, if we are being aware of our surroundings more than what was on our minds a few minutes ago, then we are more connected than we otherwise would have been, this is more about an attitude or personality habit of being aware of where we are, how our body is in space now etc.
How we sense and perceive things when stoned, however, is more temporally plastic, our thinking stretches, folds, stacks up and basically out silly's silly putty if we push it.
At this point, it is less about the surrounds, than it is about what the mind is up to.
Anyway it is normal to be silly, not paranormal. and it is also normal to spook yourself and to want to hide or get others to verify.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,683
Loc: Raccoon City
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: get others to verify.
irl, there is a cadre of likeminded people doing it -- like illicit sex, drugs, or whatever weird genre of music or media or food scene.
It is not foisted upon the disinterested, the potentially hostile, or those who are blind to it.
Someone who you think is unrelateable is able to gauge you and do it in your face. 
No one is particularly asking to be validated.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: durian_2008]
#28512882 - 10/21/23 11:21 AM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
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from the NYTimes today, https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/01/reader-center/april-fools-day-a-stranger-times.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article Describing the ancient rite of changing a billy goat into a young man.
Witches have frequented the Brocken ever since man can remember. The smallest boy hereabouts can tell you that.
Even Goethe, in his “Faust,” recognized that this was a place where no ordinary things happened. He wrote:
“The witches on the Brocken sail, The shoot is green, The stubble’s pale, And high above them thrones Old Nick.”
As prescribed by the old rite, the goat was led into the magic circle by a silver cord. After it had been anointed a white sheet was thrown over it. All the proper abracadabra was intoned. Then, in a weird monotone, Harry Price, director of the National Laboratory of Psychical Research, London, boomed “One.”
With just the proper pauses he counted to ten.
A hundred or so spectators, huddled in overcoats to protect them from the swirling mists, looked on in breathless silence.
The maiden pure in heart whisked off the white sheet.
And there stood the billygoat.
The spectators applauded heartily and the investigators said they were satisfied.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,683
Loc: Raccoon City
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Their minds filled in the blank, during the pregnant pause.
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Cory Duchesne
tabernacle


Registered: 10/05/16
Posts: 915
Loc: Nova Scotia
Last seen: 2 days, 20 hours
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton]
#28513849 - 10/22/23 08:34 AM (3 months, 5 days ago) |
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Take a photograph of 'it'. I did a spore print a few years ago and photographed the pareidolia. There are some pareidolia's that imply a normality that super or para:
Here's my photograph of the paranormal or super-natural:
&ab_channel=CoryDuchesne
-------------------- C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know." "I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti "All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,683
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: durian_2008]
#28513890 - 10/22/23 09:13 AM (3 months, 5 days ago) |
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If flocks of wild birds fell to the ground, mushrooms suddenly appeared, the bison stampeded at Yellowstone, if ants grew wings, or schools of grunion, whales, and oarfish washed ashore, you might infer some prime mover, strange attractor, or chaos agent outside of the typical range of human perception. One could accuse the neurotypical of having the negative hallucination in response to some scientifically measurable outcome, or it could be considered a schizoid superstition.
Quote:
Guillermo del Toro's Cabinet of Curiosities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillermo_del_Toro's_Cabinet_of_Curiosities
"The Viewing" In 1979, wealthy recluse Lionel Lassiter invites musician Randall Roth, astrophysicist Charlotte Xie (who studies extraterrestrial life), best-selling author Guy Landon, and psychic Targ Reinhhard to his home for a special viewing, intended to help them all expand their consciousness. Flanked by his physician Dr. Zahra, he encourages them all to take a mixture of cocaine and a custom drug made by Zahra, to place them on the same wavelength. He takes them to a secret room containing an otherworldly meteor. The meteor reacts to their collective presence, and they fall into a trance. The meteor cracks open, and an oozing entity emerges. The power emanating from the being melts Targ's face and Zahra's body, explodes Landon's head, and causes Xie and Roth to flee for their lives. The entity melts down and possesses Lassiter's body, stalking the grounds of his home and killing his guard with electricity. Xie and Roth flee by car, stopping eventually to question what occurred. The entity, now merged with Lassiter into a grisly form, enters the sewers, disrupting the electricity of the city with its uncontrolled aura.
