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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Hmmm, a bit more like when perceptual frame stacking is taking place like after sitting for a while without being perturbed by it and simply watching the mind do its thing wrt the senses sensing whatever they sense in the moment. There's a serene calmness, amazingly undetached yet lucid awareness of the flux of things, on top of a short lived psychedelic-like quality to it as if having awoken from sleep with certain faculties of mind just happening to have aligned in such a way so as to up the ante of what's normally perceptible upon waking up, and, uncannily balanced; as if, upon noticing - yet - while not feeling compelled to clamor for more - since - it might be exciting at first waking up accompanied by significant rapture, in addition to watching the balancing act of inner & outer processes unfolding in a way that the causal links stack clearly, sometimes, to the point of a web of perceptions holding for a time, simultaneously, as some cease and new one's come into play ~ and in as close to real time as seemingly can be.
Near if not with the markings of an already established effort bringing about jhanic qualities to experience, yet, without having put forth the effort that normally i would associate that with.
Like the factors for enlightenment are already at play and maybe something i was unaware of happening earlier played into things happening like so upon waking up.
It's a wonderful experience, albeit with the drawbacks of any other.
I suppose some of my concerns with it is that, while it does seem uncontrived, natural, involuntary, and close to - if not completely random - sometimes occurring many times in a times a week, the duration can last as short as 15 seconds. While, at others times, it may go on for 15 or so minutes at a time before things change on their own, perhaps I either need to get ready for the day, or I begin to clamor for it - something like that, and so it slips away, so to speak.
Then again, there have been long bouts where it hasn't occurred like i'm describing for months at a time. It most definitely is altered consciousness, to a varying degree, but it's so refreshing while occurring, seens as natural as breathing itself, and uncalled for that I wanted to know if anyone could relate or possibly help to elucidate what circumstances might be at play in how that might be happening. Imagine, waking up in what you'd might attribute to having sat while one's mental faculties worked together harmoniously wrt meditative awareness of inner & outer phenomenon as non-dual and co-occurring.
I can't find anything in the literature about it, and i'd really like to know more about that if I could.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (10/12/23 09:08 PM)
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 2 days, 13 hours
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What do you guys think of the importance of postures, madras etc?
I think its a perfect science.. you can tell where the energy is flowing..
You can tell when energy is locked.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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taking a particular posture generally seems for bodily stability, ime. Some of the ideas surrounding that being it may be more conducive -or- basically, help certain wholesome qualities or desirable factors wrt meditation (depends on what it is one practices, I presume) to come about more naturally, and, to lessen certain other more hindering factors wrt one's practice from potentially overpowering the others so as to unbalance oneself, if that makes sense? Comfort is important, obviously. Said balance in question is in general, as in, wrt body:mind - as a whole, if not, what else?
Wrt whatever meditative practice someone uses for the cultivation of morality, concentration, and wisdom - if for that - I used to sit half lotus for much, much too long a duration for periods of time (in part b/c it often would take me longer time to settle into even the most simple of practices) and - with not enough breaks at the appropriate times, to allow my legs & what not to return to normal before getting back to it in the same posture.
Unfortunately, there were a few years where I'd spend most a summer and or winter going on like so starting from midnight onwards until the sun fully rose before taking a break to rest/sleep before getting on with my day. Intensive practice isn't necessarily always a good thing, longer isn't always better - neither is the opposite always true. Takes experimenting, a discerning mind, clearheadness, and having a trusted companion or teacher might help spare one from practicing something specific incorrectly, etc - Basically, anyone trustworthy and legit -as in- not just book-hip to it, but practices themselves, too. Someone, almost anyone who's gone through the trials and errors of many phases might can help share in a way so that doing any particular practice goes about in that it helps one not have to waste so much time, effort, and hardships. It likely would've saved me a lot of trouble, oy. Then again, that's part of the wisdom aspect, over-emphasizing the concentrative aspect of it so as to overshadow morality & wisdom, kinda defeats the point of the whole balance thing mentioned earlier, no? Seems like it to me at least imho&e.
But, also, to each their own - although sometimes shared, too, right? We live, experience, and, hopefully learn something from said experience. Ideally, anyways. 
