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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28505096 - 10/15/23 04:42 AM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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Only Neo knows.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: sudly]
#28505122 - 10/15/23 05:25 AM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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very funny, 8 years ago - while on contract in Detroit, I spent 4 nights per week in a (casino) hotel, where the staff kept calling me Neo (informally and in private). At that time I had not yet started buzzing off my hair.
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28505324 - 10/15/23 10:09 AM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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Really, who is this Neo dude you are writing about?
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Soul Flight
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: sudly]
#28505333 - 10/15/23 10:17 AM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: If the future is set in stone then the AI has no influence over it.. and everything the AI does is also set in stone.
If the AI can tell you what you'll do in the next 5 minutes and that doesn't change what you do, and what you do cannot be changed, then that AI has a kind of omnipotence.
But in such a scenario, if the AI's predictions and actions are part of the predetermined chain of events, it wouldn't have genuine omnipotence in the sense of having true control over the future.
Yes. Now you are grasping my thought experiment. What would the AI do when it proved to itself that even it is governed by the momentum of the big bang? The AI would prove to itself it has no free will. Would the AI shut down or have despair or depression or have an existential crisis? Would it attempt to attain free will or escape the universe? What would aliens or advanced man do? Maybe this realization leads to enlightenmnet and buddhahood? 
I'm not so concerned about omnipotence or control or predictions. I'm more curious about what a superior being would do in the face of this knowledge.
Edited by Soul Flight (10/15/23 10:19 AM)
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Soul Flight
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight] 1
#28505505 - 10/15/23 12:52 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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Maybe I should also clarify I assume the AI would be conscious and would qualify as a life form. It would be sentient. I view advanced aliens, advanced mankind, and AI as all pretty much peers.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
#28505523 - 10/15/23 01:04 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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What do you think this machine would look like? Is it enormous like the size of an entire cave? Or is this something small like guilty Spark from halo?
Edited by GenesisCorrupted (10/15/23 01:05 PM)
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BrendanFlock
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28506013 - 10/15/23 08:16 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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Just because we can control an artificial intelligence doesn't mean we don't have free will.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: BrendanFlock] 1
#28506027 - 10/15/23 08:25 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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ok what is free will to you?
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BrendanFlock
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28506365 - 10/16/23 03:57 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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Freewill is the idea that you can do anything you want.
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BrendanFlock
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#28506366 - 10/16/23 03:58 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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It's not the truth... yet!
Because in the future we will have technology that will be able to give you all your desires..
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The Blind Ass
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#28506394 - 10/16/23 05:21 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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Just running with the fun here, but, it almost sounds a bit like 'it's turtles all the way down', albeit with 'an AI-lord in each dimension' twist.
edit - whoops, looks like i replied to an older response before noticing the thread had already moved along.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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redgreenvines
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: The Blind Ass]
#28506462 - 10/16/23 07:29 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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all at once? are desire and freedom entangled notions?
I think that freedom is more about not being locked up, or locked into a contract, the freedom to disobey a master, the freedom from slavery.
Sometimes more freedom follows letting oneself be locked into a performance contract - getting work done and being paid for it.
Sometimes freedom is money.
to some people it is a car, but in a car I feel very constrained, unfree, I have to stay on the road, between the lines, stopping with others - going without hesitation when the light is green, forced to read signs etc.
Sometimes freedom is not needing anything. It certainly is not in having everything, because you have to take care of what you have or it falls apart.
I feel more free when I can freely associate as the sea breeze refreshes me and I do not have to do any work at all - detached.
But I also feel more free right after doing some work, and the job is done. Just to be alive involves relative bondage (to obtaining the essentials of food and rest etc.)
Have I left something out?
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Soul Flight
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28506711 - 10/16/23 10:46 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: What do you think this machine would look like? Is it enormous like the size of an entire cave? Or is this something small like guilty Spark from halo?
The AI could be any size. My original post is just meant to imply an advanced being like AI, aliens, or future mankind proving to themselves there is no free will. Everything is the momentum of the big bang including our thoughts. The future is set in stone.
But the AI could be as big as many galaxies or solar systems of hard drives and computing power using many stars or galaxies to power itself. This is assuming it is using 2023 computer technology but hopefully there are advances in technology. The size of the AI could be small using cloud technology and wifi like our cell phones. So the AI could be the size of a cell phone or human android but linked to its mainframe by the cloud or wifi.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
#28506882 - 10/16/23 01:20 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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Something like guilty spark, would be able to go out and act as an aspect of this God. Or a right hand if you will. While it’s actual self would be goddamn gargantuan. That is awesome. I was just work shopping some ideas with you for your book.
Edited by GenesisCorrupted (10/16/23 01:30 PM)
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
#28506893 - 10/16/23 01:28 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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You mentioned there are other possibilities and that's fair, but you still seem fixated on the "alien" reaction to knowing for sure there's no free will.
Why would it be bad, or cause depression or apathy? What's so great about (the idea of) free will that it's a "necessary lie" if it's in fact not true?
A confused agnostic might feel the same way about God. What would happen if everyone knew there was no God? But there are a lot of unconfused atheists that go about their business unburdened.
It's been mentioned that free will is a condition without undue influence from others. One's will is free to do as it wishes, unimpeded by others. Anything beyond that begins to delve into an area of mystical magical thinking and shady definitions that aren't straight forward and seem to rely primarily on a feeling of ultimate agency, whatever that means.
I would suggest working toward reframing that feeling into something not so mystical... but it's an interesting topic. Not one that is usually wrapped up in a single conversation.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Rahz]
#28506897 - 10/16/23 01:31 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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That’s what I find so compelling about it. I think it would cause a great. calm to fall over hummanity. Knowing that we are all right. These decisions were made. We were always going to make them. All the pressure would be off. In a very real sense.
Like right now, if somebody made this discovery. I think It would stop the war in Israel.
Then you would have to question why there were wars to begin with though. If there was no free will. Then we didn’t have a choice but to fight? That’s pretty fucked.
Edited by GenesisCorrupted (10/16/23 01:34 PM)
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28506905 - 10/16/23 01:38 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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You don't think people would just keep doing what they tend to do anyway?
I think holding magical definitions of free will is unhelpful but seems a jump to say we would all live in peace without it. I'm not strictly disagreeing but I would need more details to find it a convincing argument.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Rahz]
#28506911 - 10/16/23 01:43 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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I think he revealed the crux of why a discovery of this magnitude. Might cause a mass depression. So many people feel like they’re in control of their lives. Once that illusion was completely dissolved. They just found out they had never had any volition in their entire lives. I feel like a lot of people would assume they hold no meaning anymore. There might be like a mass suicide event. It would be devastating. But I think all of the people that were able to survive the depression. Would be able to live in a utopian society, knowing that something was watching out for us.
Edited by GenesisCorrupted (10/16/23 02:18 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] 1
#28506943 - 10/16/23 02:10 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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the issue is certainly immaterial to everyone I live with or encounter in daily and weekly life.
free will huh? I dunno... neither athiest or theist seems to care.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28506958 - 10/16/23 02:19 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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The only people that would care are the ones that claim to have all the control. To find out they were utterly powerless. That they actually had nothing. Those people are usually unstable already too. They would probably go on rampages.
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