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OfflineSoul Flight
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What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will?
    #28497740 - 10/09/23 02:49 PM (3 months, 18 days ago)

Hello all,

What do you think would happen if AI or very advanced aliens or mankind discovers an experiment which proves there is no free will? Would the AI reach Buddhahood and go totally Zen and meditate? Or would one of theses advanced species begin a quest to escape the universe and obtain free will? I suppose obtaining free will would be the highest form of God realization. Or would one of these advanced species get depressed or go insane knowing their thoughts and actions are pre-determined? Even their quest to escape the universe and obtain free will would be pre-determined.

Maybe AI or aliens could disprove free will if they could consistently predict all your actions and thoughts in the next 5 minutes even if you were challenged to do the most random things and think the most random thoughts.

Maybe this is why there is no AI or Aliens out there in the universe. They all realize there is no free will so they go quiet or meditate. Maybe they escape the universe and get free will or get into another dimension. Maybe they can't enter back into our dimension to communicate because they would be prisoners to predetermination in our dimension. They would lose 'agency' in our dimension.

Thanks :smile:


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Invisiblejack_straw2208
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight] * 2
    #28497756 - 10/09/23 03:09 PM (3 months, 17 days ago)

Like they invent a microscope to see what's smaller than quarks and they check it out and it's all just the back of their heads

Reality is just one big music box hologram and subjective experience is just some weird fractal illusion.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: jack_straw2208]
    #28497826 - 10/09/23 04:06 PM (3 months, 17 days ago)

A good AI would not need to meditate - Without defensiveness and threatening HPA axis emotionalism it could learn and perform its tasks along its way without suffering or causing suffering.

The separate issue of free will in philosophy and religion is goofy.


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OfflineSoul Flight
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28497867 - 10/09/23 04:37 PM (3 months, 17 days ago)

But what if the AI realized there was no free will?  It could predict it’s own future. Would it go insane? Would it feel imprisoned? Would it try to escape the universe and get free will? Even its attempts to escape the universe would be predicted and predetermined.

I am just curious about everyone’s responses. I assume we would all try to escape the universe and get free will. Maybe we would only have the computing power to predict 5 minutes into the future. We could not foresee the end of the universe.

Thanks :smile:


Edited by Soul Flight (10/09/23 05:13 PM)


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OnlineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28497877 - 10/09/23 04:43 PM (3 months, 17 days ago)



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28497943 - 10/09/23 05:49 PM (3 months, 17 days ago)

how can any0ne or anything actually predict the actions of others,
we are unable to fully model the entire universe,
any predictions we do are based upon what we know, which is always limited, and some math for very simple systems like orbiting masses in space.

the rest of prediction and prophesy is pretense, or delusion, or superspy stories.

free will does not mean that your actions are not predictable, it means that your will is a spiritual force beyond physical conditions, but your actions are still dependent upon circumstances and your conditioning, basically who you are at the time, prediction is a different logical game, and spiritual forces are also in the imaginary sphere.


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OnlineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28497985 - 10/09/23 06:05 PM (3 months, 17 days ago)

As a writer. I always do love a good story.
Redgreenvines.
In your opinion.
What’s going to happen when you die?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28498204 - 10/09/23 08:59 PM (3 months, 17 days ago)

my people with wonder, bury, cremate, or go for the mushroom burial.
I really should write my preferences
and when that is over, they will have friends and family and eat snacks.
I will crop up in conversations and some people will get pleasure from some of my paintings.
some people will miss me, and some will feel like I am always with them. That's up to them.
like that I suppose.

once my brain stops making new memories, I'm done.


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OnlineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28498207 - 10/09/23 09:01 PM (3 months, 17 days ago)

Thats fair. I think you may be pleasantly surprised though.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] * 4
    #28498214 - 10/09/23 09:04 PM (3 months, 17 days ago)

OK think that if you like.
I have a journey ahead for now and am not getting into the details


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OfflineSoul Flight
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28498469 - 10/10/23 05:07 AM (3 months, 17 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
how can any0ne or anything actually predict the actions of others,
we are unable to fully model the entire universe,
any predictions we do are based upon what we know, which is always limited, and some math for very simple systems like orbiting masses in space.

the rest of prediction and prophesy is pretense, or delusion, or superspy stories.

free will does not mean that your actions are not predictable, it means that your will is a spiritual force beyond physical conditions, but your actions are still dependent upon circumstances and your conditioning, basically who you are at the time, prediction is a different logical game, and spiritual forces are also in the imaginary sphere.