Nowadays, the aforementioned intensives did a number on my knees, ankles, and hips. Now, they've all some bothersome pains about them whenever most of the time, and, when I attempt to go any long stretches of time, as in - more than 10/20 minutes a sit without taking a break and stretching and switching into kinhin basically, just walking around but continuing with the same effort of concentration wrt involuntary/natural awareness, body, mind, breathing remains as the anchor, so to speak - later to move onto a sensation in the body and resonating with it in a manner that amplifies the pleasantness of it, or, indifference, or pain - depending on the nature of the practice at the time, etc, etc. Basically, if you read the tripitakas anapanasati suttas like you would the PF TeK, and follow it like so, that's the gist of it, wrt establishing a solid foundation - but - its not like that remains, so it has to be continued in some form or another, formal or informal - sitting, or curled up in a ball or whatever...for it to remain as beneficial.
From what I can tell, it really seems like a keep on utilizing it or lose it kind of a thing, at least, to a large extent, basically. Hence, the emphasis many of us might hear, read, and or discover for ourselves placed upon conditioning ourselves to a committed times fo the day for formal practice - daily! Kind of like being sober a day at a time, but it's a moment to moment thing taking place within an unending open and ever-changing present moment. (afaik, anyways)
So, i've had to adapt, more and more as time goes on - and strangely or un-strangely enough - running works quite well (not sprinting the whole time, but not walking/jogging only either), so does simply sitting in a chair, or other postures/positions, even lying does, too - although sloth & torpor are more prevalent in some positions more than others it would seem; but, that can be worked with if aware of oneself before beginning whilst simply about doing whatever in the day/moment as leading into one's formal sessions of a basic, simple, and or even more involved meditative practice(s), too.
Awareness of the body comes intuitively after some time spent continually bringing the mind back to it, training it like so. That, which then is reflected in my body posture - which in itself usually reflects mind’s *state (*zones: sets of states -ie- fluxing states, rather than a single static state really - or something along those lines)
One thing i've both read of and heard of from time to time that i'll often resonate with to some degree, is that - to assume a certain posture as per whatever's appropriate for one's practice - is indicative of, or, like an expression of correct practice itself, and, of a meditatively oriented mind, albeit that was geared towards zazen, perhaps shikantaza specifically, iirc - basically, just sitting + anapanasati, or, awareness of the breath practice ~ as a thing in its own right ~ and, as a means to establishing a foundation wrt mindfulness in general, ie. conditioning - that's one of the ways in which how I might interpret it anyways. Alrighty, sloppy writing is indicative of it being time for bed, off to sit then sit. G'nit fellas.
Not one, not two - Straight ahead lies the way! ...or so some of those cookey old stuffy monks might sometimes say.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (10/12/23 10:54 PM)
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GenesisCorrupted
Taoist, Writer, Student, Artist




Registered: 08/01/23
Posts: 7,183
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 7 minutes, 6 seconds
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I’m not a professional at this. But I’ve hurt my back. I can’t really sit on the ground for extended periods of time. This is a really easy method of meditation that I use. It’s really accessible and easy for anyone to do. The principles are still the same. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28448570#28448570
Edited by GenesisCorrupted (10/12/23 11:09 PM)
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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I sat, now I'll post, then I'm off to bed. 
I like to think I'm an absolute beginner always beginning anew, and there's some influence from some impactful people that've helped me to view mediation like so - so - prep? Idk...I just don't. How? If fresh, previous exp kicks in but also like a baby or something, idk, sure there are certain factors and conditions that are more conductive than others, but honestly, even that isn't entirely true. Meditation just is of whatever's going on wrt body:mind:environment, that is - as I understand it. There is a sort of balancing act to be kept up with while doing so in formal seshies, so to speak, but yeah...regardless... how can anything not be included? 
I've read a decent bit on a number of things that can be related to the subject, done bits of exploring in a few meditative traditions, sat a shit load, experimented with many a style of contemplative/meditative practices, eaten many a psychedelics, and luckily been blessed with some truly ineffable moments of deeply good and seemingly unrelenting goodies from it that I can always touch upon whenever, wherever- just so long as i've the wherewithal about me to do so. Many i've met have in some way or another, but not all, at least maybe not yet? Who knows...
