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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Uncle Ben's "Tek" 10
#28500223 - 10/11/23 02:33 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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All Uncle Ben's threads will be locked:
The "Uncle Ben's Tek" is not a viable tek. The Shroomery would like to encourage new mushroom cultivators to adopt beginner friendly teks with proven track records; Bottom line, we want everyone to grow and harvest mushrooms with the highest possible rate of success.
If you insist upon using UB Tek, you can find plenty of amateur growers willing to help you over at Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/unclebens/
Or use the search function to access previously discussed grows, which will also be locked as they pop back up.
The following post will outline why the Uncle Ben's "tek" is not endorsed, nor encouraged at The Shroomery:
Every new grower equates any result whatsoever with success. "I grew mushrooms, therefore x technique works", appears to be the sentiment. I would like to think that a simple, logical, reasonable explanation as to why this technique is less than desirable would be sufficient, so here it goes:
Grain packets inoculated with contaminated spore solution, filtered by micropore tape covering a hole opened by non-sterile scissors or blade, may in fact result in mushrooms; however, the gods of probably dictate that:
Quote:
You may reasonably expect a man to walk a tightrope safely for ten minutes; it would be unreasonable to do so without accident for two hundred years.
Volume will reveal flaws in any technique, or inoculum. Uncle Ben's "tek" was designed by and employed by people who do not understand the basic principles handed down to us by the wider scientific disciplines of microbiology, bacteriology, and mycology. Uncle Ben's tek is the bacteriologists equivalent of inoculating agar with spit, then streaking with an isopropyl soaked fingertip to streak for species identification.
This is why the wider world of commercial mushroom farming sees us like this:
 