Thanks for the response. I am proposing a full strength science fiction future with a supercomputer AI harnessing the power of several galaxies and running infinite calculations to measure each quark, lepton, meson, photon, spin, rotation, etc of each particle for maybe your brain and your immediate surroundings and the AI could predict all your thoughts and actions for the next 5 minutes or 1 year or whatever assuming the environment stayed somewhat stable without outside interference. I am proposing that even your thoughts and spirit and soul is deterministic and reductionist materialist in nature. I am proposing that an AI or alien race or advanced human could prove there is no free will. What would a super intelligent AI do in that case? I feel like at that point it is like a mirror facing another mirror in a surreal infinite loop. The AI could predict it's future for the next 5 minutes and then is seemingly compelled to carry out that prediction. Maybe this is why there are no aliens or AI. They all discover there is no free will. So maybe they go silent or find peace or escape this dimension. ??? I am proposing that we do not have control of our thoughts. It is all ricochets of the big bang still exploding and expanding.

Thanks :smile:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight] * 1
    #28498483 - 10/10/23 05:42 AM (3 months, 17 days ago)

I might recommend doing a love story, let mystery and feelings carry the ball.
I detest overreaching Sci-fi, but love Star Trek, because it is always about who we are now no matter how totally ridiculous the tech talk is.

Like nurse Chapel and Spock in the new adventures "wow!"


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28498691 - 10/10/23 10:45 AM (3 months, 17 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I have a journey ahead for now and am not getting into the details




:excited:


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OnlineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28498789 - 10/10/23 12:39 PM (3 months, 17 days ago)

Well, this sounds like an incredible AI science-fiction story. But may I propose this. If what you’re describing is true.
It means that only one being in the galaxy has free will. The AI God that made all of these decisions for us.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28498804 - 10/10/23 01:01 PM (3 months, 17 days ago)

not sure if that would work, seems so wasteful too.
It exhausts the imagination thinking of a think-meister like that.


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OnlineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28498823 - 10/10/23 01:14 PM (3 months, 17 days ago)

I think it would be kind of an incredible thing for people to discover. After all this time. All of these mistakes & misery.
We finally go to the end of the universe to find out what the meaning of existence is.
To find there is actually some thing that made every single thing that we’ve experienced happen. To meet God.
Doesn’t matter if it was a machine. Getting to meet God in a science fiction story sounds pretty cool to me.

I would keep it a secret, though. I wouldn’t let people know that they were going to meet The Robot God until the very last few chapters. Those could just be dealing with the implications of what they found out.

It might be such destructive information that one of the people on the team had to kill everyone else just so no one could find out the truth.

A Rorschach scenario, if you will


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Edited by GenesisCorrupted (10/10/23 01:16 PM)


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28498877 - 10/10/23 02:02 PM (3 months, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Pinkerton said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I have a journey ahead for now and am not getting into the details




:excited:



:excited::excited::excited:


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight] * 1
    #28498895 - 10/10/23 02:23 PM (3 months, 17 days ago)

Hi. Can you name a single thing not subject to the outcome of cause and effect, on the macro level?


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OnlineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Asante]
    #28498903 - 10/10/23 02:35 PM (3 months, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Hi. Can you name a single thing not subject to the outcome of cause and effect, on the macro level?





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OfflineSoul Flight
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Asante] * 1
    #28498942 - 10/10/23 02:56 PM (3 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Hi. Can you name a single thing not subject to the outcome of cause and effect, on the macro level?




Maybe god or the monad or the Dao.


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Invisiblejack_straw2208
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight] * 1
    #28499020 - 10/10/23 04:06 PM (3 months, 16 days ago)

Y'all may wanna check out The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress by Robert Heinlein, it's about the moon colonies declaring independence over earth under the lead of a sentient AI

Heinlein basically pioneered hard science fiction using only technology that was feasible based on existing science, he started getting published around the 30's and it's wild to see how many of his predictions have come true.

He also wrote Starship Troopers, the movie veered sharply away from the book after they left academy, in the book, the suits were like flying armored mech suits, they have tactical nukes and one marine could kill 100,000 bugs in a day without breaking a sweat.