For some reason I recalled near the end of tonight's sit that I began in the first place - in terms of seeking any formal instruction - in wanting to see if psychedelia and certain styles of meditation were comparable, which came from a simple childhood fascination loaded with awe & wonder for life and especially all things psychedelic, before understanding even what that term entailed, mostly regarding experiences dreaming and visions and whatnot as a child. I wanted, almost needed to know - if there were a shared biological basis to *exo & endo* chemically induced *spiritual/mystical/psychedelic/dream/religious/etc* experiences.
And, maybe 8 years after perusing the answer and upon finally being able to confirm first hand that they in fact are chemically related in some ways - especially in terms of the experientially aspect of any of those mentioned earlier - albeit with differences - but similar enough - like that of our nightly dreams to a weekend psychedelic sesh.
That helped me immensely to dispel much of vert burdensome mess of confusion I'd carried about around regarding certain questions I'd had for so long pertaining to so many things about the nature of phenomenon, experience, and perception.
The little tiny snippets of unparalleled insight gleaned from either and or both manners of reaching the same or similar vantage points - can and are much the same in some respects. Each has the potential to be Mind Manifesting to varying extents, so why wouldn't the aforementioned be the case?
Although, that may be how I'm geared towards things in general and have little to do with those things themselves, idk? Not much that wasn't already in some way available to me previously has been revealed by either, just expounded upon in various ways wrt both practice and psychs - together - even better, ihmoe. Feeling more deeply and grokking in ways I couldn't imagine beforehand, etc.
At first, I only partook of meditative practice at all b/c I stumbled upon the sphere of infinite consciousness through contemplation and star gazing at night into space and pondering what this thing we called a self is - wondering where all things come from, etc, etc, and the sphere of infinite space cropped up shortly after than other (some months later), in combo - the two eventually led to an unsolicited evening of an acute & deeply felt sense of unity with everything in nature and beyond as within or part of the always already ever present moment's wholeness inclusive of all things.
Afterwards I was like a madman attempting to understand what had happened - as it went against all mainstream things I was brought up with and that were around me, I talked with whomever would lend an ear and could maybe provide some insight, but alas...seemed to be one of those 'flights of the alone into the alone' - sort of things.
I followed up by going through libraries reading significant portions on the sciences on a very fundamental level, philosophy, and religion - looking for clues, hints, anything I could until I stumbled upon some 'buddhist-like' books (books talking about people talking about their studies into buddhism?, but, not: *how to do x, y, and z so that that the whole enchilada would then fall upon my plate* which is what I thought I wanted at the time, that is, to understand everything, and hopefully learn to evoke the same experiences from earlier, and man...was I in for some hard lessons, lmao). That alone got me hooked - and guess what?
It's not like I found out anything entirely new, nor I didn't need to figure it all out, or much of anything. People have been at it in one form or the other since we could think and ponder anything in any semi-significant way, relatively speaking.
I don't know everything, I can't ever know everything - thus, I became more aware of this natural sort of ignorance which is always with, and by extension presume most if not all sentient beings do too; also, accompanying said ignorance are the lovely twin teachers of delusion & illusion, also seemingly ubiquitous throughout humanity and anyone/anything privy to the phenomenon deemed Mind. The senses are fallible, the mind is tricksy, experience is often sketchy, and everything of compounded form is always breaking down and transforming into other things...all the time.
The best I think to be done with that knowledge is to be honest about what it means for oneself & others - in a deep way, and, with respect to what we really don't know and what we think we know but don't really actually know at all, plus the inklings of what we sort of kinda know in some ways, too.
If we can come to some chilled out headspace, much like space itself, and relax in general, and then examine life in so far as we can be aware of it via the senses and the intellect as that which is both in and all around us as phenomenon, and, as the expression of primordial energy - then maybe - some insight does get through to us.