Even if Uncle Ben's pouches were immaculately sterile, spore solution isn't. Spore syringes are not sterile, although some are admittedly cleaner than others. Even if an UB pouch has been inoculated with clean LC, or an agar wedge without having first cross contaminated the bag while opening it, you're still left with a bag filtered by micropore tape:
1. Whole cooked rice is a terrible choice for spawn;
2. Noobs looking for a hassle free approach to cult shouldn't be attempting a back door hack for spawn production;
3. Even if fruited straight from the rice pouch without use as spawn, fruited grains produce meager results at best, especially when inoculated with spore solution.
This is why changing the inoculum in an attempt to save the "tek" doesn't really change anything. You're still making some of the worst spawn possible, or the worst fruiting substrate possible; No matter how you tweak the variables you're left with garbage.
Especially if you're capable of producing pure culture on agar or liquid culture, you've just wasted it on a trash substrate housed in a garbage vessel.
The multispore solution approach can "work", but why would you bother?
Let's remember this "tek" is used to produce spawn, unlike PF tek, which is an encapsulated fruiting substrate. Contaminated spawn carries competitor organisms which are exponentially multiplied when introduced to a hydrated bulk substrate. Bacteria and mold love warm, humid, stagnant environments.
PF tek on the other hand is designed for septic spore solution, it's designed with failure in mind. The intention of the PF tek is to fruit directly from the inoculated substrate which is left intact, the granular rice flour keeps bacteria locked in place allowing for the possibility of a flush even when contaminated.
New cultivators simply do not have the requisite knowledge to appreciate the sheer simplistic genius of the PF tek. PF tek can be inoculated without the use of a still-air-box (SAB), or any consideration for aseptic technique, previous experience, expensive equipment, or much knowledge.
PF tek doesn't require a pressure cooker; PF tek is inexpensive; PF tek is noob friendly; PF tek is designed for use with septic spore syringes; PF tek is designed to be run cheaply in volume, and is the only acceptable, reasonable introduction tek for new growers exploring the cultivation of multiple active species, not just one, without the requirement for obtaining expensive equipment.
PF tek is the only appropriate entry level tek. There is no comparison, there's no contention, there's no competition.
Uncle bens fails on every single point of analysis; Failing to see this is either the result of incompetence, or intellectual dishonesty, probably both simultaneously, unless you're a freshly minted cultivator.
Rice pouches = spawn, spawn is at least an intermediate level cultivation practice, not an entry level skill. The use of spawn is by definition more advanced than fruiting from PF jars, therefore PF is far less complicated, and far more noob friendly.
Failure will be higher with UB when compared to PF, making PF the obvious choice for folks who want a hassle free, simplistic, inexpensive introduction to mush cult that produces results.
If producing your own BRF with a coffee grinder is too much of a pita, pre-milled brown rice flour is widely available and very inexpensive. Hydrated brown rice flour mixed with vermiculite is the superior comparative media.
Rice pouches produce a high rate of failure, largely due to the use of septic spore solution being introduced to a moist, still air environment. Spawn is inevitably mixed/disturbed at some point, whether it's directly after inoculation, during spawn-run, or just prior to spawning to bulk substrate.
Bacteria has limited motility without the presence of sufficient moisture, and when agitation/shaking has been removed from the process. Using too much spore solution will exacerbate bacterial infections due to increased bacterial motility throughout the medium; however, even when a single drop of MS-solution is used, the agitation of the rice prior to spawning blends the bacteria (or any other contaminant) globally throughout the packet, and then homogeneously throughout the bulk substrate at spawning. Bulk substrate is a water reservoir, contaminants love moist/humid environments.
It's worth mentioning that any disruption of the mycelial colony via breakage will weaken the organisms ability to stave off infections, this is why spawn will stall post shake: stalling is the result of contamination which has taken advantage of the weakened host. This also applies to the bulk substrate post spawning. Infected spawn will grow slowly, produce metabolites, Trichoderma, molds, and aggressive bacterial blooms.
It's at this stage when the new grower must decide which tubs to purchase, what hole configuration to employ with their tubs, what tubs to buy, what brand of coir to use, how much water is required, if pasteurization is required, etc, up to and including never ending threads asking the same questions ad nauseum. This is when I ask: have you ever heard of PF tek?
UB produces failure on a biblical scale. Loss should be factored into any pricing analysis, failure means: more spore solution required to produce fruit, more packets, time wasted, etc.
PF Tek, on the other hand is not spawn, it's a type of "all in one" fruiting substrate. The entire life cycle of the mushroom is played out in one rigid sterile container. The design prevents cross contamination, and provides adequate filtration; The substrate remains intact throughout the life cycle which limits the scope of inevitable infections by removing agitation of the substrate.
By maintaining the integrity of your media your colony will have a greater chance of producing fruit even when threatened by aggressive bacteria, this is simply not the case with UB. The granular structure of the BRF/vermiculite combo further restricts bacterial motility.
You don't know what you don't know. This is basic and self evident to anyone with an understanding of cultivation practices, the mushroom life cycle, and a basic understanding of contamination.
PF requires only a pot, water, brown rice flour, and vermiculite. The one time purchase of jars is just that, one time. These jars can be easily and truly rendered sterile, and can be reused hundreds of times. They're capable of maintaining that sterility, and are nearly fool proof.
New growers lack the requisite experience to identify problems with spawn. Spore solution to spawn of any kind will produce contamination, the same contamination will present itself in pf jars. UB packs restrict visibility, which makes identifying contamination difficult unless absolutely obvious, Trichoderma or some other mold would be an obvious indicator to some, while others confuse it with enzymatic bluing.
Contamination identification is an intermediate to advanced level cultivation skill. Even when bacterial, yeast, or mold contaminations are apparent to more advanced growers, the new grower will oftentimes argue as though their personal identity has been violated, then proceed to expand their rekt spawn.
PF is designed to allow maximum visibility when injecting spore solution down the face of the glass jars. This visibility allows the new grower to correlate outcome with growth patterns. They quickly learn which visual identifiers correspond to either outright failure or reduced fruiting performance without sacrificing downstream resources.
No shaking, no spawning, no requirement for ninja eyes. Uncle bens is a spawn production tek that at it's core is essentially a contamination expansion tek. This is why we do not endorse the use of Uncle bens here at the Shroomery, it has nothing to do with jealousy.
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jack_straw2208
Doctor



Registered: 02/12/07
Posts: 3,115
Loc: Earth
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Re: Uncle Bens open mic discussion [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 1
#28500233 - 10/11/23 02:44 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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What about stir fry recipes?
I am a big fan of water chestnuts and baby corn, it should be noted that ginger does not need to be skinned prior to grating.
Onion, garlic, green pepper, broccoli, mushrooms!
homemade teriyaki is a lot of fun too, if you have powdered ginger and garlic and soy sauce you might not even have to go to the store
-------------------- If you canβt tell what you desperately need, itβs probably sleep.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Off to a good start with temp troll bans.
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Kinoko314
Stranger Danger