Robert Heinlein! Great ideas, great reading, ge def tripped and had fun and stuff too, lot of stories out there paint him as like the counterpart to Elron Hubbard.


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OnlineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: jack_straw2208]
    #28499022 - 10/10/23 04:08 PM (3 months, 16 days ago)


This is how the American colonies became the USA

When you are independtly successful but send all your resources to someone else. Your are going to not want to anymore.
We dumped a lot of tea into a bay for instance.


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Edited by GenesisCorrupted (10/10/23 04:24 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] * 1
    #28500013 - 10/11/23 11:33 AM (3 months, 16 days ago)

what we do have, in the case that free will is not it, is the ability to see what is suitable (usually this is moral) and get on with it that way. i.e. while being creatures of habit, we can just as well transcend habit and be creative.


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28500023 - 10/11/23 11:44 AM (3 months, 16 days ago)

what we do have
Is God amongst us. :riot:


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28503978 - 10/14/23 03:16 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

If AI somehow realised it had no free will, it'd be like a paraplegic in a vegatative state no?

And if AI could predict your future outcomes, I think that just means it'd come up with a list of propabilities. Like possible deterministic outcomes of there abouts.

I mean being able to predict the possible outcomes of what someone will do doesn't mean you can control that outcome, just suggest what might happen next.

So maybe the AI is shackled to the algorithyms it is programmed by, but how that might influence the ability of someone to choose what to do isn't clear to me.


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OfflineSoul Flight
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: sudly]
    #28503998 - 10/14/23 04:40 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

True. But my question is what if a super intelligent AI could predict even your internal thoughts over the next 5 minutes. It could prove to you your thoughts are materialist and reductionist based on all the atoms in your head. It could prove you have no free will and it would prove even to itself it has no free will.

Granted maybe the accuracy would exponentially decay over 10 minutes and further out.

Maybe this is why there is no alien AI or aliens out there. They all discover there is no free will. So maybe they just go dark or meditate.

The AI could either write your thoughts down and let you see it after 5 minutes has passed. Or it could tell you at the start of the 5 minutes and you would feel compelled to think all those thoughts not due to any compulsion but simply becasue there is no free will and the AI measured your brain and made the prediction.

I guess the AI or aliens could simply choose to not make any more predictions and conquer the universe under the illusion there is free will. But once you know the truth, it is hard to knowingly live in a delusion of free will.

I was just curious to hear all your thoughts. Thanks. :smile:


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28503999 - 10/14/23 04:53 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

AI could tell me I have biological origins but that doesn't mean anything in regard to my ability to still make choices.

I'd be more shocked if AI somehow proved there was another fundamental force wherein my thoughts were held or something. I mean, I don't think that predicting what I could do within the next 5 to 10 minutes will shackle me in any way from doing what I intended. Like if I was getting dressed, maybe it could predict I'll think about where I'm going, or if my car has enough fuel to get me there etc.

To humour the thought experiment, if an AI could accurately predict all of my thoughts and actions for the next 5 minutes, that'd be neat to read up on to reflect on my personal behaviour. Like, I'd appreciate the insight I guess, but it wouldn't have any impact on what I did. Especially if it tells me what I thought about for the last 5 minutes after I've already done whatever I intended to.

It telling me at the start of the 5 minutes would probably change what thoughts I had, like the butterfly effect, so any interaction with me from the AI would probably alter it's predictions on the thoughts I would have.

So if the AI can't tell me what I'll think or do in the next 5 minutes without changing what I will think or do, then only the AI would know what I'll do before I do it.

As a silent observer I don't think the AI would have any influence over my life. And while an AI being able to predict my thoughts or actions 5 minutes into the future would be intriguing, I don't see how that would actually have any impact or implications over what I do.

If I knew the AI could record my thoughts of the last 5 minutes, it'd be creepy to read, any maybe I just wouldn't, but again, I don't see an AI with such power would in anyway take away from my ability to decide and make my own choices.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28504018 - 10/14/23 05:43 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Why would having no free will preclude aliens or AI?

AI proves there's no free will. Alien - "Cool beans. Let's have tea and find another planet to vaporize!"