If with that we can map out little segments of what's happening in the moment, as per our most honest understanding of things although that will also change - although, things change at different rates & intervals of time... so...just maybe someone else can come along at the right time and be helped by it, or we can be helped by them - and - in some way - build upon what we share with one another while incorporating the more newly changed happenings to account for their differences and so on and so forth; then, we've perhaps got something to work with that's of benefit to ourselves and anyone else, potentially.
If meditation isn't geared towards the good wrt morality & wisdom - so that it can aid us in the pursuit of knowledge, and, more importantly maybe - how to appropriately apply said knowledges skillfully so as to lessen the unavoidable harm that comes of anything being in the world of shared things - then there we go, that's some good shit, that is...at least, if you ask me.
to appreciative, or love, and know - that all sentient beings on some level despite harming some other beings sometimes, I just want to say - I believe they're primordially pure from the very get go, regardless - until the very end even.
I know that's probably not the most popular opinion, but it's just how I'm feeling. Sitting, especially in nature - only makes it worse. 
So, that's all to say - thank you to all you sore bummed cushion mushers with achy legs, and, to those doing likewise, even off of the cushion, too. Carrying that sort of deep-wide-open Mind wherever, whenever, & however - that's fucking cool. 
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Quote:
The Blind Ass said: Hmmm, a bit more like when perceptual frame stacking is taking place like after sitting for a while without being perturbed by it and simply watching the mind do its thing wrt the senses sensing whatever they sense in the moment. There's a serene calmness, amazingly undetached yet lucid awareness of the flux of things, on top of a short lived psychedelic-like quality to it as if having awoken from sleep with certain faculties of mind just happening to have aligned in such a way so as to up the ante of what's normally perceptible upon waking up, and, uncannily balanced; as if, upon noticing - yet - while not feeling compelled to clamor for more - since - it might be exciting at first waking up accompanied by significant rapture, in addition to watching the balancing act of inner & outer processes unfolding in a way that the causal links stack clearly, sometimes, to the point of a web of perceptions holding for a time, simultaneously, as some cease and new one's come into play ~ and in as close to real time as seemingly can be.
Near if not with the markings of an already established effort bringing about jhanic qualities to experience, yet, without having put forth the effort that normally i would associate that with.
Like the factors for enlightenment are already at play and maybe something i was unaware of happening earlier played into things happening like so upon waking up.
It's a wonderful experience, albeit with the drawbacks of any other.
I suppose some of my concerns with it is that, while it does seem uncontrived, natural, involuntary, and close to - if not completely random - sometimes occurring many times in a times a week, the duration can last as short as 15 seconds. While, at others times, it may go on for 15 or so minutes at a time before things change on their own, perhaps I either need to get ready for the day, or I begin to clamor for it - something like that, and so it slips away, so to speak.
Then again, there have been long bouts where it hasn't occurred like i'm describing for months at a time. It most definitely is altered consciousness, to a varying degree, but it's so refreshing while occurring, seens as natural as breathing itself, and uncalled for that I wanted to know if anyone could relate or possibly help to elucidate what circumstances might be at play in how that might be happening. Imagine, waking up in what you'd might attribute to having sat while one's mental faculties worked together harmoniously wrt meditative awareness of inner & outer phenomenon as non-dual and co-occurring.
I can't find anything in the literature about it, and i'd really like to know more about that if I could.
right, ok, I get it and I get it too as in I am familiar with that personally. I think it is an extension of the practice process. I will try to describe it:
1. Mental contents is the aggregate of all current sensation (that gets through the sensory change filters of the high speed 6-layer columnar cortex - which evolved to help us detect safety zone incursion or the presence of prey and and predators) and all current perceptive reflexes (which contain familiarity responses. Mental contents changes at ~6-10 frames per second.
2. Recent mental contents (normally 5-7 minutes worth of contents (smeared together) but shorter when frame stacking) is traditionally referred to as short term memory, and this larger body of (no longer active) neurons is not organized in frames, it is just the neurons themselves that were activated in frames of the recent experience.