Registered: 12/16/22
Posts: 1,521
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Re: Uncle Bens open mic discussion [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28500280 - 10/11/23 03:19 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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This was probably necessary. Every couple of weeks we go through this whole thing again and again.
I tried it once with 4 bags, nocced up with a LI. They all ended up quite colorful. It might have been my LI, it might have been the micropore tape filter, or maybe both.
Instant rice is still more expensive than grain, even if you don't count failing bags that go in the trash. Even the cleanest ones never canopy afaik. Has anyone ever seen a UB canopy?
People will keep trying it, and some will get a handful of shrooms, but that doesn't make it a good tek.
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Screwup
Googles your dumb questions


Registered: 01/27/22 
Posts: 6,293
Last seen: 2 hours, 47 minutes
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Re: Uncle Bens open mic discussion [Re: Kinoko314] 3
#28500292 - 10/11/23 03:29 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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UNCLE BENS IS SUPERIOR AND IM TIRED OF ACTING LIKE ITS NOT
-------------------- π
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π
π° πΏ Help US help YOU TEK 2023 Dehydrator TEK
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: Uncle Bens open mic discussion [Re: Kinoko314]
#28500300 - 10/11/23 03:37 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Yeah, it was either this or a blanket ban on all bullshit UB arguments, because that's what these threads turn into.
There's some genuine/sincere individuals who are new to the hobby and just don't know any better, but I have a hunch most of these threads are initiated by trolls.
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Screwup
Googles your dumb questions


Registered: 01/27/22 
Posts: 6,293
Last seen: 2 hours, 47 minutes
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Re: Uncle Bens open mic discussion [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 1
#28500324 - 10/11/23 03:53 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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A lot of the dumbass threads all around where people really dig in on their stupidity are trolls but somehow theyβll get legitimized lmao. I think weβre due for one any time now feels like itβs been quite a while.
THUUUGNAR I MISS YOU π
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π
π° πΏ Help US help YOU TEK 2023 Dehydrator TEK
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Jabeebaboo
Stranger


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Re: Uncle Bens open mic discussion [Re: Screwup] 1
#28500387 - 10/11/23 04:56 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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I'm finishing up with my first grow, which I did with dollar store Uncle Ben's. I started with 10 bags, 5 of them grew mold. 2 Trich, 2 Penicillin, and 1 with some nice Aspergillus. While I'm definitely not unhappy with what I'm getting, I could've gotten so much more with the same amount of effort. Also pretty certain what "clean" spawn I managed was still bacterial.
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Benson
The Kidd β


Registered: 09/29/20
Posts: 837
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Re: Uncle Bens open mic discussion [Re: Jabeebaboo]
#28500414 - 10/11/23 05:19 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
I will be locking all future Uncle bens threads on sight

Good move, thanks!
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CorteX_


Registered: 07/26/05
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Re: Uncle Bens open mic discussion [Re: Benson] 1
#28500419 - 10/11/23 05:21 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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I would love to see a slightly bacterial spore syringe vs both brf+verm and wbr side by side to compare how effective PF really is. UB sucks, but I consider WBR to be better than PF assuming you prep it yourself. It's actually fairly decent and it will cut colonization time in half. Used to do it all the time before I got my PC and has always worked well.
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B Traven
Stranger



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Re: Uncle Bens open mic discussion [Re: Jabeebaboo] 2
#28500423 - 10/11/23 05:25 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Wow, so all Uncle Ben's related discussion will pass through this thread, then we'll manage it here.
Sounds like....gate-keeping....
One other point: There are different standards of sterilization. Aseptic packaging for something like microwaveable rice only needs to keep it shelf-stable in undisturbed, anoxic conditions until someone throws it in the microwave. A lot of the mold spores and bacteria that we're trying to kill when sterilizing grain jars aren't harmful to humans in the form that we find them on raw grains. Exposing rice bags to oxygen, adding extra moisture, and then letting them sit around for a few weeks is not something they planned for at the USDA or the factory.
-------------------- Beware of advice- even this.
Edited by B Traven (10/11/23 05:27 PM)
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meta_mmxxii


Registered: 08/03/23
Posts: 598
Loc: PNW
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Re: Uncle Bens open mic discussion [Re: B Traven]
#28500447 - 10/11/23 05:46 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Thanks for creating this Stipe, I was getting a little fed up with this nonsense all over the board, good lookin!
-------------------- Lots of up-to-date Teks: Trusted Cultivators Teks The most comprehensive explanation of things I have read on the forums: Ultimate Tek Compendium Another very good read for new members: The Hitchhikers Guide π
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π
π° πΏ
Edited by meta_mmxxii (10/11/23 06:19 PM)
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BeefSupremeJr
Detritivore



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Re: Uncle Bens open mic discussion [Re: meta_mmxxii] 2
#28500467 - 10/11/23 06:00 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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as always ill throw my usual card in the hat:
its one of the most expensive grains to use as spawn. At $2.33 per half lb bag (walmart) that comes to $233 per 50 lbs. Feed stock wheat or oats is between 12-17$ per 50 lbs and is in every way superior to rice.
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RonnieRazz
Stranger
Registered: 09/28/23
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Hey there everyone quick question, this is my first time growing I put together a couple different teks and this one just happened to get done first I was wondering what your guys thoughts were on if this looks ready to transfer over to my fruiting chamber..?