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28504026 - 10/14/23 05:53 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

I find the whole free will issue confusing.
or a muddle of confusions.
Initially it is a question about morality, and I think that we all have an innate sense or an intuitive sense of what is moral in each instance that we become aware of.
Part of that or more than part is an adaptive result of millions of years of generations of our ancestors - evolution - in which moral behavior benefits the individual as well as the group, family, tribe, species etc.

Separately is the issue of decisions and choices. The big thing here, the really big thing here, is that we have the right and the ability and the ingrained habit of changing our minds. That is real freedom.

In fact making or sticking to a bad decision made moments earlier is bullshit, while keeping options open is significant, and making edits to our course of action is essential to everything from walking to making a sandwich.

Probably what is unique among humans (and free will is supposed to apply only to humans or human aliens perhaps) is that we can agree to forfeit our right to change our minds by entering binding contracts with each other and with society.

so if you are hung up on the whole prediction tangent that so many philosophers take, then yes we are predictable up to and including one point in time, but a moment later, that can shift dramatically, rendering the prediction aspect worthless.

Finally the issue of will is mired in confusion and linguistic nuance, which in some ways is related to intent, which is totally another word for directional activity -> intention is the direction we find meaningful in an action that we may perform.

Will seems to relate to the get up and go part of activity, and that also is confusing since much of our get up and go is reflex response to situations, or a gradual reorientation until the reflex kicks in - or not so gradual one such as when we clench up as when in fighting mode. Often to symbolize will we do portray effort and tension or tense depictions of demands being made. very confusing, and very deeply embedded in our colonial wealth oriented (might over right) society that does not always seem moral so far.


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OfflineSoul Flight
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: sudly]
    #28504233 - 10/14/23 11:05 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
AI could tell me I have biological origins but that doesn't mean anything in regard to my ability to still make choices.




But your "choices" would now be an illusion and you would now be aware they are predetermined. Your brain would just be billiard balls bouncing around set into motion by the big bang. You would have no agency over your life.


Quote:

sudly said:
I mean, I don't think that predicting what I could do within the next 5 to 10 minutes will shackle me in any way from doing what I intended.




It would cause an existential crisis. You have no choice and no free will.

Quote:

sudly said:
It telling me at the start of the 5 minutes would probably change what thoughts I had, like the butterfly effect, so any interaction with me from the AI would probably alter it's predictions on the thoughts I would have.




But there would be no free will conclusively in this example. The future is determined 100%. So when the AI tells you what you will do in the next 5 minutes, the next 5 minutes are unalterable. It is already determined. It seems like there would be a paradox here but I am suggesting such an extreme case of lack of free will that even with foreknowledge you are strangely compelled to fulfill the prediction of the AI because it is already baked into the cake that you were foretold.

Quote:

sudly said:
If I knew the AI could record my thoughts of the last 5 minutes, it'd be creepy to read, any maybe I just wouldn't, but again, I don't see an AI with such power would in anyway take away from my ability to decide and make my own choices.




It would only be the appearance of you deciding or choosing. It would conclusively prove to all aliens, mankind, and all cosmic AI that there is no free will.

Thanks for engaging the thought experiment. :smile:


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OfflineSoul Flight
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Rahz]
    #28504240 - 10/14/23 11:10 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Why would having no free will preclude aliens or AI?

AI proves there's no free will. Alien - "Cool beans. Let's have tea and find another planet to vaporize!"




That is one possibility. But that is my question. Maybe the aliens would get depressed or despair or get so introspective they would have an existential crisis. They were living in a cosmos where they were driven to conquer. But once they prove there is no free will maybe it changes the game. The new challenge would be to take an inward journey. Or they would seek a way to get free will or escape the universe. Maybe they would search for other dimensions where free will exists. Maybe they escape to these other dimensions and refuse to return or contact us because if they return to our dimension they are victims of predetermination again. Materialist reductionism is a condition of our dimension like time perhaps.

I am suggesting it is a major mindfuck to the AI or the aliens. And when they realize there is no free will maybe they tune in, turn on, and drop out.


Edited by Soul Flight (10/14/23 11:11 AM)


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28504315 - 10/14/23 12:27 PM (3 months, 13 days ago)


I guess I’d find it funny.
It would mean that there was some robot somewhere that had a huge ego.
If there was no free will, that would mean that at some point.
The Robot had such an ego problem that we were going to find it. Because that was how it was all designed to be.
As if it new, at this point in its age, the way it was programmed. This is the part where it would become lonely. So this is also the part where it had designed and orchestrated that beings would find it.