Anyway, recently activated cortical neurons can be reactivated with fewer minisynapses (memory spine reactivations- from branched axons of stimulated pyramidal neurons) [my app reactivated cortical neurons upon signals at 8 spines minimum, but this number can be adjusted, as can the other variables if you work the app - more spines required provides less recognition or perceptive reflex and fewer spines can easily reflex too readily giving errors or misapprehensions]
Anyway, this is important, recent mental content (neurons) can be reactivated more easily than (the neurons of) memories that have not been recently activated.
3. So you could say active mental contents are more easily reactivated, and by putting things into Short term memory (STM) just by thinking or seeing etc. you are potentiating these mental contents to be reactivated. i.e. recent activation is a form of recycling.
So while following the breath, breathing sensations and ideation flow into STM, and become more easily re-attended, initially. This fights against the columnar suppression of sensory signals that do not change to some degree, but it also means that alternate sensory feeds about the breath become engaged, and the mind begins to follow the breath in different ways to stay in the moment.
4. This is not exactly standing wave repetition, but once it is engaged, it tends to carry itself forward (on the wings of STM), unless the mind is distracted by alarming intrusions, pains, or weariness.
5. Some oscillations or sensory activation sequences can be perceived as energy or energy pathways, or more precisely sensation trajectory patterns. (and bear in mind that trajectory following is at least 500 millions of years old in the brains (or neural knots) of moving creatures).
6. Mudras and asanas recycle physical sensation as well as (to a lesser extent) alter blood circulation, muscle activations, fascia movements etc. YOu can use mudras and asanas to help maintain concentrative awareness, but also it can detract from simple breath awareness.
7. Jhana sets in as soon as recycling takes over more than the work to begin following the breath. You may notice that it has a cadence or beat, not always the same, or convergent towards 6-10hz; but this is not recycle-able, only the noticing of it is recycled which is empty. Often this may be enhanced with eureka style understandings of issues that ramify through many contexts.
8. frame stacking follows jhana chemically (dopamine most likely) and that extends the duration of each mental content activation (more thalamo-cortical feedback cycles than the usual 3 for ordinary waking consciousness), but this effect also exhausts neurons reducing the 5 minute window of recycling awareness to a shorter period of time. In this way, very strong meditators can push through to very short STM windows that contain only the breath follow essentials and no trace of self other than that. This kind of ego loss is satori, not enlightenment but it is a wonderful thing that sometimes happens to various degrees.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Naturally imparting socially beneficial mental content is a very positive way to go, and since it is also embedded in the structure and function of body and brain over millions of years of evolution, it emerges naturally as well as under intelligently contrived guidance as well.
In this way metta meditation makes for a more loving society even when half of the crew are still struggling to sit for 2 minutes.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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one would meditate 10 years and then continue meditating to make every season better than the one before
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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I think a lot of this is due to the mind simply being relaxed.
Watch the breath with no influence. Simply allowing the autonomous breathing to function. Counting, duration/speed, depth, belly or chest, etc. just thrown all out. This way, there is attention yet essentially relaxed. The goal to do less rather than more.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: meditation prep [Re: Rahz]
#28503033 - 10/13/23 09:33 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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the goal is to be present, watching the breath lets the brain produce a content recycling feedback that enhances relaxation and insight.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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there might be no limit to how much better meditation can make things and how learned and accomplished you can get
better things come when we are quiet
everything depends on thought
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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yes, in a yin yang circulation, perceptions depend on perceptions, cradelling subsequent perceptions.
yoked to the central theme of meditation, mental activity reflects itself.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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wow i was just writing with redgreenvines and wow he made me so happy I have a much greater time now
happy monday!
and good trips!
def hit up that salvia
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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it is important to have a great time and a great day but it is also important to invest in the future become more free and reduce attatchment
--
I like the it happens to sick people point about dying
Edited by Ferdinando (10/16/23 08:12 AM)
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,127
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Yeah, RGVs is a legend! I just wish he could console me.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: meditation prep [Re: Pinkerton] 1
#28506538 - 10/16/23 08:53 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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self soothing is not something I do for you, but I did remind Ferdinando about the middle way, and he did the rest.
basically I did nothing at all
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RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,010
Loc: USA
Last seen: 3 minutes, 46 seconds
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I want someone to do my self-soothing for me. I'm just too lazy.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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there, there.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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