For the sake of this short story, they were not being poisoned, together; they are explicitly told that their party favors are non-toxic, as well as being in the presence of a skilled, medical professional.
In spite of the guest's separate career specialties, each of which gave them unique ways of framing the situation, (like the parable of the blind men grasping at the elephant) the common denominator was their fear of the unknown, when viewing the singular, non-descript object.
Had Lassiter not said, "I have seen things that will make you shit your mind, Kemosabe," these artsy guests might just as soon have manifested some rare delicacy, such as they were offered from the very beginning, each from his respective field of knowledge. This artifact is the only obvious advantage held by the eccentric billionaire.
It may be no more evil than the tophat that caused the riot or the cucumber that causes the housecat to panic, depending on how you react to what is unfamiliar to you or if you block it out, altogether.
But, if you see a response like upheaval, you might consider it proof of the unknown.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: durian_2008]
#28514226 - 10/22/23 01:54 PM (3 months, 5 days ago) |
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the unknown does not need to be proven, almost everything is unknown, and everything that will be is unknown yet.
this is about what is paranormal and what is not, and so far every thing is normal - much of it weird but not paranormal i.e. new new laws of physics required
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,127
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So what you are saying is that I did not experience true paranormality? Is the paranormal always scientifically understood?
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,683
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton]
#28514269 - 10/22/23 02:17 PM (3 months, 5 days ago) |
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Someone who performs a paranormal feat is going to cause primal outrage in about 19 out of 20 people and probably some version of amnesia.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton]
#28514300 - 10/22/23 02:39 PM (3 months, 5 days ago) |
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Something paranormal is by definition beyond the range of scientific explanation.
Does this mean it's beyond the range because the science isn't understood or because it's inherently not understandable regardless of what scientific knowledge one has?
For me, something truly paranormal can never be approached by science. That's why I cited lightning.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton]
#28514301 - 10/22/23 02:40 PM (3 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
Pinkerton said: So what you are saying is that I did not experience true paranormality? Is the paranormal always scientifically understood?
no, scientific understanding is very limited, paranormal understanding is even more limited.
people can feel when something is not normal to them. I have no doubt that you are feeling something not normal to you when you say it.
I can't help with getting people who are not you to believe you, but they will eventually accept you as you are.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,683
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Rahz]
#28514306 - 10/22/23 02:41 PM (3 months, 5 days ago) |
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I view 'para' as meaning on the verges of consensus reality.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,683
Loc: Raccoon City
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Quote:
I can't help with getting people who are not you to believe you, but they will eventually accept you as you are.
Snitches, witches, and prophets are dying breeds.
Imagine what this means, where self-knowledge is put on restriction, and status is established through artificial scarcity.
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Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton]
#28514330 - 10/22/23 02:57 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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I had some profound experiences of a religious nature, but I still question them. Someone appeared to me in a dream when I was a kid and told me stuff, they gave me 3 pieces of information about my mother as well and told me to go ask them when I woke up, and told me it would be proof that the dream was legit.
I went to my mom and asked her about the stuff and she swore me to secrecy and admitted the first two things and then told me she would not talk about the third.
To this day the whole thing messes with my head. Could it be genetic memory? I'd like to think so.
But the person also told me stuff about my future, stuff that came true. Did it only come true because they said it would? How can I know?
I'm not convinced of any of it and yet I cannot dismiss it. But proving it to any other person is nigh impossible.
It is also personal in many ways and not really stuff I like talking about. In a way it is intimidating, but I don't worry about it.
I don't have any belief in the supernatural at this point, but I don't rule it out.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,683
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Nillion]
#28514343 - 10/22/23 03:07 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
Could it be genetic memory? I'd like to think so.
What is in one peer review threatens the funding of and tenure of another. Endowments rival small countries. Academics will get so angry over their version of reality, that you will sense adrenaline in the air, and someone's gonna miss a beat.
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Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
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Re: How do you prove the paranormal? [Re: Pinkerton] 1
#28514356 - 10/22/23 03:17 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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durian_2008, I don't know if you meant that to be as amusing as I found it, but spot on!
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