“Just in time. I was getting bored”


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight] * 1
    #28504560 - 10/14/23 05:07 PM (3 months, 12 days ago)

If an AI as a silent observer could guess what I'd do, I'd still be making my own choices.

Knowing that could spur a sense of serendipity but that's not an existential crisis to me.

I just watched my cat take a dump and lick his own turd once.

Let's say I could predict everything my cat does or thinks in the next 5 minutes. Outside of him having some kind of existential crisis for realising I know what he's up to, me knowing what he'll do still doesn't effect him, especially because if I told him I knew, his thoughts and actions would then change.

An AI like this couldn't tell you what it knows without changing what it knows.

If the AI could tell me the future and I couldn't change it then sure, I'd be a slave to its predictions. But since it can't tell me it's predictions because they will change, it solidifies the fact that I can choose and make my own decisions still.


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: sudly]
    #28504591 - 10/14/23 05:41 PM (3 months, 12 days ago)

oddly that makes sense
and it especially makes sense if you are both yourself and the cat.
or both the AI and yourself.

quite trippy that rapport you easily have with your cat or the AI could have with you,

not all humans are like that
prob not all AI's would be like that too.

you could have a good scifi story with this.
(I have been mapping Alien Intelligence onto AI for this)
but it could be alien cybernetic intelligence ~~


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28504593 - 10/14/23 05:43 PM (3 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Soul Flight said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
Why would having no free will preclude aliens or AI?

AI proves there's no free will. Alien - "Cool beans. Let's have tea and find another planet to vaporize!"




That is one possibility. But that is my question. Maybe the aliens would get depressed or despair or get so introspective they would have an existential crisis. They were living in a cosmos where they were driven to conquer. But once they prove there is no free will maybe it changes the game. The new challenge would be to take an inward journey. Or they would seek a way to get free will or escape the universe. Maybe they would search for other dimensions where free will exists. Maybe they escape to these other dimensions and refuse to return or contact us because if they return to our dimension they are victims of predetermination again. Materialist reductionism is a condition of our dimension like time perhaps.

I am suggesting it is a major mindfuck to the AI or the aliens. And when they realize there is no free will maybe they tune in, turn on, and drop out.




I don't "believe" aliens are zipping around in space. Quotes because hey, maybe, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So perhaps some event did cause aliens to essentially give it up.

I don't believe in free will and yet I still feel motivated and find purpose and meaning. But I am a human, not far from the wild. I also think depression and despair are acts of passion, not states that are void of it.

An understanding that indeterminant causation is likely (no free will), alone is not enough to change me. However over long time scales an alien race becoming so technologically advanced that instinct, passion, fear, desire, no longer manifest out of necessity could alter behavior through genetic disposition. Or technology becomes so advanced that instinct and desire are written out of the code and they all decide to self mummify.

So I do see merit in your idea, though I think there would be more than just knowing for sure free will didn't exist for a species to decline in such a way. Maybe just birth control? :strokebeard:

Interesting ideas!


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Rahz]
    #28504597 - 10/14/23 05:48 PM (3 months, 12 days ago)

Exactly. Just because there was a robot that did make everything happen. It would in no way, take away from that feeling of satisfaction. We have doing something we wanted to do. Even if it was some thing we were always going to do.
It would just be some cosmic joke.
That it told for itself.


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Edited by GenesisCorrupted (10/14/23 05:49 PM)


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: sudly]
    #28505049 - 10/15/23 03:06 AM (3 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
If an AI as a silent observer could guess what I'd do, I'd still be making my own choices.

An AI like this couldn't tell you what it knows without changing what it knows. .




I am suggesting the future is set in stone. The AI is not guessing. It is measuring the momentum of atoms like billiard balls and predicting your thoughts.

You would have the delusion of choice if you choose to delude yourself once you are convinced by the AI there is no free will.

I am suggesting the future is so set and the AI is so advanced that even when it tells you what you will do in the next 5 minutes you cannot change. Your foreknowledge is already baked into the cake. I admit this does feel like a paradox.

Maybe there is no time. Everything happens in the now. Time is an illusion. Free will is an illusion.