Edited by RonnieRazz (10/11/23 06:37 PM)
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B Traven
Stranger



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Re: Uncle Bens open mic discussion [Re: RonnieRazz]
#28500551 - 10/11/23 06:53 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
RonnieRazz said: Hey there everyone quick question, this is my first time growing I put together a couple different teks and this one just happened to get done first I was wondering what your guys thoughts were on if this looks ready to transfer over to my fruiting chamber..?


The pics are blurry, and the bags don't offer much visibility in the first place.
But yeah, I'd say they're as ready as they'll ever be!
-------------------- Beware of advice- even this.
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mentalAstronaut
Stranger

Registered: 09/22/23
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Quote:
BeefSupremeJr said: as always ill throw my usual card in the hat:
its one of the most expensive grains to use as spawn. At $2.33 per half lb bag (walmart) that comes to $233 per 50 lbs. Feed stock wheat or oats is between 12-17$ per 50 lbs and is in every way superior to rice.
Which is all well and good if you have plans or a use for 50# of grain/oats/etc...Uncle Ben's is available in bags that only cost $2.33 and are readily available. I was tempted to do UBtek partly for that reason, but fortunately found enough threads/discussion like this one to show the error of that thinking.
I think threads like this that can show WHY UB is a bad idea are extremely beneficial instead of propagating it as a viable entry into the hobby. I think examples of other cost efficient/scale/successful/inconspicuous options presented in one place will help more people make an informed decision.
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B Traven
Stranger



Registered: 03/10/20
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Quote:
mentalAstronaut said:
Quote:
BeefSupremeJr said: as always ill throw my usual card in the hat:
its one of the most expensive grains to use as spawn. At $2.33 per half lb bag (walmart) that comes to $233 per 50 lbs. Feed stock wheat or oats is between 12-17$ per 50 lbs and is in every way superior to rice.
Which is all well and good if you have plans or a use for 50# of grain/oats/etc...Uncle Ben's is available in bags that only cost $2.33 and are readily available.
I buy grain in the bulk section of my local grocery store. Less than $2 a dry pound, so drastically cheaper than microwaveable rice. And I can buy as little as I like.
Any store that sells microwaveable rice probably also carries small boxes or bags of dry rice.
But that's all kind of beside the point, because you shouldn't really be messing with whole grain unless you have a pressure cooker, which is a substantial investment. So that brings us back to PF tek, and tracking down vermiculite and wide-mouth half-pint jars. And maybe a coffee grinder if you're prepping your own brown rice flour. Still a pretty cheap and quick trip to one or two stores, and it'll set you up for many successful PF cakes.
UBtek is the crack rock of cultivation, except that crack is more reliable.
-------------------- Beware of advice- even this.
Edited by B Traven (10/11/23 07:32 PM)
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AskingAlexis
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Re: Uncle Bens open mic discussion [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28500739 - 10/11/23 08:09 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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UB to coir just for fun and they look like shit. (I have legitimate teks going now too) I inoculated two bags, put them both in

to a little tub thing and they look like theyβre knotting. Surprised the hell outta me! Still plenty of time for things to go very wrong though.
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DrunkPunk
Not a drunk, not a punk.



Registered: 10/08/22
Posts: 59
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 2 months, 19 days
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Quote:
mentalAstronaut said: I think examples of other cost efficient/scale/successful/inconspicuous options presented in one place will help more people make an informed decision.
Speechless.
Queuing up Bod's Sticky.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24144021
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AskingAlexis
Stranger
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Re: Uncle Bens open mic discussion [Re: AskingAlexis]
#28500754 - 10/11/23 08:17 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
AskingAlexis said: UB to coir just for fun and they look like shit. (I have legitimate teks going now too) I inoculated two bags, put them both in

to a little tub thing and they look like theyβre knotting. Surprised the hell outta me! Still plenty of time for things to go very wrong though.
Iβm not sure why it keeps adding some of the pictures in between my words? Thatβs weird and I didnβt do that myself. They just uploaded that way. Lol
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