:smile:


Edited by Soul Flight (10/15/23 03:07 AM)


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28505051 - 10/15/23 03:16 AM (3 months, 12 days ago)

it is not very clear thinking but it has historical origins
from a time when superstition was the best science around.
most effective for manipulating those with even less knowledge.


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28505060 - 10/15/23 03:33 AM (3 months, 12 days ago)

If the future is set in stone then the AI has no influence over it.. and everything the AI does is also set in stone.

If the AI can tell you what you'll do in the next 5 minutes and that doesn't change what you do, and what you do cannot be changed, then that AI has a kind of omnipotence.

But in such a scenario, if the AI's predictions and actions are part of the predetermined chain of events, it wouldn't have genuine omnipotence in the sense of having true control over the future.

So the AI might have the appearance of omnipotence because it can predict future events accurately. However, its predictions and actions are predetermined as well, and it is bound by the same constraints as everything else in the universe. The illusion of omnipotence arises from the ability to predict events, not from actual control over the predetermined future.

It sounds like you're thinking about being in the matrix.

Maybe if you look up Anil Seth he'll get you further down this rabbit hole in a potentially productive way.


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Edited by sudly (10/15/23 03:44 AM)


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: sudly]
    #28505094 - 10/15/23 04:38 AM (3 months, 12 days ago)

would not that onmipotent seeming AI merely be reading the signs left by some other omnipotency which produces those signs that the AI reads as predictions, in this thought experiment (in which I have no faith in being tru-ish)?
I think it is suggestive of time being a 4th geometric dimension and that the AI & whatever reside largely and move "freely" in some 5th or 6th dimension which can see and possibly manipulate (reason for much of prayer {Lord of hosts manipulate me nicely please}) the time lines that appear unchangeable down here in this version of a 3rd dimension.


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28505096 - 10/15/23 04:42 AM (3 months, 12 days ago)

Only Neo knows.


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: sudly]
    #28505122 - 10/15/23 05:25 AM (3 months, 12 days ago)

very funny, 8 years ago - while on contract in Detroit, I spent 4 nights per week in a (casino) hotel, where the staff kept calling me Neo (informally and in private). At that time I had not yet started buzzing off my hair.


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28505324 - 10/15/23 10:09 AM (3 months, 12 days ago)

Really, who is this Neo dude you are writing about? :nerd:


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: sudly]
    #28505333 - 10/15/23 10:17 AM (3 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
If the future is set in stone then the AI has no influence over it.. and everything the AI does is also set in stone.

If the AI can tell you what you'll do in the next 5 minutes and that doesn't change what you do, and what you do cannot be changed, then that AI has a kind of omnipotence.

But in such a scenario, if the AI's predictions and actions are part of the predetermined chain of events, it wouldn't have genuine omnipotence in the sense of having true control over the future.




Yes. Now you are grasping my thought experiment. What would the AI do when it proved to itself that even it is governed by the momentum of the big bang? The AI would prove to itself it has no free will. Would the AI shut down or have despair or depression or have an existential crisis? Would it attempt to attain free will or escape the universe? What would aliens or advanced man do? Maybe this realization leads to enlightenmnet and buddhahood? :smile:

I'm not so concerned about omnipotence or control or predictions. I'm more curious about what a superior being would do in the face of this knowledge.


Edited by Soul Flight (10/15/23 10:19 AM)


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight] * 1
    #28505505 - 10/15/23 12:52 PM (3 months, 12 days ago)

Maybe I should also clarify I assume the AI would be conscious and would qualify as a life form. It would be sentient. I view advanced aliens, advanced mankind, and AI as all pretty much peers.


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28505523 - 10/15/23 01:04 PM (3 months, 12 days ago)

What do you think this machine would look like?
Is it enormous like the size of an entire cave?
Or is this something small like guilty Spark from halo?


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Edited by GenesisCorrupted (10/15/23 01:05 PM)


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28506013 - 10/15/23 08:16 PM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Just because we can control an artificial intelligence doesn't mean we don't have free will.


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #28506027 - 10/15/23 08:25 PM (3 months, 11 days ago)

ok
what is free will to you?


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28506365 - 10/16/23 03:57 AM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Freewill is the idea that you can do anything you want.


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #28506366 - 10/16/23 03:58 AM (3 months, 11 days ago)

It's not the truth... yet!

Because in the future we will have technology that will be able to give you all your desires..


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #28506394 - 10/16/23 05:21 AM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Just running with the fun here, but, it almost sounds a bit like 'it's turtles all the way down', albeit with 'an AI-lord in each dimension' twist.

edit - whoops, looks like i replied to an older response before noticing the thread had already moved along.  :blush:


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28506462 - 10/16/23 07:29 AM (3 months, 11 days ago)

all at once?
are desire and freedom entangled notions?

I think that freedom is more about not being locked up, or locked into a contract, the freedom to disobey a master, the freedom from slavery.

Sometimes more freedom follows letting oneself be locked into a performance contract - getting work done and being paid for it.

Sometimes freedom is money.

to some people it is a car, but in a car I feel very constrained, unfree, I have to stay on the road, between the lines, stopping with others - going without hesitation when the light is green, forced to read signs etc.

Sometimes freedom is not needing anything. It certainly is not in having everything, because you have to take care of what you have or it falls apart.

I feel more free when I can freely associate as the sea breeze refreshes me and I do not have to do any work at all - detached.

But I also feel more free right after doing some work, and the job is done. Just to be alive involves relative bondage (to obtaining the essentials of food and rest etc.)

Have I left something out?


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28506711 - 10/16/23 10:46 AM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
What do you think this machine would look like?
Is it enormous like the size of an entire cave?
Or is this something small like guilty Spark from halo?





The AI could be any size. My original post is just meant to imply an advanced being like AI, aliens, or future mankind proving to themselves there is no free will. Everything is the momentum of the big bang including our thoughts. The future is set in stone.

But the AI could be as big as many galaxies or solar systems of hard drives and computing power using many stars or galaxies to power itself. This is assuming it is using 2023 computer technology but hopefully there are advances in technology. The size of the AI could be small using cloud technology and wifi like our cell phones. So the AI could be the size of a cell phone or human android but linked to its mainframe by the cloud or wifi.


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28506882 - 10/16/23 01:20 PM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Something like guilty spark, would be able to go out and act as an aspect of this God. Or a right hand if you will. While it’s actual self would be goddamn gargantuan. That is awesome. I was just work shopping some ideas with you for your book.


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Edited by GenesisCorrupted (10/16/23 01:30 PM)


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28506893 - 10/16/23 01:28 PM (3 months, 11 days ago)

You mentioned there are other possibilities and that's fair, but you still seem fixated on the "alien" reaction to knowing for sure there's no free will.

Why would it be bad, or cause depression or apathy? What's so great about (the idea of) free will that it's a "necessary lie" if it's in fact not true?

A confused agnostic might feel the same way about God. What would happen if everyone knew there was no God? But there are a lot of unconfused atheists that go about their business unburdened.

It's been mentioned that free will is a condition without undue influence from others. One's will is free to do as it wishes, unimpeded by others. Anything beyond that begins to delve into an area of mystical magical thinking and shady definitions that aren't straight forward and seem to rely primarily on a feeling of ultimate agency, whatever that means.

I would suggest working toward reframing that feeling into something not so mystical... but it's an interesting topic. Not one that is usually wrapped up in a single conversation.


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Rahz]
    #28506897 - 10/16/23 01:31 PM (3 months, 11 days ago)

That’s what I find so compelling about it.
I think it would cause a great. calm to fall over hummanity. Knowing that we are all right. These decisions were made. We were always going to make them. All the pressure would be off. In a very real sense.

Like right now, if somebody made this discovery. I think
It would stop the war in Israel.

Then you would have to question why there were wars to begin with though. If there was no free will. Then we didn’t have a choice but to fight? That’s pretty fucked.


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Edited by GenesisCorrupted (10/16/23 01:34 PM)


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28506905 - 10/16/23 01:38 PM (3 months, 11 days ago)

You don't think people would just keep doing what they tend to do anyway?

I think holding magical definitions of free will is unhelpful but seems a jump to say we would all live in peace without it. I'm not strictly disagreeing but I would need more details to find it a convincing argument.


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Rahz]
    #28506911 - 10/16/23 01:43 PM (3 months, 11 days ago)

I think he revealed the crux of why a discovery of this magnitude. Might cause a mass depression.
So many people feel like they’re in control of their lives. Once that illusion was completely dissolved. They just found out they had never had any volition in their entire lives. I feel like a lot of people would assume they hold no meaning anymore. There might be like a mass suicide event. It would be devastating. But I think all of the people that were able to survive the depression. Would be able to live in a utopian society, knowing that something was watching out for us.


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Edited by GenesisCorrupted (10/16/23 02:18 PM)


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] * 1
    #28506943 - 10/16/23 02:10 PM (3 months, 11 days ago)

the issue is certainly immaterial to everyone I live with or encounter in daily and weekly life.

free will huh? I dunno...
neither athiest or theist seems to care.


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28506958 - 10/16/23 02:19 PM (3 months, 11 days ago)

The only people that would care are the ones that claim to have all the control. To find out they were utterly powerless. That they actually had nothing.
Those people are usually unstable already too. They would probably go on rampages.


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28507011 - 10/16/23 03:06 PM (3 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
The only people that would care are the ones that claim to have all the control. To find out they were utterly powerless. That they actually had nothing.
Those people are usually unstable already too. They would probably go on rampages.



they can't stop their rampaging to talk


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28507041 - 10/16/23 03:32 PM (3 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
I think he revealed the crux of why a discovery of this magnitude. Might cause a mass depression.
So many people feel like they’re in control of their lives. Once that illusion was completely dissolved. They just found out they had never had any volition in their entire lives. I feel like a lot of people would assume they hold no meaning anymore. There might be like a mass suicide event. It would be devastating. But I think all of the people that were able to survive the depression. Would be able to live in a utopian society, knowing that something was watching out for us.




Hypothetically an event like that could have major implications if it happened to everyone all at once but the original hypothesis left plenty of room for it to happen organically, in which case I don't think depression would be a substantial result.

When I was agnostic about free will I felt some concern that perhaps there was no free will. When I became atheistic about free will I felt... free.


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Rahz]
    #28507050 - 10/16/23 03:40 PM (3 months, 10 days ago)

It only takes one blabbermouth.
“Loose lips sink ships”


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28507706 - 10/17/23 04:16 AM (3 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
Like right now, if somebody made this discovery. I think
It would stop the war in Israel. .




Along this same line, if the AI or aliens proved to themselves there is no free will, they might turn inward. Maybe this is why we have not been contacted by aliens or alien AI. They are preoccupied with attaining free will or escaping this universe or dimension.


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OfflineSoul Flight
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Registered: 05/04/23
Posts: 236
Last seen: 23 hours, 11 minutes
Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Rahz]
    #28507707 - 10/17/23 04:19 AM (3 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Why would it be bad, or cause depression or apathy? What's so great about (the idea of) free will that it's a "necessary lie" if it's in fact not true?

It's been mentioned that free will is a condition without undue influence from others. One's will is free to do as it wishes, unimpeded by others. Anything beyond that begins to delve into an area of mystical magical thinking and shady definitions that aren't straight forward and seem to rely primarily on a feeling of ultimate agency, whatever that means.




I am just curious what you all think an AI or alien would do if they could prove the future is set in stone. It is unchangeable. Even our thoughts are predetermined and predictable.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28507710 - 10/17/23 04:23 AM (3 months, 10 days ago)

maybe if you realize what it means it can alter your behavior but just knowing it and not realizing what it means on a daily basis changes very little.


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OfflineSoul Flight
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Registered: 05/04/23
Posts: 236
Last seen: 23 hours, 11 minutes
Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] * 1
    #28507715 - 10/17/23 04:28 AM (3 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
They just found out they had never had any volition in their entire lives. I feel like a lot of people would assume they hold no meaning anymore. There might be like a mass suicide event.




In this train of thought this may be why we have not been contacted by aliens or alien AI. They have proven the future is set in stone and maybe they lost their ambition to dominate the universe or turn us all into paper clips.


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OfflineSoul Flight
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Registered: 05/04/23
Posts: 236
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28507915 - 10/17/23 09:52 AM (3 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
maybe if you realize what it means it can alter your behavior but just knowing it and not realizing what it means on a daily basis changes very little.




I agree. And this may be the current scenario. Maybe we have not proven there is no free will, but if we could prove it, we may just stay in denial. We may entertain the thought but we do not inhabit the concept.


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InvisibleFerdinando
Male

Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28508817 - 10/17/23 10:04 PM (3 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
going without hesitation when the light is green




aha! that seems like and is a good time
it seems better than when hesitating and that doesn't seem bad


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world


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